Anything in PHB II to look out for?

[Darg]

Arcane Fusion is an "effect dependent on spell level".

You missed the fact that sanctum spell's effect does not come into effect until the spell is actually cast. This is the operational RAW that prevents your understanding from being logical.

Sanctum Spell explicitly alters that "spell's level" to its full effect!

No, it alters the "effective spell level." The spell level of the spell effect is altered, not the actual level of the spell. Unlike heighten spell, it can't be argued that it is the case (and it's still a weak argument).

The errata failed to pick the right words to create a correct RAW reading.

It didn't account for illogical readings of sanctum/heighten type metamagics. If you heighten to 4th using earth spell, it's not treated as a 5th level spell by arcane fusion.

[Crake]

words

Sanctum spell does not adjust a spell’s level until the time of casting. Until then, it is in a superposition of +/-1 spell level, and thus just uses its normal spell level for calculations, so you cant treat it as a lower spell level than normal.

Also worth noting that applying metamagic to a spell as a sorcerer increases the cast time to a full round action, meaning it no longer qualifies for arcane fusion unless you have some form of rapid metamagic

[Darg]

Also worth noting that applying metamagic to a spell as a sorcerer increases the cast time to a full round action, meaning it no longer qualifies for arcane fusion unless you have some form of rapid metamagic

That's a little much. Arcane fusion is a sorc only spell and the errata specifically states you can use metamagic with it. Logic being that it's arcane fusion casting the spell.

[Crake]

That's a little much. Arcane fusion is a sorc only spell and the errata specifically states you can use metamagic with it. Logic being that it's arcane fusion casting the spell.

I dunno, if you’re fusing a metamagiced spell, rather than metamagicking arcane fusion itself, then the “spell” youre plugging into arcane fusion inherits ALL the properties of the metamagic

[Gruftzwerg]

You missed the fact that sanctum spell's effect does not come into effect until the spell is actually cast. This is the operational RAW that prevents your understanding from being logical.

And you missed the fact that this is totally irrelevant for the specific situation that Arcane Fusions + Arcane Thesis creates.
Arcane Fusion does not care for the spell slot level that you would prepare it into, because the spells used to fill Arcane Fusion are never prepared. Arcane Fusion sole cares for the "spell level" and that is exactly what is being altered by Sanctum Spell. Sanctum Spell even explicitly calls out that all "spell level" dependent things are adjusted accordingly. Arcane Fusions "spell level" limitations is such an effect that is dependent on "spell level".

No, it alters the "effective spell level." The spell level of the spell effect is altered, not the actual level of the spell. Unlike heighten spell, it can't be argued that it is the case (and it's still a weak argument).

Yeah "effective spell level" and still not "effective spell slot level"...
Seems to prove my point.. dunno what your intention here was.

1. As said, Sanctum spell explicitly calls out that you should use the adjusted level for all spell level dependent things.
2. Arcane Fusion expects you to use the adjusted spell level

Both talk about adjusted spell level and not about adjusted spell slot level.

It didn't account for illogical readings of sanctum/heighten type metamagics. If you heighten to 4th using earth spell, it's not treated as a 5th level spell by arcane fusion.

No, it would be treated as a 4th lvl spell since that is the level Heighten Spell did raise it to.
The same goes for Sanctum Spell. If it reduces a Spell's Level, that level is the relevant one for Arcane Fusion.

Sanctum spell does not adjust a spell’s level until the time of casting. Until then, it is in a superposition of +/-1 spell level, and thus just uses its normal spell level for calculations, so you cant treat it as a lower spell level than normal.

Thanks god that Sorcerers don't have to prepare spells but cast em spontaneously. Thus Arcane Fusion will never check the inserted spell's level outside of the cast itself. The problem you are trying to picture here, never exists..

Really, are you so full of disproving me that you start to ignore basic rules in your arguments?
I kindly ask you to calm down (and get outta the "must disprove G" mode), cause I don't think you would have made this oversight if you wouldn't be upset in some way. At least imho I was not expecting that you would ignore such basic things in your argument.. I normally kinda used better arguments from you. (this is not meant to be offending, it's just that I feel that some people are getting to much heated up in the discussions lately..)

Also worth noting that applying metamagic to a spell as a sorcerer increases the cast time to a full round action, meaning it no longer qualifies for arcane fusion unless you have some form of rapid metamagic

As if that would be any problem that you couldn't overcome in 3.5...

Arcane Spellsurge
or
Accelerate Metamagic: (Sanctum Spell)

..pick either one and the problem is solved.


_________________________
Really, what have I done to earn this much backlash?? I kindy ask everybody to question themselves what their motives are here. Stop turning the discussions into a witch hunt.

[Crake]

Thanks god that Sorcerers don't have to prepare spells but cast em spontaneously. Thus Arcane Fusion will never check the inserted spell's level outside of the cast itself. The problem you are trying to picture here, never exists..

Except that you never actually cast the sanctum spell, you only get the EFFECT of the sanctum spell (including its bonus/penalty spell level) AFTER casting arcane spellsurge, so the spell level isnt adjusted until after arcane spellsurge is cast.

As if that would be any problem that you couldn't overcome in 3.5...

I never said it was impossible to overcome, merely that it was a hurdle that you needed to be mindful of, I even literally state “unless you have some form of rapid metamagic”. Solve the problem how you like, but it IS a problem that you need to invest resources into solving, you cant just do it out the box.

[Darg]

And you missed the fact that this is totally irrelevant for the specific situation that Arcane Fusions + Arcane Thesis creates.
Arcane Fusion does not care for the spell slot level that you would prepare it into, because the spells used to fill Arcane Fusion are never prepared. Arcane Fusion sole cares for the "spell level" and that is exactly what is being altered by Sanctum Spell. Sanctum Spell even explicitly calls out that all "spell level" dependent things are adjusted accordingly. Arcane Fusions "spell level" limitations is such an effect that is dependent on "spell level".

It's not irrelevant. The sentence you keep using as your evidence only ever has relevance after the spell has been cast as the feat itself states. The spell level of the spell isn't modified until after the spell is cast, not in preparation of the cast. Otherwise you could get arcane preparation and prepare the sanctum spell when outside of your sanctum in a spell slot one lower because that would be the "normal" spell slot of a spell of that level. It simply does not work that way, nor does it say it does. You're extrapolating an explanatory sentence beyond the context which it resides. The check happens when you cast the spell, therefore the explanation of the effect must be held in that context. If we did what you are doing to other areas of the game we get martial monk and early spell entry cheese. The context gets ignored and the limitations that exist aren't applied.

[Gruftzwerg]

Except that you never actually cast the sanctum spell, you only get the EFFECT of the sanctum spell (including its bonus/penalty spell level) AFTER casting arcane spellsurge, so the spell level isnt adjusted until after arcane spellsurge is cast.

Have a look. Arcane Fusion effectively "casts" those spells:

Both spells take effect in the order you choose, as if you had cast them one after the other using only one standard action, but you don't expend any additional spell slots to cast those spells. Effectively, you cast two other spells using this spell's 5th-level spell slot. Each of the chosen spells has its normal effect, including range, target, area, duration, saving throw, and spell resistance as appropriate to the spell's level.

It doesn't matter that you don't "really cast em by yourself". They are still "treated as if you had cast em by yourself".

I never said it was impossible to overcome, merely that it was a hurdle that you needed to be mindful of, I even literally state “unless you have some form of rapid metamagic”. Solve the problem how you like, but it IS a problem that you need to invest resources into solving, you cant just do it out the box.

Sorry if I got it the wrong way. But let me assure you that the TO builds of mine who use this trick either have Arcane Spellsurge or Rapid Metamagic. I'm aware of the hurdles to overcome here..
Cheese always has its price..^^

It's not irrelevant. The sentence you keep using as your evidence only ever has relevance after the spell has been cast as the feat itself states. The spell level of the spell isn't modified until after the spell is cast, not in preparation of the cast.

Dunno where you see anything in the rule text that would imply that. Could I kindly ask for a quote and a lil explanation to what you are referring to here? Where do you see it implied that it only has relevance after the cast?

Otherwise you could get arcane preparation and prepare the sanctum spell when outside of your sanctum in a spell slot one lower because that would be the "normal" spell slot of a spell of that level. It simply does not work that way, nor does it say it does.

Yeah it simple doesn't work as you describe it. ;)

When you have Arcane Preparation and prepare a Sanctum Spell outside of your sanctum, it still uses its normal spell slot!
Sanctum Spell never changes your spell slot.

A sanctum spell uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level.

It uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level.
Pls stop mixing "Spell Level" with "Spell Slot Level".
Sanctum Spell is always prepared in a slot at the spell's normal level (except for other metamagic you use). It doesn't matter if you get an increase or decrease for the spell level.
The horror scenario you are trying to picture here ain't possible. Rest assured.

[Darg]

Have a look. Arcane Fusion effectively "casts" those spells:

It doesn't matter that you don't "really cast em by yourself". They are still "treated as if you had cast em by yourself".

You just quoted the relevant text, just emphasized the wrong part:

Both spells take effect in the order you choose

They take effect when the spell effect is manifest. The spell is casting them sure, but you are missing the point:

Dunno where you see anything in the rule text that would imply that. Could I kindly ask for a quote and a lil explanation to what you are referring to here? Where do you see it implied that it only has relevance after the cast?

A sanctum spell has an effective spell level 1 higher than its normal level if cast in your sanctum (see below), but if not cast in the sanctum, the spell has an effective spell level 1 lower than normal.

Sanctum Spell's effect only applies when the spell comes into effect. Until the effect is manifest it does not have a +/-1 to effective spell level. When you select the spell for use with arcane fusion, it is still a spell of it's normal level.

Pls stop mixing "Spell Level" with "Spell Slot Level".

I'm not. They are one and the same when it comes to metamagic. Please reread the text in the PHB and SRD

During preparation, the character chooses which spells to prepare with metamagic feats (and thus which ones take up higher-level spell slots than normal).

They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them. As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher-level spell slot.

Changes to its level are cumulative. A silent, stilled version of charm person, for example, would be prepared and cast as a 3rd-level spell (a 1st-level spell, increased by one spell level for each of the metamagic feats).

Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell’s higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat).

The PHB uses the terms as though synonymous. You may differentiate them, but the rules clearly do not.

[Troacctid]

Nevertheless, given that the text explicitly discusses application of metamagic within AF, I wouldn't be so harsh as to disallow it myself.

That's a little much. Arcane fusion is a sorc only spell and the errata specifically states you can use metamagic with it.

Okay, you got me there, I didn't notice the errata. Carry on, then.

[InvisibleBison]

Arcane Fusion is very clear about how it works: First you select a 4th level spell and a 1st level spell, and then they take effect as if cast. Sanctum spell arcane fusion is only treated as a 4th level spell when it is being cast outside your sanctum. Since you are not casting it when you attempt to select it as a 4th level spell, it is not treated as a 4th level spell and thus is not eligible to be selected.

[Gruftzwerg]

You just quoted the relevant text, just emphasized the wrong part:



They take effect when the spell effect is manifest. The spell is casting them sure, but you are missing the point:





Sanctum Spell's effect only applies when the spell comes into effect. Until the effect is manifest it does not have a +/-1 to effective spell level. When you select the spell for use with arcane fusion, it is still a spell of it's normal level.

I get what you mean, but you are missing "Specific Trumps General" here.
Arcane Fusion explicitly asks for that and you can't ignore it:

"If applying a metamagic feat to a spell, use the adjusted spell level and casting time for purposes of determining eligibility for arcane fusion."

The rules don't ask you when the spell level is adjusted.
They simply ask you to use the adjusted spell level.

Imho it couldn't be more obvious precise here. Use the adjusted spell level.

If your assumption would be true, I wouldn't need rapid metamagic, because the effective casting time wouldn't change either for the same reason. Sorry, that is a assumption directly in conflict with the errata.

I'm not. They are one and the same when it comes to metamagic. Please reread the text in the PHB and SRD

The PHB uses the terms as though synonymous. You may differentiate them, but the rules clearly do not.

I kinda agree that you sometimes have to read it in context if you want to get the intentions of the authors right and have a playable rule set.

But that is the entire problem I am ranting here about^^

Just because the authors have once again failed to express the intentions precise enough doesn't change what is RAW. RAW doesn't care for intentions. If the failed and you need to apply extended context ("the authors are just humans too" thus they make mistakes too), we have stopped to talking about RAW and started to talk about RAI.

RAI, I totally agree with you. No problem. But RAW does simply not care for such stuff.
I mean, how else do you think people ended with things like "healing by drowning"?
Not because they tried to get the intentions of the authors and by applying extended context.
We got "healing by drowning" by totally ignoring the "intentions" and simply applying what RAW says.
And RAW says some times very stupid things...

Arcane Fusion is very clear about how it works: First you select a 4th level spell and a 1st level spell, and then they take effect as if cast. Sanctum spell arcane fusion is only treated as a 4th level spell when it is being cast outside your sanctum. Since you are not casting it when you attempt to select it as a 4th level spell, it is not treated as a 4th level spell and thus is not eligible to be selected.

Pls reread Arcane Fusion more carefully:
"as if you had cast them"
&
"Effectively, you cast two other spells"

It doesn't matter that you don't cast it yourself, if they still count as if you had cast em yourself.

And Arcane Fusion explicitly asks for "adjusted spell level".

Your assumption ain't true by RAW here, sorry.

[InvisibleBison]

Pls reread Arcane Fusion more carefully:
"as if you had cast them"
&
"Effectively, you cast two other spells"

It doesn't matter that you don't cast it yourself, if they still count as if you had cast em yourself.

And Arcane Fusion explicitly asks for "adjusted spell level".

Your assumption ain't true by RAW here, sorry.

I'm not talking about whether or not it counts as if you cast the spells yourself, or whether or not arcane fusion is using "adjusted spell level". I can freely concede those points and my argument still holds. Because arcane fusion checks the spell level before casting the spell, and sanctum spell arcane fusion is only a 4th level spell when it's being cast, at the time that arcane fusion checks whether a spell is 4th level or not sanctum spell arcane fusion is a 5th level spell. The issue is purely one of timing.

[Darg]

If your assumption would be true, I wouldn't need rapid metamagic, because the effective casting time wouldn't change either for the same reason. Sorry, that is a assumption directly in conflict with the errata.

There are two problems here about your assumption. You need rapid metamagic because it is in effect when you select the spell as it directly modifies the cast time. Sanctum spell's benefit is not in effect at the time you select the spell because the effect is yet to be cast.

Just because the authors have once again failed to express the intentions precise enough doesn't change what is RAW. RAW doesn't care for intentions. If the failed and you need to apply extended context ("the authors are just humans too" thus they make mistakes too), we have stopped to talking about RAW and started to talk about RAI.

You're taking the explanatory text and applying it where it simply doesn't make logical sense. The sentence you use to justify your claim does not specify when the effect takes place. The prior sentence is the one that does that and makes clear that the benefit doesn't come into effect until the effect is manifest. That is the RAW. You aren't supporting your claim with anything actually substantive.

When you have Arcane Preparation and prepare a Sanctum Spell outside of your sanctum, it still uses its normal spell slot!
Sanctum Spell never changes your spell slot.

To bring a point from your previous post here, spell slots are derived from spell level. It's not a separate quality. You say that it would still use a normal spell slot. If what you claim is true, your claim cannot be selective in application as it would apply to all effects, even itself. Therefore your claim logically ends at the point of sanctum spell is a spell of one level lower and thus has a normal spell slot that of one level lower.

We all know that is a leap of logic. Even you think so. However, where is the leap? The leap is when the benefit of the feat is applied. If the benefit is applied prior to the effect made manifest the scenario above is RAW. If the benefit is applied when the effect is manifest the scenario above is not RAW. These understandings are mutually exclusive.