Clerics better than Fighters at melee?

[Armads]

Are clerics really better than fighters at melee? I admit that they are better than fighter, being able to do stuff OTHER than fight, but in a straight up "lets whack at each other" sort of fight, would the cleric actually be better than a weapon focus-using fighter at dealing damage?

I'm assuming both characters are level 10.
The Cleric's buffs consist of Greater Magic Weapon, Divine Favor and Divine Power (persisted). This gives a +3 luck bonus to attack and damage, +6 enhancement to strength and temporary hit points enough to 'equalize' the hp (assuming con mod is the same). For his domains, it'll probably be Planning and Undeath - typical DMM Persist cheese domains.

On the other hand, the fighter has Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and Melee Weapon Mastery, as well as his Shock Trooper tree. That gives a +4 to attack and a +4 to damage. The fighter'll probably get a belt of strength +4, which means that he has less strength than the cleric.

The cleric has the same attack bonus as the fighter. The fighter has spent all his fighter bonus feats, but the cleric has spent 3 feats outside his domain bonus feats (Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic, Power Attack). The fighter may continue on with his feat selection with Martial Study, followed by Martial Stance, and then changing his weapon to a +1 discipline weapon to take advantage of the higher attack bonus granted. He could also shore up his weak will save with stuff like Endurance and Steadfast Determination. So, they seem pretty equivalent, when it comes down to whacking stuff on the head with a big stick.

Am I missing out on anything?

[Nebo_]

Righteous Might, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Recitation, Stone Body... to name a few.

Fighters are better at battlefield control - trippers, lockdown and counter attacking because they have more feats to work with. Clerics are better at bashin' stuff.

[Renx]

You forgot Extend Spell, which you need if you want to get Persistent Spell. And I don't think you can get Persistent Spell before level 13 (since it's a +6 spell level feat). I know the req isn't listed, but it'd make sense.

Also, the Cleric can heal himself. He's a level away from all the good spells, and as you say, it's generally seen that Clerics start to out-zilla fighters at around lvl 11 ;)

[Armads]

You forgot Extend Spell, which you need if you want to get Persistent Spell. And I don't think you can get Persistent Spell before level 13 (since it's a +6 spell level feat). I know the req isn't listed, but it'd make sense.

Also, the Cleric can heal himself. He's a level away from all the good spells, and as you say, it's generally seen that Clerics start to out-zilla fighters at around lvl 11 ;)

Planning Domain grants Extend Spell for free. Divine Metamagic lets you cheese your way out of the spell level increase.

EDIT: The reason why I left out Righteous Might is because the size increase may not always be handy, especially when in dungeons.

[Renx]

Planning Domain grants Extend Spell for free. Divine Metamagic lets you cheese your way out of the spell level increase.

What deity grants Planning domain? O.o

[Ossian]

It's like wondering wheter a 90lb. nerd with a H&K MP 5 (10mm bullets) is better than bruce lee in a fight. Whoever uses magic, is not buffing, but bluffing. So, yes, clerics beat a lot harder, thanks to their gods.
Perhaps, if the guy with the H&K did not have the time to draw the weapon...

[Armads]

What deity grants Planning domain? O.o

Ideological Cause Alternatively, some of the CWar deities grant it.

[Renx]

Perhaps, if the guy with the H&K did not have the time to draw the weapon...

Belt of repelling against normal missiles? ;)

[brian c]

The fighter may continue on with his feat selection with Martial Study, followed by Martial Stance, and then changing his weapon to a +1 discipline weapon to take advantage of the higher attack bonus granted. He could also shore up his weak will save with stuff like Endurance and Steadfast Determination. So, they seem pretty equivalent, when it comes down to whacking stuff on the head with a big stick.

Am I missing out on anything?

If you bring ToB into the equation, then I think a Fighter could use those bonus feats to really hold his own. If it's just regular fightin' stuff though, the cleric wins. Basically, the Cleric can give himself everything the fighter has and more in terms of raw stats, which more than make up for the Fighter's feats. A Lockdown build could neutralize, but the cleric can get enlarged and negate the Lockdown advantage. Basically, the way for the Fighter to be better is if he gets buffed too, but to do that requires another character (and the best buffs are personal range, so the Fighter can never get them)

[kpenguin]

So, then the question is whether a cleric with his classic buffs on, personal range or otherwise, is more powerful or an optimized fighter with those buffs spent on him?

[brian c]

So, then the question is whether a cleric with his classic buffs on, personal range or otherwise, is more powerful or an optimized fighter with those buffs spent on him?

If the fighter can get those same exact buffs somehow, then the fighter wins because of his feats making him better at combat, and better HD; this is assuming the cleric sticks to melee combat, and doesn't use any combat spells at all.

[Nebo_]

Ossian It's like wondering wheter a 90lb. nerd with a H&K MP 5 (10mm bullets) is better than bruce lee in a fight. Whoever uses magic, is not buffing, but bluffing. So, yes, clerics beat a lot harder, thanks to their gods.
Perhaps, if the guy with the H&K did not have the time to draw the weapon...

The cleric is already buffed - DMM persist, remember. The H&K MP5 is 9mm, not 10mm.

[Vael Nir]

It really doesn't matter to me, as the cleric is usually not trying to kill the fighter. My fighter wouldn't face this problem personally, his stats and gear are great enough to nearly equal the buffed cleric, have nearly the same AC and a higher AB... it'd really depend on who gets lucky with the dice, because the fight would probably be over in two full attacks (at level 19).

[Jack_Simth]

(and the best buffs are personal range, so the Fighter can never get them)

That's not entirely true -
1) a Ring of Spell Storing technically does not have the restriction that you can't put Personal spells into it - which means a Fighter could, in theory, obtain the spells that way (use Heighten or other metamagic to avoid the caster level drop).
2) Use Magic Device and Scrolls (yes, it's cross-class).

[Nebo_]

That's not entirely true -
1) a Ring of Spell Storing technically does not have the restriction that you can't put Personal spells into it - which means a Fighter could, in theory, obtain the spells that way (use Heighten or other metamagic to avoid the caster level drop).

How are you targeting the spell into said ring?

[nyjastul69]

Ideological Cause Alternatively, some of the CWar deities grant it.

What are CWar deities?

[Armads]

What are CWar deities?

Deities in the Complete Warrior pantheon.

How are you targeting the spell into said ring?

Get a cleric to wear the ring, cast the spell into it, then give it to the fighter.

[mostlyharmful]

The problem also arises that in using spells to replicate armour and weapon enchancements the cleric has MASSIVELY more cash to throw around, some of which is going to get spent on caster boosts, but with enough left over to give some utility or protection items. Rings of blur or invis, nat armour and protection items, etc... So while the fighter might equal a preped cleric if they're cheesed to the nines, they also need to match their WBL by exceeding the DMG lists and after that the cleric's still a full caster with vastly more utility and healing power.

[Saph]

I'm assuming both characters are level 10.
The Cleric's buffs consist of Greater Magic Weapon, Divine Favor and Divine Power (persisted). This gives a +3 luck bonus to attack and damage, +6 enhancement to strength and temporary hit points enough to 'equalize' the hp (assuming con mod is the same). For his domains, it'll probably be Planning and Undeath - typical DMM Persist cheese domains.

Bear in mind that unless the DM is completely clueless, you won't be allowed full DMM Persistent cheese, for obvious reasons. So you should probably leave that out of the equation. (If your DM does allow this level of gouda, game balance is going to be so whacked-out that trying to figure out who's 'better' is a joke anyway.) Also, not everyone wants to play a cleric of planning and undeath.

This means that you have to re-cast Divine Favour and Divine Power each fight, which ties you up for one or two rounds.

- Saph

[Kaelik]

Bear in mind that unless the DM is completely clueless, you won't be allowed full DMM Persistent cheese, for obvious reasons. So you should probably leave that out of the equation. (If your DM does allow this level of gouda, game balance is going to be so whacked-out that trying to figure out who's 'better' is a joke anyway.) Also, not everyone wants to play a cleric of planning and undeath.

DMM Persist is not anywhere near the level of cheese that you can't figure out who is better.

One could just as easily counter that, "If your DM allows (Any Lockdown build/The Shocktrooper feat/any trip build) then game balance is going to be so whacked-out that trying to figure out who's 'better' is a joke anyway."

Creating useful and efficient characters that can defeat higher then normal CR encounters doesn't mean the game stops working. Just like building a true Batman Wizard doesn't mean the game is over.

[Renx]

That's not entirely true -
1) a Ring of Spell Storing technically does not have the restriction that you can't put Personal spells into it - which means a Fighter could, in theory, obtain the spells that way (use Heighten or other metamagic to avoid the caster level drop).
2) Use Magic Device and Scrolls (yes, it's cross-class).

You can't metamagic into spell storing items or scrolls.

//Edit1: Scratch that, you can metamagic into spell storing items. Just that it takes the modified level, no DMM allowed ;)

[greenknight]

Once you bring Divine Favor/Divine Power/Righteous Might into the picture, Clerics are probably about as powerful as Fighters. If you're allowing DMM and Polymorph, the buffed Cleric is probably a lot more powerful. However, the real issue is that in addition to being able to match the Fighter's ability in combat, the Cleric can do a lot of other useful stuff. But outside combat, there's not really all that much the Fighter's really useful for.

[Saph]

DMM Persist is not anywhere near the level of cheese that you can't figure out who is better.

One could just as easily counter that, "If your DM allows (Any Lockdown build/The Shocktrooper feat/any trip build) then game balance is going to be so whacked-out that trying to figure out who's 'better' is a joke anyway."

Yes, you could, but saying it doesn't make it true. DMM Persist cheese is ridiculously overpowered; everyone knows this. Hence assuming that EVERY SINGLE CLERIC is going to have it (which is what the initial post is doing) is going to give results that will bear very little resemblance to an average D&D game.

- Saph

[Kioran]

Yes, you could, but saying it doesn't make it true. DMM Persist cheese is ridiculously overpowered; everyone knows this. Hence assuming that EVERY SINGLE CLERIC is going to have it (which is what the initial post is doing) is going to give results that will bear very little resemblance to an average D&D game.

- Saph

Shock Trooper/leap attack also is, since it makes most other ways of dealing damage in melee obsolete and does ridiculous damage.........So it´s either a Core discussion (where the Fighter barely keeps the upper hand, mainly becuase he doesn´t need to spend time buffing - but still sucks at anything that does not let him power Full-Attack) or RAW with all splatbooks (where Full caster squash all others in almost all areas).

[Nebo_]

I think you're overestimating the power of a persistent cleric. Sure, it's powerful, but not nearly on the level that you're talking about.

[The John]

The cleric should start off by casting spells to lower the threat of the fighter, then buff himself. Blindness/Deafness is always fun, Hold Person, touch attack.

[mostlyharmful]

The cleric should start off by casting spells to lower the threat of the fighter, then buff himself. Blindness/Deafness is always fun, Hold Person, touch attack.

Yeah, but then it's blindingly obvious who's better, the exercise is in debating whether a cleric that only buffs themselves is superior to a fighter (seeming.y of whatever optimization but there you go). If the full caster whips out all their tricks and their combat superiority and their out of combat usefulness it isn't a very interesting thread.

[Irenaeus]

The cleric is already buffed - DMM persist, remember. The H&K MP5 is 9mm, not 10mm.

Completely OT: Although I see no reson why the example had to be that specific, Ossian said HK MP5 (10mm), which I expect refers to the MP5/10, which is indeed a 10mm variant. This is used by the FBI HRT and other organizations that deems the 9x19mm round inadequate.

[Kaelik]

Yes, you could, but saying it doesn't make it true. DMM Persist cheese is ridiculously overpowered; everyone knows this. Hence assuming that EVERY SINGLE CLERIC is going to have it (which is what the initial post is doing) is going to give results that will bear very little resemblance to an average D&D game.

You seriously overstate DMM Persist. Not to mention, isn't Shocktrooper equally assumed for fighters? Yes. That doesn't mean that it is too powerful or that it is always the best option ()You can make a Cleric without DMM persist, just that if you are playing in a high level game with a Shocktrooper build and a Batman then you do so because that's the level of play you are at.

[serow]

Cleric vs Psywar?