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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: A lawful good/neutral good level 6 necromancer. thoughts?

    One of the worlds in my homebrew cosmology is a "Judge Dredd"-esque setting where good vs evil takes a backseat to law vs chaos. In this world necromancy is simply a property crime, a theft from whoever rightfully owns the corpse being reanimated. If you die with debts your estate will likely sell your corpse to a corpse handler to settle this debt. Because it's dangerous, necromancy is tightly regulated, and corpses legally animated are given serial numbers for enforcement. If one of your reanimated corpses goes feral and causes damage it can be tracked back to you and you'll face a fine and be liable for the damages.

    Also as a note, warlocks with lawful patrons, including devils, exist entirely without stigma, and firms exist to help connect prospective warlocks with their patrons as well as drafting fair enforceable pacts and handle arbitration between patrons and their warlocks when disputes arise. In an otherwise unrelated campaign, the party traveled to this plane in order to retain the services of a specialized attorney to represent the party warlock in a dispute with his patron.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: A lawful good/neutral good level 6 necromancer. thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anymage View Post
    Whether you follow the skeletons-as-robots interpretation or the skeletons-as-slaves one, it's arguable that a conditional such as "keep cleaning until an hour before control is set to lapse. Then start attacking yourself if I haven't been by to update programming" counts as a simple instruction.
    Animate Dead makes no requirement that your instructions be simple. That said, for our purposes 'Do X thing at Y time' is sufficient -- we don't need to add conditionals like 'if I haven't been around' since if we're around, we can just issue whatever new orders we want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anymage View Post
    Remember that undead can't just choose to stop existing and then peacefully expire. They have to inflict damage upon themselves in one way or another. Often in ways that might leave the bones unsuitable for future reanimation.
    Under normal circumstances, the caster would be around to check on them within a span of 24 hours (stricter regulation might require that they be supervised at all times).

    If that doesn't occur, then it likely means either A) something bad happened to the caster (in which case future reanimation isn't really our priority) or B) the caster would be liable for gross negligence (and gross negligence is enough to qualify as evil on its own, without Animate Dead helping it out).
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2023-05-27 at 11:18 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
    If statistics are the concern for game balance I can't think of a more worthwhile person for you to discuss it with, LudicSavant has provided this forum some of the single most useful tools in probability calculations and is a consistent source of sanity checking for this sort of thing.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: A lawful good/neutral good level 6 necromancer. thoughts?

    Nothing in Animate Dead implies they can be programmed to take an action at a future time. Either they do it immediately for one round under your perfect control (unlike say Conjure line of spells) or they start following a general command immediately.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: A lawful good/neutral good level 6 necromancer. thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Nothing in Animate Dead implies they can be programmed to take an action at a future time.
    On the contrary, the examples given not only imply but require that it's possible for the animated dead to react to future conditions. You can't program a guarding behavior without that.

    For example, if you order your zombies to guard a chamber, that requires that they can do things like 'if a creature shows up in this chamber at some point in the future, attack them.'
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2023-05-27 at 11:47 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
    If statistics are the concern for game balance I can't think of a more worthwhile person for you to discuss it with, LudicSavant has provided this forum some of the single most useful tools in probability calculations and is a consistent source of sanity checking for this sort of thing.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: A lawful good/neutral good level 6 necromancer. thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    As far as a consequentialist argument goes, 'irresponsibly leaving uncontrolled undead lying around' would have negative consequences -- but that is something you have to choose to let happen, not something that's inherent to the spell itself.

    In the case of Animate Dead, zombies may wish to eat your brains, but they're under your control and therefore will not. Even if something would cause you to be unable to give them further orders, they will just destroy themselves (because responsible casters always order their undead to destroy themselves if they don't hear from you -- they're self-cleaning!)

    Was there something beyond that?
    The MM entry for either Zombie or Skeleton makes clear that having undead around can cause corpses to spontaneously transform into undead.

    I also am not sure that "don't worry, I've ordered my evil slaves to destroy themselves in case I'm not here to renew the magic controlling them" is an indicator the person saying that is not a bad guy.

    Also, I don't recall anything in Animate Dead saying the undead can follow several instructions at once. So if you gove them the order of destroying themselves if the spell duration is running out,they wouldn't be able to do anything else.I admit I could be wrong on that.

    Regardless, declaring that there is no way the dangerous monster will escape your control is something you usually see either villains, fools, or foolidh villains do. And then the question is: how many time do you have to create a dangerous monster "for good" before it becomes willingly putting people in precarious peril?

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: A lawful good/neutral good level 6 necromancer. thoughts?

    I think everything in this thread can be summarized as:

    If the DM is on board with you playing a good-aligned corpse-animator, you can.
    If the DM is not, it's not going to work.

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    Default Re: A lawful good/neutral good level 6 necromancer. thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    The MM entry for either Zombie or Skeleton makes clear that having undead around can cause corpses to spontaneously transform into undead.
    Good point. Though this still seems to fall roughly under the moral category of 'you should follow hazmat protocols when using this spell.'

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    I also am not sure that "don't worry, I've ordered my evil slaves to destroy themselves in case I'm not here to renew the magic controlling them" is an indicator the person saying that is not a bad guy.
    If the undead are mistreated, then there might be a basis to consider the spell wrong on that alone.

    However, I'm not sure the undead mind. The description of zombies says "A zombie retains no vestiges of its former self, its mind devoid of thought" while the description of skeletons says they "possess little sense of self and even less sense of self-preservation."

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    Regardless, declaring that there is no way the dangerous monster will escape your control is something you usually see either villains, fools, or foolidh villains do.
    In B movies that follow this kind of script, sure. In real life, though, we play with fire all the time, sometimes with costs, but often to great success, too.

    As far as the danger-level of Animate Dead specifically goes, zoos haven't had much trouble containing things smarter and more dangerous than D&D zombies, and we regularly handle materials that are both more difficult to control and would cause significantly more devastation in the event of an accident. So it's dangerous, but not overly so. I honestly would be more worried about a few other spells existing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    And then the question is: how many time do you have to create a dangerous monster "for good" before it becomes willingly putting people in precarious peril?
    Depends on how responsibly you're handling the dangerous thing. Doing it one time is too many if you're being irresponsible. Doing it as a widespread cultural practice is fine as long as there are safety measures in place that reduce the risk to acceptable levels.
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2023-05-27 at 01:47 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
    If statistics are the concern for game balance I can't think of a more worthwhile person for you to discuss it with, LudicSavant has provided this forum some of the single most useful tools in probability calculations and is a consistent source of sanity checking for this sort of thing.
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: A lawful good/neutral good level 6 necromancer. thoughts?

    Back in the old 3.5 days, I played a character who was a Pharaoh's executioner. He was, of course, from Egypt where raising dead is the core of their religion. The setting was a time skipping/alternate reality romp. He was a worshipper of Osiris, who himself was raised from the dead by his wife, Isis, and therefore an undead. I used the Dread Necromancer class from Libre Mortalis. One of its features was proficiency with a single martial weapon, so I chose an executioner's sword (greatsword). His schtick was that as a purveyor of justice, he could call upon the bodies or souls of criminals to return and serve the cause of justice and thereby lighten the burden at their judgement in the afterlife.

    So, under these circumstances, the creation of undead was not only not evil, but served the cause of good.

    It's all up to the DM's discretion.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: A lawful good/neutral good level 6 necromancer. thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    This stuff sounds like 'playing with fire' territory. And while playing with fire can have consequences, it doesn't inherently have them -- the consequences are generally proportional to how responsibly you're using the fire.

    And as far as playing with fire goes, "zombies that try to monkey's paw your orders" still seems less threatening to me than the kinds of fire that real engineers already have to build safeguards for.
    If you want to have undead be tightly regulated to limit the harm they can do, that's fine. That also definitionally limits what they can be used for, and thus the societal impact, but you can have Animate Dead be a tightly regulated spell that Good characters treat with major caution instead of an always Evil one where copies are to be burned on sight.

    That still says that PC necromancers will have to follow very elaborate precautions and will often have to leave their undead behind to limit the risks to others. Or else face consequences of both alignment and practical natures. It also means that a kindly necromancer who tries to raise undead to do household chores is going to find out why the precautions and regulations are necessary.

    You then have the questions of metaphysical effects of so much negative energy coming into the plane, and how (or even whether) that might be mitigated. That's all DM dependent on how he wants to style things, though.

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    Default Re: A lawful good/neutral good level 6 necromancer. thoughts?

    point of order as to the premise of the post... this is supposed to act as the background of the character, rather than an ongoing thing, so in terms of gameplay, it might not be entirely relevant other than to set a baseline on how people who know Astor's past or know him from the past might or might not react to and interact with him.
    people who don't know him and who aren't familiar with the peculiar situation his village lived in, might take him for a random wizard/cleric, and react to him according to how he behaves in game.
    so from a gaming perspective I am not entirely sure it's a big deal either way we look at the morality of the issue, purely on account of how this is one guy in a backwater village, not a systemic thing. (I'm half thinking of a place with Barovia vibes).
    What he does and how he acts once he is away from his familiar places and removed from his comfort zone is entirely up for grabs and open to being pounded upon by the DM if his actions don't gel with the rest of polite society.

    that said, even in the background, Astor would purposely stay close to his skeletons, to make sure they don't get creative beyond what he needs them to do. He'd probably bring a book and keep an eye on them as they feed the chicken or plough a field or repair a fishing net.
    I also thought of the families needing the extra manpower rising their family members on account of maybe some vestigial memory would give the undead a degree of familiarity and aptitude with the necessary tasks, but reading the description of the skeletons and such, that goes out of the window the moment we stick to RAW and keep to the notion that the raised undead has 0 affinity with their former self... bit of a shame from a narrative standpoint, but nothing too crippling.

    so yeah, ultimately, this would very much be a case of a DM either accepting the backstory as a bit of creative writing and a potential source for a personal enemy or two, but otherwise sticking to how wizards (and necromancers in particular) are played and perceived normally in a game, or the DM integrating this take on utilitarian necromancy into the setting... or straight up refusing to do either and nixing the backstory... which would also be fine, as I said, this is not for playing but a thought experiment.. and I am seeing solid arguments being given by everybody.
    Last edited by dehro; 2023-05-27 at 02:53 PM.
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: A lawful good/neutral good level 6 necromancer. thoughts?

    Backstory isn't the point being called out under default rules. Nor is how the character thinks of themselves. It's a player describing their character as good and writing that down on their character sheet.

    Does that matter? Quite possibly not at all. Roleplaying rules tend to be more easily ignored or changed than say using your Wis bonus to attack instead of Str, because you want to do something different to make a character concept. Or it might matter a lot. Depends on the group. Depends on the DM.

    If someone wants to make a good character under the default rules, as a player, that is a necromancer, focus on necromancy spells that don't create undead creatures. And rarely if ever use those that do.

    Or talk to your DM and make sure they're on board with changing something about the default rules.

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    Default Re: A lawful good/neutral good level 6 necromancer. thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by dehro View Post
    that said, even in the background, Astor would purposely stay close to his skeletons, to make sure they don't get creative beyond what he needs them to do. He'd probably bring a book and keep an eye on them as they feed the chicken or plough a field or repair a fishing net.
    I also thought of the families needing the extra manpower rising their family members on account of maybe some vestigial memory would give the undead a degree of familiarity and aptitude with the necessary tasks, but reading the description of the skeletons and such, that goes out of the window the moment we stick to RAW and keep to the notion that the raised undead has 0 affinity with their former self... bit of a shame from a narrative standpoint, but nothing too crippling.
    This line about skeletons seems relevant to your idea:

    "Habitual Behaviors.
    Independent skeletons temporarily or permanently free of a master's control sometimes pantomime actions from their past lives, their bones echoing the rote behaviors of their former living selves. The skeleton of a miner might lift a pick and start chipping away at stone walls. The skeleton of a guard might strike up a post at a random doorway. The skeleton of a dragon might lie down on a pile of treasure, while the skeleton of a horse crops grass it can't eat. Left alone in a ballroom, the skeletons of nobles might continue an eternally unfinished dance."

    Zombies on the other hand are stated to have nothing whatsoever of their past selves remaining.
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2023-05-27 at 03:08 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
    If statistics are the concern for game balance I can't think of a more worthwhile person for you to discuss it with, LudicSavant has provided this forum some of the single most useful tools in probability calculations and is a consistent source of sanity checking for this sort of thing.
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    Default Re: A lawful good/neutral good level 6 necromancer. thoughts?

    Maybe you could create a new spell for this specific type of undead.
    Call it Reanimate Loved One.
    Have it only work on a corpse that has had a special last rite and has been prepared for this use.
    It's sort of tapping into Animate Dead and Speak With Dead. Make it noncombatant, use commoner stats instead of monster stats.

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    Default Re: A lawful good/neutral good level 6 necromancer. thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    In B movies that follow this kind of script, sure. In real life, though, we play with fire all the time, sometimes with costs, but often to great success, too.
    In real life, there's no objective, capital E Evil. Or a malevolent spirits whose sole desire is to destroy all life, and who didn't have an opportunity to act on that desire until someone decided to give them physical bodies.

    As far as the danger-level of Animate Dead specifically goes, zoos haven't had much trouble containing things smarter and more dangerous than D&D zombies, and we regularly handle materials that are both more difficult to control and would cause significantly more devastation in the event of an accident. So it's dangerous, but not overly so. I honestly would be more worried about a few other spells existing...
    A tiger or a nuclear reaction isn't actively malevolent.
    It's Eberron, not ebberon.
    It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
    And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals break loose.

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    Default Re: A lawful good/neutral good level 6 necromancer. thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    Or a malevolent spirits whose sole desire is to destroy all life, and who didn't have an opportunity to act on that desire until someone decided to give them physical bodies.
    They don't have an opportunity to act on that desire when you use Animate Dead, either. Unless the caster is acting like they dumped their mental stat instead of maxing it, an extremely high number of things would have to go wrong, and even if they all do, all you've got is... a D&D zombie. Which as far as outbreaks go, is pretty nonthreatening. A similar level of 'things going wrong' for other spells would be more dangerous.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    A tiger or a nuclear reaction isn't actively malevolent.
    So what?

    A zombie is canonically devoid of thought. Its 'active malevolence' only extends about as far as going 'braaaains' and shambling towards anything with a pulse, which is no worse than what plenty of animals do (honestly, it's not even as bad -- some animals torture things to death for fun). And even that relatively tame danger requires a series of cascading failures to occur before it's even possible.
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2023-05-27 at 04:53 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
    If statistics are the concern for game balance I can't think of a more worthwhile person for you to discuss it with, LudicSavant has provided this forum some of the single most useful tools in probability calculations and is a consistent source of sanity checking for this sort of thing.
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    Default Re: A lawful good/neutral good level 6 necromancer. thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    They don't have an opportunity to act on that desire when you use Animate Dead, either. An extremely high number of things would have to go wrong, and even if they all do, all you've got is... a D&D zombie. Which as far as dangerous outbreaks go, is pretty nonthreatening.
    1 is "extremely high number"? You're right there's an extremely high number in play... an extremely high number of reasons why the necromancer possibly wouldn't cast the spell to maintain the control of the undead again within the 24-hour limit.

    And 4-hp commoners would very much disagree with your assessment of the threat posed by zombies or skeletons.

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    So what?
    This alone tells me any further discussion is pointless.
    Last edited by JackPhoenix; 2023-05-27 at 04:52 PM.
    It's Eberron, not ebberon.
    It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
    And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals break loose.

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    Default Re: A lawful good/neutral good level 6 necromancer. thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    1 is "extremely high number"?
    Assuming that casters are using safety precautions as discussed in the thread above, then I imagine quite a few things would need to go wrong before there'll be any uncontrolled zombies wandering about. If you disagree, what's this 'one thing' that's going to cause disaster?

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    You're right there's an extremely high number in play... an extremely high number of reasons why the necromancer possibly wouldn't cast the spell to maintain the control of the undead again within the 24-hour limit.
    Such as?

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    And 4-hp commoners would very much disagree with your assessment of the threat posed by zombies or skeletons.

    This alone tells me any further discussion is pointless.
    You were literally comparing a D&D zombie to a nuclear reaction in a discussion about risk assessment and consequentialism.

    Being "actively malevolent" cannot make a D&D zombie more dangerous to a commoner than a nuclear reaction.

    Indeed, it can't even make them as dangerous as a common hazmat chemical spill, or a tiger that decided humans were on the menu.
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2023-05-27 at 05:41 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
    If statistics are the concern for game balance I can't think of a more worthwhile person for you to discuss it with, LudicSavant has provided this forum some of the single most useful tools in probability calculations and is a consistent source of sanity checking for this sort of thing.
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    Default Re: A lawful good/neutral good level 6 necromancer. thoughts?

    I despise how often "necromancer raises dead to do agriculture" comes up. Are you seriously telling me you would eat food that was handled by undead? Do you want plague? Cause this is how you get plague.
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    Default Re: A lawful good/neutral good level 6 necromancer. thoughts?

    as opposed to wearing armor and wielding weapons looted from a tomb, delving into rat infested sewers or dungeons, looting monsters for parts without wearing a hazmat suit, which are all perfectly sanitary activities that happen routinely in DnD?
    by your logic, the very existence of ambulating undead should constantly keep any fantasy setting that includes them about 1 bite away from continuous plague everywhere.. which is the premise of a bunch of interesting TV shows, but doesn't have to be the central theme of a campaign... unless the DM makes it so.
    to answer your question, yes, I am willing to stretch my suspension of disbelief into that particular way just like I am ok with the undead of various kind, ranging from skeletons to vampire lords interacting on the daily with other npcs, humanoids, pcs, monsters and so on, and not being walking epicenters of plague waves.
    Last edited by dehro; 2023-05-27 at 05:56 PM.
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    Default Re: A lawful good/neutral good level 6 necromancer. thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by dehro View Post
    I wanted to try and see if I could make a necromancer that was actually a good person and used his powers responsibly. This is purely a thought exercise, a proof of concept.
    Just remember to put in a safety mechanism to prevent your zombies from eating anyone even if you were to die prematurely of adventuring-related causes. This is generally pretty easy for anyone who can spare mid-level spell slots for chores. You can do it via well-crafted orders, Magic Mouth, Forbiddance, or even just having a supervisor (it doesn't even have to be you; if you don't show up in time to re-up your control, just have them under orders to execute the undead).
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2023-05-27 at 06:17 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
    If statistics are the concern for game balance I can't think of a more worthwhile person for you to discuss it with, LudicSavant has provided this forum some of the single most useful tools in probability calculations and is a consistent source of sanity checking for this sort of thing.
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    Default Re: A lawful good/neutral good level 6 necromancer. thoughts?

    This is what I would do if I was DMing.

    #1 The first thing I had to think about was how to treat commands to the undead. Presumably I would be 100% on board with a necromancer casting Animate Dead for some skeletons, giving them crossbows, and using them as a unit in combat. If that's fine, using them for labor should be mechanically possible. So if I was DMing I would have any command last the 24 hours of the spell's duration and be carried out faithfully but not particularly intelligently. When you Renew Animate dead to retain control you would have to also give any long term commands again.
    And I would be clear about this ruling.

    #2 Trying to run 5e lore, the native behavior of a zombie would be something like Night of the Living Dead. "Brains..." Skeletons would be a bit less interested in eating the things they kill and more just straight murder machines. A burning hatred for living things either way. Animate Dead does not bring Grandma's soul back. It makes a horrible monster out of her corpse. You have really good control over that monster when you do have control over it. But it has absolutely dark intentions.
    Assuming you took Knowledge Arcana or Knowledge Religion I would be very clear about that.

    #3 I would be totally onboard with Summon Undead pulling a particular spirit. If the gilded skull was your sister's skull I don't see anything wrong with having her ghost be the one that keeps showing up. And since the Undead Spirit is listed as unaligned I would roleplay it as your sister without any planar influences twisting her personality.

    #4 I would not contrive some bad scenario where your containment of Animate Dead failed. I would be watching closely for you to make mistakes. But the skeletons and zombies are just not smart enough to plot against you or undermine your control. And as DM I won't just come up with some way to have things go to **** just because I want to teach you a lesson or "prove" to you that necromancy is evil.
    Now if you are using command undead to control a much more intelligent undead like a lich or something, you could have an incredibly dangerous incredibly conniving **** ready to stab you in the back the first opportunity that arises.
    I would not tell you about these considerations.

    #5 Regarding alignment - It's not my job to judge you the player or your character. But it is my job to accurately run NPCs according to their beliefs.
    The Great Sunblade made by the "lawful good" gods to the defend the weak against the wicked and only wieldable by the pure of heart probably wouldn't work for you. You've had too much willing interaction with badly corrupting dark powers for the comfort of those stuck up purists up on their high thrones.
    The local inquisition will probably also want a quiet word with you. Over in that unmarked building with the thick walls and no windows.
    I would not tell you, "The Great Sunblade Requires a good alignment and you are neutral." I would not secretly write down that your alignment is neutral. I would just say "Somehow the Great Sunblade will not attune to you."
    During character creation, if the inquisition existed in the setting we were going to run I would tell you about them. And I would tell you what the average peasant knows about them, how dogmatically intolerant they are and how they like to wear badges and little hats.
    During character creation I would not tell you about the shadow government and their secret inquisition. If such a thing existed.
    Good luck.

    #6 Finally there are some miscellaneous religious issues.
    Undead naturally occur in areas infused with sufficient negative energy. They will not come into existence under control and they will do the normal undead things. But in my opinion - it would take years of practicing low level necromancy to taint an area. You'd need something a lot more powerful or a lot more evil to quickly desecrate an area. Maybe if you happen to slaughter all the younglings at the local temple you shouldn't store any corpses there.
    There are also some settings where the spirits of the dead don't rest easy. And an angry ghost can be a problem. I would be checking to see in the setting if spirits are whisked away right to Valhalla on the last breath - or if they need proper burial to keep them at bay. Grandma showing up to complain about how you desecrated her corpse could be a really unpleasant experience.

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: A lawful good/neutral good level 6 necromancer. thoughts?

    Good stuff.
    On a more practical note, assuming that this character takes a 1 level dip in Life domain cleric, this gives him every armour proficiency. With a Dex of 14, a shield and Mage armor, he gets a 17 AC. Or he could just suit up and save the spell slot.
    Considering that this is not a frontliner and that if he gets in melee range something has gone terribly wrong, what is traditionally considered the better choice with such a premise? Best to save the spell slot and invest in armour or to keep mobility and stealth in consideration? I just realised I've hardly ever played a primary wizard character, hence the rookie question
    Last edited by dehro; 2023-05-28 at 01:05 AM.
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  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: A lawful good/neutral good level 6 necromancer. thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by dehro View Post
    Good stuff.
    On a more practical note, assuming that this character takes a 1 level dip in Life domain cleric, this gives him every armour proficiency. With a Dex of 14, a shield and Mage armor, he gets a 17 AC. Or he could just suit up and save the spell slot.
    Considering that this is not a frontliner and that if he gets in melee range something has gone terribly wrong, what is traditionally considered the better choice with such a premise? Best to save the spell slot and invest in armour or to keep mobility and stealth in consideration? I just realised I've hardly ever played a primary wizard character, hence the rookie question
    For Life 1 / Necromancer Wizard X, you should generally get the armor.

    As a side note, Life 1 / Necromancy X with Mark of Healing is one of the better healers in the game, if you really want to push the 'master of life and death' angle from both ends. Considerably better than most clerics at healing, in fact.
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2023-05-28 at 01:37 AM.
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    Default Re: A lawful good/neutral good level 6 necromancer. thoughts?

    Stealth is an everybody on board kinda thing and especially at low levels the spell slot for maintaining mage armor is pretty significant. Medium to heavy armor will often be worth it if you can wear it.
    --
    The practical value of undead is pretty significant, even stuff like transportation and logistics benefit alot from extra bodies. I Say the big ones are:
    -constuction
    -heavy lifting
    -guard posting
    -autonomous warfare

    Agriculture came up, sanitation would be a concern, but not an insurmountable one. Remember we grow food from compost, which is how we get contamination in our lettuce sometimes. Well maintained corpses wouldn't be much different than handling from humans. Wash your vegetables before you eat them.

    Now, good people have invested interest in all of these things, think of the characters goals learning necromancy, and how necromancy applies too it.
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    Default Re: A lawful good/neutral good level 6 necromancer. thoughts?

    Also armies to fight off the horrified neighboring nations. And some kind of plan to deal with adventurer strike teams coming in to wipe out the casters.

    Even if necromancy isn't alignment evil, it's still likely to be culturally reviled by most non-necromantic nations and peoples.

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: A lawful good/neutral good level 6 necromancer. thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by dehro View Post
    Good stuff.
    On a more practical note, assuming that this character takes a 1 level dip in Life domain cleric, this gives him every armour proficiency. With a Dex of 14, a shield and Mage armor, he gets a 17 AC. Or he could just suit up and save the spell slot.
    Considering that this is not a frontliner and that if he gets in melee range something has gone terribly wrong, what is traditionally considered the better choice with such a premise? Best to save the spell slot and invest in armour or to keep mobility and stealth in consideration? I just realised I've hardly ever played a primary wizard character, hence the rookie question
    Do wear a medium armor. Half plate = 15 + 2 (dex) + 2(shield) = 19 AC. You won't melee, ever. But more AC = more effective HP = more survivability. AC is good for everyone, not just frontliners. Don't forget that enemy archers/spellcasters can reach you from 500ft away if your DM is nasty enough.

    Save a spell slot for the Shield spell for the occasional 24AC and absorb elements for higher levels (later Tier1- Tier2 onwards).

    In most battles you can just concentrate on a nasty control spell (e.g. web), let your minions deliver massive amounts of DPR and you simply dodge (for the disadvantage on attack rolls against you). Dissadvantage + 19 (24)AC almost guarantees that your area spell is always on. Your skellies can simply attack with range. You win the encounter. Or if you need extra damage, go as far away as you can and instead of dodge you do your cantrip (e.g. the very thematic chill touch).

    Your mobility = misty step + control spells (sleep, web, fog cloud) + your familiar (you can cast spells through him).

    This is a relatively standard optimisation blueprint for wizards.

    Stealth is quite occasional so no need to be always prepared for that, imo. If you need to be ultra stealthy for an encounter you can then plan accordingly. eg with prof in Arcana you can make scrolls (for invisibility).
    Invisibility + mage armor + minor image/prestigidation (for distractions) + silence + darkness + fog cloud (concentrate on 1) will do the job.

    Btw you can also get arcane eye at 7th lvl and you can be 100% invisible and safe.
    Last edited by DruidAlanon; 2023-05-28 at 09:11 AM.

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    Default Re: A lawful good/neutral good level 6 necromancer. thoughts?

    This thread is making me curious. If we make the following assumptions, how well count undead be integrated into society. Assume no drawbacks beyond the ones stated:

    • Undead will potentially attack any living being that gets close to them. The caster can pull them back if it's noticed, but an attack might get off before the caster has time to react and could be worse if the caster isn't around to step in. In practice this means that undead have to be sequestered away from living beings unless attacking is the whole point.
    • Undead can be told to set to a task, and will be able to adapt to said task at the level of a dim commoner, but cannot be given complex conditionals and will not change from one task to another unless the creator is present to command otherwise. (Or if another magical effect says as much, or if the undead become uncontrolled. But the former is likely going to require yet another high level caster to be kept on standby while the latter is a situation you want to avoid.) So no commanding the undead to suicide at a signal that can be given if the creator can't be present to reup control.
    • Undead in any appreciable quantities leach negative energy into the plane. Corpses nearby are more likely to spontaneously arise as uncontrolled undead. Animals and plants can't reach full vitality. Anything that is born and/or grows in the area is likely to be sickly or otherwise stunted, and even otherwise healthy adults tend to take longer to recover from illness an injury. Undead are unlikely to be around major population centers for the abovementioned "nonzero chance of random attack" reason, but this also means that agricultural undead will lead to smaller harvests of worse quality.
    • This is unchanged from the standard version but bears pointing out. Undead do require regular upkeep from casters with at least a few levels on them, and securing the area should also require guards to whom CR 1/4 skeletons are completely trivial. If each caster oversees exactly one undead, that seems like a waste compared to just hiring a commoner and pocketing the difference between 5th+ level caster wages and commoner wages. Since undead require regular upkeep instead of giving nigh-perpetual work for one upfront cost, it has to be economically worthwhile for everybody involved over other alternatives.


    I could see mining being one case where the problems are nicely negated. It has routines of going in to mine the ore and then coming back out with it, giving an easy opportunity for daily refresh casts. They're digging through solid stone where it's unlikely that living things will be impacted by any of the drawbacks. The potential dangers of the work mean that miners will require high pay and it's arguably better to send expendable skeletons instead. And the nature of mine openings means that it's easy for a few guards to be on hand in case of screwup and something feral coming out. That said, however, I'm hard pressed to think of other cases where a good aligned kingdom would find undead both morally and economically justifiable even if there were no other pressures.

  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Default Re: A lawful good/neutral good level 6 necromancer. thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anymage View Post
    I could see mining being one case where the problems are nicely negated. It has routines of going in to mine the ore and then coming back out with it, giving an easy opportunity for daily refresh casts. They're digging through solid stone where it's unlikely that living things will be impacted by any of the drawbacks. The potential dangers of the work mean that miners will require high pay and it's arguably better to send expendable skeletons instead. And the nature of mine openings means that it's easy for a few guards to be on hand in case of screwup and something feral coming out. That said, however, I'm hard pressed to think of other cases where a good aligned kingdom would find undead both morally and economically justifiable even if there were no other pressures.
    The issue with mining is that you need to know what are you doing (open-pit mining is more tolerant to mistakes, but the moment you get underground, the undead are useless without supervision). A skeleton may be expendable, but the cost of an collapsed mining shaft... which will happen more often with creatures without intelligence or sense of serf-preservation... more than make up for that.
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    Default Re: A lawful good/neutral good level 6 necromancer. thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    The issue with mining is that you need to know what are you doing (open-pit mining is more tolerant to mistakes, but the moment you get underground, the undead are useless without supervision). A skeleton may be expendable, but the cost of an collapsed mining shaft... which will happen more often with creatures without intelligence or sense of serf-preservation... more than make up for that.
    Also, it costs a ton less to have underpaid miners or prisoners or slaves work the mine than to hire a caster powerful enough to make an undead workforce and direct it.

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    Default Re: A lawful good/neutral good level 6 necromancer. thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    I think everything in this thread can be summarized as:

    If the DM is on board with you playing a good-aligned corpse-animator, you can.
    If the DM is not, it's not going to work.
    In broad strokes this is true but I think there's one additional layer - designer intent. Why do they continually add lines to the core books in every edition that discourage presumably heroic players from animating undead? I would argue it's because they want to provide covering fire for the DMs in the latter camp you mentioned. It's something the DM can point to and say "You can be a dedicated reanimator if you want, but here's why not a lot of good people in the world do that, and why you're likely to face censure or persecution if you try." They seem to want player-oriented necromancy to be, if not outright prevented, at least kept clandestine enough to not revolutionize most settings' industry or themes.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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