Swords of Answering (Also potential spoilers for Temple of Elemental Evil lore)

[Tacticslion]

I'm going to use spoilers in this first post, but don't really expect people to continue doing so past this one. Please be aware if you're interested in avoiding spoilers!

(I'm also in a different forum where there's a raging debate about what does and doesn't count as a spoiler; if I act in over-caution - sorry; if I make a mistake: sorry.)

The main question, and the one that I'm most keen on learning, is if (prior to 3e) any of the Swords of Answering other than Fragarach was ever given clear statistics (which gem was which, what alignment it relates to, etc.), or if it was just said that "there are other lesser swords of different alignments; also they each have a different gem." Anyone know?

Now to the more spoilery parts and questions related.

So, Fragarach is the original sword of Answering, but reading through

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Temple of Elemental Evil

(a major adventure) you have

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a LG paladin lord devoted to a lawful good religion who wields a sword that says it automatically attacks lawful people who hold it, but is loyal to him above all others.

So that's weird. Was this just an error? Intentional? One of those weird things no one can ever know?

The other thing is that in said adventure, the PCs

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can possibly earn (more-or-less after the adventure*, as an apparent reward from the lawful good religions) the privilege of the sword Scather. Now, as I said, I don't know any of the alignments prior to 3e, but in 3e Scather is said to be NE and in 5e it's LE and has a garnet. Regardless of which of the two it's "supposed" to be, that seems like a very odd reward for adventurers (and seems like the opposite of what they'd want to do with a weapon like that). Again, is that supposed to be what it's alignment was?

If so, is there something in particular that makes it make more sense that they would deliver such an item to the adventurers?

(I've heard that there were a lot of last minute changes that means much of the adventure should just be rewritten, though I've avoided doing so; I have so far retained all the mentions of "Lolth" despite suggestions to the contrary, for example. I am curious how much of that is true, though.)

[Kish]

Most likely, Fragarach was supposed to be Lawful Good or its wielder was supposed to be a Chaotic Good knight lord. My advice would be to decide which one you consider the more likely or appropriate editing error and go with that.

Scather's alignment isn't given in that module; in that case I would consider it a case of the writers thinking "the DM will appropriately flesh out this named +2 sword we mention only very briefly." Later editions declaring it evil...well, that's not appropriate at all, for the 1ed treatment. (And as far as it being intended, well, I would point out that not one of the lesser swords of answering matches alignments between 3ed and 5ed, with Scather ironically tying with Squelcher for being changed the least.) My advice would be to give Scather Neutral Good alignment.

[CE DM]

the stupid forum keeps eating my posts, very frustrating & I refuse to do it all over yet again, but here, this link alone ought be helpful

http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules....rticle&sid=338

[rredmond]

... if I act in over-caution - sorry; if I make a mistake ...

Being over-cautious is never a bad idea :D This is a good question.

the stupid forum keeps eating my posts, very frustrating & I refuse to do it all over yet again, but here, this link alone ought be helpful

http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules....rticle&sid=338

Great Link!!

I would go with the first ("Extreme") option, make it a LG sword methinks. I wonder if there's some crossover with the 3 point alignment system of OD&D vs. the 9 point of 1e?

[CE DM]

Hi Ron! (Don). After having numerous links & lines & loosing them twice, it seemed the most succinct & yet complete way to post it rapidly, so you are welcome! Hopefully it helps the OP.

I do not think there would be any crossover to the 3 alignments, but one can never be 100% sure I suppose. I think it was clear that Gygax was using plenty of what would become AD&D before AD&D got published.

For example, Lord Robilar (Rob Kuntz's fighter PC) had already turned to lawful evil alignment when he wrecked havoc in the TOEE under DM Gary Gygax (long before the module is written up by Frank Mentzer).

[rredmond]

Waitaminitt, [looks at location] oh hey Don! :D

I think it was clear that Gygax was using plenty of what would become AD&D before AD&D got published.

Ah, yes, this I've heard before. I don't know (or much care because they feel the same to me) the wackiness between OD&D and 1e - I remember a bit about the MM and it's HD, and some other small things. So I wondered if these swords of answering might suffer the same things. I do know I've red this question before and I doubt anyone has much of a "cannon" answer, though that cannonfire link is a great one!

Be well!

[Crake]

This article on greyhawk wiki outlines the various changes that the swords of answering went through over the editions, including gemstones, names, and their attribution to various alignments: https://greyhawkonline.com/greyhawkw...s_of_Answering

[rredmond]

Thank you for the article link Crake.
Amazing following of the 45 day rule too ;)