ToB: PrC and Disciplines, how does IL work around them?

[Dhoule]

I've been studying the ToB for a while now, wondering how I'd make a new character from that book, likely a Warblade that ends up becoming an Eternal Blade. The prerrequisites are easy, and it'd be no problem to go in there with a Warblade 10. But Eternal Blade loses access to a couple disciplines, and gives access to a new one in exchange: Devoted Spirit.

Now, Eternal Blade does explicitly say that you add its levels to your Initiator Level for the purpose of the max level of the maneuvers you can learn. But what, exactly, is my IL for Devoted Spirit? Because this isn't originally a Warblade discipline. Does that imply the max IL for learning maneuvers/stances from that discipline would be 15, at Eternal Blade 10 (5 from Warblade 10, and 10 from Eternal Blade 10)?

And what happens to the disciplines you lose access to, in case you wanted to get a maneuver/stance through a feat?

Thanks!

[Daisy]

I've been studying the ToB for a while now, wondering how I'd make a new character from that book, likely a Warblade that ends up becoming an Eternal Blade. The prerrequisites are easy, and it'd be no problem to go in there with a Warblade 10. But Eternal Blade loses access to a couple disciplines, and gives access to a new one in exchange: Devoted Spirit.

Now, Eternal Blade does explicitly say that you add its levels to your Initiator Level for the purpose of the max level of the maneuvers you can learn. But what, exactly, is my IL for Devoted Spirit? Because this isn't originally a Warblade discipline. Does that imply the max IL for learning maneuvers/stances from that discipline would be 15, at Eternal Blade 10 (5 from Warblade 10, and 10 from Eternal Blade 10)?

And what happens to the disciplines you lose access to, in case you wanted to get a maneuver/stance through a feat?

Thanks!

ToB, p39, under "Multiclass Characters" states: "Prestige classes work a little differently. In most cases, add the full prestige class level to your martial adept level to determine your initiator level."
ToB, p109, under Eternal Blade's "Class Features", "Maneuvers" states: "You add your full eternal blade levels to your initiator level to determine your total initiator level and your highest-level maneuvers known."

You initiator levels are by class, not discipline. So assuming you have gone Warblade 10/Eternal Blade x, I believe your initiator level for Eternal Blade would be 10+x. That's how we've been playing it at my table, anyway.

[Darg]

ToB, p39, under "Multiclass Characters" states: "Prestige classes work a little differently. In most cases, add the full prestige class level to your martial adept level to determine your initiator level."
ToB, p109, under Eternal Blade's "Class Features", "Maneuvers" states: "You add your full eternal blade levels to your initiator level to determine your total initiator level and your highest-level maneuvers known."

You initiator levels are by class, not discipline. So assuming you have gone Warblade 10/Eternal Blade x, I believe your initiator level for Eternal Blade would be 10+x. That's how we've been playing it at my table, anyway.

You got it right. Bloodstorm blade for example only gets half initiator levels (all classes get half) because it doesn't say you get full initiator levels.

[Daisy]

You got it right. Bloodstorm blade for example only gets half initiator levels (all classes get half) because it doesn't say you get full initiator levels.

I got approval from Darg. :) I always read your posts with interest, Darg. I now feel like I'm a true member of the forum!

[Chronos]

You don't have a Devoted Spirit initiator level; you have a Warblade initiator level. Which you can use to learn Devoted Spirit maneuvers, because Eternal Blade.

On the other end of the scale, if you took three levels each of Warblade, Swordsage, and Crusader, you would not have a "Stone Dragon initiator level" of 9; you'd have a Warblade IL of 6, a Swordsage IL of 6, and a Crusader IL of 6. You could learn a 3rd-level Stone Dragon maneuver as any one of those classes of your choice, but you couldn't learn a 4th or 5th level Stone Dragon maneuver (and it matters which class you learn a maneuver as, because they have different recovery mechanics).

[Dhoule]

So, as a Warblade 3, for example, there should be no problem to take Martial Studies: Foehammer, right? It's a 2nd level maneuver from DS, and I should qualify to it, even if I don't usually have access to it.

[loky1109]

So, as a Warblade 3, for example, there should be no problem to take Martial Studies: Foehammer, right? It's a 2nd level maneuver from DS, and I should qualify to it, even if I don't usually have access to it.

It's correct.

[Chronos]

Yes, and that's how non-swordsages can qualify for the Master of Nine prestige class (which requires knowing maneuvers from six different disciplines).

[Dhoule]

Damn. In any case, this makes my planned Eternal Blade even more feat-starved than it should already be. 1 (Weapon Focus, required for Eternal Blade), 3 (Power Attack), 6 (Martial Studies: Foehammer), 9 (Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades). At least, if I want to enter Eternal Blade with a couple DS maneuvers already known, to pick the high level ones, such as Strike of Righteous Vitality.

Do you guys think it'd be wiser to try and avoid spending a feat on Martial Studies and maybe delay or even avoid Martial Stance as well, and spend a handful of learnt maneuvers through class levels on low level DS maneuvers, trying to catch up, or would it be better to just spend those feats and start taking levels on Eternal Blade with 2 DS maneuvers already known?

[FactualArcher]

You could see if you can get the Devoted Spirit item to save you a feat but still allow you to start with some DS maneuvers known.

[Darg]

A one or two level dip into swordsage would get you weapon focus, stances, and additional maneuvers. Two levels fighter would grant you two feats and heavy armor proficiency. Soulknife grants you access to an always accessible weapon and weapon focus. Cleric with war domain gains weapon focus and some spells.

Or just simply dip crusader at an opportune time to get maneuvers and stances and invest in weapon focus separately.

[pabelfly]

A one or two level dip into swordsage would get you weapon focus, stances, and additional maneuvers. Two levels fighter would grant you two feats and heavy armor proficiency. Soulknife grants you access to an always accessible weapon and weapon focus. Cleric with war domain gains weapon focus and some spells.

Or just simply dip crusader at an opportune time to get maneuvers and stances and invest in weapon focus separately.

Any dips that aren't full BAB won't work if you want to reach the Eternal Blade capstone at level 20. But the suggested Fighter and Crusader dips are worth considering.

[Chronos]

You pretty much never want to add Fighter levels just to get Martial Study and/or Martial Stance. It's almost always more efficient to take a level of the appropriate initiator class, and get several maneuvers plus a stance, plus some other class feature, all at once.

[loky1109]

You pretty much never want to add Fighter levels just to get Martial Study and/or Martial Stance. It's almost always more efficient to take a level of the appropriate initiator class, and get several maneuvers plus a stance, plus some other class feature, all at once.

Sometimes you want Martial Study for class skill.
Martial Stance has another benefit - it doesn't have to be 1st level Stance.

[Darg]

it doesn't have to be 1st level Stance.

Where does it say this? The only thing I can find is "You begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance from any discipline open to you." "Beginning play" does not equal "must choose a first level stance at first level."

[Kish]

The Martial Stance feat gives you one stance you otherwise qualify for. If you're a sixth-level fighter who already has one Devoted Spirit maneuver, that would qualify you for Thicket of Blades, for example.

(Of course, a Warblade 5 whose sixth level was Crusader could also immediately take Thicket of Blades, so I agree with "if you're looking for maneuvers it'll be a very rare day that it's better to take a fighter level than an actual martial adept level.")