Skill Tricks

[Ne0]

What is everyone's general opinion on Skill Tricks from the Complete Scoundrel book? I don't have the book, but they seem interesting. Although a good DM can help you to the same, it gives a nice touch on your character, especially with scoundrels - hence the name of that book, I guess -. But are there any other mentionings of them anywhere else? And is there something wrong with them mechanically? I haven't heard a lot about them on this board.

[Sleet]

It's been a while since I looked at them, but I recall my reaction being "I'd let my players try these things anyway."

[Crow]

They're not really all that exceptional. I'd rather keep the skill points, personally.

[Ganurath]

I like them. Rogue spends 6+Int on skills first level, plus learn four languages. Every level after that, increase skills and learn a skill trick until you qualify for a PrC which gives you 6+Int per level.

[Mr.Moron]

What is everyone's general opinion on Skill Tricks from the Complete Scoundrel book?

I like them, they're flavorful little additions that can be somewhat useful. They add distinct new actions at a low cost in comparison to feats, and their power level is reasonable. A skill trick isn't going to break the game or even be all that powerful;however, somebody who has one, is going to do something that stands out from somebody who doesn't.

[Craig1f]

A few are pretty awesome. Swift Concentration can really come in handy (make a concentration check as a swift action once/encounter).

Listen to This is also quite useful, when you play a stupid barbarian with a high listen score. This skill trick lets you repeat something you've overheard, with such accuracy that everyone can make checks as if they'd made the same listen check. This is great for overhearing conversations in a language you don't know, or identifying what kind of monster you heard.

The skill tricks that let you pretend to cast a different spell than you're casting, or cast a spell without anyone knowing you're casting a spell, are great for the beguiler.

There really are quite a few awesome skill tricks.

[Mr. Friendly]

I like the Skill Tricks. I like Point it Out, Acrobatic Backstab, Up the Hill, Collector of Stories and Never Outnumbered.

All in all, they are nifty.

[Ne0]

Are there any feats or supplements on them?

Personally, I like the sound of 'Spot the weak point' the most, even though it's not the greatest.

[goat]

Acrobatic backstab can be useful, especially against heavily armoured opponents, but at only once per encounter it's not overly abusable.

[Craig1f]

The way skill tricks work, is the way I wish feats worked for Fighters.

Fighters should get "psuedofeats" at every level. Feats that can only be used 1/day or 1/encounter or something.

I think every fighter should have improved bullrush, improved trip, improved sunder, improved grapple, and combat reflexes, but shouldn't get to use all of them all the time.

It would add the same versatility to fighters, that magic adds to spell casters.

Skill tricks do this much better. Skill tricks allow people to perform "feats" better than feats do!

[hobbitguy1420]

Erm... sounds like the Tome of Battle classes.

[Saph]

Yeah, I'm not quite sure why no-one pays attention to them, since I've always thought they're a fun little addition to the game. It's probably because they're neither especially overpowered nor especially underpowered, and don't make much difference to your build's power one way or the other (2 skill points isn't much).

I'd recommend them for any character with skill points to spare. Collector of Stories is my personal favourite, and the Tumble skill tricks that allow you to stand up from prone are handy too.

- Saph

[Craig1f]

Erm... sounds like the Tome of Battle classes.

True, except ToB makes it too complicated. There are too many weird maneuvers that don't seem very "fighter" to me.

[Nowhere Girl]

The way skill tricks work, is the way I wish feats worked for Fighters.

Fighters should get "psuedofeats" at every level. Feats that can only be used 1/day or 1/encounter or something.

I think every fighter should have improved bullrush, improved trip, improved sunder, improved grapple, and combat reflexes, but shouldn't get to use all of them all the time.

That would just turn fighters into warblades with less impressive tricks that can only be used once per day rather than once per encounter, with the option to refresh and reuse if needed.

So really, what you're wanting is warblades.

[Craig1f]

That would just turn fighters into warblades with less impressive tricks that can only be used once per day rather than once per encounter, with the option to refresh and reuse if needed.

So really, what you're wanting is warblades.

Meh, ok, I guess I've refused to look at that book for some reason. At least one of my DMs doesn't allow it .. I think that's why I haven't looked at it.

I hear the swordsage is good. I'll have to check that book out next week.

The thing is, I don't want a sword sage. I want a barbarian with more flavor.

[Ne0]

Are there any feats for skill tricks? Like allowing you to use them more often? Once per encounter can sometimes be a little long to wait before you can use it again...

[AKA_Bait]

Personally, I think they are superawesome. I like when there are actual rules that someone came up with for things I've always wanted there to be rules to support. Skill tricks covered a few rule gaps in the things that sneaky characters want to do.

[Nowhere Girl]

Meh, ok, I guess I've refused to look at that book for some reason. At least one of my DMs doesn't allow it .. I think that's why I haven't looked at it.

Ah, one of the "zomg ToB is overpowered!!1!" types, right?

Just play a Batman wizard with all the brokenness you can get your hands on in that game instead. Betcha your DM won't as worried about the "brokenness" (yeah, right) of ToB classes as he is about the brokenness of wizards after you get done with it.

[Yrnes]

Nimble Stand (or, if you've got the ranks in it, Back on Your Feet) are awesome. Stand up from prone as a free action without provoking an AoO? Yes please!

[Lord Tataraus]

I like the concept, but the implementation was not very good. Some of the skill tricks are stuff I'd let my players do anyway, some of them are just pathetic and some of them are really neat. However, you only get to use it once per encounter, not enough at all.

[AKA_Bait]

I like the concept, but the implementation was not very good. Some of the skill tricks are stuff I'd let my players do anyway, some of them are just pathetic and some of them are really neat. However, you only get to use it once per encounter, not enough at all.

Well, for the awesome ones some are actually really only good for once an encounter anyway. Like the one that allows you to make a perform check to hide casting a spell. The ones that have application outside of roundtime always struck me as the most useful.

[zaei]

I'm of mixed mind about skill tricks. On the one hand, they seem like rules for the sake of rules. Why do I have to spend 2 of my skill points to be able to do something that I could probably do with a regular skill? On the other hand, some of them are pretty nifty, and allow you to do things that are normally not allowed by the rules (but again, a DM who's not playing strictly by RAW would probably let you attempt with straight skills, anyway). I probably lean towards more flexibility with simpler rules instead of a rule for every situation.

I also find that I never have enough skill points to spend on them, even when I'm pulling in 12 skillpoints per level from classes, int, and race. I might look at them more if I wasn't spending those points on things I'll probably end up using more often.

[Mr. Friendly]

Are there any feats for skill tricks? Like allowing you to use them more often? Once per encounter can sometimes be a little long to wait before you can use it again...

There are Skill Trick feats in Complete Scoundrel:

• Cool Head
• Freerunner
• Sure Hand
• Sweet Talker

They all essentially do the same thing, just with a different catagory of skill trick. They give you two free skill tricks and increase your limit of Skill Tricks known by +1.

There are also 3 or 4 ST related Prestige Classes in the book that do various cool stuff in relation to skill tricks.

[Saph]

I like the concept, but the implementation was not very good. Some of the skill tricks are stuff I'd let my players do anyway, some of them are just pathetic and some of them are really neat. However, you only get to use it once per encounter, not enough at all.

Most encounters only last 3-5 rounds. Odds are that you aren't going to need to use a skill trick more than once in that short a time anyway. Collector of Stories, for instance: for the restriction to matter, you have to enter an encounter with multiple enemies, of different types, all of which you haven't seen/identified before. Not that likely to happen, and the trick's still useful even if it does.

- Saph

[Craig1f]

Ah, one of the "zomg ToB is overpowered!!1!" types, right?

Just play a Batman wizard with all the brokenness you can get your hands on in that game instead. Betcha your DM won't as worried about the "brokenness" (yeah, right) of ToB classes as he is about the brokenness of wizards after you get done with it.

Wow ... talk about hostility. Lay off the coffee/alcohol/sugar/meth/'roids.

This DM is playing a low-magic world. The magic-users are very gimped. They have a very limited selection of spells. We'll see if he's able to keep that up when we get to higher levels though.

We're only level 6 right now, and we're considered the most powerful warriors in the lands by far.

[Craig1f]

Most encounters only last 3-5 rounds. Odds are that you aren't going to need to use a skill trick more than once in that short a time anyway. Collector of Stories, for instance: for the restriction to matter, you have to enter an encounter with multiple enemies, of different types, all of which you haven't seen/identified before. Not that likely to happen, and the trick's still useful even if it does.

- Saph

The exception that comes to mind is Swift Concentration.

If I were an illusionist, I would want to use Swift Concentration every round. That way, I could start out with some crazy illusion, and then keep it going while I do other things.

Edit: I want to do a Gnome Beguiler. I can already think of 10 Skill tricks I want for him. Swift Concentration is high on the list.

[Kaelik]

The exception that comes to mind is Swift Concentration.

If I were an illusionist, I would want to use Swift Concentration every round. That way, I could start out with some crazy illusion, and then keep it going while I do other things.

Well you could take a feat that lets you do that. Or you could cast Sonorous Hum, and the spell holds concentration for you.

[Craig1f]

Well you could take a feat that lets you do that. Or you could cast Sonorous Hum, and the spell holds concentration for you.

I'm doing a beguiler next. I don't think they can get Sonorous Hum.

What's the feat that does this again?

[Lord Tataraus]

Most encounters only last 3-5 rounds. Odds are that you aren't going to need to use a skill trick more than once in that short a time anyway. Collector of Stories, for instance: for the restriction to matter, you have to enter an encounter with multiple enemies, of different types, all of which you haven't seen/identified before. Not that likely to happen, and the trick's still useful even if it does.

- Saph

Really? In my games battles last for many rounds even at high levels because I step them up to have waves or extremely resistant opponents. I've always felt (as do my players) that quick battles were a sign of bad preparation and style by the DM. Of course, my group doesn't play with batman wizards that kill opponents in the first round because its not fun at all and the only guy we've had that kills really fast was a FB but he kept on getting tripped up with fancy tactics on the enemy's part. So at least in my games where battles take at least 10 rounds at mid to high levels, 1/encounter sucks. I have not really had too much experience with too many other DMs so I don't really know how long the "average" IRL battle.

[Chronicled]

The thing is, I don't want a sword sage. I want a barbarian with more flavor.

Then either a Crusader or Warblade sounds like a good fit for you, depending on what you like.

Crusaders get the "pound on me all day if you like, I'm just going to use that to hit you harder" thing with their delayed damage pool and furious counterstrike. Stone Dragon maneuvers are good for the "hitting things even harder" school of thought, White Raven is good for a warchief, and Devoted Spirit is good for the barbarian that just can't seem to be brought down.

Warblades get Tiger Claw maneuvers, which work great for a dual-wielding beserker who carves things to bits. While they have a lot of Int-based abilitiees, not focusing on those doesn't really detract from the class too much; alternatively, you can be a cunning savage (similar to Conan, perhaps). White Raven again works for a warchief, Stone Dragon and Iron Heart both are good for the "one solid hit." The only one to avoid for a barbarian-flavored warblade is Diamond Mind (and, depending who you ask, Iron Heart).

What I enjoy about it is that it gives melee classes numerous more options than "I hit it/Full attack it/Bull rush it." Your barbarian will usually do more damage than any of them, but the Tome of Battle classes will be more versatile.

Hope that helps!