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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Help Designing my Pantheon

    I have an idea for my Pantheon to be a smaller group of dieties. However, to make up for their smaller number, they cover an extremely wide array of Domains, albeit, they are often opposites of each other.

    Example, the God of War and Bloodshed is also the God of Peace and Harmony. He is the same being, cosmically speaking, but each god has a sort of duality to them. They are both good and evil, law and chaos, life and death, etc.

    What would be a good way to explain this in a more encyclopedic manner, like it was a chapter in a book?
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    Default Re: Help Designing my Pantheon

    The pantheon of [Insert World-name here] is one of Duality. Each member holds total sway over it's domain: it's presence, and its lack. Therefore war and peace are not in opposition, but a spectrum, and every shade on this spectrum falls under the perview of [Insert Gods name here]. This leads to the interesting situation that folks may pray to the same god for opposite outcomes.
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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Help Designing my Pantheon

    Here is an attempt, using the cleric domains of D&D 5e.

    Name Province Domains Symbol
    Asclenosos god of medecine and ailments Knowledge1, Nature a snake coiled around a chalice
    Eileithana goddess of death and rebirth Death2, Life a flowered tombstone
    Hephaeolus god of craft and the elements Forge, Tempest a hammer with lightning bolts
    Hyperiane goddess of days and nights Light, Twilight a crescent moon within a sun
    Pallas goddess of civilization Peace, War a city gate flanked by towers
    Zeal god of rulers and rebels Order, Trickery a crown above a dagger
    1. or Arcana
    2. or Grave

    Some believe that the gods like to "teach and challenge", each one preparing mortals for dangers that the deity itself will summon. Others believe the gods to be fearsome aspects of the world that have taken pity on mortals and decided to give them a fighting chance. Yet others speak of entities so opposite that they have effectively become halves of the same coins.
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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Re: Help Designing my Pantheon

    I don't know how much this helps, but I've thought a bit about which pairs of domains are opposites of each other, so I can make some suggestions there.


    1. Knowledge vs. Trickery: truth vs. fiction, honesty vs. dishonesty, certainty vs. uncertainty
    2. Light vs. Tempest: light vs. dark, hot vs. cold, positive emotions vs. negative emotions
    3. Life vs. Death: health vs. illness, healing vs. harming, life vs. unlife
    4. Nature vs. Forge: natural vs. artificial, acceptance vs. change, harmony vs. discipline
    5. War vs. Peace: violence vs. nonviolence, competition vs. cooperation, cynicism vs. idealism
    6. Twilight vs. Zeal: protection vs. aggression, caution vs. boldness, calm vs. excitement
    7. Solidarity vs. Ambition: loyalty vs. betrayal, collectivism vs. individualism, altruism vs. selfishness
    8. Order vs. Strength: conformity vs. independence, interdependence vs. self-sufficiency, political power vs. personal power
    9. Grave vs. Arcana: finality vs. reinvention, inevitability vs. limitless possibility, entropy vs. magic

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Help Designing my Pantheon

    Thanks for the help so far those that have responded.

    I took the description almost word for word, and some of the Domain ideas almost word for word, and here is what I came up with:

    The Gods of Okeanos

    The pantheon of Okeanos is one of Duality. Each member holds total sway over it's domain: it's presence, and its lack. Therefore war and peace are not in opposition, but a spectrum, life begets death, and every shade on this spectrum falls under the purview of its relevant Deity. This leads to situations that Okeanos's inhabitants may end up praying to the same god for opposite outcomes.

    Many of these gods are also known to favor one end of their spectrum more favorably than others. A God of War may be seen more for their ability to bring peace, or as a patron of honorable warriors, while also being worshipped by barbaric savages who merely fight for the sake of shedding blood, a God of Merchants and Sailors may be known more for its cruelty of causing deadly storms, and the God of Life and Healing may appear as the Angel of Death that harvests souls when their time on the mortal world is expired.


    Viteos

    Common Domains - Life, Order, Death, Grave
    Holy Symbol - A face, half of which is that of a newborn babe, the other of an old man.

    Spoiler
    Show
    Viteos's favored personality is that of a benevolent God, as he is the one who controls healing, births, and medicine. He is the patron of doctors, apothecaries, and midwives. They also are the ones that perform funeral rites and care for burial grounds. These followers absolutely abhor Undeath, and will go out of their way to destroy them, and those who create them if capable.

    His less common personality, is a terrifying God of undeath, murder, and disease. This form uses a warped Holy symbol, which appears as a face, half of which appears ill or dying, the other is skeletal. These followers are also often practicing Necromancers, grave-robbers, and murderers/assassins.

    Viteos is the leader of the Pantheon, although not necessarily the most powerful of them. His wife is Bellias.



    Bellias

    Common Domains - War, Peace, Knowledge, Trickery
    Holy Symbol - A flaming sword imposed over a scroll.

    Spoiler
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    Bellias is most commonly known as an honorable goddess of warriors and knighthood. She is the patron of many knightly orders, mercenary bands, and monastic orders. Her followers are most often militairy officers, strategists, war historians, and those who persue perfecting their martial abilities.

    Her less common personality is that of a pillaging warlord and executioner that brings death to the weak. Instead of honor, she favors survival of the fittest and her followers believe more in 'might makes right' than honor, or even outright betrayal of allegiances. Followers of this aspect of Bellias are barbarian warlords, rebels, savage tribesman, and those who simply enjoy fighting for the sake of shedding blood. These followers have an altered holy symbol, that of a Flaming sword impaled through a rolled up scroll.

    Bellias is wed to Viteos.



    Mageos

    Common Domains - Arcana, Knowledge, Nature, Light
    Holy Symbol - A gilded tome locked closed.

    Spoiler
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    Mageos is most commonly seen as a power hungry God, entirely focused on perfecting his magical repetoire and altering reality with his immense power. His more commonly known followers are greedy and tyrranical Magic Users, Scholars, and Spies who deal in the trading of critical information. His followers believe in 'a means to an end' when it comes to gaining power, and many of his most powerful worshippers included Liches, Spymasters, and corrupt political figures.

    Mageos's lesser known personality is that of a benevolent nature spirit. He protects the woodlands and pristine natural locations of the world. These followers employ agriculture, proper harvesting of crops and wild game, and do their best to nurture, conserve, and maintain their environments in a nearly symbiotic way. Farmers, Hunters, Fishermen, and many Druidic Circles worship this side of Mageos. They use a holy symbol which appears as an open book with images of leaves and plants on its pages.



    Fictias

    Common Domains - Tempest, Forge, Trickery, Knowledge
    Holy Symbol - A blank nondescript mask, wreathed in dark flames.

    Spoiler
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    Fictias most commonly associated personality is of a fickle goddess of jokes, pranks, and cons. She believes that being serious is never correct, and a good joke or prank can never go unappreciated. She is just as likely to save her followers, as she is to send them a blessing which ends up making the situation worse in some way. Her most common followers are Bards, Jesters, Circus performers, and politicians.

    Fictias's lesser known aspect is that of the Gods' master crafter. She is a masterful Blacksmith, and helped craft each of her peers favored weapons in the fires of her personal forge. Where as her darker aspect prefers the roar of a crowds laughter, her lighter aspect prefers the sounds of roaring flames and the beating of her hammer against hot steel on an anvil. The followers of this aspect include many craftsmen such as blacksmiths, leatherworkers, stone masons, and many other professions which require physical labor 'destroying' one thing to create another. These followers use a holy symbol that appears as an anvil wreathed in flames.



    Lunias

    Common Domains - Light, Twilight, Nature, Tempest
    Holy Symbol - The triune moon.

    Spoiler
    Show
    Lunias is best know as the goddess of the sun, moon, and stars. It is her role in the cosmos to ensure that the cycle of night and day continues, as well as the changing of the eides each day. Her followers include many folk who rely on the sun and/or moon, such as farmers, sailors, merchants, and certain druidic circles. They view Dawn and Dusk as holy periods when her power is at its peak, often praying to her at least once during each of these periods.

    Lunias's lesser worshipped aspect is that of a dread spirit of darkness, fear, and primal savagery. This version of her is predatory and lavishes the thrill of chasing down the weak, hiding in the darkness of the deep woods and causing terror, and also summoning tropical storms to ravage coastal waters and settlements. Her followers in the aspect include pirates, evil druids, and many creatures of the night that prey on fear and terror. They use a holy symbol which appears as a partially eclipsed moon with angry eyes inside the dark section.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Default Re: Help Designing my Pantheon

    Some questions that might help you flesh out the mythology of these gods, and the religions corresponding to them:

    First big question: Did these gods create or meaningfully shape the world as it exists now, or did they merely assume power over a pre-existing world? Are there other gods who preceded them in mastery over the world? Are there ones who seek to supplant them?

    What is the relationship of these gods to the domains you have assigned to them? Do these things pre-exist the gods, who merely assume responsibility for governing them? Or do these things only happen when the gods cause them to? Or, further still, are these gods simply embodiments of these concepts, and arise/draw power out of them?

    Let's take the example of Bellias. Did the contraries of War and Peace exist before she did, and she simply possesses a particular affinity for them? Or did she, by her existence or her actions, bring these dualities into existence? If she brought them into existence, why? If she were destroyed, would these things cease to exist?

    What is the relationship of these gods to each other? Are they a family, with a common origin and shared goals? Are they independent beings who have simply agreed to divide power amongst themselves? Is there a hierarchy among them? If yes, how did it emerge? If not, why not? Do any of them want to be in charge of the others? Have any of them ever tried?

    In respect to this last one, I think it could be cool if supremacy rests with a shifting coalition of three gods, while two gods at a time are in the minority. That way, different historical epochs could be suited to different styles of fantasy. So, in one age, Viteos, Bellias, and Lunias are the ruling coalition, so the world is more generally peaceful, civilization exists in harmony with nature, and society is ruled by honorable warrior-kings, and you've got a High Fantasy setting. But in another age, when Bellias, Fictias, and Mageos are the ruling coalition, the world is ruled by mighty sorcerers, conflict is rife, and corruption and decadence pervade, and now you've got a Sword-and-Sorcery setting.

    Next what relationship do these gods have to mankind and the other sentient beings of your setting? Did the gods create any of them, or claim to? How did mortals learn about the gods and their nature? How do the gods expect mortals to behavewith respect to them? Are there disputes between peoples about the nature of the gods? Do the gods hold any secrets from mortals?

    Particular to the 'dualistic' gods you seemed to have settled on; do these gods always exist in both aspects simultaneously? Do they switch back and forth? At what intervals do they switch?

    Not all of these questions need definite answers; in fact, your setting will probably be more rich if some of them have no answers, or if the answers are never known for certain by players/readers. But thinking about them will probably help make these gods feel like they occupy a real-mythology, and are dynamic rather than static forces in your world.
    Last edited by Catullus64; 2023-06-03 at 11:28 AM.
    The desire to appear clever often impedes actually being so.

    What makes the vanity of others offensive is the fact that it wounds our own.

    Quarrels don't last long if the fault is only on one side.

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    We hardly ever find anyone of good sense, except those who agree with us.

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  7. - Top - End - #7
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Help Designing my Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by Catullus64 View Post
    Some questions that might help you flesh out the mythology of these gods, and the religions corresponding to them:
    Good questions, I'll try and come up with answers for as many as I can then expand them from there for my players. It will definitely help flesh some of the settings background and Religious lore out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catullus64 View Post
    First big question: Did these gods create or meaningfully shape the world as it exists now, or did they merely assume power over a pre-existing world? Are there other gods who preceded them in mastery over the world? Are there ones who seek to supplant them?
    They definitely shaped the regions where they are commonly worshipped, the PC's homelands, but I am thinking they will be unique to the locales where they are worshipped, and while travelling the seas, and discovering new worlds, they may encounter alternative religions, which may or may not be accepted by the followers of the Five.

    The world as a whole was not their creation, they're simply regional deities from my settings "Europe" and nobody outside of that continent even knows who they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catullus64 View Post
    What is the relationship of these gods to the domains you have assigned to them? Do these things pre-exist the gods, who merely assume responsibility for governing them? Or do these things only happen when the gods cause them to? Or, further still, are these gods simply embodiments of these concepts, and arise/draw power out of them?

    Let's take the example of Bellias. Did the contraries of War and Peace exist before she did, and she simply possesses a particular affinity for them? Or did she, by her existence or her actions, bring these dualities into existence? If she brought them into existence, why? If she were destroyed, would these things cease to exist?
    The Gods have dominion over these domains in the regions their followers worship them, and when one faction goes to War, it is because Bellias dictated it to happen through visions to the leaders of their warriors. As far as happening before the gods took power, as far as everyone alive knows, the gods always have been around, their history doesn't know of any periods before they existed.

    I think them being 'embodiments' of these various ideals is a good concept. Bellias as a physical being came about in ancient times after many mortals prayed for war and peace to happen, and they manifested her into physical form. Eventually, their pleases for violence and or harmony coalesced into the entity modern day inhabitants refer to as Bellias, altho she has always been there governing those domains, her followers gave her a physical form.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catullus64 View Post
    What is the relationship of these gods to each other? Are they a family, with a common origin and shared goals? Are they independent beings who have simply agreed to divide power amongst themselves? Is there a hierarchy among them? If yes, how did it emerge? If not, why not? Do any of them want to be in charge of the others? Have any of them ever tried?

    In respect to this last one, I think it could be cool if supremacy rests with a shifting coalition of three gods, while two gods at a time are in the minority. That way, different historical epochs could be suited to different styles of fantasy. So, in one age, Viteos, Bellias, and Lunias are the ruling coalition, so the world is more generally peaceful, civilization exists in harmony with nature, and society is ruled by honorable warrior-kings, and you've got a High Fantasy setting. But in another age, when Bellias, Fictias, and Mageos are the ruling coalition, the world is ruled by mighty sorcerers, conflict is rife, and corruption and decadence pervade, and now you've got a Sword-and-Sorcery setting.
    I mentioned it originally for two of them, Viteos and Bellias are husband and wife, and technically lead the rest of them as the primary gods, but they arent necessarily stronger than the others. I didn't get into too much detail beyond that, I considered them all being non-related entities that sort of have a Polyamourous relationship, and lesser demigods such as racial Deities like Gruumsh, Lolth, or Correllon Larethian, amongst others, are their children, capable of giving power to Clerics, but not with true power over the entire domain. They're simply intermediaries between their worshippers and their parents.

    I think they exist in a shared 'council' for determining how they handle the world. Viteos and Bellias "lead" the others only because their Domains hold precedent over that sort of organization, but they view each other as equals, cosmically speaking.


    Quote Originally Posted by Catullus64 View Post
    Next what relationship do these gods have to mankind and the other sentient beings of your setting? Did the gods create any of them, or claim to? How did mortals learn about the gods and their nature? How do the gods expect mortals to behave with respect to them? Are there disputes between peoples about the nature of the gods? Do the gods hold any secrets from mortals?
    The gods are not responsible for the Mortals directly, however, they have given birth to many of the "Racial Deities" i mentioned earlier, which have influenced evolution to create their own sub-species, Gruumsh's Orcs, Lolth's Drow, etc. In some ways, the relationship is two sided, because it was the direct worships of their ideals that gave 'birth' to the Gods' physical manifestations. Before the organized worship and naming of them by these worshippers, they were just amalgamations of divine energy with no true physical forms.

    The disputes mainly arise between worshippers of the opposite end of the spectrum of any single Deity. War worshippers often come to blows and disagreements with Peace. Life vs Death, etc. There is very little strife between Mageos's and Fictias's followers as far are religious beliefs, it usually would only be due to personal issues unrelated to their domain or religious views.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catullus64 View Post
    Particular to the 'dualistic' gods you seemed to have settled on; do these gods always exist in both aspects simultaneously? Do they switch back and forth? At what intervals do they switch?
    Yes, they always exist in both aspects, almost to the point of them actually being two different beings. I think it is almost like a human and their shadow. They are not schizophrenic, they are fully aware of their dual nature, but there is definitely a "preferred" aspect each God tends to show up as, if they ever directly intervene on a mortal's behalf, or in dreams and visions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catullus64 View Post
    Not all of these questions need definite answers; in fact, your setting will probably be more rich if some of them have no answers, or if the answers are never known for certain by players/readers. But thinking about them will probably help make these gods feel like they occupy a real-mythology, and are dynamic rather than static forces in your world.
    This was definitely a worldbuilding exercise, im glad you asked just in-depth questions. I had been putting off this sort of thing since coming up with them, but I have no regrets having answered them.
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  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Re: Help Designing my Pantheon

    A couple of those deities don't strike me as all that dualistic. Most of them do, but Mageos's and Fictias's primary and secondary aspects both seem more like opposites of each other than of their intended counterparts. Serious, long-term planner versus silly and impulsive. Preserving nature versus transforming its raw materials into new forms to suit one's own purposes. (Also, I'd personally think that the opposite of secrecy and consolidation of power would be revelation and egalitarianism.)

    Thinking about it, a lot of spectra have distinct middle parts that might make more sense as the position favored by a deity of X and not-X. Like... mortality, aging, and eventual natural death (Grave) sort of rests between good health, reproduction, and survival (Life) and illness, murder, and undeath (Death). Similarly, Order is sort of an alternative to both War and Peace, with strong opinions about the value of both violence and nonviolence, unwilling to surrender control to either. This approach has Rule Of Three going for it, for what that's worth. Then again, each of those third options has its own opposite in the form of immortality and chaos, which serves as its own compromise between the two relevant extremes. So I guess it's more like some aspects of existence require a two-axis model to cover everything.

    Anyway, as to the "why" of all this, it probably has something to do with various concepts necessitating their opposites. Like, there could be a world without violence and without conflict, but not only would its inhabitants have no notion of war, they'd have no notion of peace either! Because, like, peace in contrast to what? (Makes me wonder what things we can't recognize due to our universe's lack of alternatives!)

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Help Designing my Pantheon

    I wont lie, after the first 3, the final two actually took a bit of logic stretching to make sense of their "duality" mainly because I ran out of easily aligned opposites with the official Domains.

    For Mageos, his "duality" comes from the 'Means to an End' nature of his lust for power. He will alter reality and shift mountains to the detriment of anything in their way to gain even a small iota of power, while his more nurturing side believes entirely in not being wasteful, living in harmony with the land around you, and nurturing your community/neighbors.


    I may revisit these in the future, and tweak them a bit, I like the idea of a middle ground, the issue is the lack of options that really fit all possible combinations
    Last edited by Mongobear; 2023-06-03 at 08:28 PM.
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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Help Designing my Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by Mongobear View Post
    I think them being 'embodiments' of these various ideals is a good concept. Bellias as a physical being came about in ancient times after many mortals prayed for war and peace to happen, and they manifested her into physical form. Eventually, their pleases for violence and or harmony coalesced into the entity modern day inhabitants refer to as Bellias, altho she has always been there governing those domains, her followers gave her a physical form.
    This has a certain Discworld feel to it. The novels have an increasingly blurry line between the "gods", who exist because mortals believe they do, and "personifications" who actually are (or at least are heavily involved in maintaining) large aspects of the world.

    Also, when asked about the possibility of a personification of life, Death claims to have never met or heard of one. I myself wonder what such a being would have left to do when Death is already surrounded by hourglasses and books that represent each person's life (and kill that person if tempered with). This makes me think that Death is also Life but finds it easier to manifest the latter aspect as said hourglasses and books. Likewise, I headcanon that his friend War has a pet dove named Peace.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devils_Advocate View Post
    Thinking about it, a lot of spectra have distinct middle parts that might make more sense as the position favored by a deity of X and not-X. Like... mortality, aging, and eventual natural death (Grave) sort of rests between good health, reproduction, and survival (Life) and illness, murder, and undeath (Death). Similarly, Order is sort of an alternative to both War and Peace, with strong opinions about the value of both violence and nonviolence, unwilling to surrender control to either. This approach has Rule Of Three going for it, for what that's worth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mongobear View Post
    I may revisit these in the future, and tweak them a bit, I like the idea of a middle ground, the issue is the lack of options that really fit all possible combinations
    Let me try this Ro3 approach:
    • Life/Grave/Death for Viteos.
    • Peace/Order/War for Bellias.
    • Knowledge/Arcana/Trickery for Mageos.
    • Forge/Tempest/Nature for Fictias.
    • Light/Twilight for Lunias.

    I actually found it easier than with pairs, just missing a Darkness domain for Lunias. A pity too, because it would be neat for the goddess of the sky to also be the goddess of caves and the oceanic depths. On that note, does your world have an underdark?
    Last edited by Millstone85; 2023-06-04 at 06:21 AM.
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  11. - Top - End - #11
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Help Designing my Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by Millstone85 View Post
    This has a certain Discworld feel to it. The novels have an increasingly blurry line between the "gods", who exist because mortals believe they do, and "personifications" who actually are (or at least are heavily involved in maintaining) large aspects of the world.

    Also, when asked about the possibility of a personification of life, Death claims to have never met or heard of one. I myself wonder what such a being would have left to do when Death is already surrounded by hourglasses and books that represent each person's life (and kill that person if tempered with). This makes me think that Death is also Life but finds it easier to manifest the latter aspect as said hourglasses and books. Likewise, I headcanon that his friend War has a pet dove named Peace.
    Interesting, I've heard of Discworld, but have no idea about how its actually organised. If I am using similarities to it already, I may need to look it up for some inspiration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Millstone85 View Post
    Let me try this Ro3 approach:
    • Life/Grave/Death for Viteos.
    • Peace/Order/War for Bellias.
    • Knowledge/Arcana/Trickery for Mageos.
    • Forge/Tempest/Nature for Fictias.
    • Light/Twilight for Lunias.

    I actually found it easier than with pairs, just missing a Darkness domain for Lunias. A pity too, because it would be neat for the goddess of the sky to also be the goddess of caves and the oceanic depths. On that note, does your world have an underdark?
    The closest thing to true Darkness is Twilight, but thats better suited for the middle ground. You could maybe use Tempest or Nature for the Ocean thing, she'd be the goddess of the sun, moon, sky, and ocean depths, which sort of fits. It gets a bit wonky sticking with the options available in 5e.
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    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Help Designing my Pantheon

    Yeah, neither Twilight nor Tempest really covers the whole "lurking terrors" association of darkness (that tends to be undermined a bit by PCs having darkvision). Or rather, that's mentioned as something that Twilight guards against, but there's not a domain that does it, which seems kind of like the more basic role. Sorta putting the cart before the horse there, but then player character options aren't really for antagonists, so maybe just not covering this is fine? The Ambition domain from Plane Shift: Amonkhet kind of covers sudden, unexpected attacks, but only in spirit, not execution, and with nothing tying it to darkness specifically. ... All not too unlike the way that Light itself is more fiery than radiant (and, incidentally, does nothing to back up its supposed association with renewal), come to think of it.

    I wouldn't necessarily worry too much about what Cleric Domains specifically cover. That's a good source of inspiration, but maybe not the best thing to limit yourself to.


    I guess that one question here is whether you want there to be one all-encompassing duality or a different one for each deity. I had assumed the latter, so that e.g a god of the wilderness and a god of forge might get mashed together as "opposite ends" of the same entity. But it seems more like you're going for an overall good and evil, light and dark, honorable and dishonorable, sort of thing. Not necessarily all nor any particular one of those, but at least kind of sort of the same general basic vibe in a "family resemblance" sort of way.

    With that approach, a fairly traditional portfolio serves as the whole relevant spectrum, not just as one end of it, as you most clearly did with Bellias. So applying that to a forge deity, for example, gives you (1) your kindly, helpful craftsman and inventor who promotes the long-term value of hard work, opposed by (2) the dark lord whose military-industrial complex is fueled by cutting down entire forests and belches out huge clouds of black smoke, befouling the air and the land and so on and so forth.

    ... Of course, it doesn't have to be that formulaic. You can have honorable warrior versus dishonorable warrior and good nature versus bad industry, I guess. Still feel like lolrandom trickery versus crafting and tree hugging versus secretive ambition makes less sense than lolrandom trickery versus secretive ambition and tree hugging versus crafting.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Help Designing my Pantheon

    What I am starting to think about is cutting out the suggested Domains part, and choose more generic classifications that can cover a wider range of concepts. Limiting myself to the actual Cleric Domains as they exist in 5e will result in a ton of overlap, or just flat out not having options for certain Gods.
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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Help Designing my Pantheon

    for a discussion about a polytheistic pantheon, there's very little mention of two things:
    1. the afterlife
    2. ethics/morality

    In OOTS, mortals' souls go to their most aligned paradise/hell...

    In real-world polytheistic religions, there was usually a select individual (or group) who had the "responsibility" over the afterlife, and the rest of the pantheon didn't touch it...

    This bleeds in to the morality question:
    if the pantheon has a "duality" theme, how do good and evil figure into it?
    How this is framed, should ideally have a huge impact on how worshippers perceive each aspect.

    For example:
    two sides of a coin:
    If the "peace aspect" rewards martyrs and those who stand against violence, while the "war aspect" punishes the violent,
    there will be a clear bias among worshippers in favour of "peace".

    complementary/negation overlap:
    However, if "war" rewards brave warriors and punishes cowards, while "peace" rewards martyrs and punishes the needlessly brutal, they might cancel out (resulting in "neutral" limbo) or overlap for double effect.
    Maybe mortals who are known to have been dually blessed are venerated as a special category of saints?

    This should lead to very interesting organisational dynamics among their respective follower sects.
    For one, there would be a tangible reason why all armies avoid perpetrating war crimes, with one notable exception:
    the effective non-existence of the very concept of "war captives".
    Also, there would be a very controversial, blurry, fine line between "turning the other cheek" and "surrendering".

    That's just one example, but one could think of equivalent situations for all the dualities.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Help Designing my Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by MetroAlien View Post
    In real-world polytheistic religions, there was usually a select individual (or group) who had the "responsibility" over the afterlife, and the rest of the pantheon didn't touch it...
    That could be the case here too, if Viteos doesn't just ferry the dead like Charon but also rules over them like Hades. In addition, Viteos could have souls go through several lives before deciding them fit for the final realm, making him the god of birth, death, undeath, reincarnation and the afterlife (as well as healing, disease, nurture and murder).

    However, if "war" rewards brave warriors and punishes cowards, while "peace" rewards martyrs and punishes the needlessly brutal, they might cancel out (resulting in "neutral" limbo) or overlap for double effect.
    Maybe mortals who are known to have been dually blessed are venerated as a special category of saints?
    And mortals who have been dually cursed, such as one who was both a brute to the weak and a coward when threatened, could be a special category among the damned.

    For one, there would be a tangible reason why all armies avoid perpetrating war crimes, with one notable exception: the effective non-existence of the very concept of "war captives".
    Because a honorable warrior wouldn't deny their enemies the blessing of martyrdom? Perhaps, though it is not unheard of for a faith to reject "sending someone to Heaven" as a valid reason to kill, regardless of what the rest of its beliefs would dictate.
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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Help Designing my Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by Millstone85 View Post
    Because a honorable warrior wouldn't deny their enemies the blessing of martyrdom? Perhaps, though it is not unheard of for a faith to reject "sending someone to Heaven" as a valid reason to kill, regardless of what the rest of its beliefs would dictate.
    yes, I can imagine that also being the case...
    but as I pointed out, the idea of non-violent resistance would be very controversial in this society because it walks the tightrope over cowardice.
    I imagine many leaders would train their armies to fight until death as a matter of ideology, à la Imperial Japan of WW2.
    Moreover, anyone suspected of surrendering would be punished severely, because it's not only "treason", but also a cardinal sin.
    There could be priests in the war camp educating soldiers about the ill-favour associated with survival as a loser.
    Lastly, as a matter of practicality, for the type of personality who would surrender out of determination/protest as opposed to cowardice, there would be institutionalised fringe sects/cults/orders dedicated to this exact ideology, that keep these people out of the regular army.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Millstone85's Avatar

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    Default Re: Help Designing my Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by MetroAlien View Post
    yes, I can imagine that also being the case...
    but as I pointed out, the idea of non-violent resistance would be very controversial in this society because it walks the tightrope over cowardice.
    There could be priests in the war camp educating soldiers about the ill-favour associated with survival as a loser.
    Ah, I see. But alternatively, the peace and order aspects of Bellias could teach about the eventual end of the conflict and how soldiers will return to familial duties so the nation can repopulate and prepare for the next war. Captured-and-released soldiers will then be more useful than corpses. Victorious soldiers would of course be promised an easier time prospering during this peace.
    Last edited by Millstone85; 2023-07-11 at 07:10 AM.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Help Designing my Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by DMwithoutPC's View Post
    The pantheon of [Insert World-name here] is one of Duality. Each member holds total sway over it's domain: it's presence, and its lack. Therefore war and peace are not in opposition, but a spectrum, and every shade on this spectrum falls under the perview of [Insert Gods name here]. This leads to the interesting situation that folks may pray to the same god for opposite outcomes.
    This sounds good to me.

    Alternately there could be a sort of horseshoe theory thing going on where taking one thing to an extreme causes it to become like its opposite. Like how D&D's undead are up and about because they have negative life-force

    EDIT:
    Also, maybe look into Warhammer's chaos gods, most of them have a duality thing going on (Slannesh- pleasure and pain; Nurgle- Life and death; Tzeentch- Change for the better and change for the worse)

    EDIT:
    If all living things are killed there will be total and neverending peace
    Last edited by Bohandas; 2023-07-16 at 01:41 PM.
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