Magic Groups from DND VS Dresden Files White Council

[Xar Zarath]

In the Dresden Files, the pre-eminent group of Wizards are the White Council. Officially they are *the* Wizards in the Dresdenverse, with members such as Ebenezar the Blackstaff, the Merlin Arthur Langtry (who's good at wards) as well as others like Listen To Wind and the Gatekeeper.

With all of this in mind, which group or council of mages could conceivably take them on? FR's Red Wizards of Thay? Greyhawk's Council of Eight? Or even the Red/Black/White Robes of Wizardry?

Which do you think could take on the White Council and win?

For the purposes of this battle royale, consider that the White Council would only consist of the Senior Members and the Wardens only.

[Keltest]

The White Council has machine guns. And not even just in the snarky kind of way, its repeatedly stated by Dresden to be a resource various groups call on. Given that, I'm not sure any D&D wizardly type group could take them on.

[Khedrac]

I've not played wither of the RPGs but the Dresdenverse wizards are not the wizards of the D&D RPG - they are the wizards of Ars Magica or White Wolf's Mage: The Ascension - they do not compete on the same level as non-wizards, something that D&D wizards do, even if it's absurdly one-sided.

[Eurus]

I think they're on a similar general level? D&D wizards and Dresden wizards can both dish out absurd amounts of destruction, consort with powerful extraplanar beings, create powerful magic items, manipulate the mundanes... it's going to depend on a lot of specific interactions, like "does Wind Wall work on machine guns", "what's the DC of a Death Curse", "can you use Planar Binding something out of the Nevernever"...

One edge the D&D wizards might have is their frankly insane mobility, being able to teleport anywhere in the world or shift to another plane of existence in a matter of seconds with no prep or infrastructure in place is something that I don't recall seeing human wizards in the Dresden world pulling off... but I wouldn't be surprised if the Dresden wizards could do something comparable. On the other hand, Dresden wizards seem to get some kind of passive precognition whereas D&D wizards have to actively divine for specific information.

[The Glyphstone]

Point-to-point teleportation is definitely something D&D wizards have in their favor - Harry is amazed when

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Marcone/Namshiel

Is just casually bouncing around to evade the Titan in their fight, and mentions it as an insanely advanced and difficult spell to pull off. Wards probably help keep that sort of thing out of strongholds like Edinburgh, but beyond that the WC will be very vulnerable to magical ambush tactics.

[GloatingSwine]

I've not played wither of the RPGs but the Dresdenverse wizards are not the wizards of the D&D RPG - they are the wizards of Ars Magica or White Wolf's Mage: The Ascension - they do not compete on the same level as non-wizards, something that D&D wizards do, even if it's absurdly one-sided.

They mostly do though.

Perspectives on what Dresdenverse wizards can do might be skewed by the fact that we mostly follow Harry who is notably a freak of nature to start with in terms of raw magical strength and draws on a lot of resources outside of normal wizarding. There are probably only a handful of wizards worldwide who operate at similar levels.

And even then many of the people around Harry are normal humans who reguarly have something to offer that magic can't replicate.

Most D&D style magical organisations have two significant advantages over the White Council. One is that there are just *more of them* and the other is that they can use their magic to lethal effect without consequences and a Dresdenverse wizard other than Ebenezer cannot.

[Eldan]

The White Council has machine guns. And not even just in the snarky kind of way, its repeatedly stated by Dresden to be a resource various groups call on. Given that, I'm not sure any D&D wizardly type group could take them on.

Edition dependent. 3rd edition Wizard? Easy. Ironguard makes you immune to all metal weaponry, for example. Or you can be invisible, or ethereal, or astral projecting. 24 hours a day, for a whigh level wizard.

I think they're on a similar general level? D&D wizards and Dresden wizards can both dish out absurd amounts of destruction, consort with powerful extraplanar beings, create powerful magic items, manipulate the mundanes... it's going to depend on a lot of specific interactions, like "does Wind Wall work on machine guns", "what's the DC of a Death Curse", "can you use Planar Binding something out of the Nevernever"...

One edge the D&D wizards might have is their frankly insane mobility, being able to teleport anywhere in the world or shift to another plane of existence in a matter of seconds with no prep or infrastructure in place is something that I don't recall seeing human wizards in the Dresden world pulling off... but I wouldn't be surprised if the Dresden wizards could do something comparable. On the other hand, Dresden wizards seem to get some kind of passive precognition whereas D&D wizards have to actively divine for specific information.

Plus violating the laws of magic is for the most part kind of hard in Dresden Files, while D&D wizards generally can resurrect the dead and control minds rather easily. Even time travel is quite possible (Teleport through time).

[tomandtish]

Plus violating the laws of magic is for the most part kind of hard in Dresden Files, while D&D wizards generally can resurrect the dead and control minds rather easily. Even time travel is quite possible (Teleport through time).

it's not HARD as such to violate the laws. One thing we see a fair amount of is people without any formal training who figured out HOW to do something but don't know the consequences. Molly Carpenter is a prime example. Pulled off a veil first time she ever did anything, and was able to alter personalities of two of her friends (admittedly not well) with no training at all.

The consequences are where the rub comes in.

1) You have a group of TRAINED wizards out there who as soon as they learn about you are going to catch and kill you. No appeal and exceptions pretty much involve another wizard being willing to vouch for you with their life.

2) It's canon that doing things that violate the laws actually change you for the worse. When Harry soul gazed Molly he saw that she was almost always going to be a person of power, and at least one of those scared the crap out of him.

Harry's acknowledged that he's capable of violating most of the laws (he isn't sure about time travel). And the council does keep one designated member who is allowed to violate the laws as they see fit.

[Eldan]

Okay, yeah, mind control is easy. But so far, we at least haven't seen any time travel. It's an advantage D&D can have, though it's a bit setting dependent whether time travel immediately sends all manner of monsters nad time guardians after you.

[Batcathat]

Okay, yeah, mind control is easy. But so far, we at least haven't seen any time travel. It's an advantage D&D can have, though it's a bit setting dependent whether time travel immediately sends all manner of monsters nad time guardians after you.

I think it's at least implied (maybe outright said, I'm not really sure) that the original Merlin used time-travel, when building a certain something. That said, it's obviously very rare at most, so the D&D side probably still has the advantage there.

[Keltest]

I think it's at least implied (maybe outright said, I'm not really sure) that the original Merlin used time-travel, when building a certain something. That said, it's obviously very rare at most, so the D&D side probably still has the advantage there.

The Gatekeeper, a member of the White Council, has at least the capacity for it, and has done so once or twice in the books.

[tomandtish]

The Gatekeeper, a member of the White Council, has at least the capacity for it, and has done so once or twice in the books.

It's never been officially verified that he's done so, but Bob believes he's done it based on description of actions.

[GloatingSwine]

Harry's acknowledged that he's capable of violating most of the laws (he isn't sure about time travel). And the council does keep one designated member who is allowed to violate the laws as they see fit.

It's not being "allowed to violate the laws", it's holding and using the blackstaff (almost certainly Mother Winter's walking stick) that works around the consequences.

The laws of magic in the Dresdenverse are physical laws not statutory ones. If you violate them it causes irreparable damage to your soul, making you more and more likely to do it again until you totally lose yourself. It's not hard to break them, it's hard to stop once you've done it once.

That's why the penalty for the first offence is beheading and it's why Harry always carries a gun, because if he is put in a position where he has to kill a mortal he *needs* a non-magical way to do that.

[tomandtish]

It's not being "allowed to violate the laws", it's holding and using the blackstaff (almost certainly Mother Winter's walking stick) that works around the consequences.

The laws of magic in the Dresdenverse are physical laws not statutory ones. If you violate them it causes irreparable damage to your soul, making you more and more likely to do it again until you totally lose yourself. It's not hard to break them, it's hard to stop once you've done it once.

That's why the penalty for the first offence is beheading and it's why Harry always carries a gun, because if he is put in a position where he has to kill a mortal he *needs* a non-magical way to do that.

Good point, but it is both. McCoy even says it himself. The staff may keep him from being corrupted by it, but he's appointed by the council to do so without consequences on their end as well. Harry grabbing the Blackstaff from McCoy would still be in trouble with the council if he then mind controlled someone. The staff may protect him from metaphysical consequences, but it's holding the title that allows him to do these things without the "legal" consequences.

[Anymage]

On the flip side of the equation, I'm wondering what our bar for D&D wizards is. A bunch of high op, 20th level 3.5 casters? Just feats that show up in fiction series? And for that matter, are all the planes accessible through the nevernever or are some of them entirely safe refuges that are just one plane shift spell away?

With all assumptions made in their favor, a single 20th level, 3.5 D&D wizard could trounce our whole world and likely the entire nondivine Dresdenverse as well. 3.5 wizard vs. other things is pretty played out. So I'm going to try throwing in an alternate. Senior council vs. the equivalent inner circle of a D&D campaign setting wizarding organization. Senior council views the D&D wizards as outsiders instead of people as far as the laws of magic are concerned, plus giving themselves a little leeway on the first law if it's an active kill-or-be-killed fight. Otherwise laws of magic are kept to as normal. D&D wizards are limited to feats seen in books, and any relevant otherworlds are considered to be parts of the nevernever. Which groups of D&D wizards get trounced, which ones do the trouncing, and which ones are a tough fight either way?

[Xar Zarath]

...So I'm going to try throwing in an alternate. Senior council vs. the equivalent inner circle of a D&D campaign setting wizarding organization. Senior council views the D&D wizards as outsiders instead of people as far as the laws of magic are concerned, plus giving themselves a little leeway on the first law if it's an active kill-or-be-killed fight. Otherwise laws of magic are kept to as normal. D&D wizards are limited to feats seen in books, and any relevant otherworlds are considered to be parts of the nevernever. Which groups of D&D wizards get trounced, which ones do the trouncing, and which ones are a tough fight either way?

Well, the one I know from FR are the Zulkirs of Thay, the leading archmages in each of the Eight Schools of Magic. Pre-Spellplague of course. Post-Spellplage all those Zulkirs after Szaas Tam rule are basically liches under his control.

But then again, anyone else can suggest an equivalent, one that may not be setting specific? (although I can't think of many)