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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default What alignment would you associate with each class

    Hey

    I know you can mostly be any alignment.
    If your going based solely on the class descriptions of the class including subclasses like Monster Ranger, Abjuration wizard, Assassin, etc what alignment would you give them?
    Last edited by BarbarianConan; 2023-05-24 at 12:16 AM.

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    Default Re: What alignment would you associate with each class

    Quote Originally Posted by BarbarianConan View Post
    Hey

    I know you can mostly be any alignment.
    If your going based solely on the class descriptions of the class including subclasses like Monster Ranger, Abjuration wizard, Assassin, etc what alignment would you give them?

    Classes don't have alignments. People have alignments, and some people have classes.

    At best you can say that Paladin orders attract lawful people, because it is hard to keep an oath between you and the universe without having the behavior indicating a lawful alignment. The Oaths of Devotion and Redemption tends to attract good people, and the Oath of Conquest evil ones, for the same reasons: hard to follow the tennets without having the behavior indicating the alignment in question.

    Oathbreaker Paladins are going to be near universally evil because you can't be this subclass unless you've broken your Oath (not inherently evil by itself), reached the bottom of the morality barrel, and then kept digging while refusing any chance of not being horrible. And even if an Oathbreaker wasn't evil, all Oathbreakers become Death Knights once they die, so deliberately refusing any chance to not end up a powerful undead who torments the living is pretty skeevy in itself.

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    Orc in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: What alignment would you associate with each class

    Obviously yes the question is a bit silly due to the fact that there isn't really any strong connection between class and alignment. But as for the archetypal versions of each class, sure let's break em down one by one.
    Artificer- Lawful Neutral
    Barbarian- Chaotic Neutral
    Bard- Chaotic Good
    Cleric- Lawful Good
    Druid- Neutral Good
    Fighter- True Neutral
    Monk- Lawful Neutral
    Paladin- Lawful Good
    Ranger- Neutral Good
    Rogue- Chaotic Evil
    Sorcerer- Chaotic Neutral
    Warlock- Lawful Evil
    Wizard- True Neutral
    So to my mind classes that are more discipline and rigid social structure based like monk and paladin are more lawful and those that are more free form do what you want are more chaotic. Those with themes of helping others are good while those with themes of harming others are evil and the ones that don't fit into either are neutral.

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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: What alignment would you associate with each class

    Going just by a feeling (or in some cases, past "excuses" from the RAW)

    Artificer: (Chaotic) Neutral
    Barbarian: Chaotic Neutral/Evil
    Bard: Chaotic Good/Neutral
    Cleric: Any (same as their deity)
    Druid: Any Neutral
    Fighter: Lawful Neutral
    Monk: Any Lawful
    Paladin: Lawful Good
    Ranger: Chaotic/Neutral Good
    Rogue: (Chaotic) Neutral or Chaotic/Neutral Evil
    Sorcerer: Chaotic Neutral
    Warlock: Lawful Evil
    Wizard: True Neutral
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    Orc in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: What alignment would you associate with each class

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    Going just by a feeling (or in some cases, past "excuses" from the RAW)

    Artificer: (Chaotic) Neutral
    Barbarian: Chaotic Neutral/Evil
    Bard: Chaotic Good/Neutral
    Cleric: Any (same as their deity)
    Druid: Any Neutral
    Fighter: Lawful Neutral
    Monk: Any Lawful
    Paladin: Lawful Good
    Ranger: Chaotic/Neutral Good
    Rogue: (Chaotic) Neutral or Chaotic/Neutral Evil
    Sorcerer: Chaotic Neutral
    Warlock: Lawful Evil
    Wizard: True Neutral
    Looks like we're pretty much in agreement except for artificer, I guess you're thinking more of the mad scientist type artificer and I'm thinking more of the extremely precise and orderly scientist type of artificer. I've seen both in games and fiction but perhaps the former is a bit more common.

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    Default Re: What alignment would you associate with each class

    Artificer
    • Alchemist - neutral
    • Armorer - lawful neutral
    • Artillerist - lawful neutral
    • Battlesmith - lawful neutral


    Barbarian
    • Ancestral Guardian - neutral good
    • Battlerager - chaotic neutral
    • Beast - chaotic evil
    • Berserker - chaotic evil
    • Storm Herald - neutral
    • Totem Warrior - neutral good
    • Wild magic - chaotic neutral
    • Zealot - chaotic good or chaotic evil


    Bard
    • Creation - Lawful neutral
    • Eloquence - chaotic neutral
    • Glamor - chaotic neutral
    • Lore - lawful neutral
    • Spirits - neutral
    • Swords - neutral
    • Valor - chaotic good
    • Whispers - chaotic neutral


    Cleric
    • Arcana - lawful neutral
    • Death - chaotic evil
    • Forge - lawful neutral
    • Grave - lawful good
    • Knowledge - lawful neutral
    • Life - neutral good
    • Nature - neutral good
    • Order - lawful neutral
    • Peace - chaotic good
    • Tempest - chaotic evil
    • Trickery - chaotic evil
    • Twilight - lawful good
    • War - lawful evil


    Druid
    • Dreams - neutral
    • Land - neutral good
    • Moon - chaotic evil
    • Shepard - chaotic good
    • Spores - lawful evil
    • Stars - neutral
    • Wildfire - chaotic neutral


    Fighter
    • Arcane Archer - lawful neutral
    • Banneret - lol
    • Battlemaster - lawful neutral
    • Cavalier - lawful good
    • Champion - lawful good
    • Echo Knight - lawful evil
    • Eldritch Knight - lawful neutral
    • Psi Warrior - lawful neutral
    • Rune Knight - neutral
    • Samurai - lawful good


    Monk
    • Mercy - chaotic good
    • Ascendant Dragon - lawful good
    • Astral Self - lawful neutral
    • Drunken Master - chaotic neutral
    • Four Elements - lol
    • Kensei - lawful neutral
    • Long Death - lawful evil
    • Open Hand - lawful neutral
    • Shadow - lawful evil
    • Sun Soul - lawful good


    Paladin
    • Ancients - lawful good
    • Conquest - lawful evil
    • Crown - lawful neutral
    • Devotion - lawful good
    • Glory - lawful neutral
    • Redemption - neutral good
    • Vengeance - chaotic evil
    • Watchers - lawful good
    • Oathbreaker - chaotic evil


    Ranger
    • Beast Master - neutral
    • Drakewarden - neutral
    • Fey Wanderer - chaotic neutral
    • Gloom Stalker - neutral evil
    • Horizon Walker - neutral good
    • Hunter - neutral
    • Monster Slayer - neutral
    • Swarmkeeper - beees!


    Rogue
    • Arcane Trickster - chaotic neutral
    • Assassin - neutral evil
    • Inquisitive - lawful neutral
    • Mastermind - lawful neutral
    • Phantom - lawful evil
    • Scout - chaotic good
    • Soulknife - neutral
    • Swashbuckler - chaotic good
    • Thief - chaotic neutral


    Sorcerer
    • Aberrant Mind - chaotic evil
    • Clockwork Soul - lawful neutral
    • Draconic Bloodline - any non neutral
    • Divine Soul - chaotic good
    • Lunar Sorcery - neutral good
    • Shadow Magic - neutral evil
    • Storm Sorcery - chaotic neutral
    • Wild Magic - chaotic neutral


    Warlock
    • Archfey - chaotic neutral
    • Celestial - lawful good
    • Fathomless - unfathomable
    • Fiend - any evil
    • The genie - neutral
    • Great Old One - chaotic evil
    • Hexblade - lawful evil
    • Undead - lawful evil
    • Undying - neutral


    Wizard
    • Abjuration - lawful neutral
    • Bladesinging - chaotic neutral
    • Chronoturgy - lawful neutral
    • Conjuration - lawful neutral
    • Divination - lawful neutral
    • Enchantment - chaotic evil
    • Evocation - chaotic neutral
    • Graviturgy - lawful neutral
    • Illusion - chaotic neutral
    • Necromancy - lawful evil
    • Scribes - lawful neutral
    • Transmutation - lawful neutral
    • War Magic - lawful neutral
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    Default Re: What alignment would you associate with each class

    Way back, I made a group picture of the class symbols. And I actually chose the positions based on the Great Wheel and which classes I thought the Outer Planes would favor. So, as usual, Law to the left, Chaos to the right, Good up and Evil down.



    The artificer wasn't there yet. I might put it in the middle together with the wizard and the druid, or have it replace the monk as the poster child of Mechanus.

    Last edited by Millstone85; 2023-05-24 at 06:34 AM.
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    Default Re: What alignment would you associate with each class

    How I'd most likely be inclined to play them at this moment.

    Artificer: Chaotic good. Their annoying gismos used to ruin a BBEG's day or to play annoying pranks on their fellow adventures.

    Barbarian: True neutral, tending very slightly to the non permitted lawful. I'd definitely aim at some loyalty debt towards at least one ally pc to keep the barbarian in the party, but otherwise they would follow some moral code that is the product of their remote clan's strange (to outsiders) tradition and customes. Nothing too extreme, but certainly not familiar to "outsides", hence something like true neutral.

    Bard: Neutral evil (assuming I could play one seriously). Uncovering secrets, dealing in blackmail, spreading flase rumors, all that shady stuff. Plus a little mind control whenever possible. All while performing for crowds with a smile and promoting himself as a kind and caring person.

    Cleric: Lawful good or lawful evil. I am either playing the enlighened person who tries to make the world a better place, or I am playing the lowly scum who was recruited by some evil faith and is now looking to climb the ranks because having power feels good.

    Druid: Chaotic good. A power for good when heroes are needed. An unintentional source of trouble during peace time when being among "civilized" people with all their rules and boundaries.

    Fighter: Lawful good or lawful neutral. In all honestly, I'd play them similarly to some paladins. With a strict code. With the difference that I'd try to put some points in INT for adding a flavor of "militairy genius" if possible. So, a little paladin-like with smarter decisions on occasion.

    Monk: Lawful neutral or lawful evil. And sneaky in more than on way to get some fun out of it.

    Paladin: Any lawful. If lawful good, then emphasis on good. If lawful neutral, then I want to be a fanatic in some existing conflict that takes place in the game world. And if lawful evil, emphasis on being honorable (especially if part of an evil party). I'd try to play out a very strong personality (emphasis on high persuasion) in the neutral and evil cases. In the lawful good case, the character would just aim to serve as an example by their actions. The aim in all three cases being at building up the reputation of the character, with the distinct difference than if lawful good, then that aim would only be an OoC one.

    Ranger: Any neutral. Sword for hire. Cunning and edgy.

    Rogue: Any. Only rule being, whatever you do, you do it with style!

    Sorcerer: Any evil. Young, immature, hot headed, probably greedy, most likely with a superiority complex as well.

    Warlock: Either crazy (chaotic) evil, or with slight hints of creepy (neutral) evil. Essentially fiend or GOO. Hey, it's not my fault that pact magic allows me to use high level spells for killing commoners at reduced cost.

    Wizard: Lawful evil. Power hungry, but being smart about it. Or any neutral, and focus on showcasing th character as a genius and an artist (of their craft), most likely if going with an illusionist.
    Last edited by Corran; 2023-05-24 at 06:50 AM.
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    Default Re: What alignment would you associate with each class

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    Classes don't have alignments.
    This is the correct answer. I find the question to be a jarring mis read of what alignment represents, and what classes represent.
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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: What alignment would you associate with each class

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    This is the correct answer. I find the question to be a jarring mis read of what alignment represents, and what classes represent.
    I mean if you look at dnd 3.5 the classes literally have an alignment section talking about how for example barbarians are never lawful. So it's not that jarring. I know 5e you can do whatever I was just wondering what 1st came to mind for a monster slayer
    Last edited by BarbarianConan; 2023-05-24 at 01:01 PM.

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    Default Re: What alignment would you associate with each class

    Quote Originally Posted by BarbarianConan View Post
    I mean if you look at dnd 3.5
    But this is the D&D 5e sub forum. There are substantial differences.
    I was just wondering what 1st came to mind for a monster slayer
    Honestly? Nothing came to mind for that Ranger Sub class. Could be anything.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2023-05-24 at 01:34 PM.
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    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: What alignment would you associate with each class

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    But this is the D&D 5e sub forum. There are substantial differences. Honestly? Nothing came to mind for that Ranger Sub class. Could be anything.
    I know,I put I know 5e you can be whatever in the same post in a 5e sub. It was just an example

    And nothing coming to mind is still an acceptable answer. So thank you for answering.

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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: What alignment would you associate with each class

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    Artificer
    • Alchemist - neutral
    • Armorer - lawful neutral
    • Artillerist - lawful neutral
    • Battlesmith - lawful neutral


    Barbarian
    • Ancestral Guardian - neutral good
    • Battlerager - chaotic neutral
    • Beast - chaotic evil
    • Berserker - chaotic evil
    • Storm Herald - neutral
    • Totem Warrior - neutral good
    • Wild magic - chaotic neutral
    • Zealot - chaotic good or chaotic evil


    Bard
    • Creation - Lawful neutral
    • Eloquence - chaotic neutral
    • Glamor - chaotic neutral
    • Lore - lawful neutral
    • Spirits - neutral
    • Swords - neutral
    • Valor - chaotic good
    • Whispers - chaotic neutral


    Cleric
    • Arcana - lawful neutral
    • Death - chaotic evil
    • Forge - lawful neutral
    • Grave - lawful good
    • Knowledge - lawful neutral
    • Life - neutral good
    • Nature - neutral good
    • Order - lawful neutral
    • Peace - chaotic good
    • Tempest - chaotic evil
    • Trickery - chaotic evil
    • Twilight - lawful good
    • War - lawful evil


    Druid
    • Dreams - neutral
    • Land - neutral good
    • Moon - chaotic evil
    • Shepard - chaotic good
    • Spores - lawful evil
    • Stars - neutral
    • Wildfire - chaotic neutral


    Fighter
    • Arcane Archer - lawful neutral
    • Banneret - lol
    • Battlemaster - lawful neutral
    • Cavalier - lawful good
    • Champion - lawful good
    • Echo Knight - lawful evil
    • Eldritch Knight - lawful neutral
    • Psi Warrior - lawful neutral
    • Rune Knight - neutral
    • Samurai - lawful good


    Monk
    • Mercy - chaotic good
    • Ascendant Dragon - lawful good
    • Astral Self - lawful neutral
    • Drunken Master - chaotic neutral
    • Four Elements - lol
    • Kensei - lawful neutral
    • Long Death - lawful evil
    • Open Hand - lawful neutral
    • Shadow - lawful evil
    • Sun Soul - lawful good


    Paladin
    • Ancients - lawful good
    • Conquest - lawful evil
    • Crown - lawful neutral
    • Devotion - lawful good
    • Glory - lawful neutral
    • Redemption - neutral good
    • Vengeance - chaotic evil
    • Watchers - lawful good
    • Oathbreaker - chaotic evil


    Ranger
    • Beast Master - neutral
    • Drakewarden - neutral
    • Fey Wanderer - chaotic neutral
    • Gloom Stalker - neutral evil
    • Horizon Walker - neutral good
    • Hunter - neutral
    • Monster Slayer - neutral
    • Swarmkeeper - beees!


    Rogue
    • Arcane Trickster - chaotic neutral
    • Assassin - neutral evil
    • Inquisitive - lawful neutral
    • Mastermind - lawful neutral
    • Phantom - lawful evil
    • Scout - chaotic good
    • Soulknife - neutral
    • Swashbuckler - chaotic good
    • Thief - chaotic neutral


    Sorcerer
    • Aberrant Mind - chaotic evil
    • Clockwork Soul - lawful neutral
    • Draconic Bloodline - any non neutral
    • Divine Soul - chaotic good
    • Lunar Sorcery - neutral good
    • Shadow Magic - neutral evil
    • Storm Sorcery - chaotic neutral
    • Wild Magic - chaotic neutral


    Warlock
    • Archfey - chaotic neutral
    • Celestial - lawful good
    • Fathomless - unfathomable
    • Fiend - any evil
    • The genie - neutral
    • Great Old One - chaotic evil
    • Hexblade - lawful evil
    • Undead - lawful evil
    • Undying - neutral


    Wizard
    • Abjuration - lawful neutral
    • Bladesinging - chaotic neutral
    • Chronoturgy - lawful neutral
    • Conjuration - lawful neutral
    • Divination - lawful neutral
    • Enchantment - chaotic evil
    • Evocation - chaotic neutral
    • Graviturgy - lawful neutral
    • Illusion - chaotic neutral
    • Necromancy - lawful evil
    • Scribes - lawful neutral
    • Transmutation - lawful neutral
    • War Magic - lawful neutral
    Very nice list
    I appreciate it.

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    Default Re: What alignment would you associate with each class

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    Paladin
    • Ancients - lawful good
    • Conquest - lawful evil
    • Crown - lawful neutral
    • Devotion - lawful good
    • Glory - lawful neutral
    • Redemption - neutral good
    • Vengeance - chaotic evil
    • Watchers - lawful good
    • Oathbreaker - chaotic evil
    So, what makes you disagree with the PHB's claim that the oath of the Ancients "emphasizes the principles of good above any concerns of law or chaos" and that paladins of Vengeance "are often neutral or lawful neutral in alignment"?

    Actually, I am not surprised you would deny something called vengeance any shade of good or lawfulness. But I am curious about the ancient paladin.
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    Default Re: What alignment would you associate with each class

    I think the three PHB Paladin oaths map nicely to the three good alignments. Devotion - Lawful Good, Ancients - Neutral Good, Vengeance - Chaotic Good. It felt like a nice compromise between strictly pigeonholing the Paladin into Lawful Good, but still keeping Paladins = Good as important fluff. Conquest paladin (or the "I do whatever the *** I want Paladin, as I call it to my friends) is when they went off the rails for me.
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    Default Re: What alignment would you associate with each class

    Quote Originally Posted by BarbarianConan View Post
    And nothing coming to mind is still an acceptable answer. So thank you for answering.
    TBH, my gut feeling is that all of the Paladin classes probably ought to be played as Lawful something or Something Lawful, but as I read through the Ancients Paladin Oath the first few times, I got the feeling that it didn't have to be Lawful to work.

    EDIT:
    Oh ... and what Trask said. Missed seeing that before I answered.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2023-05-24 at 03:31 PM.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
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    Default Re: What alignment would you associate with each class

    Quote Originally Posted by Trask View Post
    I think the three PHB Paladin oaths map nicely to the three good alignments. Devotion - Lawful Good, Ancients - Neutral Good, Vengeance - Chaotic Good. It felt like a nice compromise between strictly pigeonholing the Paladin into Lawful Good, but still keeping Paladins = Good as important fluff. Conquest paladin (or the "I do whatever the *** I want Paladin, as I call it to my friends) is when they went off the rails for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    TBH, my gut feeling is that all of the Paladin classes probably ought to be played as Lawful something or Something Lawful, but as I read through the Ancients Paladin Oath the first few times, I got the feeling that it didn't have to be Lawful to work.

    EDIT:
    Oh ... and what Trask said. Missed seeing that before I answered.
    Vengeance always had a chaotic neutral flare to me. So, maybe Chaotic Neutral with Good tendencies? (to really call back ideas that are NOT at all present in 5E).

    @OP, Monster Slayer feels Neutral as a baseline, and then depending on what they concentrate on, add an ordinal. So, anti-Undead or Fiend is probably NG. Anti-monstrosity is probably TN or LN. Anti-metallic dragon, NE; anti-chromatic dragon, NG; anti-abomination, NG all the way to LG depending.
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    Default Re: What alignment would you associate with each class

    This is a difficult one because alignment is such a dumb concept to begin with. I literally makes no sense upon any inspection... but...

    Artificer: Hmmm... this is a tricky one. There is mad inventor (chaotic) and then meticulous inventor (lawful). Good is definitely a stretch, but then so is evil. I'm stuck with True Neutral.
    Barbarian: So, clearly chaotic (doesn't follow 'social norms'). This is probably the classic example of where D&D breaks down though. Even the word barbarian is inherently offensive with that offense drawing itself from the presupposition of cultural superiority. But that is where we are, so probably Chaotic Neutral.
    Bard: Skews chaotic. Evil bards just don't... make sense in the D&D milieu, so probably Chaotic Good
    Cleric: This one is literally meaningless. It is very deity dependent. That said, in the D&D world, the number of evil cultists does seem disproportionately high compared to the 'single good priest quest-hook', so maybe Neutral Evil?
    Druid: True neutral. This is the easiest one on the list. The traditional druid is completely 'amoral' because their standards follow the whim of nature which is neither good, nor evil, nor lawful, nor chaotic. Putting it in those terms is silly.
    Fighter: Another cleric. That said... most people are good-ish. Most players are fighers. Neutral Good. I made this up to fill up the chart below... obviously.
    Monk: Lawful. Too disciplined to be anything else and that was a 3/3.5 requirement. Again, because of cultural influences, I'm going with Lawful Neutral. What is, is, how do I know what is good and bad?
    Paladin: Finally. An easy one. Lawful Good. It is the whole point.
    Ranger: Ooh... Chaotic obviously because of the 'nature-loner-edgelord' vibe. I'm guessing it falls into Chaotic Good
    Rogue: Evil. Easily, evil. Actually, probably the easiest. Chaotic Evil. I mean... thief, assassin. These are evil lawbreaking professions.
    Sorcerer: Chaotic (wizard counterpoint). I feel like we're going neutral here too. There isn't enough colour to the sorcerer to get the good/bad divide. Chaotic Neutral
    Warlock: Evil. But we have a patron. Lawful Evil it is.
    Wizard: Lawful (sorcerer counterpoint). Lawful Neutral it is.

    Did we cover all bases:

    Lawful Good: Paladin
    Lawful Neutral: Monk, Wizard
    Lawful Evil: Warlock
    Neutral Good: Fighter
    True Neutral: Artificer, Druid
    Neutral Evil: Cleric
    Chaotic Good: Bard, Ranger
    Chaotic Neutral: Barbarian, Sorcerer
    Chaotic Evil: Rogue

    With a bit of contrivance...

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    Default Re: What alignment would you associate with each class

    Most are chaotic lootutral where their alignment is determined on which will give them the most stuff.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: What alignment would you associate with each class

    Quote Originally Posted by Theodoxus View Post
    Vengeance always had a chaotic neutral flare to me. So, maybe Chaotic Neutral with Good tendencies? (to really call back ideas that are NOT at all present in 5E).

    @OP, Monster Slayer feels Neutral as a baseline, and then depending on what they concentrate on, add an ordinal. So, anti-Undead or Fiend is probably NG. Anti-monstrosity is probably TN or LN. Anti-metallic dragon, NE; anti-chromatic dragon, NG; anti-abomination, NG all the way to LG depending.
    I still like Chaotic Good for Vengeance because they are still righteous, CN doesn't describe a righteous character IMO. IMO chaotic alignments tend towards "Might Makes Right" on the evil end and "The Ends Justify the Means" on the good end.
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    Default Re: What alignment would you associate with each class

    I can see that, though vengeance, no matter how it's couched, has a patina of selfishness that neutrality on the good/evil axis exhibits well. People don't tend to go on an avenging tirade because the guy down the street they've never spoken to was killed by rampaging orcs. It's always* something personal that sets them off.

    *I'm happy to modify that to 'almost always' if there are any examples in life or literature where a vengeance streak is started because some random stranger had some misfortune that just set the protagonist off.
    Last edited by Theodoxus; 2023-05-25 at 02:37 PM.
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    Default Re: What alignment would you associate with each class

    Quote Originally Posted by Theodoxus View Post
    I can see that, though vengeance, no matter how it's couched, has a patina of selfishness that neutrality on the good/evil axis exhibits well. People don't tend to go on an avenging tirade because the guy down the street they've never spoken to was killed by rampaging orcs. It's always* something personal that sets them off.

    *I'm happy to modify that to 'almost always' if there are any examples in life or literature where a vengeance streak is started because some random stranger had some misfortune that just set the protagonist off.
    Yeah I'd agree with that assessment, the further one goes from Law the more selfish, or at least individualistic, the behavior. The difference between a CG and a CN Avenger to me would be that the CN only cares about getting revenge for their hurts or cathartically soothe their pain, whereas a CG wants to get revenge, and make sure it never happens to anyone else.

    Both are selfish enough to see themselves somewhat as the center of the world in varying degrees.
    Last edited by Trask; 2023-05-25 at 02:50 PM.

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    Default Re: What alignment would you associate with each class

    Several commentors have put Rogue into the Evil category and I think that's a gross misrepresentation of what the Class actually is or can do. Likewise with some of the other categorizations, but Rogue in particular rubs me the wrong way because for me the Rogue (since 3e at least) has been the "generic adventurer" Class. Are they a Magic User? No, but they can dabble in it if they want to. Are they a Warrior? No, but they can hold their own in a fight (especially if they can use their smarts to manipulate the situation to their advantage). Are they the best at anything in particular? Well...not really, but they're pretty much above the average across the board. It's why they're often disparaged in TO circles because that particular echo chamber focuses heavily on specialisation over generalisation (and rightfully so, IMO).

    Where this relates to alignment in particular, is that the Rogue, being a Class that is fairly generic in its implementation, if not moreso than other classes (the only Class more generic than Rogue IMO is the Fighter and that because it inherently has a "war-footing" that draws it away from Good alignments to my mind, where the Rogue is merely a skilled individual in one way or another) adheres to the principle of Class and Aligment having little to no relation that other posters have correctly brought up.

    The notion that the Rogue is, must be or should be assumed to be a thief or criminal (regardless of subclass, including Assassin; a name is just a name and frequently has little bearing on what the owner of that subclass does wirh it) was barely a thing in 2ed and was entirely discarded (to my mind) by the time 3e came about, let alone the more recent editions.

    Oh and @Mastikator: Moon Druids = Chaotic Evil? Really? I'm intrigued by your reasoning on that one! I get zero CE vibes from Moon Druid bar the very thin connection to lycanthropy and even they (lycans) are on shaky ground as regards to required or neccessary alingment.
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    Default Re: What alignment would you associate with each class

    If you believe there should be agriculture, cities and roads you are lawful.
    Every class except barbarians and druids is lawful.
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    Default Re: What alignment would you associate with each class

    Quote Originally Posted by Xihirli View Post
    If you believe there should be agriculture, cities and roads you are lawful.
    Every class except barbarians and druids is lawful.
    Rangers.

    Also scout rogues.

    ...ancients paladin.
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    Default Re: What alignment would you associate with each class

    Quote Originally Posted by JellyPooga View Post
    Several commentors have put Rogue into the Evil category and I think that's a gross misrepresentation of what the Class actually is or can do.
    Rogues have two abilities which explicitly mention thievery (proficiency and thieves cant). It is difficult to reconcile that proficiency with anything except breaking the law, and as much as people try to separate breaking the law from good and evil (i.e. the law/chaos spectrum), theft is at some level an evil action. Now you can use it for good ends, but we're already in murky territory.

    Their primary ability however is sneak attack. This ability, is as the name suggests, something whose greatest utility is when attacking someone unawares. This is definitely dishonourable according to any basic definition of honour (at least the common ones) and is at its core an 'assassin-like' ability. Another word with very evil overtones.

    ---

    If we compare it to fighter. Well, who are fighters? It is very easy to be a soldier, or a guard or some other security-based (and defensively-based) martial character. While war is a complex topic, in general, it is easy to reconcile being a soldier, guard or similar profession without leaning into the cut-throat mercenary type. So fighter are at least more neutral and generally skew 'good-ish'.

    Now, I don't agree with what I am saying to be honest. Guarding treasure for a rich person is its own form of theft. War is just murder with fancy words around it etc. But this is where this reading comes from.

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    Default Re: What alignment would you associate with each class

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    Rangers.

    Also scout rogues.

    ...ancients paladin.
    Rangers and Scout Rogues are frontierspeople, on the edge if civilization and wilderness. They are either making the wilderness safe to become civilization or keeping both safe from the other. Range from lawful to neutral.
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    Default Re: What alignment would you associate with each class

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobahfish View Post
    Rogues have two abilities which explicitly mention thievery (proficiency and thieves cant). It is difficult to reconcile that proficiency with anything except breaking the law, and as much as people try to separate breaking the law from good and evil (i.e. the law/chaos spectrum), theft is at some level an evil action. Now you can use it for good ends, but we're already in murky territory.
    If only to play the devil's advocate, Thieves Cant is just a name for a secret language. Change the name, change the feature. Call it Doublespeak, Ranger Tongue, Drow Sign Language, Insinuation or any other hidden or subtle language and nothing in the function of the ability changes except who is using it. If you want to call this a houserule, you'd be within your rights to do so, but I've yet to encounter a GM that didn't alow it at their table.

    "Thieves Tools" are also misnamed IMO. There are any number of legitimate professions that have need of tools for picking locks or disarming traps. Law enforcement, entertainers (specifically escape artists) and anyone involved in home defence (e.g. locksmiths), let alone those who learn it out of interest or as a hobby, might have use for such equipment. Just because a thief might use a hammer to break a lock does not mean that every carpenter or blacksmith should be tarred with the same brush.

    Their primary ability however is sneak attack. This ability, is as the name suggests, something whose greatest utility is when attacking someone unawares. This is definitely dishonourable according to any basic definition of honour (at least the common ones) and is at its core an 'assassin-like' ability. Another word with very evil overtones.
    Again, what makes this any less "honourable" than e.g. Precision Strike, another clearly valid interpetation of what Sneak Attack actually is, as opposed to the overtone of what it's called in the book? The actual function of the feature is to give its user additional damage whenever they have an advantage in combat. Yes, "sneaking" is one way to do this and that carries certain negative connotations, but is far from the only one. You might also call it Master Stroke, Combat Flourish or any number of non-criminal or non-murderous names and be equally applicable.

    If we compare it to fighter. Well, who are fighters? It is very easy to be a soldier, or a guard or some other security-based (and defensively-based) martial character. While war is a complex topic, in general, it is easy to reconcile being a soldier, guard or similar profession without leaning into the cut-throat mercenary type. So fighter are at least more neutral and generally skew 'good-ish'.
    If we apply the same standard to the Fighter as you have the Rogue, then even Extra Attack has overtly aggressive overtones. How about the Barbarian and their Rage? Yet both of those classes have been universally pegged in the Neutral category, let alone the Paladin and their Smites (both feature and spell). Compare this to other features of the Rogue such as Uncanny Dodge or Evasion, which are explicitly defensive in nature. In many respects, the Rogue can be seen as a defensive, less aggressive Class that has a single feature that allows it to exploit weakness in combat. For the vast majority of the Rogues features and their actual function, they are a survivor, not an aggressor.

    Ask what the Rogue is good at; running away (Cunning Action), evading damage (Uncanny Dodge, Evasion) or control (Slippery Mind) and being good at their selected fields (Expertise, Reliable Talent). Are any of those features explicitly "evil" or even have a negative connotation? The fact that Sneak Attack is prominent on the Class table goes a long way towards misinforming the reader as to what the Rogue is or is capable of; the reality is that Sneak Attack is, perhaps, the least of the Rogues (non-ribbon) class features, serving only to keep pace in the DPR game compared to those better suited to it.

    In short, Rogues have a bad rep because their PR isn't very good...or perhaps because they like it that way
    I apologise if I come across daft. I'm a bit like that. I also like a good argument, so please don't take offence if I'm somewhat...forthright.

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    Default Re: What alignment would you associate with each class

    Quote Originally Posted by JellyPooga View Post
    If only to play the devil's advocate, <snip> For the vast majority of the Rogues features and their actual function, they are a survivor, not an aggressor.

    Ask what the Rogue is good at; running away (Cunning Action), evading damage (Uncanny Dodge, Evasion) or control (Slippery Mind) and being good at their selected fields (Expertise, Reliable Talent). Are any of those features explicitly "evil" or even have a negative connotation? The fact that Sneak Attack is prominent on the Class table goes a long way towards misinforming the reader as to what the Rogue is or is capable of; the reality is that Sneak Attack is, perhaps, the least of the Rogues (non-ribbon) class features, serving only to keep pace in the DPR game compared to those better suited to it.
    So, one of the things that is interesting about this topic more broadly is that where the natural place for some classes to end up does seem to say a lot about preconceived notions about good/evil, law/chaos etc. For example, most people throw bard into chaos. Why? Because they are stereotypically gregarious? They are 'emotional' types which 'lawful' types clash with. Barbarians have a bit of a 'noble' savage vibe going on which ameliorates the 'evil' connotation but again 'rage' = chaos is a secondary meme (i.e., we've chosen to make this connection and then glued them together rather than it being obviously an illegal attitude).

    For rogue, I think you are right in the sense that they are artificially maligned. The Expert sidekick class is actually closer to what I would hope the rogue was both in flavour and mechanics. Here we have cunning action, a neat help action and coordinated strike (basically sneak attack with different requirements and a nicer name). Even the word 'Rogue' is pejorative. The sneak attack aesthetic is the main thing that drives me off playing rogues because of the incentives it places on character actions. The swashbuckler is better carried by the battle-master with parry and riposte than the rogue (except for all the add-ons like uncanny dodge and cunning action). Now a rogue with superiority dice instead of sneak-attack would be an interesting mod-build.

    Quote Originally Posted by JellyPooga View Post
    In short, Rogues have a bad rep because their PR isn't very good...or perhaps because they like it that way
    They are slowly working on it. After all sneak attack was originally 'back-stab'...

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    Default Re: What alignment would you associate with each class

    To borrow an old rodent allusion, "Rangers are just Rogues with good PR."

    But for me:

    On the Side of Order: Artificer, Paladin, Wizard
    On the Side of Chaos: Barbarian, Sorcerer, Warlock
    On the Side of Balance: Druid, Monk, Ranger
    On the Side of Not Giving A Damn About Cosmology: Bard, Fighter, Rogue

    ...With Clerics beholden to their deity's alignment.

    (This really makes me want to set up some sort of Warrior, Caster, Expert x Order, Balance, Chaos system.)
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