New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 117
  1. - Top - End - #31
    Titan in the Playground
     
    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What do you perceive is harder? Being a Player or a GM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    That makes it even more frustrating if my turn in combat comes up and whatever thing I wanted to do doesn't have any effect -- great, time to wait for the spellcasters to shuffle through their cards yet again, call me in 30 minutes.
    Not all tables are that slow. Talk to your fellow players about that: they need to be ready to act on their turn, not all of a sudden realize that they are in the spotlight.
    even if you're actively listening or helping throw focus to another player, you will inevitably feel disconnected from the session at some point or another.)
    Maybe you will, but not everyone shares that experience. Paying attention to the other players is a part of the group activity.

    It's also courteous.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
    Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    Wyoming
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What do you perceive is harder? Being a Player or a GM?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Not all tables are that slow. Talk to your fellow players about that: they need to be ready to act on their turn, not all of a sudden realize that they are in the spotlight. Maybe you will, but not everyone shares that experience. Paying attention to the other players is a part of the group activity.

    It's also courteous.
    I'm not going to say "everyone" has this experience, but it has been fairly common IME, especially at tables where DMs offload the burden of being a DM on helpful players. Helping other players is, well, helpful. But it can also be distracting to the game when those players interrupt your train of thought or require a lot of handholding through their turn. Paying attention is a two-way street. Inattentive (for whatever reason) players create more demand on other people to pay attention to them and often require additional handholding. IMO everyone has a limited amount of attention. Asking players to divide up what little they have for someone who can't/won't/lacks attention to actually play is not courteous or fair.

    And I won't say every table is "slow", but it's common for a table to have 1-2 slow players IME, who consume dramatically larger portions of time for their turn(say, 10 minutes vs 2 minutes), requiring the repeat of information, to sift through their spells and special abilities, to require rules clarifications (often repeating the same question on many turns).

    But......I'll also say that I find these things are more common in systems which prioritize mechanical resolution (ie: rolling the dice) over role-play resolution. Getting players to look at the group and say what they're doing (even if they don't know how to do it) IME has a dramatic effect on speeding up play time. The table can help if you don't know how to do that, but a lot of folks in more roll-heavy games go silent and look away from the group, into a notepad, rulebook or set of spell cards. We can't help you if we don't know what you want to do.
    Last edited by False God; 2023-06-07 at 01:02 PM.
    Knowledge brings the sting of disillusionment, but the pain teaches perspective.
    "You know it's all fake right?"
    "...yeah, but it makes me feel better."

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What do you perceive is harder? Being a Player or a GM?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Maybe you will, but not everyone shares that experience. Paying attention to the other players is a part of the group activity.

    It's also courteous.
    Not sure why you're saying this like it's some kind of "gotcha". I'm well aware that it's the courteous thing to do, which is why I always do it.

    That doesn't change the fact that most sessions as a player, I'll have to actively work to keep that engagement up at some point. That feeling never happens when I'm DMing because all the different responsibilities keep my brain firing the whole time. In this way, DMing is more exhausting but also more rewarding and I always feel invested in whatever stories the players are telling - because I have to facilitate them.

    Your options as a player to actively listen, support your teammates, and throw focus are different and more personal, but they're limited in scope compared to all the ways the DM can support that player's storytelling.

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2022

    Default Re: What do you perceive is harder? Being a Player or a GM?

    Yeah. I think there might also be a tangential aspect here in terms of which is "more enjoyable/rewarding".

    There's also the whole "difficult" != "harder", as well. At least in terms of actually knowing what's going to happen, I suppose. A couple people observed (correctly), that the GM has more information, knows what the NPCs are doing, never has to argue with him/herself, etc. So the GM makes a decision and that's what happens. A player make a decision and then has to convince the other yahoos at the table that it's a good idea. Or you get 5 players all doing their own thing, which is also "difficult".

    Maybe better to clarify whether we're talking about "harder" in terms of "more work"? On that scale GMing is absolutely "harder". But yeah, if we're talking about some other aspects of play, sometimes being a player can include things that aren't exactly "easy" as well.

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Titan in the Playground
     
    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What do you perceive is harder? Being a Player or a GM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    Not sure why you're saying this like it's some kind of "gotcha". I'm well aware that it's the courteous thing to do, which is why I always do it.
    I still play with a few people who don't start thinking about what to do on their turn until their turn arrives. I think that's bad form, at best, and rude at worst.
    To me, it is courteous to the other players to be engaged fully in the scene, and to be thinking about how the actions and choices of the other players (and the NPCs/monsters/DM environment) - as a continuum - inform or change the decision one makes when one's turn arrives.
    I quit one game, as a player, when I got utterly fed up with the other players' inability to make a decision.
    Also, as a DM, I have said to a player "make a decision, or dodge" when they won't keep the pace of play moving.
    I'll have to actively work to keep that engagement up at some point. That feeling never happens when I'm DMing because all the different responsibilities keep my brain firing the whole time. In this way, DMing is more exhausting but also more rewarding and I always feel invested in whatever stories the players are telling - because I have to facilitate them.
    I understand what you are saying.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2023-06-07 at 04:25 PM.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
    Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2020

    Default Re: What do you perceive is harder? Being a Player or a GM?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    The content itself is decent, but how it is presented is, due to being in book form and overly verbose in a lot of ways, for a lot of DM's an annoyance. Kurt Kurageous has some very pointed, and IMO spot on, observations on how WotC in particular needs to improve the presentation and organization of an adventure.
    Where can I find Kurt's reviews?

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Titan in the Playground
     
    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What do you perceive is harder? Being a Player or a GM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vahnavoi View Post
    Where can I find Kurt's reviews?
    I will ask him which of his posts are the best references. We have talked about this over Discord as well, he and I, but my first encounter with his suggestions was on this forum.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
    Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society

  8. - Top - End - #38
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Slartibartfast's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    The Shadows. All of them.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What do you perceive is harder? Being a Player or a GM?

    Personally, I think this question is a bit overstated. I would say it is typically harder to be a player than a GM, but also this is somewhat of a false dichotomy.

    One of the things to keep in mind is that there are a TON of different roleplaying styles and campaign designs, and these often have so little to do with each other it doesn't make sense to talk about them at the same time despite it all being "roleplaying". A kick-in-the-door dungeon crawl hack-and-slash is a radically different experience to play and run than a political intrigue game. In the former, the GM is placing room geometry and monsters, in the latter they are dealing with motivations, methods, and emotions. These are just unrelated games.

    It is often believed that the biggest difference between GM and player is action vs reaction. This is, however, incorrect. It is very tempting to look at a hack-and-slash game and say that the GM is acting by making the challenges and the players are reacting to those challenges. But what about a GM who analyses the PC's performance in each encounter, and designs or alters the next encounter in response to the solutions they used previously? For example, if the players trap the goblins with firewalls, maybe later goblins sent to face them brought fire wards, or maybe the goblins will attempt to use the PC's own flame tactics against them. In this context, the players are acting and the GM is reacting. In the political campaign, it's much messier. For verisimilitude, the NPCs had better have plans going on behind the scenes, but also the spotlight needs to be on the party and their interactions with this web of lies. Who is the actor and who is the reactor? It's both. It's always both.

    Another big difference between multiple GM/player types is how much is predetermined. Does the GM know what is on the other side of that hill, or do they just have a vague sense of the region and will make up whatever you encounter? Did they make a puzzle with a solution, or did they just narrate problems and assume the players will come up with something? On the player side, does Steve know his paladin's development arc, does he have a plan for his foibles causing conflict and sparking growth, or is he just moving a pile of stats around on the table? These are very different styles which each involve different skillsets, and how hard or easy it will be is much more dependent on how skilled the person is at playing their role than what role they are playing.

    In general though, the GM and the player are the same. Everyone has to consider the other people at the table, the narrative that has been created, and what the path forward should be. The most immersed players often have the hardest choice: what do I do now? I need a new plan! The most calculating GMs often have the hardest playing board, trying to keep consistency between the historical actions of various offscreen entities, and constantly rewriting those to be what the story and game pacing needs them to have been, while staying within the bounds of what has been revealed on-screen. The GM is just a player with a much more abstract character, and the player is just a GM with much more indirect influence. Typically, it is the players who determine the course of a game, and the GM merely plays as its foil. But there is an ebb and flow in all things, and the balance of power shifts back and forth.

    It's about what you're good at and how you choose to run/play.
    "Actually I don't know how to write a post, I just write essays and put them on forums"
    Spoiler
    Show

    "We have a visual on the ninja, he appears to be... coding? *gurk*"
    Ninja 7/Rogue 7/Bard 1
    All above pictures are Ceikatars!

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    JNAProductions's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Avatar By Astral Seal!

    Default Re: What do you perceive is harder? Being a Player or a GM?

    GMing is generally harder than being a player, if only on the numbers. A player controls one character (for most systems) while a DM controls all the NPCs. Even if any one NPC is simpler than a PC, there is usually a LOT of them.

    But to me, what really makes games harder is not gelling with the players. I'm a DM of a Discord D&D 5E game, and it just flows pretty well. Occasionally I need to kick the party in the tuckus to keep the game moving, but generally there's good back and forth, in roleplay, in combat, in all the gaming parts.

    I find it much, much easier to be a GM in a group that I work well with than a player in a group that's not as good a fit for me.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

    Spoiler: Former Avatars
    Show
    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Linkele
    Show

    Spoiler: Individual Avatar Pics
    Show

  10. - Top - End - #40
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2022
    Location
    GitP, obviously
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What do you perceive is harder? Being a Player or a GM?

    I'll go against the grain and say player, but I'll provide specific circumstance. Being a player at a table with a much less experienced GM can be difficult. I've found myself in this position and several rulings being outright wrong, some of the other players taking advantage of the GM's ignorance on certain details. In those moments, I try to help others understand how some things work if they ask (very important). The GM may not necessarily be struggling, but it can be a challenge to enjoy the game as a player at table where everyone else is much less experienced, especially the GM. (Note, a fair amount of this perspective comes from two different GMs "in training", each about 1/3 my age.)

    Generally speaking, a lot more effort and focus is required to GM. Unless, of course, you improvise everything (and your players are ok with that/don't notice).
    Something Borrowed - Submission Thread (5e subclass contest)

    TeamWork Makes the Dream Work 5e Base Class Submission Thread




  11. - Top - End - #41
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2022

    Default Re: What do you perceive is harder? Being a Player or a GM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slartibartfast View Post
    One of the things to keep in mind is that there are a TON of different roleplaying styles and campaign designs, and these often have so little to do with each other it doesn't make sense to talk about them at the same time despite it all being "roleplaying". A kick-in-the-door dungeon crawl hack-and-slash is a radically different experience to play and run than a political intrigue game. In the former, the GM is placing room geometry and monsters, in the latter they are dealing with motivations, methods, and emotions. These are just unrelated games.
    Sure. But in both cases, the GM has to play all of the NPCs, while the players just have to play the one character in front of them. From a workload perspective, the GM has a lot more to do. And intrigue games? Super hard from the GM perspective. Sure, there's a bit of a dichotomy because you could say that the GM already "knows the plots/intrigue", and the players have to figure stuff out. But the GM has to keep all of that stuff straight, know exactly which NPCs knows what, what each NPCs motivations and goals are, and then keep track of every conversation between every PC and NPC so as to maintain the "who knows what" dynamic. It's one of the hardest things to do in a game environment. One mistake, or slipped bit of dialogue by the GM can absolutely ruin such games.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slartibartfast View Post
    Another big difference between multiple GM/player types is how much is predetermined. Does the GM know what is on the other side of that hill, or do they just have a vague sense of the region and will make up whatever you encounter? Did they make a puzzle with a solution, or did they just narrate problems and assume the players will come up with something? On the player side, does Steve know his paladin's development arc, does he have a plan for his foibles causing conflict and sparking growth, or is he just moving a pile of stats around on the table? These are very different styles which each involve different skillsets, and how hard or easy it will be is much more dependent on how skilled the person is at playing their role than what role they are playing.
    I think that a huge aspect of this is responsibility though. The GM is responsible for creating and running a game that is fun for everyone at the table. The player is only really responsible for their own character and actions (and sure, not "ruining fun" for the table). I guess I'll also point out that player expecations scale with player skill. That means that playing a character is only as "hard" as you make it yourself. You can choose to just move stats around on the sheet, if that's what you want (or have the skill go do). And you can certainly be far more proactive as a player, developing and playing out complelx character traits and arcs. But that's up to the player to choose to do, it's only as "hard" as the player chooses to make it.

    On the flip side, player expections of GMs is much much higher than GM expecations of players. Sure, I love it when players do more with their characters, but I've never kicked a player out of a game because they just showed up and made mechanical decisions for their character based on skills/abilities/spells/items on their sheet in response to the situation in front of them. The only things that gets a player booted/dropped is the same thing that will cause players to flee a GMs table (offensive/disruptive play). But players will absolutely leave a game if the GM just phones it in though. No one really wants to play a game run by a GM who just asks the players "Ok. Which direction do you go?" and then rolls random charts for encounters, runs them, hands out treasure, and then repeats over and over.

    So yeah. There's a much greater expectation placed on the GM than on the players IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slartibartfast View Post
    The GM is just a player with a much more abstract character, and the player is just a GM with much more indirect influence. Typically, it is the players who determine the course of a game, and the GM merely plays as its foil. But there is an ebb and flow in all things, and the balance of power shifts back and forth.
    Yes. A good RPG is more or less cooperative storytelling, and players ideally should be very much involved in their part of the story. But each player is still only telling one small part of that story. The GM still has a much larger responsibility for the whole. The GM creates the setting, and the story, and writes the outline. The players just fill in the details. And yes, really good players may also help inspire the GM when drawing the outline as well (storyarc and plot ideas/requests). But a good GM can still produce a great story in the absence of large amounts of player input and contribution. The opposite just doesn't work nearly as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slartibartfast View Post
    It's about what you're good at and how you choose to run/play.
    Yeah. Again though, I come back to player skill/effort being "nice to have", while GM skill/effort is "required" (for a good result anyway). And yeah, a couple people have commented on players steping up and filling in the gaps. But that's not really about the player "role" being harder, but that the player is taking on some of the GM role for a less experienced or skilled GM who may be overwhelmed a bit by the game. That's still about the GM's "job" being harder.

    I suppose this depends on how strictly we're dividing up the roles and duties here. And yes, some tables will have more of what I consider the "GM role" being handled by the players. But if we divide this up based on "content creation" versus "content consumption", the former is much more work than the latter IMO.


    I suppose we could also tangent off to another question though: Which is more "fun/rewarding"? That's a waaaay tricker one IMO.

  12. - Top - End - #42
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Daemon

    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Corvallis, OR
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What do you perceive is harder? Being a Player or a GM?

    One other thing is the consequences of failure.

    Consider a "holy trinity" MMO (ie healer/tank/dps). If a DPS is "bad", things still mostly continue, at least until you hit a (relatively rare) DPS check. But if the healer is bad or the tank sucks...everyone dies. So being a DPS is more forgiving and "easier" than being a healer or tank (usually, although there are exceptions).

    Similarly, if the GM is crap or falls apart or is phoning it in, the game usually disintegrates or at least is very not fun for everyone. And replacing a GM usually (but not always) means starting a whole new game. A player who isn't firing on all cylinders or is phoning it in or is just there for the social part can often be left to drag in the water a bit or (worst case) replaced without doing more than marginally decreasing the fun of the table.

    So the baseline stress/expectations for the GM are higher.

    This is, of course, not a guarantee. Games and situations differ. YMMV.

    And @gabj, as to your tangent question about "fun/rewarding"--for me being a DM 100%. A good game as DM supercharges me. It inspires me to worldbuild and gets me going like just about nothing else. A good game as a player is like, well, that was nice.

    So when things are working well, being a DM is amazing. Bigger highs...lower lows.
    Last edited by PhoenixPhyre; 2023-06-09 at 05:59 PM.
    Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
    Rogue Equivalent Damage calculator, now prettier and more configurable!
    5e Monster Data Sheet--vital statistics for all 693 MM, Volo's, and now MToF monsters: Updated!
    NIH system 5e fork, very much WIP. Base github repo.
    NIH System PDF Up to date main-branch build version.

  13. - Top - End - #43
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    Wyoming
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What do you perceive is harder? Being a Player or a GM?

    I'll jump in on the "times its hard to be a player".

    When you're expected to be the scribe. When the other players are unable or unwilling to take notes, remember names, or recall what we're on this quest for. When you're expected to keep track of what everyone was doing, when they last failed their lycanthropy save, when they failed their last black plague check, when they last took a dump. For usually no other reason than you like taking notes. You like knowing what's going on. For no other reason than those other people can't be bothered.

    And then you tell the party, "I'm taking notes in character guys." and you conveniently leave out something really important to them and instead use your knowledge to direct them to the quests and objects of power that benefit you the most. Oh then they remember you're LE and suddenly they're mad at you for taking advantage of them!

    I don't begrudge the DM for not reminding them, its everyone's job to remember what's going on, it's not the DMs job to spoon-feed the group. But when you're a member of a lazy group, it can be really stressful. Maybe not "more than GM" stressful, but pretty freaking stressful.
    Last edited by False God; 2023-06-09 at 06:00 PM.
    Knowledge brings the sting of disillusionment, but the pain teaches perspective.
    "You know it's all fake right?"
    "...yeah, but it makes me feel better."

  14. - Top - End - #44
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2022
    Location
    GitP, obviously
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What do you perceive is harder? Being a Player or a GM?

    Quote Originally Posted by gbaji View Post
    I suppose we could also tangent off to another question though: Which is more "fun/rewarding"? That's a waaaay tricker one IMO.
    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    So when things are working well, being a DM is amazing. Bigger highs...lower lows.
    I definitely have to agree and I much prefer this tangent, personally.

    Being a player is generally more fun for me because I have more time to really invest in my character's motivation and immerse myself in the game. (Exception is the times when I GM with little-no preparation and improvise most of the session. Now, those are some memorable game nights!)

    Though as a GM, the game is much more rewarding more consistently for me. Watching my players interact with the situations I place before them is a bit like watching my children cooperate to accomplish tasks. It's not always successful, but it's extremely enlightening to observe the potential.
    Something Borrowed - Submission Thread (5e subclass contest)

    TeamWork Makes the Dream Work 5e Base Class Submission Thread




  15. - Top - End - #45
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2013

    Default Re: What do you perceive is harder? Being a Player or a GM?

    GM is way harder, I'm not sure how that's even arguable. I prefer GM-ing BTW but I sure as hell enjoy taking "time off" to be a player instead of having to run the whole show. Feels like a holiday.
    Re: 100 Things to Beware of that Every DM Should Know

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    93. No matter what the character sheet say, there are only 3 PC alignments: Lawful Snotty, Neutral Greedy, and Chaotic Backstabbing.

  16. - Top - End - #46
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Telok's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    61.2° N, 149.9° W
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What do you perceive is harder? Being a Player or a GM?

    Quote Originally Posted by False God View Post
    And then you tell the party, "I'm taking notes in character guys." and you conveniently leave out something really important to them and instead use your knowledge to direct them to the quests and objects of power that benefit you the most. Oh then they remember you're LE and suddenly they're mad at you for taking advantage of them!
    Not my fault they forgot my character's alignment and made the CN dwarf the party treasurer & loot bag. I even kept an accurate accounting of the gold that they looked at once. It was all ratios to the amount the dwarf had, which wasn't written down because he always knew how much he had. They couldn't figure it out and decided anything that complicated had to be honest. And I did always pay back the loans from the party pool in the end, I just had better gear a bit earlier.

  17. - Top - End - #47
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Fiery Diamond's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    The Imagination
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What do you perceive is harder? Being a Player or a GM?

    Personally, I feel that if you find yourself thinking about the difficulty of being a player as a player or the difficulty of being a GM as a GM, you need to take a deep breath, take a step back, and consider if you really should be continuing to participate in that game. The question of whether an activity you do for fun is more or less hard really shouldn't be crossing your mind if things are going well, unless you're using "hard" to refer to "engaging challenge." I don't see that talking about how hard it is to be a player or GM really has constructive value. Now, talking about the "amount of work" or "amount of effort" or "amount of preparation," none of which are synonymous with "hardness," can be very constructive conversations, especially when some people in the conversation have never experienced one of the two sides firsthand.

    In short, asking which is harder is kind of an odd question to me, since it isn't really something that should (if things are going well) even cross anyone's mind. And if things aren't going well... maybe address those individual problems rather than generalizing? And if you're just talking about in the abstract rather than basing it in real experiences, that's even weirder to me, since games aren't played in the abstract, and it's not like the conversation is engaging with some sort of game, like Theoretical Optimization conversations do (which I also find weird, but that's because I don't enjoy engaging in games in that particular way, so that's entirely on me).

  18. - Top - End - #48
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Toledo, Ohio
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What do you perceive is harder? Being a Player or a GM?

    I personally find GMing to be easier, not least because I have a lot more experience but also because I feel like being a player doesn't give me enough to do without stealing the show. Sticking with a combat example because it is easier, there's two good scenarios from my relatively recent play history.

    As GM, the party (with NPC allies) is fighting a group of elite undead warriors bound to protect the entrance to an ancient dwarven crypt. These are semi-intelligent undead.

    So during this fight, I'm focusing on managing the undead trying to split the group from each other to be slaughtered in detail, managing direct PM communications with 3 players (the low player count is why there's NPC allies), judging the morale of said NPCs, all while adjucating combat results and providing descriptive text. Plenty to occupy my time.


    As player (GURPS game, with a character that dumped almost everything for ludicrous Strength)

    I grapple the nearest bandit and rip his head off. Wait for the rest of the party.
    I use the head as a throwing weapon to take down another bandit, then jump on the armored car they're using for fire support. Wait for the rest of the party.
    Start trying to punch my way into the armored car. Wait for the rest of the party.
    Start to succeed in punching my way into the armored car. Wait for the rest of the party.
    Surviving enemies are intimidated and surrender.

    The roleplaying is fun, but there's just not enough to hold my attention when I'm used to doing so much more.

    Out of combat is even worse, because my practiced inclination is to manage everything, so it takes serious effort to hold back and not just dominate the game as a a player.

  19. - Top - End - #49
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Imbalance's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2018

    redface Re: What do you perceive is harder? Being a Player or a GM?

    Ugh, how do I put this? Look, I get the concensus, but I'm not going to read everybody's multi-paragraph replies, and don't want to leave my own. In short, I feel like my connotation of "harder" doesn't quite fit the context of the question. To clarify, DM'ing is far more laborious, no doubt. But getting to play, for me, has been the utmost challenge, topped by the fact that the one game I'm actively a player in has been designed to be particularly difficult, ie. "hard mode" from the start, to the point that it feels like more work to get to the end of a session than DM prep does. So, my answer will be one of those outliers where I say that playing is harder than DM'ing.
    “Rule is what lies between what is said and what is understood.”
    ~Raja Rudatha, the Spider Prince
    Golem Arcana

  20. - Top - End - #50
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    May 2012

    Default Re: What do you perceive is harder? Being a Player or a GM?

    Personally I find it much harder to be a player than to be a GM.

    I've always found GMing to be pretty easy. You have a whole cast of characters and world to play with and if something goes wrong with that it very easy to hide it/change it for next time. Messing up as a GM(in game) rarely has permanent consequences and if you are willing to be honest you can even just walk stuff back.

    As a player you don't really have that freedom. Everything you do comes filtered through the lens of this one character and you don't really have the ability to easily change that. If I introduce a bad character as a gm, they can just never show up again. If I misroleplay my PC, that sticks.

    That being said by far the hardest part of any game is out of game table management, but I reject the assumption that that falls under the GMs purview.
    When you are first born, the universe assigns you a secret luck value. The quality of your life, dice rolls, and how friendly your DM is are all influenced by the luck value. It is the universe's secret social experiment. So if you been rolling poor, it is only because you were assigned low luck value by the universe. You can raise your luck value only through proper dice rolling rituals.


  21. - Top - End - #51
    Titan in the Playground
     
    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What do you perceive is harder? Being a Player or a GM?

    Quote Originally Posted by False God View Post
    I'll jump in on the "times its hard to be a player".

    {snip points I can empathize with}
    but pretty freaking stressful.
    Annoying is the term I'd use. I've been the scribe for a lot of the games we have had since 2014 and I have lately gone minimalist. The others simply are not contributing with a few exceptions, and I burned out on being the scribe.
    Which is too bad, since our Curse of Strahd group is a pretty good bunch.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2023-06-12 at 02:38 PM.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
    Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society

  22. - Top - End - #52
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    GnomePirate

    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    United States
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What do you perceive is harder? Being a Player or a GM?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Annoying is the term I'd use. I've been the scribe for a lot of the games we have had since 2014 and I have lately gone minimalist. The others simply are not contributing with a few exceptions, and I burned out on being the scribe.
    Which is too bad, since our Curse of Strahd group is a prett good bunch.
    About a year ago, I was playing in a "West Marches" style campaign on Roll20. All the in-between adventure stuff was handled on a Dischord server. I think there were 3 DMs and about 20 players at any given point.

    One clever thing they did was add an "Adventure Journal" text channel to the Dischord server. If you posted an in-character journal entry, one of the DMs might give you a small amount of xp. You could also get a little xp if you kept a map. Mind you, this was a very small amount of xp, never enough to level your character. But it made everyone write journal entries and put some effort into it.

  23. - Top - End - #53
    Titan in the Playground
     
    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What do you perceive is harder? Being a Player or a GM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trafalgar View Post
    About a year ago, I was playing in a "West Marches" style campaign on Roll20. All the in-between adventure stuff was handled on a Dischord server. I think there were 3 DMs and about 20 players at any given point.

    One clever thing they did was add an "Adventure Journal" text channel to the Dischord server. If you posted an in-character journal entry, one of the DMs might give you a small amount of xp. You could also get a little xp if you kept a map. Mind you, this was a very small amount of xp, never enough to level your character. But it made everyone write journal entries and put some effort into it.
    I tip my cap. In the game we have with PhoenixPhyre, there is a campaign notes channel in our Dischord that the players (mostly our group scribe, who isn't me even though I occasionally contribute) can put notes so that we all keep up with the story/plot points, what we did nine sessions ago.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2023-06-12 at 02:38 PM.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
    Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society

  24. - Top - End - #54
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    Wyoming
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What do you perceive is harder? Being a Player or a GM?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Annoying is the term I'd use. I've been the scribe for a lot of the games we have had since 2014 and I have lately gone minimalist. The others simply are not contributing with a few exceptions, and I burned out on being the scribe.
    Which is too bad, since our Curse of Strahd group is a pretty good bunch.
    To reference the other thread about WBL and "other people being annoying"...

    I often find being a GM easier because I'm in control. If something drags out too long or wastes table time, I can declare that it is over and we can move on. If a player engages too long with a merchant, if combat drags out, if a skill challenge becomes increasingly troublesome without meaningful resolution then I, as GM, can alter course and end the conversation, wrap up combat, alter course on the skill challenge or if the problems are too great to be resolved in game (perhaps player drama), I can end the session.

    As a player, I can do none of these things. If a player engages too long with a merchant and the GM is into it, as you say "time to floss the cat", if combat drags on there is no choice but to endure it, if a skill challenge becomes a brick wall the time is simply wasted, if there is player drama and the DM won't intervene, all I can do is leave the game.

    The discrepancy in power dynamic is one reason I have moved away from "strong DM" games to ones where the game is more collectively run and the players have some level of power over the scene and the general goings on, with the DMs job being more to "sort things out" rather than to command the entire world.

    It can be easy to be a GM because I have all the power. Sure it's more work, but I also have all the power.
    It can be hard to be a player because I have no power. Maybe it's less up-front work, but I also have no leverage. And it can be difficult to find a table with a DM skilled enough to empower their players, rather than indulge them.
    Knowledge brings the sting of disillusionment, but the pain teaches perspective.
    "You know it's all fake right?"
    "...yeah, but it makes me feel better."

  25. - Top - End - #55
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Re: What do you perceive is harder? Being a Player or a GM?

    On the topic of notes, I make it clear to the group before we start that they are welcome to ask for a reminder on people and places. Everyone has enough real stuff filling their brains and someone not remembering the name of The Silverglade Count's niece shouldn't be held against them. Just ask "Who was the person who wanted the thing?" and I'll tell you because I assume your character would have that filling their skull instead of kid's doctor appointments and needing to compile time sheets.

    If someone wants to take notes (and some people do) then they're welcome to and I appreciate the hustle. But no one should feel obligated to; college was over years ago. Just my opinion on making life easier for the players (and come across too many GMs who view it as a gotcha if you stumble over a name from five weeks ago during an NPC interaction)

  26. - Top - End - #56
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What do you perceive is harder? Being a Player or a GM?

    First comment: we don't all DM the same way, and we don't all play the same way. So take anything I say with a grain of salt.

    For instance, I usually have 4-8 pages of character development written by the time we sit down to play. Many people have no interest in that, but it's part of how I decide who my PC is, and what I hope he or she will grow into.

    Similarly, I have never used a pre-printed campaign. So whatever effect they have, I've never dealt with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by False God View Post
    For the sake of argument....

    I mostly wonder about how much easier "book DMing" is, that is running a pre-printed adventure module or campaign and really sticking to the script. It's just something I don't do because I don't enjoy it, but I wonder if that makes DMing "easier" or at least "easy as" being a player.
    In my experience, a pre-printed module is almost as much work, since I have to make it fit my world -- the culture, politics, races, etc. I've never run a pre-printed campaign, but I expect that it would be *more* work, since I would have to learn somebody else's entire world. That might not be true for other DMs, but I would prefer to run a world I that created, and that works as I think it should.

    ---

    Also, it's worth pointing out that DMing and playing are differently hard. At the table, its about the same level of difficulty. As player or DM, I'm am fully engaged from start to finish, trying to track everything and keep full notes. But what I'm trying to do is different. As a player, I know what my PC has done; I'm trying to learn what the situation is, and decide how to react to it tactically.

    As a DM, I know the situation; I'm trying to keep track of what effect the PCs' actions have had, and to rule fairly and competently, while simultaneously deciding how the NPCs react to it.

    Both of these are full-time activities, and in both cases, I'm always just barely keeping up.

    The biggest differences are away from the table.

    When I'm playing (for instance) a gnome illusionist, I spend far more time researching everything he can do, or can grow into, in any situation that might come up in the next few levels. So I've drilled down far deeper on my PC's possibilities than I do as a DM. But as a DM, I need to understand what each of my players' PCs can do right now. Not what they might choose in four levels, like I do with my own PC, but everything they can do as they are. I also need to understand what each NPC might do -- in this game in this situation.

    So my research as a player is deeper, but my research as a DM is far, far wider.

    Fortunately, it's play, not work, in both cases.
    Last edited by Jay R; 2023-06-13 at 06:10 PM.

  27. - Top - End - #57
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2022

    Default Re: What do you perceive is harder? Being a Player or a GM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zavoniki View Post
    That being said by far the hardest part of any game is out of game table management, but I reject the assumption that that falls under the GMs purview.
    It's usually the reponsiblity of whomever is actually hosting the game. Which is *usually* the GM (not always though). Either that, or I'm totally misunderstanding what you mean by "out of game table management".

    I'm really approaching this from the point of view of workload. A lot of the other stuff is incredibly subjective, and highly dependent on playstyle. Some players take on lots of extra work/duties, but that's not a "required player role". Typically though, anything that some player doesn't take on tends to fall to the GM by default. And many things, players can't do because they don't have the information needed to do so.

    Again though, "easier" and "harder" are subjective, and somewhat describe something akin to "like" and "dislike", which I don't really think is appropriate. I love GMing games. It's extremely rewarding, and I just plain like weaving together what the players want to do and some ideas I have for NPCs, and then seeing the result (and hey, toss in some other "outside" stuff along the way just to keep everone on their toes). But yeah. Whether we call it harder or easier, it is definitely a lot more time and effort to GM than to play.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    For instance, I usually have 4-8 pages of character development written by the time we sit down to play. Many people have no interest in that, but it's part of how I decide who my PC is, and what I hope he or she will grow into.
    Case in point. 4-8 pages is a pretty extreme amount of character development for a player to write. One time, when creating that character. But that's like a typical amount of written content consumed in a single game session as a GM (that might cover a couple sessions, if it's combat heavy). And that's not counting anything I may write about the game setting itself and provide to my players (which is also a one-time thing, but it's a lot of them over time).

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    Also, it's worth pointing out that DMing and playing are differently hard. At the table, its about the same level of difficulty. As player or DM, I'm am fully engaged from start to finish, trying to track everything and keep full notes. But what I'm trying to do is different. As a player, I know what my PC has done; I'm trying to learn what the situation is, and decide how to react to it tactically.

    As a DM, I know the situation; I'm trying to keep track of what effect the PCs' actions have had, and to rule fairly and competently, while simultaneously deciding how the NPCs react to it.
    Yeah. I get this. But the player "playing hard" is all happening at the table. It's part of the "play" of the game. The GM is also playing that out too (and sure, the GM has some advantages in terms of knowledge here). But the GM has to create every single thing that the players then have to "figure out" during play. It's not easy at all to set up a mystery for the players to solve and make it both hard enough that it's not immediately obvious, but difficult enough that they have to actually work at figuring things out. It's not easy to put together a set of encounters designed to present a specific amount of challenge to the PCs such that they are entertained and actively have to "work to win", but not so dangerous/deadly that they get wiped every other time they walk out the front door.

    And yeah, players also have a hard time. But usually, if the player is having a really hard time playing and is actually "struggling", then it's probably because the GM has done something wrong, either in the design or execution of the adventure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    When I'm playing (for instance) a gnome illusionist, I spend far more time researching everything he can do, or can grow into, in any situation that might come up in the next few levels. So I've drilled down far deeper on my PC's possibilities than I do as a DM. But as a DM, I need to understand what each of my players' PCs can do right now. Not what they might choose in four levels, like I do with my own PC, but everything they can do as they are. I also need to understand what each NPC might do -- in this game in this situation.

    So my research as a player is deeper, but my research as a DM is far, far wider.
    Fair enough. I will point out, however, that while some players do spend that amount of time/effort planning out their character advancement, many do not. And guess who they come to for questions about what they should do with their next level, or where to put skill points, or whatever? Yeah. Could fall to another player at the table. But often falls to the GM. The GM is also the default person a player goes to when creating a new character as well, usually because the GM has the best idea of what is available in a given area, what options will work, what wont, and can even perhaps hint to a player "hey. It might be useful to create a <insert class here> for the next adventure". And ultimately, since GMs always have final say on any new build, we're going to be at least profreading whatever anyone else has come up with annyway.

    But yeah. Valid point about the depth thing. Players are absolutely more detailed and "in depth" about their own characters than the GM is ever going to be about any NPC. I will point out, on the other hand, that there is not much in the way of parallel for players with regards to GMs creating intricate (and often quite "in depth") plots and events going on in the game setting. I often spend hours and hours doodling out ideas, and the working them out in my head, this way and that way, until I get something that "works" before writing it into the setting. And it has to work, not just from a "this makes sense as something that could happen", but also "this make sense as an interesting/engaging thing for the players to interact with". It's usually very easy to do one of those two things. But it's quite hard to do both at the same time.

    And absolutely, some players will spend a lot of time on such things relating to their own characters, but it's still the GM who has to integrate that into the game world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    Fortunately, it's play, not work, in both cases.
    That is true. Or at least "work that pays off when you play", so it's all totally worth it. I would absolutely not spend the volume of time I do prepping for games if I didn't get a payoff when actually running/playing.

  28. - Top - End - #58
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What do you perceive is harder? Being a Player or a GM?

    Gbaji and I clearly agree on a lot -- but not quite everything. For example:

    Quote Originally Posted by gbaji View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    Fortunately, it's play, not work, in both cases.
    That is true. Or at least "work that pays off when you play", so it's all totally worth it. I would absolutely not spend the volume of time I do prepping for games if I didn't get a payoff when actually running/playing.
    No, I do not mean "work that pays off when you play". I once spent a lot of time developing the Castle of the Mathemagician, with dungeon levels based on the platonic solids, a mobius strip, a Klein bottle, and lots of other things. It turns out that nobody ever played in that universe, so nobody ever saw it.

    But it wasn't work that never paid off because it wasn't work. It was play, fiddling with the rules and learning to design a dungeon. On the player side, I have designed characters I never played. That was also play, not work.

    ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Jophiel View Post
    On the topic of notes, I make it clear to the group before we start that they are welcome to ask for a reminder on people and places. Everyone has enough real stuff filling their brains and someone not remembering the name of The Silverglade Count's niece shouldn't be held against them. Just ask "Who was the person who wanted the thing?" and I'll tell you because I assume your character would have that filling their skull instead of kid's doctor appointments and needing to compile time sheets.
    I agree in some cases, but there are limits. From my "Rules for DMs":

    25. Players should not roll for common or obvious knowledge. If the world has three moons, then they don't have to roll to remember it. The PCs have lived under that sky all their life; they don't even have the idea of a world with only one moon.
    a. Explain anything that the players misunderstand but that would be clear to the PC. "Eric, a gazebo is not a monster; it's just a roofed structure with an open view. Your character is looking at a wooden building."

    44. Remind them of things that their characters would not have forgotten, but not things that characters will forget.
    a. The PCs can’t forget that they picked up a magic glaive, so if they start looking around for a long weapon, remind them that they have it. And they won’t forget the face of the sorceress who destroyed their village. But if they forgot that the blacksmith said he heard about ogres in the hills, then the PCs weren’t paying attention.
    b. This can require some careful judgment calls.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jophiel View Post
    If someone wants to take notes (and some people do) then they're welcome to and I appreciate the hustle. But no one should feel obligated to; college was over years ago. Just my opinion on making life easier for the players (and come across too many GMs who view it as a gotcha if you stumble over a name from five weeks ago during an NPC interaction)
    I'm sure your way works for you; it's just very different from my way. I've been an actuary, a telecom engineer, a statistical consultant, and a university instructor. The idea that there will come a time in my life that I won't need to keep notes is alien to me. I still have the notes from my first D&D game in 1975.

    My players include two teachers, a doctor, a lawyer, and a paralegal. Keeping notes is a professional skill in all cases. I couldn't keep them from taking notes.

    But I also clean up my notes from the session and send them out to everybody, asking them to add what I didn't include. I study them before the next game, and I know that at least two players do, too.

    [I do the same thing with my notes from a game when I'm a player, too.]

    As far as I'm concerned, sending out my notes completes my responsibility to aid their memory. I often choose to do so during a game, but it's not a commitment; see rule 44 above. But again, my current group of players are committed to their own note-taking.

    [I have always been very lucky in who I play rpgs with.]

  29. - Top - End - #59
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2011

    Default Re: What do you perceive is harder? Being a Player or a GM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy e View Post
    Simple question, what do you perceive as harder to do?

    1. Player
    Harder- You have to know your character inside and out, and play them properly. This includes the mechanics, role in the party, and role-play the character. You have to work with the group dynamics and work with your fellow party members.
    The DM has to do that also, but with more characters, significantly more, they might not need the same depth, but they definitely are keeping track of more character's abilities, and they have a lot less time to "get into" the role as it were. Your players could be like "Hey let's go to this Tavern" and suddenly you're either playing a character you haven't played in months or inventing one whole cloth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy e View Post
    You have to recall and decipher all the GM's stupid plot points, NPCs and clues. :)
    The DM also has to recall all of his stupid plot points, NPCs and clues, and has to remember ones the players don't know about if he wants to foreshadow things properly. And I have to decipher my notes to, if my players think what I tell them is confusing they should look at my notes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy e View Post
    Easier- You get to react to the world and uncover it as you go.
    Yep, and if your group is active enough you can sometimes take a back-seat there too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy e View Post

    2. GM
    Harder- You have to make an engaging world, PCs, and Scenes for players to interact with, You have to know the rules well enough to not get buffaloed, or deal with the occasional rules lawyer. Your job is to set the pace, tone, and make judgement calls. You may feel responsibly for people at the table having fun.
    All of this is true generally. With the exception that it's not "knowing" the rules that stops you getting bulldozed, it's not letting people bulldoze you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy e View Post
    Easier- You word is law, and you can outsource some of the heavy lifting to players in a pinch. They solve the problems you pose, you don't solve them! You get to react to the players.
    Except you don't. Unless you're running a complete sandbox which is really challenging (imagine having to keep track of half a dozen MORE moving parts than normal. I don't get to react to the players, because if the players say "Hey let's go over here" I need to have something ready for that. Now you can be like "Hey I didn't realize you guys would go here, can I take fifteen to figure this out" but that's clearly you not knowing something.

    Also you'd better have an idea of how your players are going to solve problems because if you don't they will not be able to solve them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy e View Post
    I think both offer unique challenges, but for you personally what role is more challenging?
    DMing is more challenging, but also more rewarding. As a player, I'm not making it so that five to six people who might not have been able to play D&D (or whatever system) can. As a DM I get to do that, and that's amazing. I get to build a whole world, and even if it sucks, players will enjoy it. I actually had to get really retrospective and start doing serious self-evaluation when I realized that players will tell your game is good, even if it's not, and you have to evaluate yourself.

    I also like playing, because you can really inhabit a character while doing that. I miss playing a lot, since I don't get to do it often.
    My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.

  30. - Top - End - #60
    Titan in the Playground
     
    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What do you perceive is harder? Being a Player or a GM?

    Quote Originally Posted by gbaji View Post
    Case in point. 4-8 pages is a pretty extreme amount of character development for a player to write.

    Perhaps for the short attention span generation, that is true.
    The cleric who replaced Korvin Starmast (he died) has a 12 page long back story.
    Everyone in our group enjoyed it, based on their feedback to me when I sent it to them in pdf format. Would you care to read it, or is that too much for you? I can send you a pdf.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2023-06-13 at 08:57 PM.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
    Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •