Survey is Up for D&Done Mage and Warrior UA (50 Pager)

[KorvinStarmast]

Not sure if this link will work for all, but DDB sent me an email.

https://survey.alchemer.com/s3/73337...ook-Playtest-5

Survey for the PHB Warrior and Mage D&Done thing.

[Zevox]

Thank you, been waiting for that. Submitted my feedback. Now to to the two months of waiting to hear how this went over for them, I suppose.

[T.G. Oskar]

Also submitted feedback.

I took a good second look at the features while doing so and skipped over a few things (the feats, since Epic Boons are improving but not my main cause for concern, and the death saving throws). Weapon Mastery features are decent, but I really don't dig Vex - it feels like it's trying to mimic Feint, but it applies mostly for the Rapier and light ranged weapons (Handaxe, Pistol, etc.), so it feels a lot like filler for them. It's a solid feature because it grants Advantage on the next attack but I'd prefer a bonafide Feint action instead. Nick as a way to keep the TWF-for-free concept feels like an insult after applying that to Light weapons as a concept, but it's nothing that really bothers me.

I went light on the Martial classes but I definitely went savage on the Arcane classes. I hate with a passion the idea of "unique" spells (i.e., that crap of Sorcerous Burst and Scribe Scroll) because they feel more like class features that were turned into "spells" to reduce space on the class description. I pointed out that the way they worked Hurl Through Hell is the way to deal with some of those features. It's there where I took a good look at Modify Spell for Wizards and...hoo boy, if there's something I want obliterated from existence is that "spell". Mostly because - costly material components be damned - it means Wizards can customize spells to a degree Sorcerers cannot, and with Create Spell they can make those changes permanent. Fireball turned into Smart Acidball, Haste turned into an AoE buff that doesn't require Concentration saves (though it still consumes your concentration), and so on. Just seeing how you can alter those spells made me feel utterly disgusted, mostly because with the advent of social media and D&D-related content, you can use the knowledge of several players to design the best spells in existence, thus making the Wizard return to the standing as the most powerful class in the game - and without giving tools to the DM to properly stop them other than "Thieves stole your party's gold for the umpteenth time".

So yeah, I went savage on the Arcane side.

[Mastikator]

I gave them my love for fighter and barbarian, my concern (and ambivalent love) for weapon masteries. And my hate for the sorcerer, arcane eruption and the metamagic changes is the only thing I liked.

[Zevox]

For me it was predominantly criticism of and suggestions for what else to do with the Warlock. Definitely also criticism of the new "spell" class features issue for all three casters. Weapon Mastery stuff gets a "right direction to be going, underwhelming execution" from me, basically, and with it largely ambivalence towards the Fighter's changes. Barbarian at least I was able to give them positive feedback on, which is a nice change of pace.

[diplomancer]

I only gave feedback on the Warlock. If they don't fix it, I definitely won't change to this edition, so, for everything else, my opinion doesn't matter much.

[Mongobear]

Had to fully reread the whole UA again to make sure I wasn't missing things, but I submitted my feedback.

I was especially harsh concerning the weapon mastery traits, especially their changes on TWFing and making a trait that acted like their original reworking of it. I dislike the entire system on principal, and repeatedly recommended that it be a focus for an entire book/expansion like the Tome of Battle in 3.5e where they add a handful of archetypes that utilize special weapon maneuvers and things.

I highly praised Warlock, because it is the first thing not blatantly OP like Hexblade that has me wanting to play one of them again. Nearly every change is moving in a direction I can agree with the class becoming more healthy.

Barbarian I was pretty harsh on. Mainly due to their utilization of Weapon Mastery, but also the nerfs to various features that don't need nerfed, as well as the changes to Frenzy/Berserker. They didn't need to change Frenzy mechanically, just drop the exhaustion mechanic and it's perfectly fine. The old capstone that boosted Str/Con getting nerfed and moved earlier in the class was just dumb, ill never understand it. If anything, give Barbarians an extra ASI/Feat at like 10th level similar to Rogues, nerfing something at 20th level, which probably less than 5% of any game since 2014 has ever gotten to seems pointless.

Fighter, I was extremely harsh on the base class, because they were entirely reworked to favor Weapon Mastery. Champion I praised because despite being quite boring still, they get their cool features faster, which is a plus.

The rest - Overall I was praising a lot of it. Wiz/Sorc isnt exactly my cup of tea, but I liked what I saw for the most part.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Happily votes to keep all changes but suggested an extra invocation slot and Mystic Arcanum allowing 2nd level.

Here's hoping it makes it all the way through, I definitely like this new Warlock and Sorcerer.

[BeholderEyeDr]

Whew, that took a while!

I'm not in love with weapon mastery yet, so I rated that negatively overall. I'm still undecided on the direction, but I definitely don't like this current version. I might like it after some iteration, but I'm not sold.

Fighter stuff was great otherwise. Barbarian stuff was mostly great otherwise, though there were a few things I rated negatively (e.g., brutal critical still being underwhelming, no native help against mental influence).

For sorcerers and wizards, I really despise the "spells instead of features" approach we saw in this packet, and said as much. I appreciate that they tried something interesting and new this time, and I'd love it if it never appeared again!

Love the new warlock design, and just offered the suggestions I think it needs to be even better: an extra invocation slot at 3rd (and 2nd level MA), some kind of SR-recharging ability (e.g., MA of spell level <=5 or patron spell free cast), some balancing on the pacts and invocation options, things like that. But I definitely hope this version gets iterated upon, because I think it's great!

[Keravath]

My take :)

I hacked apart the overpowered and broken Modify and Create spell features for the wizard. There are just too many ways to hack spell requirements that it turns the wizard into a customized powerhouse (at least as I read it). Plus the modify spell is a ritual, a wizard doesn't even need to spend a 6th level spell slot to add three customizations to a spell - it only takes 11 minutes. The same for Memorize spell. The wizard can pull out any spell in their spellbook at no cost in 11 minutes.

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I also didn't like the warlock modifications -
Blade pact - can't use heavy weapons anymore - no great swords/glaives etc.
Tome pact - no adding extra rituals to the book - they seem to have removed the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation
Chain pact - invisibility for the familiars requires an action - they can't be invisible and hide/sneak, dodge, dash, disengage ... adding some meaningless attack to the familiar doesn't compensate

Hex is 1d6 extra damage 1/turn - still requires concentration but uses a spell slot. Hunters mark and Divine favor still affect every attack as far as I know and the Ranger favored foe ability is proficiency times/day but doesn't use spell slots. The disadvantage on one category of ability checks is an occasionally useful ribbon though it can work against a creature that grapples.

Even the invocation and class feature boosting hex are useless since hex itself is useless. It lasts longer and does an extra d6 of damage when cast with 3/4 then 5th level slots which don't come online to level 9 or 15 - using one of a scarce resource of slots that are far better used for some other concentration spell since 1d6 or 2d6 extra a turn is utterly insignificant compared to something like a fireball (warlocks can't get synaptic static until level 17 rather than level 9).

Implementing the pacts as spells might work mechanically but doesn't work for me from a flavor/feel perspective. It should be a class feature.

Eldritch invocations increased to 9 from 8 BUT mystic arcanums now count as invocations so getting 4 arcanums only leaves 5 invocations - a reduction of 3 from previously.

Eldritch blast is warlock levels only - certainly reduces the multiclass potential so I can't argue with that - sorlock with AB+quickened AB is likely too effective (and I say that having played them) but they could have left hex as 1d6/attack since hex is very rarely the best choice of spell for a warlock to concentrate on.

Half-caster warlock - removes the thematic aspect of a warlock being different - gives them more spell slots at a much lower level. With 2 short rests a level 9 warlock would have 6 level 5 spell slots - in the new version a level 9 warlock has 9 spell slots but only 2 3rd, 3 2nd and 4 1st - which is actually better and more useful? Definite nerf to warlock spellcasting.

In fact, as far as I can see, they have nerfed every single aspect of a warlock without giving anything back and a single classed warlock in the current version isn't even remotely broken. Most of the complaints with warlock have to do with multiclassing. So, honestly, I have no idea what they were thinking with the warlock redesign presented here. It certainly isn't "overpowered" but it isn't remotely comparable to even a single classed current warlock and that isn't "overpowered" either.

Warlock changes get a hard thumbs down from me and if they remain even remotely the same I won't be using them if they publish a new version.

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Death saving throws - it looks like they removed the roll a 20 and wake up with 1 hit point feature? Also without the ability to "stabilize", a party who has run out of healing spells/potions/spare the dying gets to stand around and watch their companion live or die on death saves with nothing they can do BUT first aid can wake them up in less than a minute if they manage to survive. Huh? As far as I am concerned, there should be a first aid check allowed to get the character to the 1hp/unconscious state and THEN healing or a short rest is required to wake them up - makes far more sense to me.

[DracoKnight]

Well...

That was a marathon.

I really effing hope that they don't push this new Warlock through. They massacred my baby.

[Psyren]

I'm waiting for my preferred youtubers to fill it out because they always tend to catch stuff I'd miss otherwise. For example, I was so focused on druid feedback that I almost missed the insanity that is UA Abjure Foes.

[Kane0]

That Abjure Foes i think makes a decent replacement for Turn Undead on the cleric, with some adjustments. Reserve Turn Undead for Light/life clerics specifically

[Hurrashane]

My take :)

I hacked apart the overpowered and broken Modify and Create spell features for the wizard. There are just too many ways to hack spell requirements that it turns the wizard into a customized powerhouse (at least as I read it). Plus the modify spell is a ritual, a wizard doesn't even need to spend a 6th level spell slot to add three customizations to a spell - it only takes 11 minutes. The same for Memorize spell. The wizard can pull out any spell in their spellbook at no cost in 11 minutes.

Um... No? A spell that's ritually cast can only be cast at it's lowest level. So if you want to make three customizations you need to expend a spell slot. Like, other than any caster having access to ritual spells there's no changes to how rituals work.

"Certain spells have a special tag: ritual. Such a spell can be cast following the normal rules for spellcasting, or the spell can be cast as a ritual. The ritual version of a spell takes 10 minutes longer to cast than normal. It also doesn’t expend a spell slot, which means the ritual version of a spell can’t be cast at a higher level."

[sambojin]

Sorta wondering if Warlock could be a super easy fix of "get an extra invocation at lvl4 and lvl8". Or, to tell you the truth, every ASI.

Then you can make what you want, probably alongside more invocations for utility in the PHB, or more high level spell picks so that whole half caster thing isn't a problem at all.

Not too frontloaded, flexible, and potentially rather powerful.

Sorta think Barb could use an extra rage every ASI level as well, especially if side skill usage is linked to them (I tend to think that should be an entirely different pool of resources, either 2/sr, or pb/lr (for super strings of awesomeness when required). But more rages (or invocations) solves a lot of problems, and makes ASI levels never feel simplistic on the amount of awesome they could give some classes (that feel a little weak without them).

[diplomancer]

Sorta wondering if Warlock could be a super easy fix of "get an extra invocation at lvl4 and lvl8". Or, to tell you the truth, every ASI.

Then you can make what you want, probably alongside more invocations for utility in the PHB, or more high level spell picks so that whole half caster thing isn't a problem at all.

Not too frontloaded, flexible, and potentially rather powerful.

If by "fix" you mean create a different class that plays completely different from the current Warlock, that still has horrible flexibility in his highest level spells, and that is basically a discount Wizard, then sure, that's a "fix".

For the people who like Pact Magic (and I venture that the majority of people who actually play Warlocks do enjoy Pact Magic, or they'd play different classes), no "fix" that entails getting rid of Pact Magic will really fix the class; at best, it will create another class, that, hopefully, won't feel just like another Arcane caster. So, why not just fix Pact Magic (and, if necessary, create another half-caster class with invocations)?

[Theodoxus]

Sorta wondering if Warlock could be a super easy fix of "get an extra invocation at lvl4 and lvl8". Or, to tell you the truth, every ASI.

Then you can make what you want, probably alongside more invocations for utility in the PHB, or more high level spell picks so that whole half caster thing isn't a problem at all.

Not too frontloaded, flexible, and potentially rather powerful.

Sorta think Barb could use an extra rage every ASI level as well, especially if side skill usage is linked to them (I tend to think that should be an entirely different pool of resources, either 2/sr, or pb/lr (for super strings of awesomeness when required). But more rages (or invocations) solves a lot of problems, and makes ASI levels never feel simplistic on the amount of awesome they could give some classes (that feel a little weak without them).

Re: Warlock, seems like the easiest way to accomplish the ASI is to make it feats with a prerequisite of having X Warlock levels (4, 8, 12, 16, and 19).

Re: Barbarian, after perusing PF2, I'm pretty confident with having rage work exactly like wildshape. Max 2, refreshes on a short rest. (This is for 5E, as I realize D&Done is killing SRs in general).
For the playtest, I think a slight modification to the resistances from Rage, and using the PF2 '1 minute on, 1 minute off' unlimited rage would work (I think changing the resistance to damage reduction = 2xPB would be sufficient for the increase in utility).

Pact Magic rant

I'm rooting for you, diplomancer. I suspect you're not gonna win, but I really want your side to. I think WotC is making a mistake in trimming out the SR mechanics. From what I've seen during my research, SRs are pretty much exclusive to D&D and clones.

[Psyren]

I think there is middle ground between the current UA and returning to 2014 SR Pact Slots. Crawford outright said that they're open to a special progression just for Warlocks, which could even mean something like full-casting 1-10 and then MA after etc, or 2/3 casting + MA, or 3/4 casting + MA... there's a lot of options here.

I'm not totally happy with what's in the UA either. For one thing, I don't like the random slower progression at levels 3-4, and second, I don't like the fact that Warlocks can't upcast past 5th (either version) because upcasting is critical to making a dedicated summoner. I don't need Warlocks to be better at that than anyone else but they should be good at it.

[Keravath]

Um... No? A spell that's ritually cast can only be cast at it's lowest level. So if you want to make three customizations you need to expend a spell slot. Like, other than any caster having access to ritual spells there's no changes to how rituals work.

"Certain spells have a special tag: ritual. Such a spell can be cast following the normal rules for spellcasting, or the spell can be cast as a ritual. The ritual version of a spell takes 10 minutes longer to cast than normal. It also doesn’t expend a spell slot, which means the ritual version of a spell can’t be cast at a higher level."

Oops - you are correct, I forgot. :) However, it only means that it will take a bit longer to create the spells with multiple modifications. A 6th level spell slot will allow three modifications (7th would be 4) and then the creation and scribe scroll spells. All of this can be done with a few days off so it really doesn't change that much and the creation cost of 1000gp/level of spell modified isn't that much of a hindrance in most games at higher levels.

In my opinion the most powerful modifications are component removal, not losing concentration due to damage, and only affecting either allies or enemies. There are several spells that can be modified using just these effects that would make them much more powerful. Range might also be a useful modification for some spells.

[diplomancer]

I'm rooting for you, diplomancer. I suspect you're not gonna win, but I really want your side to. I think WotC is making a mistake in trimming out the SR mechanics. From what I've seen during my research, SRs are pretty much exclusive to D&D and clones.

Hey, if you're daunted by terrible odds you're playing the wrong game, am I right or am I right?

[Zevox]

I think there is middle ground between the current UA and returning to 2014 SR Pact Slots. Crawford outright said that they're open to a special progression just for Warlocks, which could even mean something like full-casting 1-10 and then MA after etc, or 2/3 casting + MA, or 3/4 casting + MA... there's a lot of options here.

Yeah, from their remarks in the videos I think it's safe to say that the short rest recharge part is going away - well, unless there's a huge outcry against that, but I very much doubt there will be. But the rest it should be very possible to convince them to reconsider.

Personally, I just want them to ditch the half-caster format for their spellcasting, I think that's fundamentally wrong for the class. Whether that means bringing back auto-upcasting/fewer slots, full casting level 1-10 + MA for higher levels, or something else entirely. I even threw out the suggestion of returning the class to what it was in 3.5E, with Invocations as basically its whole thing, defined by at-will magic rather than the traditional spell slot system at all. That one's probably a long shot, but hey, worth a try.

[Theodoxus]

Would something like this work?

Take 5E Warlock. Multiple the slots by level by 3, but they're LR recharging; otherwise everything else is the same (auto-upcast, etc.). Put in language stating that pulling power from their patron causes a strain on their wellbeing. You can cast two* leveled spells within a 5 minute timeframe, but casting more within it grants a level of exhaustion equal to the spell level used.

Let the player decide if the cost is worth using more power than a 5E Warlock would normally have.

To solve the 'can't cast Shield like a Wizard', have a specialized MA invocation that grants PB/2 (round up) 1st level slots that don't auto-upcast. (Could conceivably use the same idea for each level 1-5, but I would suspect that 1st level slots are the most requested.)

*probably would want to include language that naturally increases the number of slots available at 11th and 17th level (3 and 4 respectively), just so it mirrors the 5E Warlock.

[diplomancer]

Would something like this work?

Take 5E Warlock. Multiple the slots by level by 3, but they're LR recharging; otherwise everything else is the same (auto-upcast, etc.). Put in language stating that pulling power from their patron causes a strain on their wellbeing. You can cast two* leveled spells within a 5 minute timeframe, but casting more within it grants a level of exhaustion equal to the spell level used.

Let the player decide if the cost is worth using more power than a 5E Warlock would normally have.

To solve the 'can't cast Shield like a Wizard', have a specialized MA invocation that grants PB/2 (round up) 1st level slots that don't auto-upcast. (Could conceivably use the same idea for each level 1-5, but I would suspect that 1st level slots are the most requested.)

*probably would want to include language that naturally increases the number of slots available at 11th and 17th level (3 and 4 respectively), just so it mirrors the 5E Warlock.

Would work for me. Then some small adjustments, of course, on other features that could be tweaked. Level of exhaustion equal to spell seems a bit too powerful, but just giving a level of exhaustion would be reasonable (though I'm not sure if you're talking about 5e exhaustion or D&DOne Exhaustion) And bringing the 3rd slot to 9th level, the math works out better that way.

I still prefer my suggestion of "double the slots, recover half on a Short Rest once a day"; your Exhaustion idea can be added to it. I think it still keeps a bit of the special flavor of Pact Magic recovering faster than regular magic, but without being as dependent on Short Rests as before, and the end result is the same number of slots as yours, except you can't cast all of them in one battle (which I think is a good thing).

[Kane0]

Move pact magic to the patron, using the patron list and limited to once per short rest. Then the base chassis can have halfcasting with the option of devoting invocations to more spellcasting.
Would still need something to address the level 6+ spells though, unless you just give extra invocations to handle that.

[Mongobear]

Pact Magic as we know it being tied only to the unique spells given by each patron would be nice. then the half-caster stuff is for your normal spells.

[Theodoxus]

Would work for me. Then some small adjustments, of course, on other features that could be tweaked. Level of exhaustion equal to spell seems a bit too powerful, but just giving a level of exhaustion would be reasonable (though I'm not sure if you're talking about 5e exhaustion or D&DOne Exhaustion) And bringing the 3rd slot to 9th level, the math works out better that way.

I still prefer my suggestion of "double the slots, recover half on a Short Rest once a day"; your Exhaustion idea can be added to it. I think it still keeps a bit of the special flavor of Pact Magic recovering faster than regular magic, but without being as dependent on Short Rests as before, and the end result is the same number of slots as yours, except you can't cast all of them in one battle (which I think is a good thing).

Yeah, it was the D&DOne version I was thinking of. If it was the 2014 version of exhaustion, I agree then just 1 level for 'overcasting'.

I still like the idea of an invocation to grant 1st level spells, for those players who want them. It's not my cup of tea; I don't really care about defense (Shield, Absorb Elements and the like) as much on a Warlock (it probably helps that I always play healer, so I've only ever played Celestial), but I totally understand the desire to have low level slots available. An invocation would grant the kind of granularity (or, I guess "Build a bear") that has always made Warlock such a great chassis to mod off of.

[diplomancer]

Yeah, it was the D&DOne version I was thinking of. If it was the 2014 version of exhaustion, I agree then just 1 level for 'overcasting'.

I still like the idea of an invocation to grant 1st level spells, for those players who want them. It's not my cup of tea; I don't really care about defense (Shield, Absorb Elements and the like) as much on a Warlock (it probably helps that I always play healer, so I've only ever played Celestial), but I totally understand the desire to have low level slots available. An invocation would grant the kind of granularity (or, I guess "Build a bear") that has always made Warlock such a great chassis to mod off of.

Yeah, this invocation is a good idea, just have to think of a good name for it. "Minor Arcanum" perhaps. It does sound better than "We know this is for Shield" :p I think it could even be just Prof bonus, not Prof/2, but scale with Warlock levels only. Or, though I know they have deprecated a bit that model, Casting Stat times/day.

[Kane0]

We sorta have that, its Tomb of Levistus

[diplomancer]

We sorta have that, its Tomb of Levistus

Take away the 'lose your turn" clause of Tomb of Levistus, and I'll agree it's a flavorful substitute for Shield.