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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Most Important Thing a Ruleset Teaches You

    If you are coming new to a game that you have not played before, what is the most important thing a rule set should do in order for you to effectively play the game?

    I imagine this may look different based on a few factors:

    1. How familiar are you with RPGs?
    2. How familiar are you with the genre?
    3. How familiar you are with the game itself?
    4. Are your fellow players conversant in the rules?

    There are probably other factors as well, that we can discuss. However, considering the above, what is the most important thing a rule set can do for you to be able to play the game?
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    Default Re: Most Important Thing a Ruleset Teaches You

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy e View Post
    If you are coming new to a game that you have not played before, what is the most important thing a rule set should do in order for you to effectively play the game?
    Explain how to play the game.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Most Important Thing a Ruleset Teaches You

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Explain how to play the game.
    The snark is strong with this one.

    Um... Hard to say, because as you said, there are a lot of categories depending on where the reader is coming from. I think one of the things I like the most is to have walk throughs and examples along the way. Writing a page of text is important for rules parsing or whatever, but sometimes a simple 2 -3 sentence example of what the page is telling me helps explain what's really going on.

    I suppose from a structural point of view, I'm a bit of a traditionalist. First chapter should explain the basics. What the game is about (genre/theme kind of stuff). Basic game mechanics (resolution mechanics). How the game is played (co-op, competive, GM run, group play, whatever). Then start into PC creation. Explain stats, skills, abilities, whatever. What you start with, what is used to add to that, skill points, classes, levels, whatever. This can be quite large, especially in class based games. You could either add races here as well, or have them later as a "here's all the different optional things you can be". I've seen both methods used (assume human and then add races in later chapters, or list them up front just like classes). After this section should come something about skill lists and resolution methodologies, and possibly additional chapters for abilities, feats, spells, etc. This really strongly depends on the structure of the game itself IMO. You can have whole chapters on the magic rules and spells, and whatever else is in the game. Then combat resolution rules (I prefer this to come after skills and other non-combat stuff, so that the focus is on "here's how we resolve things", to which you are adding "here's how we resolve the special case that is combat". Uh... then equipment, and rules related to equipment. Then, uh... world/environmental stuff? Cost suggestions, world building/setting stuff (if applicable), rules that don't fit elsewhere (drowning, on fire, swimming in acid, falling), time, travel, distance, etc. Oh. Then treasure maybe? And monsters/beastiary (and rules for handling NPCs and monsters if those have different rules than PCs).

    To me, those are the bare minmum most RPGs will require. You need enough rules to be able to build characters in the game, know what the things you are building into those characters do, and how to resolve those things, and a bit about what else is in the world around you that you may need to deal with. Of course, some of this stuff could absolutely be broken into different rules for players and GMs, from a "what do I have to buy" point of view. But someone will need that information for a table of people to be able to play.

    I've seen a lot of games over time, and most of them follow a format at least somewhat similar to that. As to how well the rules are written, that's another subject. But a good part of that is the game system itself. Some games are very very consistent with their resolution mechanisms, which may feel a bit constrained, but make things "easy". Some games seem determined to "rule by exception" with every section having almost completely different rules for each aspect of the game. That's more complex, but could provide more variety. I lean somewhat towards the former side of the middle on that scale. But that's less about the rules layout than just about the game itself.

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    Default Re: Most Important Thing a Ruleset Teaches You

    Honestly, explicit procedures. Too often games don't give you those, but just explain math.

    I'd really prefer a "do this, do this" kind of thing with most games, to ensure that I'm running the game as expected. Which doesn't mean I can't choose to ignore that :)
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    Default Re: Most Important Thing a Ruleset Teaches You

    One thing I ran across trying out Lancer, SWON, and a couple others is that there's sometimes a disconnect between the game as presented in the documents and the game as playable.

    Like with Lancer it included all the instructions to make the mechs, mission, opponent, and rolls. What I couldn't find out until after several attempts at playing, was that there are strategies and tactics that seem supported by the rules & lore & descriptions & pictures but really aren't. And there are things about building the fight maps (Lancer is super map & mini required) that makes dtuff like using RL terrain maps really really really bad. It gave you all the mechanical wigets, but didn't actually explain setting up and playing the game in a way that was fun.

    Stars Without Number was similar. All the mechanics and how to numberize things were there in the book. But it wasn't until I tried to make a pilot or hacker character and put them through a book described "average" task that I found the super focused specialist characters are just barely at basic competence for easy tasks. Stuff like discovering if a character isn't a pure combat build then you're better off throwing grenades because everyone has utter **** saves, and you'll still be a basic "random flailing" at any type of combat that isn't your exact specialty.

    So there's "how to play the game" and "how to get the game to function as a tool for fun" being different things. Now, with 30 freaking years of this hobby I can make almost any game work once I've figured out that when the designer/book says "average" they really mean "trained & talented experts fail half the time and everyone else is hopelessly pathetic". But it'd be so much nicer if I didn't have to run tests & stats analysis on the damn game to find out that sort of stuff. And of course its those years of experience that tell me to start doing analysis when something seems off. I can't even imagine what it's like anymore for someone who just tries to trust the books to show them how to play the game.

    To me, the most important thing the rules can teach me is how they work to make a fun game. What assumptions, prep, and limits I need to follow. Explicitly lay out the style & genre expected, and how to get that out of the mechanics.

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    Default Re: Most Important Thing a Ruleset Teaches You

    Quote Originally Posted by gbaji View Post
    The snark is strong with this one.
    I think you are old enough to be aware that early editions of D&D had examples of play as an organic part of the game. (Granted, the three little brown books were a bit sparse on the connective tissue. Basic, B/X, and AD&D did a much better job ...)
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2023-05-23 at 07:04 PM.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Most Important Thing a Ruleset Teaches You

    A game is a model of reality (or fictional universe).

    What I find most useful is an explanation that goes i to the assumptions the designer is making about this model of reality.
    Some examples
    - The functional difference between different types of pistol is minor, therefore the game will not track the difference between a 1911 Colt, a Browning High Power, Walther PPK or Webley .455 Mk 1. All of these are considered “heavy pistols” in the game. Small caliber pistols are all “light pistols”.
    - A class represents a lifestyle and years of experience involved in activities. To learn a new class skill assumes a baseline competency and awareness in the skill which is why class skills are locked to different classes. Multi-classing is not available because of the commitment of time required to acquire baseline competency in all the skills that the class represents (old school D&D).
    - Review of actual combat analysis shows that the biggest difference between veterans and rookies is that veterans are much better at avoiding getting hit, but the difference offensive output is much smaller. As PCs gain experience they will improve their defensive capabilities much faster than their offensive capabilities.

    Especially when the model the game is using is diverging from traditional modeling techniques I want the underlying assumptions spelled out.

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    Default Re: Most Important Thing a Ruleset Teaches You

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Explain how to play the game.
    I was waiting for this one to appear, but the first response! Bravo!*


    So, what is the most important thing to know about to know how to play the game? Is it a discussion of resolving tests? An example of play? Discussing the role of the GM? Something else entirely?







    * = To be clear, this is not snark. It is more an acknowledgement that my initial post was not worded all that well. Sometimes, when the door is wide open, you have to walk through it.
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    Default Re: Most Important Thing a Ruleset Teaches You

    Quote Originally Posted by Pauly View Post
    A game is a model of reality (or fictional universe).
    This is not a universal truth.
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    Default Re: Most Important Thing a Ruleset Teaches You

    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    This is not a universal truth.
    Accurate. For example: Lancer is a Battletech semi-clone with one vague, handwavey, "you can narrate non-mecha stuff and roll a couple dice" part tacked on as an after thought. It's widely considered a rpg in ways Battletech isn't despite that it's role playing & non-mecha parts barely exceed the level of Lasers & Feelings in depth and options. It doesn't "model" a anything outside mech combat.

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    Default Re: Most Important Thing a Ruleset Teaches You

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    Accurate. For example: Lancer is a Battletech semi-clone with one vague, handwavey, "you can narrate non-mecha stuff and roll a couple dice" part tacked on as an after thought. It's widely considered a rpg in ways Battletech isn't despite that it's role playing & non-mecha parts barely exceed the level of Lasers & Feelings in depth and options. It doesn't "model" a anything outside mech combat.
    Fate and PbtA games, too. Neither of them "model" anything. They provide resolution procedures for when you encounter uncertainty. I'm sure others, too. Those just come to mind quickly.
    Last edited by kyoryu; 2023-05-24 at 12:48 PM.
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    Default Re: Most Important Thing a Ruleset Teaches You

    I like examples inside a given chapter and then a sum up mock run at the end of chapters that are heavy in the mechanics. I also want example PC sheets (either for a pre gen or just because) that follow the rules and show their work.

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    Default Re: Most Important Thing a Ruleset Teaches You

    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    Fate and PbtA games, too. Neither of them "model" anything. They provide resolution procedures for when you encounter uncertainty. I'm sure others, too. Those just come to mind quickly.
    I'm not sure I'd quite go that far. I have copies of a couple PbtA games and they seem (because near nobody in this town but I will run anything except flavor of the month d&d or knockoffs thereof) to reasonably model the world, just through a more narrative focus on character actions rather than a pure physical model. Like the PbtA Shadowrun hack has rules for cyberware, contacts, gun mods and drugs. They're just focused on how they change the story rather than modeling how much physically stronger, tougher, talky, or shooty they make the character. It more takes the "npcs/stats don't exist/matter unless the pcs are interacting with them" paradigm to a logical conclusion.
    Last edited by Telok; 2023-05-24 at 01:05 PM.

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    Default Re: Most Important Thing a Ruleset Teaches You

    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    Fate and PbtA games, too. Neither of them "model" anything. They provide resolution procedures for when you encounter uncertainty. I'm sure others, too. Those just come to mind quickly.
    I'd say that even D&D 5e, understood properly, isn't trying to model very much. Specifically, it has
    - resolution mechanics for uncertainty, at the game level. These are explicitly not in-universe things.
    - mechanics and fiction for playing adventurers. The whole ruleset is focused around PC-type things. There's actually an active thread about how a Medium Goliath with STR 19 and a Large Ogre (STR 19) can lift and carry the same amount. And why the carry weights of things like elephants don't make much sense. That's because their STR scores were set with reference to their combat capabilities; carry weight (etc) is just a short-cut of much less (to the designers) importance.

    If you take the view that D&D 5e is trying[1] to be true to a set of archetypes and tropes[2] rather than anything "realistic", it makes much more[3] sense.

    [1] not succeeding, mind. At least not 100%. But trying.
    [2] many of which are incestuous "D&D portraying trope that was started and influenced by earlier editions of D&D, in one big circle" types, rather than actual myth and legend.
    [3] but not total
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    Default Re: Most Important Thing a Ruleset Teaches You

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    So there's "how to play the game" and "how to get the game to function as a tool for fun" being different things. Now, with 30 freaking years of this hobby I can make almost any game work once I've figured out that when the designer/book says "average" they really mean "trained & talented experts fail half the time and everyone else is hopelessly pathetic". But it'd be so much nicer if I didn't have to run tests & stats analysis on the damn game to find out that sort of stuff. And of course its those years of experience that tell me to start doing analysis when something seems off. I can't even imagine what it's like anymore for someone who just tries to trust the books to show them how to play the game.
    That's a really good point. There is a skill that develops over time to "figure out how these rules really work", that you'd hope isn't needed, but often is. Kinda ties into the observation I made earlier that some games "rule by exception" and some have more consistent resolution methodologies. There are plusses and minuses to each, but I've found that it's often far far harded to "figure out how these rules really work" in the former case.

    When resolution mechanisms are consistent, then once you kinda grok how the rolls work and what they represent, you can get a feel for how it'll work across the board. But when they aren't, I find myself constantly being blindsided by some minor rule that has a much more significant impact in actual play than I thought when I first read through the rules.

    Again though, these all more come back to actual rule mechanics, and less how well the rules are written. Aside, I suppose, from the broad observation that the better the actual rules are, everything else being the same, the easier it is to write a ruleset that is clear to the reader. If I'm reading through a rulebook and feeling like it's a sequence of "oh, and in this case, you do this instead, but when doing this, you do yet another thing", there's good odds the game just isn't going to play well.

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    Default Re: Most Important Thing a Ruleset Teaches You

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    I'd say that even D&D 5e, understood properly, isn't trying to model very much.
    I'd agree with this 100%.

    However, I also think that enough people have internalized How D&D Works that they really think it is modeling stuff, and sidetracking into that will likely derail the conversation.

    "Some games model reality, some games don't" is a useful conversation without addressing the elephant in the room of "does D&D model anything?"
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    Default Re: Most Important Thing a Ruleset Teaches You

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy e View Post
    So, what is the most important thing to know about to know how to play the game? Is it a discussion of resolving tests? An example of play? Discussing the role of the GM? Something else entirely?
    There is no "one most important thing"

    It's all of the above. Pictures and illustrations help also.

    A great example of this being done well is the Avalon Hill game Waterloo. (It's a board game).
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
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    Default Re: Most Important Thing a Ruleset Teaches You

    I dont think anything has to model reality but if it happens to resemble something that exists but doesn't act the same way it should be noted. If I jump I will eventually fall.
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

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    Default Re: Most Important Thing a Ruleset Teaches You

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    It's all of the above. Pictures and illustrations help also.
    Gads, yes, pictures. They're more important than many people think.

    D&D has just generally generic fantasy art that makes people, especially us old timers, really only notice the bad & jarring bits. But add some pics to your stealth & perception rules to massively clear up questions with a little page space. Add some pics to shorthand example what you expect certain things, skills, spells etc., to do in the game. Pics also inform people coming into a new game. SWON had lots of typical space opera & space opera fighting pictures that showed a semi-Star Wars or Starfinder (which is "pathfinder/3.5e d&d knockoff in sphaze") type action. It wasn't until interrogation of the math & rule interactions that I discovered it was mechanically closer to 1st level AD&D "6hp teenagers with a borrowed sword & hand-me-down armor" than anything heroic or swachbucklery.

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    Default Re: Most Important Thing a Ruleset Teaches You

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy e View Post
    If you are coming new to a game that you have not played before, what is the most important thing a rule set should do in order for you to effectively play the game?

    I imagine this may look different based on a few factors:

    1. How familiar are you with RPGs?
    2. How familiar are you with the genre?
    3. How familiar you are with the game itself?
    4. Are your fellow players conversant in the rules?

    There are probably other factors as well, that we can discuss. However, considering the above, what is the most important thing a rule set can do for you to be able to play the game?
    I like how the Monster of the Week manual gives both the Keeper and the Hunters a set of guiding principles. It really helped me adjudicate situations that weren't covered or I couldn't find the rules reference for.

    Obviously that system's much lighter on mechanics than, say, D&D. But I think every TTRPG would benefit from having a "one-pager." For 5e, for instance, it would be nice to have things like "specific beats general" and "only call for a roll if success and failure are both meaningful chances" and "1. DM Describes 2. Players React 3. DM Adjudicates (with or without rolling/abilities) 4. Repeat"

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    Default Re: Most Important Thing a Ruleset Teaches You

    How to read the character sheet, and by extension, the character sheet itself should be fairly intuitive. I'm of the opinion that the overwhelming majority of the basics of the game should be right there on a single-sided piece of paper. Both in terms of clear math for derived stats, visual indicators where any derived numbers are coming from, and the absolute most basic of relevant gameplay elements (IE: you roll a d20 for just about anything except when it says you roll something else, like for weapon damage).

    If you can grab a character sheet, fill out at least the basic stats and skills without even opening the book, I generally find the game is going to go pretty smoothly. The more I have to stop and refer back to XYZ page in the book to understand basic elements on the character sheet, the more often I find myself struggling to play a new system.

    I'm very much a "learn by play" sort of person, and yes I realize my approach often requires someone else to know how to play beforehand. But I've generally found that if I can keep new players focused on the character sheet and not hopping back and forth into the rulebook, picking up a new game goes a lot smoother. Even if we do things wrong, the important bit is being able to understand whats in front of you, and being able to keep the focus on the table, the game, and the dice, than constantly pausing and having to ask "But what does this button do?"

    If I can't communicate the game basics, and in turn if the game can't communicate the basics in about 5 minutes, we're going to have problems.

    IE: I find WoD pretty gosh darned easy to teach (and I always start my players as normal humans for this reason) because the character sheet is really straight-forward(and the sheet even has helpful hints at the bottom!). I find 5E fairly easy to teach for the same reason but somewhat more complex. I find L5R hard to teach because the character sheet is not particularly intuitive on character creation and requires a lot of reference back to the book(which itself is kinda dense and foreign), even if someone wants to make something very simple. I find FFG Star Wars somewhere in the middle, usually finding I need about 5 pages from the core book to really help explain the character sheet(discounting the class trees themselves).
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    Default Re: Most Important Thing a Ruleset Teaches You

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    Accurate. For example: Lancer is a Battletech semi-clone with one vague, handwavey, "you can narrate non-mecha stuff and roll a couple dice" part tacked on as an after thought. It's widely considered a rpg in ways Battletech isn't despite that it's role playing & non-mecha parts barely exceed the level of Lasers & Feelings in depth and options. It doesn't "model" a anything outside mech combat.
    I'm actually going to give the exact opposite take here. Lancer definitely models reality: look at all the rules for mech combat! Is this a particularly detailed, comprehensive, and accurate model? Sometimes! Similarly, the narrative sections of the game are very vague and loose, but they are still a model.

    All game systems model reality (or at least "a" reality), but most game systems focus on a particular aspect of "everything". A lot of RPGs like D&D and Lancer focus primarily on combat interactions, and have varying levels of support for other aspects of the world. World of Darkness like to model supernatural inclinations an a general downward trend of moral corruption and inevitable loss of humanity. Exalted likes to model extremely powerful individuals who shape history almost by merely existing, with lots of grandstanding and philosophical divides.

    The idea of a "model" is extremely permissive. Tic Tac Toe I probably wouldn't consider a model of reality because it's so abstract, but chess and go are each models of reality expressing different understandings of warfare, albeit not very directly and with a lot of abstraction.

    Back to the thread topic though, I think the model of the game's reality is importantly intertwined with the model of the game's narrative structure. There are a lot of threads complaining about high level D&D characters, because the game doesn't really convey its vision for what high level characters are in a way people can understand. This is an issue beyond "people play different games", and goes more fundamentally into questions like "what are hit points" and "what is character level" and "what does it mean to be a player character". A common example is the complaint that falling damage isn't "realistic" because of how easily a high-level character can survive it... without noting that a 5th level character is supposed to be exceeding mortal human capabilities, and a high level character is well on their way to literal demigodhood, as in Hercules. This is technically written in the rules, but it isn't reinforced well and this leads to a lot of confusion. (This isn't entirely D&D's fault, it exists in a difficult cultural space with a lot of expectations being projected onto it.)

    Where I'm going with this is: What kind of game does your system run? Is it about plucky children picking up swords and staves and fighting against impossible odds, or is it about He-Man running amok and thwarting evil by being so utterly badass? Generally speaking, your system will have a focus of the kinds of story it is trying to tell, the kind of fictional reality it is trying to model, and these expectations need to be clearly communicated so the people playing the game will use the system for what it is good at.

    ---

    As a separate point, but to this same end, I really like developer sidebars talking about why a mechanic is written a particular way, what gameplay dynamics or consequences it is intended to evoke, and other such looks behind the curtain at the intent of things.
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