New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Results 1 to 22 of 22
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Titan in the Playground
     
    J-H's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Cleric/Paladin multiclass

    For my BG2 game, one of the possible (albeit less likely) NPCs for the party to pick up is someone who wanted to be a paladin, but couldn't get sponsorship because his dad is a jerk... so he ended up coming up through the paladin order as a squire/cleric. If he doesn't screw up due to bad advice, he gets knighted into the order at some point.

    Mechanically, I'd like to represent that with Paladin levels.

    War Cleric 8/Paladin 12
    As A Vuman starting with a slightly modified array of 15/14/13/13/9/9, and putting his ASIs into Heavy Armor Master +ability boosts, I can get Str, Wis, and Cha at 18, Con at 14, and Dex/Int at 10 each. Not maxed out, but acceptably high.

    Extra Attack + Improved Divine Smite means he can attack 2/rd with +1d8 radiant damage, and from War Cleric Divine Smite, he gets a free bonus 1d8 on one of those attacks. 4x/day, he can also make a 3rd melee attack as a BA. For base damage, he's certainly keeping up with a full paladin in melee, and has more spell slots (1 7th, 1 6th, 2 5th, 3 4th, etc.) and access to higher-level cleric spells.

    Aside from being somewhat MAD, and having a less powerful list than a Sorcadin, I'm not seeing any issues with this aside from some of the melee capabilities (Extra Attack) coming online very late as he transitions from cleric who melees to paladin who casts. Am I overlooking something?

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2016

    Default Re: Cleric/Paladin multiclass

    Well you've basically picked up on all the shortcomings yourself.

    The biggest one is how MAD it is.
    Yes you can eventually get to some halfway reasonable stats. But you're wading through treacle for a LOT of levels beforehand. For this reason alone, paladin/cleric is best served when you've rolled for stats and have been lucky enough to get a handful of above average rolls.
    Personally I'd rather see Paladin as a WIS class because cleric is an obviously better fit for multiclassing, and considerably less OP than sorcadin. But there we are.

    And yeah, secondly you've got a painfully late second attack. So you start out being a pretty meh cleric, then you wait an age before becoming an even more meh paladin.
    The last 5 levels or so will be fun, but then almost any PC at levels 15 and up will have enough juice in the tank to be a laugh even if they're not optimised.

    If the concept is fun and you think you'll enjoy playing it then go for it. But I've tried to make this multiclass work before as well amd it was just too frustrating. It feels behind the curve for way too much of the game.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Aimeryan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2016

    Default Re: Cleric/Paladin multiclass

    Mechanically, the only reasons to go Paladin is for a) lolrandom nova; b) Aura of Protection. Otherwise, the casting part of Paladin is very poor, with Bless often being optimal. The fighting part is better done by a Fighter. The defensive part is better done by casters too, heh - but also Paladins can't naturally support ranged attacks, so you are stuck going melee.

    Most people consider a) bad for the game, and it really doesn't come up enough to be worth going for fun in my opinion. Going for b) on the other hand is often consider optimal for a party to have because of bad scaling on Saves otherwise. After that, yeah Warlock for Eldritch Blast and then Sorcadin tends to make most sense due to being SAD rather than MAD (Cleric). Metamagic helps too, with Quicken being good on Eldritch Blast or the SCAG melee cantrips if you wish to risk melee.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Titan in the Playground
     
    J-H's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Cleric/Paladin multiclass

    This character is drawing from Baldur's Gate II, which was 2eish.
    Originally the character was a Fighter 7 (for extra attack/rd) multiclassed to cleric... doesn't work so well in 5e.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Troll in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    May 2019

    Default Re: Cleric/Paladin multiclass

    It seems fine to me, how smooth does the progression have to be?

    And it sounds a little like you might be better off making an NPC block/modifying an existing one instead perhaps? Is this NPC meant to be on par with PC power?

    I've never played BG, bit before my time, but I've been following your campaign logs since Castelvania and it seems really interesting so far.
    For D&D 5e Builds, Tips, News and more see our Youtube Channel Dork Forge

    Feel free to message for any build requests or challenges

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Titan in the Playground
     
    J-H's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Cleric/Paladin multiclass

    If they bring him along (and they may not, already having a cleric), that depends on if he's with the party full time or if he goes off and does his own thing. I assume he's adventuring in the background, but I want the party to be around to help him either screw up or not mess up a family vengeance arc. If he makes the wrong choice, he gets kicked out of the paladin order and goes Chaotic Neutral. In that case, he stays full cleric and one fanfiction had him follow the Red Lady of Strategy.

    I am going for PC-level power and abilities. When he does get Paladin, I could also convert some levels from Cleric to Paladin, although I think 8/12 is a good breakpoint in terms of spell slots (7th level), ASIs, and getting +radiant damage to hit from two sources. NPCs are getting rendered into a Monster Manual style block that fits on one page for ease of use.

    Spoiler: Example, not being used
    Show

    Imoen, Female Human Rogue/Wizard
    Medium Humanoid
    Armor Class 13 (before armor)
    Hit Points 14
    Speed 30 ft.
    Str Dex Con Int Wis Cha
    9(-1) 16(+3) 12(+1) 16(+3) 10(0) 16(+3)
    Saves Dex +5, Int +5
    Skills Acrobatics +5, Arcana +5, Disguise Kit +8, Forgery +5, Investigation +7, Perception +2, Sleight of Hand +5, Stealth +5, Thieves Tools +5
    Senses Passive Perception 12
    Languages Common, Draconic, Thieves’ Cant, Elvish
    Proficiencies Light armor, simple weapons, hand xbow, shortsword
    Arcane Recovery. Recover a 1st level spell slot on a short rest. 1/LR
    Sneak Attack. +1d6
    Actions
    Dagger (melee). Melee Weapon Attack, +5 to hit, 5’, 1d4+3 piercing damage.
    Dagger (thrown). Ranged Weapon Attack, +5 to hit, 20’/60’, 1d6+3 piercing damage.
    Shortbow. Ranged Weapon Attack, +5 to hit, 80’/320’, 1d6+3 piercing damage.

    Spellcasting. DC 13, Spell attack +5
    [] [] 1st level
    Attack
    1 Magic Missile (120’, 1d4+1 x 3 force)
    1 Burning Hands (15’ cone, 3d6 fire, Dex half)
    Control
    1 Grease (1 min, 10’ square difficult terrain, on cast, enter area, or end turn in area, Dex save or prone)
    1 Sleep (5d8 HD of enemies fall asleep)
    Utility
    Light
    Mage Hand (30’)
    Prestidigitation (10’)
    Bonus Actions
    Dagger (if TWF). Melee Weapon Attack, +5 to hit, 5’, 1d4 piercing damage


    Given the party is mostly pragmatic neutral leaning vaguely good-ish when convenient...again. I think his greeting may also put them off. It's too good to not use as-written.
    "Strangers! Perhaps you have more courage than the worms that frequent this pit of corruption. I am Anomen, warrior priest of Helm. What is your name?"
    followed by things along the lines of
    "Is your heart filled with courage or be it steeped in cowardice?"
    And if they reject him
    "So be it! If you seek to right the wrongs of this blighted land, then I am the man you should to speak to. Methinks I shall still be here searching in vain for adventurers of merit. "

    He's got a bit of an arrogance problem... although if you follow his character arc, he mellows out as he steps out of his father's shadow, proves himself a man, and gets a chance to make a difference instead of just being frustrated. He was really annoying as a teenager, but as a 40 year old, I like him a lot.

    So this may be un-used theorycrafting, but it's still fun :)
    Last edited by J-H; 2023-05-24 at 09:58 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Nobody in the Playground Moderator
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Cleric/Paladin multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by J-H View Post
    For my BG2 game, one of the possible (albeit less likely) NPCs for the party to pick up is someone who wanted to be a paladin, but couldn't get sponsorship because his dad is a jerk... so he ended up coming up through the paladin order as a squire/cleric. If he doesn't screw up due to bad advice, he gets knighted into the order at some point.

    Mechanically, I'd like to represent that with Paladin levels.

    War Cleric 8/Paladin 12
    As A Vuman starting with a slightly modified array of 15/14/13/13/9/9, and putting his ASIs into Heavy Armor Master +ability boosts, I can get Str, Wis, and Cha at 18, Con at 14, and Dex/Int at 10 each. Not maxed out, but acceptably high.

    Extra Attack + Improved Divine Smite means he can attack 2/rd with +1d8 radiant damage, and from War Cleric Divine Smite, he gets a free bonus 1d8 on one of those attacks. 4x/day, he can also make a 3rd melee attack as a BA. For base damage, he's certainly keeping up with a full paladin in melee, and has more spell slots (1 7th, 1 6th, 2 5th, 3 4th, etc.) and access to higher-level cleric spells.

    Aside from being somewhat MAD, and having a less powerful list than a Sorcadin, I'm not seeing any issues with this aside from some of the melee capabilities (Extra Attack) coming online very late as he transitions from cleric who melees to paladin who casts. Am I overlooking something?
    Half-Elf with 15,14,14,12,8,8 point buy gets you-

    15 Str, 8 Dex, 14 Con, 8 Int, 16 Wis, 14 Cha at level 1

    Start with 8 straight levels of Cleric, literally any domain but War since it's weak. Take HAM(+1Str) at level 4, and +2 Cha at level 8

    Starting at level 9, you go all Paladin from there. Probably Vengeance. Stats are 16 Str, 8 Dex, 14 Con, 8 Int, 16 Wis, 16 Cha

    Paladin 4,8, and 12 gets you 18 in Str, Wis, and Cha or you could go 20, 18, and 16. It's worth noting that it *should* be easy to come across a Belt of Giant Strength at some point between levels 1-20 so you could probably get away with never raising Str past 16.

    I'd be temped to sacrifice one ASI and go Cleric 9/Paladin 11 for 5th level Cleric spells/slots.

    Out of all the Cleric domains that give you Heavy Armor prof, War would be my last pick. It's just really lacking.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2017

    Default Re: Cleric/Paladin multiclass

    Any chance of him starting as a Paladin, then his dad making a mess of things and him becoming a Cleric (almost as a form of penance)? Because a Pally 5/Cleric 1 works fine as a character, so do more Cleric levels afterwards for more spells and slots and smites.

    Then, when he's finally shown the rightousness of his endeavour, regardless of his old man cocking it up for him, he gets aura of protection as his next pally level, to show "he's back, and better than ever!".

    Even pally 2, then Cleric X, then gaining his vow on his re-entrance to the class works fine. So, he was one, a junior one, but his dad spoke up about something, or did something, so he went into the priesthood to show his devotion to some concepts/ gods/ goals. But with a bit more divine smackdown'nyness than the average cleric has that was never a Pally. And he *really* thinks he should be one, but has accepted his fate for now, knowing that he *will* prove himself worthy of the honour, in the long run.

    Do they have to meet him as a lvl1 NPC? Because lvl3 would work fine, mechanically, story-wise, and in the longer run too.
    Last edited by sambojin; 2023-05-25 at 07:31 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2019

    Default Re: Cleric/Paladin multiclass

    I don't know BG, but he doesn't sound like he's got much WIS (especially early) - maybe keep that stat low-ish. You can still be effective as a cleric w/ a crap spell attack / save. Then you can put more resources in CHA / ST / CON as fits his character and arc.

    As an NPC, how optimized do you want him to be? At what levels do you expect him to participate? His power progression will be very slow, but he's an NPC so that's probably desirable (and the DM can always choose to gift him a belt of giant ST or other boon if he needs a bit of a boost).

    I'd assume he's mostly story and secondarily a combat asset mechanically.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RogueJK's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Northwest AR
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Cleric/Paladin multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by CTurbo View Post
    Half-Elf with 15,14,14,12,8,8 point buy gets you-

    15 Str, 8 Dex, 14 Con, 8 Int, 16 Wis, 14 Cha at level 1
    Yep. And as a High Half Elf, you could pick up Booming Blade to help lessen the pain of the ridiculously late Extra Attack.

    Out of all the Cleric domains that give you Heavy Armor prof, War would be my last pick. It's just really lacking.
    Indeed. I'd be more apt to go Life or Order for a Heavy Armor domain with this character. Either domain still represents "Paladin-y" values, while being better choices than War.


    Another option would be to start Paladin 1/Cleric X, to represent them starting their journey as a Paladin without reaching the point of gaining most Paladin-specific abilities. Then you could go with a different Paladin-appropriate domain like Peace, Grave, or Light that doesn't natively get Heavy Armor proficiency.

    Or, another option would be to stick to just medium armor Cleric domain levels, and take Heavily Armored instead of Heavy Armor Master. This would achieve the same result, with HA being a half-feat just like HAM, without you having to take the initial Paladin level.
    Last edited by RogueJK; 2023-05-25 at 09:04 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2020

    Default Re: Cleric/Paladin multiclass

    At the risk of taking this thread a bit off the rails, what are the forum's thoughts on allowing the Paly to be Wis based, then going with a multi-class that starts with 6 levels of Paly then goes Cleric the rest of the way? Our other DM and I were chatting about this the other day and our first thought was that it would be roughly in balance with the Charisma based Sorcerer option, so it seemed to open up choice while not being OP.

    You'd be trading the stronger spells and metamagic benefits of Sorc for a stronger save stat in Wis, so I can't see any reason to dis-allow it if a player wanted to go that way.
    Anything I'm missing?

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    stoutstien's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Maine
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Cleric/Paladin multiclass

    Seems like a lot of trouble for a npc you can just make it what you need it to be however easiest.
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

    All credit to the amazing avatar goes to thoroughlyS

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Titan in the Playground
     
    J-H's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Cleric/Paladin multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    Seems like a lot of trouble for a npc you can just make it what you need it to be however easiest.
    I could, but I'll be handing them his (simplified) character sheet for combat, so I'd rather keep it at least appearing to follow the rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by 5eNeedsDarksun View Post
    At the risk of taking this thread a bit off the rails, what are the forum's thoughts on allowing the Paly to be Wis based, then going with a multi-class that starts with 6 levels of Paly then goes Cleric the rest of the way? Our other DM and I were chatting about this the other day and our first thought was that it would be roughly in balance with the Charisma based Sorcerer option, so it seemed to open up choice while not being OP.

    You'd be trading the stronger spells and metamagic benefits of Sorc for a stronger save stat in Wis, so I can't see any reason to dis-allow it if a player wanted to go that way.
    Anything I'm missing?
    Expect them to be just as powerful as a Sorcadin. Less blasting, but more healing and self-buffing. Circle of Power is a 5th-level Paladin spell that is quite a gem in long boss fights. Everyone has advantage on saves vs spells and "other magical effects" (so basically everything you save against that's not a physical attack), and save-for-half becomes save-for-none. I'd rather have it up than AMF in terms of no-selling a caster or lich... especially when combined with Resilient:Con to keep it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by da newt View Post
    I don't know BG, but he doesn't sound like he's got much WIS (especially early) - maybe keep that stat low-ish. You can still be effective as a cleric w/ a crap spell attack / save. Then you can put more resources in CHA / ST / CON as fits his character and arc.

    As an NPC, how optimized do you want him to be? At what levels do you expect him to participate? His power progression will be very slow, but he's an NPC so that's probably desirable (and the DM can always choose to gift him a belt of giant ST or other boon if he needs a bit of a boost).

    I'd assume he's mostly story and secondarily a combat asset mechanically.
    I don't mind a slower spell power progression. He's really more of a "hits things with his weapon, but is also a cleric" type character, and I think this supports it. War Cleric gives him that second weapon attack, which is useful if he has a good magic weapon, and at very high levels (Paladin Extra Attack) lets him feel almost like he's got a bit of Fighter for 3 attacks/rd... which fits the feel.

    I think I'm happy on this one.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    stoutstien's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Maine
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Cleric/Paladin multiclass

    You can follow the "rules" without building it like a PC. You could make a sidekick hybrid or just a simple npc block that has built in scaling with ease.

    If simple is the goal I'd go with the index card rule.
    Last edited by stoutstien; 2023-05-26 at 10:11 AM.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RogueJK's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Northwest AR
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Cleric/Paladin multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by J-H View Post
    War Cleric gives him that second weapon attack, which is useful if he has a good magic weapon
    The War Priest BA attack is only usable WISMOD times per long rest. So that's a second attack a mere four times per day with 18 WIS. It's absolutely not a replacement for Extra Attack for a Cleric that wants to focus on making weapon attacks. Not even close.

    Because it's so limited in uses, that War Priest attack ends up not feeling very impactful and being downright disappointing. It's one of the major reasons why War Cleric is considered one of the poorer Cleric subclasses, especially since we now have several other full caster subclasses who get access to full-blown Extra Attack (or the even better Cantrip Extra Attack like a Bladesinger).

    (Honestly, as it stands, a Warrior-Priest type character who wants to focus on melee attacks is better off taking just 1 level of War Cleric before jumping ship to Ranger, or Paladin, or Swords Bard, and getting actual Extra Attack at Character Level 6 or 7.)


    If you want to fix that issue on this War Cleric/Paladin character, it's a simple homebrew to allow a War Cleric the ability to use the War Priest BA attack at-will when they take the Attack Action, starting at the mid-level of your choice. Level 6 (similar to when a Bladesinger or Valor/Swords Bard gains their Extra Attack) is a good level. Then they'd still retain the option of WISMOD per LR standalone BA attacks for times when they want to make a lone BA attack but use their Action for something else like casting a spell. This at-will War Priest ability is still not as good as full-blown Extra Attack, since it eats your Bonus Action too, but it's a good compromise that makes it actually useful on a regular basis if they routinely are using the Attack Action, instead of just being a nifty trick a handful of times per day.

    But I'm not sure that I would allow this at-will-with-Attack-Action use to stack with actual Extra Attack once they hit Paladin 5, though. 3 attacks most turns on top of all the Cleric goodies is going a bit too far, and risks overshadowing even a Fighter. At that point, I'd just put them back to having standard Extra Attack with the option of a third BA attack (or BA attack when using their Action for something besides Attack) WISMOD times per LR.
    Last edited by RogueJK; 2023-05-26 at 11:46 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Orc in the Playground
     
    HalflingPirate

    Join Date
    Jan 2021

    Default Re: Cleric/Paladin multiclass

    I'd be tempted to just give him a character rebuild when he's accepted into the order, and just let him trade in some or all of his Cleric levels for Paladin levels. Especially if a god's representative is involved in the transition: "You have faithfully answered the call of ministering to my flock. But now you have a new calling, and I bestow upon you power to befit your new role..."

    Or let him stay straight Cleric: knighthood and membership in the order is a social status, there's no reason that has to be restricted to people who have Paladin class levels.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RogueJK's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Northwest AR
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Cleric/Paladin multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipjig View Post
    Or let him stay straight Cleric: knighthood and membership in the order is a social status, there's no reason that has to be restricted to people who have Paladin class levels.
    Which is exactly what happens with this NPC in the actual BG2 game... He remains a Fighter-Cleric dual class, but just adopts the title of a knight. He doesn't actually transform into a Paladin, but continues in his Cleric progression.

    Therefore, the most accurate portrayal of this NPC in 5E would be something like a Fighter 5 or 6/Cleric X, with the knighthood simply being a social/personal thing with no bearing on his class. He'd simply continue taking further Cleric levels as before.

    And I disagree with the OP's assertion that a Fighter/Cleric "doesn't work so well in 5e"... Fighter 5 or 6/Cleric works just fine in 5E for a Warrior Cleric who wants to focus more on weapon attacks than full casting. In return for your lesser Cleric casting ability, you get access to Action Surge, and a Fighting Style, plus a fighting ability like the Battlemaster's Maneuvers or the Champion's Improved Critical. But you're still able to have some secondary healing and buffing, and you'd still a better caster than either a straight class Paladin or especially a Cleric/Paladin by Tiers 3 and 4, while still being a better weapon attacker than a single-classed Cleric in all Tiers. All without having to delay Extra Attack at all. (Or by only one level if you do something like Cleric 1 -> Fighter 5 -> Cleric X, to get a little Cleric spellcasting online in Tier 1.)

    Or if you're really wanting him to have some higher level spell slots for upcasting, while still avoiding delaying Extra Attack, you could do Hunter Ranger 5/Cleric X, and just ignore the nature-y Ranger stuff. Swap out the standard Ranger abilities for the TCoE alternatives, so no Natural Explorer or Favored Enemy. Take something like Religion Expertise from your Canny ability. Any of your Hunter’s Prey combat options would fit with an experienced combatant like a Warrior Priest, as would Favored Foe/Hunter's Mark, so there's nothing explicitly nature-y or ranger-y there. Pick clerical Ranger spells like Cure Wounds and Lesser Restoration instead of druidic Ranger spells like Entangle and Animal Messenger. And you still get a Fighting Style. It's not quite as good an option overall as Fighter/Cleric, but you would have +2 levels of spell slots compared to a Fighter 5/Cleric X, along with a few extra 1st and 2nd level spells known.

    Best of all, neither Fighter/Cleric or Ranger/Cleric are anywhere near as MAD as Paladin/Cleric!
    Last edited by RogueJK; 2023-05-26 at 03:04 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2020

    Default Re: Cleric/Paladin multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by RogueJK View Post
    Which is exactly what happens with this NPC in the actual BG2 game... He remains a Fighter-Cleric dual class, but just adopts the title of a knight. He doesn't actually transform into a Paladin, but continues in his Cleric progression.

    Therefore, the most accurate portrayal of this NPC in 5E would be something like a Fighter 5 or 6/Cleric X, with the knighthood simply being a social/personal thing with no bearing on his class. He'd simply continue taking further Cleric levels as before.

    And I disagree with the OP's assertion that a Fighter/Cleric "doesn't work so well in 5e"... Fighter 5 or 6/Cleric works just fine in 5E for a Warrior Cleric who wants to focus more on weapon attacks than full casting. In return for your lesser Cleric casting ability, you get access to Action Surge, and a Fighting Style, plus a fighting ability like the Battlemaster's Maneuvers or the Champion's Improved Critical. But you're still able to have some secondary healing and buffing, and you'd still a better caster than either a straight class Paladin or especially a Cleric/Paladin by Tiers 3 and 4, while still being a better weapon attacker than a single-classed Cleric in all Tiers. All without having to delay Extra Attack at all. (Or by only one level if you do something like Cleric 1 -> Fighter 5 -> Cleric X, to get a little Cleric spellcasting online in Tier 1.)

    Or if you're really wanting him to have some higher level spell slots for upcasting, while still avoiding delaying Extra Attack, you could do Hunter Ranger 5/Cleric X, and just ignore the nature-y Ranger stuff. Swap out the standard Ranger abilities for the TCoE alternatives, so no Natural Explorer or Favored Enemy. Take something like Religion Expertise from your Canny ability. Any of your Hunter’s Prey combat options would fit with an experienced combatant like a Warrior Priest, as would Favored Foe/Hunter's Mark, so there's nothing explicitly nature-y or ranger-y there. Pick clerical Ranger spells like Cure Wounds and Lesser Restoration instead of druidic Ranger spells like Entangle and Animal Messenger. And you still get a Fighting Style. It's not quite as good an option overall as Fighter/Cleric, but you would have +2 levels of spell slots compared to a Fighter 5/Cleric X, along with a few extra 1st and 2nd level spells known.

    Best of all, neither Fighter/Cleric or Ranger/Cleric are anywhere near as MAD as Paladin/Cleric!
    I've been looking at some Swarmkeeper builds lately that look pretty good for forcing movement into hazards. With the upcasts, something like that with Ranger/ Cleric or Ranger/Druid looks pretty good to me. 5-6 levels of Fighter I'm less convinced about; you just lose too much casting for the trade off . Multi-attack vs. a cantrip that scales with total level is... ok, but taking levels 4, 5, and maybe 6 primarily for that seems pretty marginal.
    Last edited by 5eNeedsDarksun; 2023-05-26 at 03:41 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Librarian in the Playground Moderator
     
    LibraryOgre's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    San Antonio, Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Cleric/Paladin multiclass

    I like to remember that "Paladin" is a job, not just a class. If you're recreating Anomen, I think doing a straight War Cleric is pretty good, with him aspiring to become a Knight of the Most Noble Order of the Radiant Heart; he doesn't need to have the class paladin. You might give him the Martial Adept or Fighting Initiate feat to emphasize that he's a warrior.

    (You could also do with something like my Crusader subclass for fighter)
    The Cranky Gamer
    *It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
    *Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
    *Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
    *The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
    Written by Me on DriveThru RPG
    There are almost 400,000 threads on this site. If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RogueJK's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Northwest AR
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Cleric/Paladin multiclass

    Quote Originally Posted by 5eNeedsDarksun View Post
    I've been looking at some Swarmkeeper builds lately that look pretty good for forcing movement into hazards. With the upcasts, something like that with Ranger/ Cleric or Ranger/Druid looks pretty good to me. 5-6 levels of Fighter I'm less convinced about; you just lose too much casting for the trade off . Multi-attack vs. a cantrip that scales with total level is... ok, but taking levels 4, 5, and maybe 6 primarily for that seems pretty marginal.
    Overall, sure. But if you're trying to recreate a Fighter-Cleric like this 2E NPC, then you're after the Ranger's fighter-y stuff, or the Fighter's fighter-y stuff, and especially Extra Attack... Not so much casting or cantrips or Swarmkeeper abilities.

    I was just putting that Ranger/Cleric build out there as an alternative "Warrior Cleric" to a Fighter/Cleric, if they were interested in being a slightly better caster at the cost of being a slightly worse fighter.

    (But yes, Swarmkeeper Ranger is a good combo with something like Stars Druid or Arcana Cleric, for example... Lots of options for WIS-based attack rolls that trigger Gathered Swarm.)
    Last edited by RogueJK; 2023-05-26 at 04:18 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Nobody in the Playground Moderator
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Cleric/Paladin multiclass

    If it's a NPC, you don't even have to follow the rules. Just make a Cleric/Paladin and use Wis for the Paladin stuff too. I made a NPC Bard with a 22 Cha once, and I don't think the world ended that day lol.
    If you want to play by the rules, which is understandable, I like the Fighter/Cleric idea. It's much easier to pull off and would be a really good character.

    Start Fighter 1 for Con saves and then take at least 5 straight levels of Cleric. Vhuman could start you with 16 Str, 14 Con, 16 Wis, and the PAM feat and choose literally any Cleric domain since you already have heavy armor. You'd eventually want 5 levels of Fighter and you really don't need any other feats so you could just take turns bumping Str and Wis. If you think this character won't ever get past tier 1 or 2, Just be a high Wis Fighter with a small Cleric dip.

    I think War Priest is really good at level 1 and 2, but then falls off quickly starting at level 3 and eventually becomes forgotten. I can think of several possible ways of making it better, but I'll save that for another thread.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Somewhere
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Cleric/Paladin multiclass

    Just make him a paladin straight away. Anomen wasn't much of a caster (and he had better Cha than Wis anyway, at least until he was knighted), and the main thing preventig him from being a paladin was his LN alignment, which isn't a problem in 5e. "Melee fighter with some divine casting" is what paladin does, no need to hang-up on a specific class combo from over 20 years and 3 editions ago. For the same reason, you may just make Imoen into Arcane Trickster... the magery didn't really fit her anyway.
    Last edited by JackPhoenix; 2023-05-27 at 06:36 AM.
    It's Eberron, not ebberon.
    It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
    And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals break loose.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •