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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

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    Default Using items to qualify for PrC

    I've seen some optimisation builds using items to qualify for early PrC entry. The most obvious one that springs to mind is Eldritch Theurge, using a Chausble of Fell Power to increase eldritch blast damage so that you enter as Warlock 1/Sorcerer 4 rather than the more usual Warlock 3/Sorcerer 3 (just using Sorcerer as an example arcane caster class: let's not get bogged down into whether Wizard etc. is better for ED). Also I know that there is continued debate around the use of Precocious Apprentice etc. to gain entry as Warlock 4/Sorcerer 1 but for this thread I'm just considering item usage.

    I know some DMs are uncomfortable with using items in this way. I'm not totally against the idea but it feels open to abuse (but this is 3.5, so what isn't? ;) ). I was wondering whether there was anything RAW or, failing that, hinted at in other sources, that might put this to bed once and for all. Thanks in advance.

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    Default Re: Using items to qualify for PrC

    The Dungeon Master Guide (DMG) introduced prestige classes and thus has topic supremacy.

    Note that Dragon Disciple (DD) is also in the DMG and its capstone ability causes it to stop qualifying for its requirements. This is seen as evidence that you sole need to meed the requirements to enter the PRC, not to progress it (unless the prc notes otherwise. some do).

    The discussion thrives from the text found in 2 supplement books (complete warrior is one, and the other I always keep forgetting..^^).

    Because that text claims that the general rules for prestige classes (PRC) make you loose access to all abilities as long as you don't fulfill the requirements anymore. But the general rules for PRC in the DMG doesn't back up that statement and even has a prc that would become dysfunctional under such a reading.

    Now the Primary Source Rule (PSR) comes into play.
    The PSR can be found in most ERRATA (e.g. PHB, DMG, MM..).
    It has that the if 2 rules are in conflict, the primary source is right.
    The DMG is the primary source for prc, thus Complete Warrior may not add to these rules.


    _____________

    as a side note:
    The 2 books did come out in the transition time from 3.0 to 3.5 and thus the text is most likely to be a transition error. Nevertheless the PSR ensures that by RAW those quotes are irrelevant and they can't alter the game.

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    Default Re: Using items to qualify for PrC

    Generally three camps on it: "RAW says it works," "RAW says it doesn't," and, "I don't care what RAW says, Rule Zero says it does/doesn't work." Each side has good points, and it's a debate that's probably never going to be resolved.

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    Default Re: Using items to qualify for PrC

    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
    Generally three camps on it: "RAW says it works," "RAW says it doesn't," and, "I don't care what RAW says, Rule Zero says it does/doesn't work." Each side has good points, and it's a debate that's probably never going to be resolved.
    You know, that probably sums-up 90% of the threads on here! :)

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    Default Re: Using items to qualify for PrC

    Unlike the basic classes found in the Player’s Handbook, characters must meet requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. The rules for level advancement (see page 58 of the Player’s Handbook) apply to this system, meaning the first step of advancement is always choosing a class. If a character does not meet the requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class.

    Prestige classes are purely optional and always under the purview of the DM. We encourage you, as the DM, to tightly limit the prestige classes available in your campaign.
    Dungeon Master's Guide, page 176

    The 3.0 DMG says the following regarding PrCs:

    A newly created, 1st-level character cannot be a member of a prestige class. Abilities granted by prestige classes are inappropriate for Ist-level characters. Prestige classes are acquired only by meeting the requirements specific to each example. This almost always requires—in effect—that a character be at least mid-level (say, around 5th or 6th level). Additionally, the character must meet nonrule-related requirements in-game, such as group membership fees, special training exercises, quests, and so forth. Allowing PCs access to prestige classes is purely optional and always under the purview of the DM. Even though a few examples can be found below, prestige classes are idiosyncratic to each campaign, and DMs may choose to not allow them or to use them only for NPCs.

    Dungeon Masters should use prestige classes as a tool for worldbuilding as well as a reward for achieving high level.

    Should a character find herself in a position (changed alignment, lost levels, and so on) where she no longer meets the requirements of a prestige class, she loses all special abilities (but not HD, base attack bonus, or base save bonus) gained from levels of the prestige class.
    Dungeon Master's Guide (3.0), page 27

    RAW from both sources says that it's up to the DM. The intent of the 3rd edition DMG was for you to lose all abilities if you lost the requirements.

    We’ve updated errata, clarified rules, polished the presentation, and made the game better than it was. This is an upgrade of the d20 System, not a new edition of the game. This revision is compatible with existing products, and these products can be used with the revision with only minor adjustments.
    Dungeon Master's Guide, page 4

    The 3.5 update does not state that, but it also does not contradict that: you could therefore argue that the ruling from the 3.0 DMG applies. If you lose all abilities from a PrC if you no longer meet the prerequisites, would you want to stake that on a single item?

    Personally, as a DM, I rule against allowing temporary effects to qualify you for feats, classes, etc.

    ___

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    Note that Dragon Disciple is also in the DMG and its capstone ability causes it to stop qualifying for its requirements. This is seen as evidence that you solely need to meet the requirements to enter the PrC, not to progress it (unless the prc notes otherwise. some do).

    The DMG is the primary source for PrCs, thus Complete Warrior may not add to these rules.
    I see this more as the designer of the class forgetting the general rule, rather than this exception proving the rule. Additionally, Complete Warrior is within its rights to add whatever rules it wants for Complete Warrior PrCs, due to specific trumping general. All general rules can have exceptions. Undead are immune to disease and ability damage, but Ash Doom (Sinister Spire, page 18) can still infect corporeal undead and deal Charisma damage because the specific exception says it can.
    Last edited by SirNibbles; 2023-05-26 at 12:23 PM.

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    Default Re: Using items to qualify for PrC

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    [snip] sole [/snip]
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    A thing that I've noticed that you do that has been bugging the hell out of me is using "sole" instead of "solely" for various things. I know it's the internet and most people don't take stuff like spelling and grammar even remotely seriously these days, but it's been bugging me, and I figured I'd say something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    Note that Dragon Disciple (DD) is also in the DMG and its capstone ability causes it to stop qualifying for its requirements. This is seen as evidence that you sole need to meed the requirements to enter the PRC, not to progress it (unless the prc notes otherwise. some do).
    Using it like that should be 'solely,' not 'sole.'

    Just so you know.



    *I tried to DM you, but your inbox is full...

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Using items to qualify for PrC

    Nearest thing to an official answer I've seen is in the ELH FAQ, where they state that ability scores enhanced by items do count for taking feats:

    Quote Originally Posted by ELH FAQ
    Always use your current ability score (no matter how you managed to get it) to determine if you qualify for any feat. Keep in mind that you cannot use a feat if you no longer meet the prerequisites (which may happen if you lose the item you’re depending on to meet a prerequisite).
    Now obviously 1) this is referring to feats not prestige classes 2) it's the FAQ so it's debatable how official it should be considered 3) this is 3.0 so it's debatable whether it applies to 3.5. So, it's far from conclusive, but it seems unlikely that if you can qualify for feats this way that you can't do the same with prestige classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    Now the Primary Source Rule (PSR) comes into play.
    The PSR can be found in most ERRATA (e.g. PHB, DMG, MM..).
    It has that the if 2 rules are in conflict, the primary source is right.
    The DMG is the primary source for prc, thus Complete Warrior may not add to these rules.
    And this is why the primary source rule doesn't make sense if taken entirely literally. There are huge amounts of rules in splatbooks which modify core rules: using the logic here, none of that is official, despite them in some cases saying in so many words that they supercede them. As far as I know it doesn't say anywhere that the PSR overrides all other rules, forever.

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    Default Re: Using items to qualify for PrC

    My interpretation (which does not 100% line up with what I think the RAW is):

    1: You need to meet the requirements for a PrC every time you take a level in the PrC.

    2: If you lose a prerequisite, then you lose all class features of the PrC (but regain them seamlessly if you get it back). You still keep the stats of the class (save progression, BAB, skills, HP).

    3: Classes which, themselves, inherently remove one of their own prerequisites (such as Dragon Disciple or Ur-Priest) don't count for either of these rules.

    4: The prestige classes from Complete Arcane and Complete Warrior follow slightly stricter rules, because those books say so (interestingly, it's not quite the same slightly stricter rules for both of those books).

    5: Any individual prestige class can also have stricter rules, if it says so. Most often, this will be found in a section in the class listing called "Ex-<class name>s", and often involves alignment or other codes of conduct, and the Atonement spell to get the class back.

    6: You can qualify for a PrC using items or other temporary or easily-lost effects, but beware if you do so of the possible consequences.
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    Default Re: Using items to qualify for PrC

    I think this has morphed into a discussion whether or not you need to retain qualifications to advance in a PRC or keep it's abilities.

    I don't think there's any argument that you can't use items to meet PRC requirements, so long as the items actually do what you think they do. An item that grants you alertness as a bonus feat lets you qualify for a class that requires the alertness feat. What happens when you lose the item is what's up in the air, although I lean towards the 3.5 DMG being the authoritative source on that matter, and am not sure why you'd reference a ruling explicitly cut in the 3.5 transition.
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    Default Re: Using items to qualify for PrC

    Quote Originally Posted by SirNibbles View Post
    *snip*
    ...

    RAW from both sources says that it's up to the DM. The intent of the 3rd edition DMG was for you to lose all abilities if you lost the requirements.

    ....

    The 3.5 update does not state that, but it also does not contradict that: you could therefore argue that the ruling from the 3.0 DMG applies. If you lose all abilities from a PrC if you no longer meet the prerequisites, would you want to stake that on a single item?

    Personally, as a DM, I rule against allowing temporary effects to qualify you for feats, classes, etc.

    ___



    I see this more as the designer of the class forgetting the general rule, rather than this exception proving the rule. Additionally, Complete Warrior is within its rights to add whatever rules it wants for Complete Warrior PrCs, due to specific trumping general. All general rules can have exceptions. Undead are immune to disease and ability damage, but Ash Doom (Sinister Spire, page 18) can still infect corporeal undead and deal Charisma damage because the specific exception says it can.
    Pretending that there are more rules as in the primary source is a contradiction.

    Since the topic was updated into 3.5 you may not use the 3.0 content anymore. That's how the 3.0 material is compatible with 3.5. You refer to older 3.0 rules that has already been updated by RAW.

    The Primary Source Rule will point you to the 3.5 source and not the 3.0 source.

    It's like an Update for any program that removes a feature. You can't pretend that it is still there just because the former version had it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
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    A thing that I've noticed that you do that has been bugging the hell out of me is using "sole" instead of "solely" for various things. I know it's the internet and most people don't take stuff like spelling and grammar even remotely seriously these days, but it's been bugging me, and I figured I'd say something.

    Using it like that should be 'solely,' not 'sole.'

    Just so you know.



    *I tried to DM you, but your inbox is full...
    Thx for pointing out my error. I'll try to figure the difference out^^

    And I'll make some space in my inBox. Thx for the info.


    Quote Originally Posted by Biggus View Post
    And this is why the primary source rule doesn't make sense if taken entirely literally. There are huge amounts of rules in splatbooks which modify core rules: using the logic here, none of that is official, despite them in some cases saying in so many words that they supercede them. As far as I know it doesn't say anywhere that the PSR overrides all other rules, forever.
    Huge amount of rules? I wouldn't be aware of a single one (except the broken statement for PRC).
    Would you mind to bring up some examples so that I get what kind of stuff you mean?

    I assume that those are either:

    a) Specific Trumps General: thus they created a specific niche with specific rulings

    b) an entirely New Topic: take psionics and essentia as examples here.

    c) Sources that call out their supremacy: like Draconomicon, Rules Compendium,..

    As said, provide the examples and we'll see if the Primary Source Rule causes any problems.

    ____________________________________


    @topic

    Imho in 3.5 classes have specific rules if you can lose access to stuff.
    Here some examples:

    - monks can't flurry or move faster in armor.
    - multiclassing as monk prevent you from taking more monk lvls.
    - Paladins have to follow their "Code"
    - Clerics have to behave according to their deity
    - Barbarians that become lawful lose their Rage ability (which other classes can get Rage as lawful character via ACF..)

    Imho, in 3.5 the authors shifted to use this method instead of ripping of your entire abilities for losing a requirement for PRC.
    Because otherwise some PRC become easy prey to being shut down. It's already annoying enough if you can't use some feats or spell levels anymore. But if you entire abilities and prc spell progression gets shut down by a simple lvl 1-2 spell, there is something wrong.
    Thus imho 3.5 is more balanced since it did got rid of that annoying "all or nothing" 3.0 rule, while still having the (specific) option for those specific classes where it fits (e.g. Paladin).

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Using items to qualify for PrC

    Quote Originally Posted by Biggus View Post
    Nearest thing to an official answer I've seen is in the ELH FAQ, where they state that ability scores enhanced by items do count for taking feats:



    Now obviously 1) this is referring to feats not prestige classes 2) it's the FAQ so it's debatable how official it should be considered 3) this is 3.0 so it's debatable whether it applies to 3.5. So, it's far from conclusive, but it seems unlikely that if you can qualify for feats this way that you can't do the same with prestige classes.



    And this is why the primary source rule doesn't make sense if taken entirely literally. There are huge amounts of rules in splatbooks which modify core rules: using the logic here, none of that is official, despite them in some cases saying in so many words that they supercede them. As far as I know it doesn't say anywhere that the PSR overrides all other rules, forever.
    It’s also not a rule. No errata file adds it to any rules text. Thus it never appears in a rule book.

    See? Idiotic interpretations like G’s can be used to prove anything.

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    Default Re: Using items to qualify for PrC

    Nothing says you can or can't qualify for PRCs using items. Any debate is about whether you keep your class features if you stop qualifying.

    Honestly, losing class features as a general rule because you stop qualifying is stupid. If you believe CW or CArc, you don't even have the option for atonement; you get dead levels permanently. As a DM and as a player that simple fact is reason enough to toss those rules away.

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    Default Re: Using items to qualify for PrC

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitsuneymg View Post
    It’s also not a rule. No errata file adds it to any rules text. Thus it never appears in a rule book.

    See? Idiotic interpretations like G’s can be used to prove anything.
    Would you mind telling me what makes the interpretation so idiotic for you?

    And how can you use a rule that leads to a single outcome in 99% of the times to "prove anything"?

    Sorry, but a "single outcome" doesn't match with "prove anything" for me.
    It's exactly the opposite. The PSR tells you which rule takes priority in a situation.
    This means "it disproves anything which doesn't have priority".

    The "PSR can be used to prove anything" myth has been debunked imho.

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    Default Re: Using items to qualify for PrC

    I do sometimes feel with certain PrCs that WotC have tried to fulfil their own “only use good requirements” dictum by using poor requirements dressed-up as good ones. Continuing with Eldritch Theurge as an example: according to the DMG II (depending on your source and version), poor requirements for PrCs include:

    Character or Class Level
    Character Class

    Now let's look at the Eldritch Theurge entry requirements:

    Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks, Knowledge (the planes) 8 ranks.
    Spells: Ability to cast 2nd-level arcane spells.
    Invocations: Ability to use least invocations.
    Special: Eldritch blast +2d6.

    One of these requirements is the ability to do a 2d6 Eldritch Blast. As there is only one class that can do an Eldritch Blast, that means they have attempted to circumvent the “Character Class” poor requirement only in word, not in spirit. Non-warlocks need not apply.

    Then we get to the skill requirement: Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks, Knowledge (the planes) 8 ranks. In 90% of the PrCs I've looked at, skill requirement levels (as opposed to simply having the skill, which usually makes gameplay and RP sense) are usually there to enforce a minimum entry level. For Eldritch Theurge this is no different – 8 ranks requires a minimum level of 5. I know there's cheesy ways around this but I doubt the PrC designers were thinking of them when adding this requirement. In fact the DMG explicitly calls this out: “Skill ranks also set class level to enter the prestige class.”

    So... if the designers were thinking that fifth-level entry was a reasonable prerequisite for entering Eldritch Theurge, that leads me to conclude that one or both of the following are RAI, if not RAW:

    Sorcerer 4/Warlock 1, using a Chasuble of Fell Power to achieve the 2d6 Eldritch Blast.
    Warlock 4/Sorcerer 1, using Precocious Apprentice feat to achieve the Ability to cast 2nd-level arcane spells.

    Now I'll be the first to admit that we've all seen plenty of instances where the designers' knowledge was found to be sorely lacking, and so my assumption that entry based on five levels is valid is just that, an assumption. But if I were taking this to my DM (or one of my players took this to me when I were DMing), I'd consider it a valid argument as to allowing one or both methods.

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    Default Re: Using items to qualify for PrC

    Quoth Daisy:

    One of these requirements is the ability to do a 2d6 Eldritch Blast. As there is only one class that can do an Eldritch Blast, that means they have attempted to circumvent the “Character Class” poor requirement only in word, not in spirit. Non-warlocks need not apply.
    I don't think that's what that guideline meant. Compare a core prestige class, the Arcane Trickster. One of its requirements is Sneak Attack, and at the time it was published, that was a rogue-exclusive class feature. But, in keeping with the guidance presented in the DMG II, it didn't actually say "Must be a rogue". And that's relevant, because several classes were published later that also got Sneak Attack: The spellthief, the ninja, and the psychic rogue (and arguably, the swordsage, factotum, and lurk). If Arcane Trickster had said "requires rogue levels", it would have shut out those later classes, but since it instead said "requires Sneak Attack", it remained forwards-compatible.

    Similarly, Eldritch Theurge requires Eldritch Blast, but does not actually require Warlock. And that's relevant, in case some new non-warlock class is added in the future that also has Eldritch Blast. So far as I know, WotC never did make another Eldritch Blast class, but they, or any homebrewer, could, and Eldritch Theurge would work with that class.
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    Default Re: Using items to qualify for PrC

    Havoc Orb has eldritch blast as SA.
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    Default Re: Using items to qualify for PrC

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    I don't think that's what that guideline meant. Compare a core prestige class, the Arcane Trickster. One of its requirements is Sneak Attack, and at the time it was published, that was a rogue-exclusive class feature. But, in keeping with the guidance presented in the DMG II, it didn't actually say "Must be a rogue". And that's relevant, because several classes were published later that also got Sneak Attack: The spellthief, the ninja, and the psychic rogue (and arguably, the swordsage, factotum, and lurk). If Arcane Trickster had said "requires rogue levels", it would have shut out those later classes, but since it instead said "requires Sneak Attack", it remained forwards-compatible.

    Similarly, Eldritch Theurge requires Eldritch Blast, but does not actually require Warlock. And that's relevant, in case some new non-warlock class is added in the future that also has Eldritch Blast. So far as I know, WotC never did make another Eldritch Blast class, but they, or any homebrewer, could, and Eldritch Theurge would work with that class.
    You are completely right, I hadn't thought of that. Coming to 3.5 slightly late, I sometimes forget it didn't appear fully-formed in its entirety!

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    Default Re: Using items to qualify for PrC

    You can explicitly use items to qualify for feats. They aren't "virtual feats until you've actually earned them yourself," which means you actually get said feats using items to qualify for them. Feats are often used as prerequisites for PrCs. You can use items to qualify for feats to qualify for PrCs. So yes, you most certainly can use items to qualify for PrCs.

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