Divine Soul: Spirit Guardians and Twin Thorn Whip

[5eNeedsDarksun]

So, what do you guys think about a Divine Soul Sorcerer casting Spirit Guardians and trying to drag 2 enemies into range by Twinning Thorn Whip? Of course there's always the option to have a 3rd bite at the cherry with TK.
There's not too much to the build, except I would need a feat or a Druid level (or 2 levels of Ranger which seems like a lot unless I'm getting something else good out of it).
I'm just a little wary of actually trying to drag enemies towards a character with d6 hp and no armor. Probably need to mitigate that somehow.

[Matt4]

You could also get 1 level of Nature Cleric to easily gain both Thorn Whip and heavy armor (and one more skill!)

[5eNeedsDarksun]

You could also get 1 level of Nature Cleric to easily gain both Thorn Whip and heavy armor (and one more skill!)

Yeah that seems more efficient if I was going the Dip method.

[CTurbo]

I can't recommend Spirit Guardians on a Divine Sorcerer for the reasons you already mentioned.

[Sherlockpwns]

As previously posted a 1 level dip will give you all the AC you need and the HP thing isn’t a big deal. So you’ll have a few less HP than a cleric. Probably any hit that would down you would also down them at any level.

The bigger problem I see is wasting a lot of time, energy, and thought on thorn whip.

To get any benefit from the whip you would have to be unable to just walk up to your targets. I think it would be incredibly rare to have two targets just out of reach where a twin thorn whip will make the difference; and for what? 3d8 damage? More if you upcast.

Don’t get me wrong I think SG is insanely strong on a sorcerer. And I think thorn whip is a fun way to get an extra hit in with them sometimes; but odds are you’ll be better off quickening thorn whip and taking the dodge action than twinning it in almost all encounters. (Or quickening some heavy hitter spell and casting thorn whip as an action).

Anyway I guess my point is it’s a nice trick to have in the bag, but I’d be thinking about other spells you could be casting as bonus actions via quicken while dodging. If you play with it, vortex warp for instance, later scatter, but even something simple like going for a martial sorcerer could allow you to booming blade someone in the aoe.

[animorte]

I think you've already got the best answer you'll get, provided you're dedicated to this concept.

To accomplish this, I would instead prefer to go Warlock, Eldritch Blast, Grasp of Hadar, maybe even Cloak of Flies.

[Mastikator]

Don't take Spirit Guardians, take Aura of Vitality and the extend metamagic. For 1 sorcery point you can add another 70 healing out of combat.

[Sherlockpwns]

Don't take Spirit Guardians, take Aura of Vitality and the extend metamagic. For 1 sorcery point you can add another 70 healing out of combat.

I don’t think it’s an either / or situation? Nothing wrong with your suggestion other than it’s not at all what the thread is about. Lol

[Mastikator]

I don’t think it’s an either / or situation? Nothing wrong with your suggestion other than it’s not at all what the thread is about. Lol

With the sorcerer's limited spell selection I think basically every spell is an either/or situation.

[Gignere]

As previously posted a 1 level dip will give you all the AC you need and the HP thing isn’t a big deal. So you’ll have a few less HP than a cleric. Probably any hit that would down you would also down them at any level.

The bigger problem I see is wasting a lot of time, energy, and thought on thorn whip.

To get any benefit from the whip you would have to be unable to just walk up to your targets. I think it would be incredibly rare to have two targets just out of reach where a twin thorn whip will make the difference; and for what? 3d8 damage? More if you upcast.

Don’t get me wrong I think SG is insanely strong on a sorcerer. And I think thorn whip is a fun way to get an extra hit in with them sometimes; but odds are you’ll be better off quickening thorn whip and taking the dodge action than twinning it in almost all encounters. (Or quickening some heavy hitter spell and casting thorn whip as an action).

Anyway I guess my point is it’s a nice trick to have in the bag, but I’d be thinking about other spells you could be casting as bonus actions via quicken while dodging. If you play with it, vortex warp for instance, later scatter, but even something simple like going for a martial sorcerer could allow you to booming blade someone in the aoe.

Walking into them doesn’t double dip your SG damage. If you force movement them into SG you do. Once when they enter the SG and at the start of their turn. At least I think that was the ruling favored by one of the devs.

Anyway yeah I think a hexblade dip does this better with Grasp of Hadar. Saves you from needing to even use twin but is a 2 level investment, instead of 1.

[RogueJK]

Also consider that with Magic Initiate: Druid or a Druid/Cleric dip, your Thorn Whip is going to be relying on WIS while your Spirit Guardians (and all the rest of your Sorcerer spellcasting) is going to be relying on CHA.

Are you going to have the ability scores to support two different spellcasting stats?


Grabbing either 1 level of Warlock and the Eldritch Adept feat, or two levels of Warlock, is a potentially better option to get a CHA-based cantrip pull via Grasp of Hadar. Although that couldn't be Twinned.

Otherwise, while it's a steeper investment, 3 levels of Tomelock could get you CHA-based Thorn Whip.


The Telekinetic feat is another means to get a CHA-based pull effect, but it involves less movement and couldn't be Twinned. However, since it's a Bonus Action, you could combo it with Grasp of Hadar Eldritch Blast as your action to potentially affect two enemies per turn.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Walking into them doesnÂ’t double dip your SG damage. If you force movement them into SG you do. Once when they enter the SG and at the start of their turn. At least I think that was the ruling favored by one of the devs.

Anyway yeah I think a hexblade dip does this better with Grasp of Hadar. Saves you from needing to even use twin but is a 2 level investment, instead of 1.

I'm not a huge Warlock guy, so had to look this up. Grasp of Hadar specifies 1/ turn, so as much as the ability scores work out better on this one, I think I'd be stuck with 1 pull effect (+ potentially a BA with something like TK).

The Nature Cleric idea is definitely MAD since I'd be having to cast Thorn Whip off Wis; it's one thing to need a 13 just to muliti-class, but in this case it needs to be a functional score.

I kind of think I'm back to a feat to get a cantrip with a twinned pulling effect, and probably a dip of some sort to at least get armor. HP are still going to be bad, but a less MAD character can invest in Con, and Divine Soul has a few spells to add hp, like Aid, and mitigate damage.

For those not sure of the why here, potential damage for twinning thorn whip + TK as a BA into Spirit Guardians at 5th level is 2d6 (thorn whip) +6d8 (SG) on 2 opponents and 6d8 on the 3rd for TK.

[RogueJK]

Well, there's one bad (albeit less MAD) option for a Twinnable CHA-based forced movement cantrip: Infestation. It's twinnable. It's on the Sorcerer list. It doesn't require a feat, or a dip, or boosting a second spellcasting stat. But the forced movement is random. Still, with the right positioning and luck, you could theoretically force two enemies to move 5' into your SG radius with one Action.

[RogueJK]

Or, how about focusing on an alternative Concentration spell than Spirit Guardians, like Moonbeam. Cast in a 3rd level slot it does 3d10 damage per tick instead of 3d8. While it's a smaller radius, unlike Spirit Guardians it doesn't have to emanate from yourself, so you're not locked into just pulling enemies into it... There are a number of other options for pushing rather than pulling.

Watchers and Ancients Paladins both get CHA-based Moonbeam, and a Sorcadin could twin the Gust cantrip for dual shove effects.

Or you could pair Moonbeam with something like Repelling Blast for multiple shove effects with one Action, without needing to burn points on Twinning.

Or just use a bludgeoning weapon with the Crusher feat's shove effect.


Less useful overall than SG since it takes an action to reposition rather than moving along with you, but also doesn't require trying to juggle either two primary spellcasting stats.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Or, how about focusing on an alternative Concentration spell than Spirit Guardians, like Moonbeam. Cast in a 3rd level slot it does 3d10 damage per tick instead of 3d8. While it's a smaller radius, unlike Spirit Guardians it doesn't have to emanate from yourself, so you're not locked into just pulling enemies into it... There are a number of other options for pushing rather than pulling.

Watchers and Ancients Paladins both get CHA-based Moonbeam, and a Sorcadin could twin the Gust cantrip for dual shove effects.

Or you could pair Moonbeam with something like Repelling Blast for multiple shove effects with one Action, without needing to burn points on Twinning.

Or just use a bludgeoning weapon with the Crusher feat's shove effect.


Less useful overall than SG since it takes an action to reposition rather than moving along with you, but also doesn't require trying to juggle either two primary spellcasting stats or taking a large dip into another class to avoid the MADness.

Fair logic. There's definitely something to be said for moving things away from you with a d6 character as well.

[RogueJK]

Cloud of Daggers, Wall of Fire, and Spike Growth are the other big "pull/push enemies into it" spells, and all are available on CHA-based characters for either twinnable Gust or multi-EB-shove. CoD is a Sorcerer and Warlock spells, WoF is a Sorcerer and Celestial/Fiend Warlock spell, and Spike Growth is available to Dao Genie Warlocks.

[Theodoxus]

If you're not totally married to the sorcerer idea, there's also the ability to grab Twinned Spell via the metamagic feat... Sure, it's usable fewer times per day, but I'm not sure how often you want to pull off your 'double scorpion' pull. But going Nature Cleric gets you more HP, more spells known, is SAD; especially if you go Dwarf so you're not worried about strength and heavy armor...

[Gignere]

Well, there's one bad (albeit less MAD) option for a Twinnable CHA-based forced movement cantrip: Infestation. It's twinnable. It's on the Sorcerer list. It doesn't require a feat, or a dip, or boosting a second spellcasting stat. But the forced movement is random. Still, with the right positioning and luck, you could theoretically force two enemies to move 5' into your SG radius with one Action.

Sorcerers has access to lightning lure as well. It’s a save though but I believe it can be twinned.

[RogueJK]

Sorcerers has access to lightning lure as well. It’s a save though but I believe it can be twinned.

The issue is that Lightning Lure has the same 15' range as Spirit Guardians' 15' radius, so LL couldn't be used to drag someone into your SG to force immediate damage, like the OP is wanting.

(And since it isn't an attack roll spell it can't be used with Spell Sniper for longer range. It could be used with the Distant Spell metamagic to increase its range, but then it couldn't be Twinned.)

[Witty Username]

Mage armor and shield is a solution to the AC problems, at least.

As is a level dip in hexblade.

Notably, two levels in Ranger gets you the armor and a hp bump, without the metal restriction of druid. and the support spells you get off of ranger are actually pretty good.

[Talionis]

Why aren’t you thinking of Quicken spell?

[RogueJK]

Why aren’t you thinking of Quicken spell?

The OP is planning to use their Bonus Action for the Telekinetic feat's forced movement. They're trying to squeeze out three pull effects per turn, so Action Twin Cantrip for 2 and then BA Telekinetic for the 3rd.

Also, Quickening a cantrip is more expensive than Twinning a cantrip. 2x SP vs. just 1x SP.

[verbatim]

As previously posted a 1 level dip will give you all the AC you need and the HP thing isn’t a big deal. So you’ll have a few less HP than a cleric. Probably any hit that would down you would also down them at any level.

To get any benefit from the whip you would have to be unable to just walk up to your targets. I think it would be incredibly rare to have two targets just out of reach where a twin thorn whip will make the difference.

If you get double distance Thorn Whip via Spell Sniper (using CHA!) I can see a lot of instances where you would be able to pull one unit 3 times.

[RogueJK]

If you get double distance Thorn Whip via Spell Sniper (using CHA!)

You can't get CHA-based Thorn Whip via Spell Sniper.

The Spell Sniper feat allows you to pick an attack roll cantrip from any spell list, but the cantrip's spellcasting stat is governed by the class list it's chosen from. So Thorn Whip gained via Spell Sniper would still be WIS-based, since it's being chosen from the Druid spell list, even if the feat is taken by a Sorcerer.

"You learn one cantrip that requires an attack roll. Choose the cantrip from the bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard spell list. Your spellcasting ability for this cantrip depends on the spell list you chose from: Charisma for bard, sorcerer, and warlock; Wisdom for cleric or druid; or Intelligence for wizard."


(The only other class spell list besides Druid that contains the Thorn Whip cantrip is Artificer, but Artificer isn't an option for Spell Sniper, and even if it was it would be INT-based anyway.)

[Chronos]

Another point to consider with Warlock: You can get both Grasp of Hadar and Repelling Blast. That way, if your target is already in the area of Spirit Guardians, you can push them out and then pull them right back in again, and still double-dip.

And if you want a resourceless option for this same trick, you can take the Create Bonfire cantrip (which is on both the sorcerer's and warlock's list).

[King Owlbear]

If you're worried about HPS consider taking the inspiring leader feat. It effectively increases the whole parties hit die by one size.
Aid can also help but with limited spells known it can be tricky to fit it in to a build.
Another trick is to use quicken on thorn whip and then use your action to dodge.