New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 61 to 90 of 121
  1. - Top - End - #61
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Wheel of Time S2

    They actually avoided the ďSunday ride to FalmeĒ problem that plagued later seasons of Game of Thrones, if only just. Perrinís ride there takes months, as we only pick up the story after about a 6 month time skip. Thatís about right from what I recall from the books. The unforgivable bit is Nynaeve thinking she can ride there from Tar Valon in time to help Perrin. What does she expect to find after 6 months? However, we donít see her actually do so - when Liandrin captures them, she transports them through the Ways like they did in the books.

    Iím honestly unsure why they went this route - having Nynaeve trust Liandrin would make perfect sense in show canon, and they could have gone through the Ways same as in the books.

    The books did have different cultures looking different, but in general I think a small village is a small village is a small village.

    The rest of your complaints are a mix of show and book problems. Budget keeps the size of the cast down, and pacing keeps the size of the world down. There are a lot of different villages that get passed through in the books, and thatís where a lot of the background lore is dumped. Those scenes are dropped in the show in order to keep the plot moving - remember that weíre condensing 2 doorstopper books into 16 episodes, while also fitting in elements from the third book and doing show-original storylines.

    The lack of urgency is because that was true in the books - Jordan was writing for a long saga, and the first few books are relatively simple in scope. Outside of Tarwins Gap we donít really see large armies of Trollocs roaming about - weíre told that there are constant border skirmishes but thatís it. The villains have actually been more active in the show than the books!

  2. - Top - End - #62
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    ElfPirate

    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Location
    Seattle, WA

    Default Re: Wheel of Time S2

    For what it's worth, when I said "roughly 8-v-1", that was me being extremely generous to Perrin and giving him credit for 33% of the work. While I didn't remember the scene where Gaul similarly took on 12 in the book (and so can't comment on how that happened), I stand by my point that this is going to make it harder for them to choreograph fights with a credible threat level in the future.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darths & Droids
    When you combine the two most devious, sneaky, manipulative, underhanded, cunning, and diabolical forces in the known universe, the consequences can be world-shattering. Those forces are, of course, players and GMs.
    Optimization Trophies

    Looking for a finished webcomic to read, or want to recommend one to others? Check out my Completed Webcomics You'd Recommend II thread!

    Or perhaps you want something Halloweeny for the season? Halloween Webcomics II

  3. - Top - End - #63
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Wheel of Time S2

    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    For what it's worth, when I said "roughly 8-v-1", that was me being extremely generous to Perrin and giving him credit for 33% of the work. While I didn't remember the scene where Gaul similarly took on 12 in the book (and so can't comment on how that happened), I stand by my point that this is going to make it harder for them to choreograph fights with a credible threat level in the future.
    And I stand by my point that comparing 8 jobber whitecloaks to 5 blademasters is a pretty specious comparison. This scene served its purpose of introducing Aiel-fu to a general audience.

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Regarding the scene as portrayed: it is easy to beat the white cloaks when all that they are portrayed as is lumbering targets in armor who can't fight worth a hoot. The fight scene fell short in that respect. In the books, overall, the white cloaks are a palpable threat. Trivializing them does a disservice to how Jordan placed them in the world. (The S1 white cloak scenes mostly captured their latent, and overt, threat posture well enough).
    They're really not though! They're jobbers in the books and they're jobbers in the show. In Book 1 their sentries are such a joke that Nynaeve can, with no magic of her own or even help, steal all of their horses to free Perrin and Egwene. Perrin killed two of them in the first book by himself. At no point prior to Galad are we supposed to take any of them seriously.

    With that said, I agree on the lighting issues and the rapid edits making the action really hard to follow. Compare to One Piece, whose action scenes have beautiful long takes, tons of mooks and plenty of lighting.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  4. - Top - End - #64
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2013

    Default Re: Wheel of Time S2

    Spoiler
    Show


    The problem with a 12 on 2 fight is that it's realistically unwinnable, so your choices are 'show it, and be unconvincing' or 'don't show it, and be confusing.'

    I think perhaps the Fade fight would have worked better with 1 instead of 3, show us how indestructable they are.

    Whitecloaks, like every other faction, have a range of dangerous v less dangerous.

    Whether the crew you meet is commanded by Geofram Bornhald, Pedron Niall, Carridin or Valda makes a big difference.


  5. - Top - End - #65
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Wheel of Time S2

    The Gaul fight in the books also wasnít against Whitecloaks, if Iím remembering correctly. It was against wannabe Horn Hunters who were little more than town bravos.

  6. - Top - End - #66
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2013

    Default Re: Wheel of Time S2

    There were two fights.

    Gaul was originaslly captured by hunters (he and a friend who was killed) but when Perrin breaks him out whitecloaks interrupt.

  7. - Top - End - #67
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Wheel of Time S2

    I believe the only Whitecloak we ever see who is particularly good with a sword is Galad. The rest are middling to bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    The Gaul fight in the books also wasnít against Whitecloaks, if Iím remembering correctly. It was against wannabe Horn Hunters who were little more than town bravos.
    The Hunters put the Aiel in the cage, the Whitecloaks showed up (as in the show) when Perrin let the Aiel out.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  8. - Top - End - #68
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Gridania, Eorzea
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Wheel of Time S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    The Hunters put the Aiel in the cage, the Whitecloaks showed up (as in the show) when Perrin let the Aiel out.
    "Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me" - Mike Wazowski Whitecloak
    Quote Originally Posted by Rockphed View Post
    Dwarf Fortress would like to have a word with you. The word is decorated with bands of microcline and meanaces with spikes of rose gold. On the word is an image of the word in cinnabar.
    Quote Originally Posted by kpenguin View Post
    This is an image of Wookietank the Destroyer of Fortresses engraved in sandstone. Wookietank the Destroyer of Fortresses is leaving Trotknives. Trotknives is on fire and full of goblins. This image refers to the destruction of Trotknives in late winter of 109 by Wookietank the Destroyer of Fortresses.

  9. - Top - End - #69
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Australia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Wheel of Time S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    They're really not though! They're jobbers in the books and they're jobbers in the show. In Book 1 their sentries are such a joke that Nynaeve can, with no magic of her own or even help, steal all of their horses to free Perrin and Egwene. Perrin killed two of them in the first book by himself. At no point prior to Galad are we supposed to take any of them seriously.
    Depends on the situation. Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't. Lord Captain Commander Pedron Niall is considered one of the Five Great Captains, the best military commanders in the land, and the Whitecloak Wars were a major conflict in which the Whitecloaks took on 3 nations, including Illian, and fought them to a standstill, and even captured the Illian King at one point.

  10. - Top - End - #70
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Wheel of Time S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    Depends on the situation. Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't. Lord Captain Commander Pedron Niall is considered one of the Five Great Captains, the best military commanders in the land, and the Whitecloak Wars were a major conflict in which the Whitecloaks took on 3 nations, including Illian, and fought them to a standstill, and even captured the Illian King at one point.
    None of which pertain to what actually happens in the book. Even his skill as a general is pure Informed Attribute, because he doesn't last long enough to lead a single successful battle on the page.

    And even if we did see him be a successful general in the present day - which again, we don't - that doesn't have anything to do with the average whitecloak's combat skill.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  11. - Top - End - #71
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Toledo, Ohio
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Wheel of Time S2

    A Whitecloak army is an extremely powerful thing, so long as there's no damane or asha'man or dragons about. They're an organized force of heavy horse in an age when most nations can't support such things. We also see enough of Niall for his title of Great Captain to be justified - he lays excellent plans and covers for unforseen events. He just let hit assumptions lead him to dismiss good intelligence because it was so obviously a ploy.

    Individual Whitecloaks wandering around and causing trouble are another story. They tend to be absolutely arrogant because nobody would dare resist the champion of holiness, and they never expect to do anything on foot other than bully defenseless peasants. Anybody strong enough to resist is somebody in a position to be attacked by an army, and few rulers would dare risk open war with the self-appointed champions of good. It really isn't contradictory for them to lose badly when somebody strong enough to resist decides to, despite being deadly dangerous under other circumstances.

  12. - Top - End - #72
    Titan in the Playground
     
    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Wheel of Time S2

    Episode 6 was good, but parts of it were very hard to watch.

    Spoiler: Impressions of Ep 6, I stayed up until midnight to watch it
    Show
    1. The interaction between Egwene and her controller / sul'dam were very well done, very brutal and wandered well into pure sadism.
    They are the kind of scenes that makes my wife angry at me for watching the show. (And certain other movies or mini-series: she also dislikes The Witcher). I have to watch this show when she's not in the house, or is asleep and I am in another room. Scenes like that are why.
    But were they well done? Yes!
    They were still hard to watch even for me who takes violent scenes in stride. The base cruelty and exploitive nature of the Seanchan culture is on full display.
    There seemed to be a trace of sexual kinkiness / eroticism, or allusion to that, in the tree burning scene but maybe I picked up on something that wasn't intended to be there; the expression on the face of the sul'dam during that scene is what left that impression.

    2. Lanfear / Liandrin scene at the death bed of Liandrin's son: brief, concise, and brutal. "Your oaths were to the Dark, not to Ishamael." Point made, and I think point taken.

    3. The Wheel dream-dialogue between Rand and Lanfear. Well done. Also, gratuitous beefcake.

    4. Ishamael's scenes. While I like that we see the arch villain (or the lead villain for the time being) taking actions to further his aims, his dialogue with Lord Turok last episode, and this one, raises the point that I have asked myself since I first saw him with the Seanchan, which boils down to
    "You came out of nowhere and you climb high into our leadership circles, but I don't know who you are."
    Honestly, that ought to raise more red flags In Character / In World than it seems to do. Yes, the gift of The Horn certainly adds to his appeal.

    5. Liandrin scolding the Seanchan harpy over treatment of damane registered pretty well, as did her sly loosing of their bonds. Her terse "You are a complication" to Elayne (was that ep 5 or this one?) strikes me as the understatement of this season.

    6. Trying to figure out the a'dam: interesting set of scenes. The fight where the yellow robed Aes Sdeai is captured: good scene, and I think that it had emotional impact they were going for.

    7. The broken blue sitter: I can't recall from the book if she gets released, but her despair came across very well in her brief appearance near the end of ep 6.

    8. The scenes with Mat: a mixed bag. His brief interactions with Rand felt clunky. Min's "if you love him you won't go with him" worked as I think they intended.

    9. Allana's warders accusing Lan of being a dark friend. Was that in the books? I had a WTF moment.

    10. The scheming librarians: I liked those scenes. Verin is well cast.

    11. Nice double cliff hanger at the end: Siuan's arrival and Lan's surprise confrontation with Rand.

    12. I have mixed feelings about Min's scenes. She's certainly getting across the curse of foretelling, and the leverage Ishamael has over her, but something isn't gelling for me. Not sure what it is.

    13. Damodred family drama: it didn't quite gel for me. Moiraine's put down of her sister near the end of the ep was beautifully cold.

    14. A mention was made of Mazrim Taim (either in this ep or ep 5) that I just picked up on last night as I watched 4 through 6. I am going to have to go with subtitles, I am missing bits of the dialogue.

    15. Lanfear: Natasha Okeefe is killing it. (I liked her in Peeky Blinders also).

    16. Decadent Seanchan, Oiger sings to a tree. Interesting scene, but felt a bit clunky.

    As I drove to work, it struck me that Wheel of Time is about witch hunts.

    1. Moiraine goes out on a witch hunt in Two Rivers, finds a few, but protects them rather than burns them.
    2. The White Cloaks are on a traditional Witch Hunt, stake burning and all.
    3. The White Tower goes on witch hunts to still male channlers, and take out wild / unregulated females, or to recruit them.
    4. The Forsaken hunt channelers / witches to recruit them to the Dark One's side.
    5. The Black Tower (in later books, asha'man, the men in black shirts) hunt Aes Sedai and also hunt male channelers/witches to recruit.
    6. The Seanchan hunt witches to turn into their pets / damane so that they can exploit their power.

    Did I miss any other witch hunters?
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2023-09-22 at 09:00 AM.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
    Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society

  13. - Top - End - #73
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Wheel of Time S2

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Did I miss any other witch hunters?
    Shara, though who even knows if they will be in the show. They play a big part in the books to ratchet the stakes up to eleven at the tail end of the story, but to me they can't help but feel like Diabolus Ex Machina in a lot of ways. (In fact, they're even called out on that tvtropes page.)
    Last edited by Psyren; 2023-09-22 at 10:29 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  14. - Top - End - #74
    Titan in the Playground
     
    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Wheel of Time S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Shara, though who even knows if they will be in the show. They play a big part in the books to ratchet the stakes up to eleven at the tail end of the story, but to me they can't help but feel like Diabolus Ex Machina in a lot of ways. (In fact, they're even called out on that tvtropes page.)
    Given that I never got past Winter's Heart, makes sense that I'd have missed them. Thanks.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
    Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society

  15. - Top - End - #75
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Wheel of Time S2

    I basically headcanon that not happening. "Oh hey, remember these guys who were only ever shown in the quasi-canon companion book?"

    No, seriously, that's how bad it is. They get mentioned in passing a couple times in Lord of Chaos, once in Winter's Heart, and that's it until they appear out of nowhere.

    The reasoning for it is known too.

    Spoiler: Books
    Show
    Mazrim Taim was meant to be Demandred, right down to him echoing one of Demadred's lines right before we get into Sanderson territory. This plot twist was so widely guessed that Jordan changed tacks by making them different characters, which then meant he had to explain where Demandred had been all this time. He placed him in Shara, but the setup work hadn't been done and Sanderson failed to fit a new setup into the final trilogy (apparently it wound up on the cutting room floor before eventually getting released as a short story).

  16. - Top - End - #76
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Wheel of Time S2

    Overall I really loved this episode. Everything about the horror of the Kennels, the precariousness of Siuan's political situation and the deviousness of Lanfear is captured to a tee.

    My one gripe is that the Seanchan accents seem to be nothing special. I know it would conflict with the needed menace, but part of me mourns the fact that we won't be getting "Y'ALL BETTUH BOW TO THE EMPRESS NAH, Y'HEAR??" in this version.

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Episode 6 was good, but parts of it were very hard to watch.

    Spoiler: Impressions of Ep 6, I stayed up until midnight to watch it
    Show
    1. The interaction between Egwene and her controller / sul'dam were very well done, very brutal and wandered well into pure sadism.
    They are the kind of scenes that makes my wife angry at me for watching the show. (And certain other movies or mini-series: she also dislikes The Witcher). I have to watch this show when she's not in the house, or is asleep and I am in another room. Scenes like that are why.
    But were they well done? Yes!
    They were still hard to watch even for me who takes violent scenes in stride. The base cruelty and exploitive nature of the Seanchan culture is on full display.
    There seemed to be a trace of sexual kinkiness / eroticism, or allusion to that, in the tree burning scene but maybe I picked up on something that wasn't intended to be there; the expression on the face of the sul'dam during that scene is what left that impression.

    2. Lanfear / Liandrin scene at the death bed of Liandrin's son: brief, concise, and brutal. "Your oaths were to the Dark, not to Ishamael." Point made, and I think point taken.

    3. The Wheel dream-dialogue between Rand and Lanfear. Well done. Also, gratuitous beefcake.

    4. Ishamael's scenes. While I like that we see the arch villain (or the lead villain for the time being) taking actions to further his aims, his dialogue with Lord Turok last episode, and this one, raises the point that I have asked myself since I first saw him with the Seanchan, which boils down to
    "You came out of nowhere and you climb high into our leadership circles, but I don't know who you are."
    Honestly, that ought to raise more red flags In Character / In World than it seems to do. Yes, the gift of The Horn certainly adds to his appeal.

    5. Liandrin scolding the Seanchan harpy over treatment of damane registered pretty well, as did her sly loosing of their bonds. Her terse "You are a complication" to Elayne (was that ep 5 or this one?) strikes me as the understatement of this season.

    6. Trying to figure out the a'dam: interesting set of scenes. The fight where the yellow robed Aes Sdeai is captured: good scene, and I think that it had emotional impact they were going for.

    7. The broken blue sitter: I can't recall from the book if she gets released, but her despair came across very well in her brief appearance near the end of ep 6.

    8. The scenes with Mat: a mixed bag. His brief interactions with Rand felt clunky. Min's "if you love him you won't go with him" worked as I think they intended.

    9. Allana's warders accusing Lan of being a dark friend. Was that in the books? I had a WTF moment.

    10. The scheming librarians: I liked those scenes. Verin is well cast.

    11. Nice double cliff hanger at the end: Siuan's arrival and Lan's surprise confrontation with Rand.

    12. I have mixed feelings about Min's scenes. She's certainly getting across the curse of foretelling, and the leverage Ishamael has over her, but something isn't gelling for me. Not sure what it is.

    13. Damodred family drama: it didn't quite gel for me. Moiraine's put down of her sister near the end of the ep was beautifully cold.

    14. A mention was made of Mazrim Taim (either in this ep or ep 5) that I just picked up on last night as I watched 4 through 6. I am going to have to go with subtitles, I am missing bits of the dialogue.

    15. Lanfear: Natasha Okeefe is killing it. (I liked her in Peeky Blinders also).

    16. Decadent Seanchan, Oiger sings to a tree. Interesting scene, but felt a bit clunky.
    1) Indeed - part of the horror of damane is that they are indeed equal parts infantilized/animalized and sexualized (in a very twisted BDSM-inspired way.) The show captured both aspects extremely well.

    2) Lanfear is perfection. That is all.

    3) Regarding the treatment of Lan, I guess I do have a second gripe:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Yeah, nobody who knows his history - which should be every Warder if not every Aes Sedai - should ever even put his name and Darkfriend in the same sentence. That was a miss. But it's also somewhat understandable - he and Moiraine are absolutely breaking the law, and its one with capital punishment (stilling/execution) to boot, and Alanna knows better than anyone how much danger Siuan is in due to her perceived association with Moiraine. So in this darker Turning I can understand the gravity of their accusation.


    4) Maigan is in the books, kind of, but is a very minor character. The one we see here is essentially a completely different person besides sharing a name and station.

    5) Jury is still out on whether they do Taimandred in this version.
    Spoiler
    Show
    The one thing they said about Taim so far is he's stronger than Logain, which wasn't the case in the books, so so far it's looking more likely than not.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    I basically headcanon that not happening. "Oh hey, remember these guys who were only ever shown in the quasi-canon companion book?"

    No, seriously, that's how bad it is. They get mentioned in passing a couple times in Lord of Chaos, once in Winter's Heart, and that's it until they appear out of nowhere.

    The reasoning for it is known too.

    Spoiler: Books
    Show
    Mazrim Taim was meant to be Demandred, right down to him echoing one of Demadred's lines right before we get into Sanderson territory. This plot twist was so widely guessed that Jordan changed tacks by making them different characters, which then meant he had to explain where Demandred had been all this time. He placed him in Shara, but the setup work hadn't been done and Sanderson failed to fit a new setup into the final trilogy (apparently it wound up on the cutting room floor before eventually getting released as a short story).
    Yeah I definitely hope the show goes in a different direction altogether.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Given that the Randland Darkfriends are less moustache-twirling clowns this time around, I expect the finale will have more of them siding with the Dark organically, and less need for this kind of rectal sourcing.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2023-09-22 at 03:29 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  17. - Top - End - #77
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2015

    Default Re: Wheel of Time S2

    re: Renna's expression during the burning of the tree, I'd bet on that being the euphoric effect of drawing upon the one power. Renna is implied to be inexperienced as a Sul'Dam so it would make sense that she's also new to the sensation of (second-hand) embracing the source.

  18. - Top - End - #78
    Titan in the Playground
     
    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Wheel of Time S2

    Quote Originally Posted by tiornys View Post
    Renna is implied to be inexperienced as a Sul'Dam
    Didn't come across that way to me.
    She mentions early in the prison cell/kennel cell encounter before Egwene tries her first futile attack that she prefers that sul'dam and damane be friends. I got the idea from that opening that she had worked with damane before.

    I had not considered that the euphoric feeling of the Source would be a factor, but now that you mention it that might be a part of it.
    But she also said something about 'we two are one' (I'd need to go back and watch again to the exact words, or bound together) as the source flowed into the tree that came across with an erotic sub text. But it was late, and upon watching it again I might not get that same impression.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
    Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society

  19. - Top - End - #79
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2013

    Default Re: Wheel of Time S2

    Spoiler: books
    Show
    Tuon says at one point that sexualising damane is regarded as perverted, it's like sexualising your dog

    I doubt Renna is inexperienced, they wouldn't give Egwene to just any sul'dam.



    They're doing some interesting things, I'm still waiting for reveals to determine what to make of them.

    Spoiler: Episode 6
    Show


    Egwene's plot easily the best, naturally, painful as it is to watch. Burning that tree was such a clever yet cruel move.

    Confirmed that Moiraine at least thinks she has been stilled. Which leaves me with interesting questions.

    Does she know she can lie now, assuming that's the same? I'm thinking back to 'we were never equals', because it becomes important whether that was a deliberate lie, an accidental lie, or something she truly believes. If she believes it, that means Lan dedicated himself for twenty years to someone that didn't respect him as an equal and never did, which is a rather grim take, because his dedication was based on something that wasn't true. She could have just been saying that to drive him away, but then that would mean she knows she can lie. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be asking these questions or not.

    If she does know she can lie, then all of that telling people 'I can't lie' is lying, which has interesting implications, because once that's found out Moiraine loses a lot of the credibility she is relying on.

    Lan and Moiraine's plot seems to be going a bit darker than the author intended. We have established in show canon through Logain and Steppin that the bond being broken and being stilled/gentled both result in eventually fatal depression. Steppin held on for a while because he had a purpose (bring the ring to the tower) and then immediately cracked once that was done.

    Moiraine is holding on by clinging to her purpose of protecting/managing Rand, and lashing out pointlessly at everyone else.

    Lan is dealing with it by being kind and helpful and polite and floundering around looking for a purpose, but everyone keeps telling him to get over himself and focus on Moiraine's feelings, which is exactly the wrong way to treat him if they think he's dying. He is handling the situation so much better that Moiraine really doesn't look good, and her effort to drive him away was among the worst possible things she could have done to him, and she knows that! Given her mental state it is understandable, but I'm not sure the writers understand what they've done.

    Absent any other purpose, Lan should revert back to 'fight the dark one any way I can.' His book backstory is show canon, if there's one man who doesn't need to soul search it's Lan. I'm okay with them thinking he might be Darkfriend, there is precedent for great heroes secretly being dark, Malkier fell because of one.

    The other option is that she has been shielded and doesn't know it, but if being shielded while the bond was masked snuffed it, then Aes Sedai would know that, and it would remove basically all the melodramatic punch in how they are acting once that's revealed.

    Nice touch- Moiraine's writing isn't English, so either she's writing in cipher or the script the characters use isn't earth language.

    I thought they were going to skip ahead to Mat's book 3 plot, but it appears not, we're still dealing with the dagger and Mat's arc appears to be learning to be reliable/finding a purpose. If his arc is overcoming 'leaves when under pressure' that leaves us with not a lot of time for him to do things. If WOT gets five seasons, he will have spent the first two not doing very much. Also, he has a pre-established motivation in Season 1 of caring for his sisters, if he's freed of other commitments, he should want to go home and take care of them,which makes it strange that he's okay with going to Cairhien and gambling instead of rushing home.

    I feel like it's a missed opportunity for Ryma not to be red ajah, it would subvert colour coded evilness. The staging was a bit clumsy, but it's a good scene.

    I honestly thought Lanfear was going to heal Aldrin rather than kill him. It would cost her nothing and be a casually effortless way of winning loyalty. Suppose I don't know her very well.

    Rand's story is the strongest after Egwene's, but a lot of things are up in the air, and they don't have much time left. They're still juggling chainsaws, but eventually they'll have to put them down. We'll see.


  20. - Top - End - #80
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Wheel of Time S2

    Sexualizing damane directly is very heavily frowned on by Seanchan. But the rapturous feeling Sul'dam experience when they are "complete" with one is pretty consistent subtext.

    I'm very interested in Moiraine's plot and how that gets resolved.

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Didn't come across that way to me.
    She mentions early in the prison cell/kennel cell encounter before Egwene tries her first futile attack that she prefers that sul'dam and damane be friends. I got the idea from that opening that she had worked with damane before.
    The books are ambiguous about this. Suroth believes she is one of the most talented sul'dam, but WoT Companion suggests Suroth overestimated her by quite a bit and isn't a reliable narrator on that subject.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  21. - Top - End - #81
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Toledo, Ohio
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Wheel of Time S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    [spoiler=books]

    Spoiler: Episode 6
    Show

    Does she know she can lie now, assuming that's the same? I'm thinking back to 'we were never equals', because it becomes important whether that was a deliberate lie, an accidental lie, or something she truly believes. If she believes it, that means Lan dedicated himself for twenty years to someone that didn't respect him as an equal and never did, which is a rather grim take, because his dedication was based on something that wasn't true. She could have just been saying that to drive him away, but then that would mean she knows she can lie. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be asking these questions or not.


    You're missing a major possibility here.

    Spoiler
    Show
    "We were never equals" can mean "I was never good enough for you" as well as the "You were never good enough for me" message that Lan took it as. This would be a textbook case of deception without violating the Oath against lying.

  22. - Top - End - #82
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2013

    Default Re: Wheel of Time S2

    Spoiler
    Show
    Good point. It still means she intentionally hurt a man who is at very high risk of suicide, though.


    I'm still undecided as to whether they know what they're doing or not.

  23. - Top - End - #83
    Titan in the Playground
     
    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Wheel of Time S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    Spoiler: books
    Show
    I doubt Renna is inexperienced, they wouldn't give Egwene to just any sul'dam.
    Makes sense, based on my limited understanding.
    Spoiler: Episode 6
    Show
    Confirmed that Moiraine at least thinks she has been stilled. Which leaves me with interesting questions.
    I think she has said on screen "He cut me off" and that to me means she's shielded by someone very powerful. She mentions on screen more than once that the Forsaken are incredibly powerful. To break the shield she needs another kind of help. She's been banished (per season 1) so she can't go back to the tower and ask the Amerlin to convene a large enough circle to break the shield. (Recall how many Aes Sedai it took to capture and then still Logaine). By supporting and defending Rand, the Dragon Reborn, Moiraine is somewhat hoist on her own petard.

    Spoiler
    Show
    Lan and Moiraine's plot seems to be going a bit darker than the author intended. We have established in show canon through Logain and Steppin that the bond being broken and being stilled/gentled both result in eventually fatal depression. Steppin held on for a while because he had a purpose (bring the ring to the tower) and then immediately cracked once that was done.

    Moiraine is holding on by clinging to her purpose of protecting/managing Rand, and lashing out pointlessly at everyone else.
    {snip} He is handling the situation so much better that Moiraine really doesn't look good, and her effort to drive him away was among the worst possible things she could have done to him, and she knows that!
    Her course of action seems internally consistent with how she's been on screen since Ep 1 Season 1.
    Spoiler: My take on Moiraine's driving others away
    Show

    She is self confident, driven, and condescending to pretty much every one other than Siuan.
    She is, in my view, sacrificing herself in order to achieve a higher purpose ~ bringing the Dragon Reborn back to fight the Dark One ~ which is very dangerous for her and for those around her. She's driving Lan away in an attempt to protect him from herself.

    She is at the poker table, the stakes are high, and she's gone All In on Rand al'Thor.


    Spoiler: About the Aes Sedai and Moiraine's shielding
    Show
    The other option is that she has been shielded and doesn't know it, but if being shielded while the bond was masked snuffed it, then Aes Sedai would know that, and it would remove basically all the melodramatic punch in how they are acting once that's revealed.
    The other Aes Sedai at the White Tower aren't (in general) aware of what she's doing, and are thus not in a place to help her. Again, the banishment in Season 1 underwrites her problem there. The Browns she took refuge with would probably help her more but she's deliberately remaining aloof because (1) that's who she is and (2) she does not want to reveal her own support of the Dragon Reborn against Aes Sedai policy and (3) her goal in any case was to gather intelligence and try to come up with a plan ... which she eventualy does.

    Spoiler: Lanfear and Aldrin
    Show
    I honestly thought Lanfear was going to heal Aldrin rather than kill him. It would cost her nothing and be a casually effortless way of winning loyalty. Suppose I don't know her very well.
    I think that the point was twofold:
    Spoiler: here's my estimate
    Show
    demonstrate Lanfear's depth of cruelty and free Liandrin to go out in the world and do stuff now that he's dead.

    Rand's story is the strongest after Egwene's, but a lot of things are up in the air, and they don't have much time left.
    It sucks harder than a vacuum on a vinyl couch that there are only 8 episodes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    Spoiler
    Show
    "We were never equals" can mean "I was never good enough for you" as well as the "You were never good enough for me" message that Lan took it as. This would be a textbook case of deception without violating the Oath against lying.
    Yep, that's what I arrived at. She left the closing thought unspoken because, well, that's who she is. Supporting, on screen, evidence for this is how she
    Spoiler: The cutting off at the knees
    Show
    thoroughly puts down her sister near the end of Ep 6 with the "no, you are not in charge of house Damondred, I am Father's heir since I am the eldest, and Cairhien law backs me on this" or words to that effect.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2023-09-25 at 07:30 AM.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
    Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society

  24. - Top - End - #84
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Wheel of Time S2

    The show has cut-down on the "erotic subtext" in general (and probably for the best).

    I think in the books, power and sex and gender and authority were all mixed together to an interesting but sometimes uncomfortable degree. The White Tower used sexuality and forced nudity a lot in their pecking order, and with the Warders; and that whole issue with Mat and a the queen, and Lanfear and Rand, and Perrin and his wife; and "men have to take power while women have to surrender to power" in general.

    I'm actually not sure if "erotic subtext" is an allowed topic here, so I'm just glad the show decided to get rid of most of it.

  25. - Top - End - #85
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Wheel of Time S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    It still means she intentionally hurt a man who is at very high risk of suicide, though.
    Is he? It's been months. Stepin succumbed in weeks. Alanna may have been somewhat precious with him, but Moiraine had no reason to believe he was that fragile still.

    She's behaving jerkishly, no question, but I covered that previously.

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Makes sense, based on my limited understanding.
    Spoiler: Episode 6
    Show
    Confirmed that Moiraine at least thinks she has been stilled. Which leaves me with interesting questions.
    I think she has said on screen "He cut me off" and that to me means she's shielded by someone very powerful. She mentions on screen more than once that the Forsaken are incredibly powerful. To break the shield she needs another kind of help. She's been banished (per season 1) so she can't go back to the tower and ask the Amerlin to convene a large enough circle to break the shield. (Recall how many Aes Sedai it took to capture and then still Logaine). By supporting and defending Rand, the Dragon Reborn, Moiraine is somewhat hoist on her own petard.
    It's worse than that - if it's indeed a shied as seems likely, she'd have no way of knowing one is there. She can't see the weaves (they may even be inverted, it's Isshy after all), there's no dude channeler around to tell her about them, and what she's experiencing would be largely in line with the little the Tower knows about stilled women, i.e. that they know Saidar is there but can't reach it.

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Spoiler: My take on Moiraine's driving others away
    Show

    She is self confident, driven, and condescending to pretty much every one other than Siuan.
    She is, in my view, sacrificing herself in order to achieve a higher purpose ~ bringing the Dragon Reborn back to fight the Dark One ~ which is very dangerous for her and for those around her. She's driving Lan away in an attempt to protect him from herself.

    She is at the poker table, the stakes are high, and she's gone All In on Rand al'Thor.
    Exactly. It's the same purpose that drives the two who get actually stilled in the books.

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Spoiler: About the Aes Sedai and Moiraine's shielding
    Show
    The other option is that she has been shielded and doesn't know it, but if being shielded while the bond was masked snuffed it, then Aes Sedai would know that, and it would remove basically all the melodramatic punch in how they are acting once that's revealed.
    The other Aes Sedai at the White Tower aren't (in general) aware of what she's doing, and are thus not in a place to help her. Again, the banishment in Season 1 underwrites her problem there. The Browns she took refuge with would probably help her more but she's deliberately remaining aloof because (1) that's who she is and (2) she does not want to reveal her own support of the Dragon Reborn against Aes Sedai policy and (3) her goal in any case was to gather intelligence and try to come up with a plan ... which she eventualy does.
    You're forgetting (4) - she has no idea who isn't Black Ajah except Siuan and therefore isn't trusting any sister with a shred more information than necessary. Verin sussed out that she and Lan found the Dragon because, well, because she's Verin and therefore one of the only Aes Sedai in the entire tower with more than two brain cells to rub together while staying alive to do so - but the scene with Alanna and Lan proves that Alanna had no idea. Whether Adeleas knows is up in the air but I'm doubtful.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  26. - Top - End - #86
    Titan in the Playground
     
    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Wheel of Time S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    You're forgetting (4) - she has no idea who isn't Black Ajah except Siuan and therefore isn't trusting any sister with a shred more information than necessary.
    Verin sussed out that she and Lan found the Dragon because, well, because she's Verin and therefore one of the only Aes Sedai in the entire tower with more than two brain cells to rub together while staying alive to do so - but the scene with Alanna and Lan proves that Alanna had no idea. Whether Adeleas knows is up in the air but I'm doubtful.
    Agreed on all points, good call. It seemed to me that Adeleas was lusting a bit too hard toward Lan.
    It struck me as somewhat out of place or forced.
    (I guess it was written in for comedic intent, or to add a light-hearted element to some pretty grim scenes of Moiraine-in-Exile.)
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2023-09-25 at 11:22 AM.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
    Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society

  27. - Top - End - #87
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Wheel of Time S2

    The Adeleas scenes are in all probability intended to flesh her out for
    Spoiler: Book 8, Path of Daggers
    Show
    her murder later to have more pathos. They even set up the crimsonthorn root in the show.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  28. - Top - End - #88
    Titan in the Playground
     
    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Wheel of Time S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    The Adeleas scenes are in all probability intended to flesh her out for
    Spoiler: Book 8, Path of Daggers
    Show
    her murder later to have more pathos. They even set up the crimsonthorn root in the show.
    Ah, yes, Liandrin and Nynaeve bring that up during that healing scene, as does Nynaeve's dad in the arches first sequence.
    Good catch.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2023-09-25 at 01:21 PM.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
    Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society

  29. - Top - End - #89
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Wheel of Time S2

    Quote Originally Posted by Murk View Post
    The show has cut-down on the "erotic subtext" in general (and probably for the best).

    I think in the books, power and sex and gender and authority were all mixed together to an interesting but sometimes uncomfortable degree. The White Tower used sexuality and forced nudity a lot in their pecking order, and with the Warders; and that whole issue with Mat and a the queen, and Lanfear and Rand, and Perrin and his wife; and "men have to take power while women have to surrender to power" in general.

    I'm actually not sure if "erotic subtext" is an allowed topic here, so I'm just glad the show decided to get rid of most of it.
    Funnily enough, I just last week learned about an old legend that made me reconsider my feelings towards the Amyrlin ceremony where everyone had to prove they were a woman. Apparently it was long believed (for about 400 years!) that a female Pope had managed to get elected, was discovered a couple of years in, and promptly died. There was then an additional ceremony added to the Popeing (Popeification?) which forced the cardinals to confirm the new Pope's gender. Total poppycock apparently, but it's a fun story and I can see why it stuck around so long.

    Jordan knowing that pseudo-historical detail and punching it to 11 for the Aes Sedai is so him that I have to applaud.

  30. - Top - End - #90
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2013

    Default Re: Wheel of Time S2

    Spoiler: Episode 6
    Show


    When Moiraine is writing to Siuan, one of her failed letters is translated in subtitles as 'I've been stilled'. She's not likely to be lying to Siuan, so Moiraine at least believes she has been stilled. The show has made the distinction between shielding and stilling with Logain. If it was just a matter of writing to the tower, she could do that.

    Is he? It's been months. Stepin succumbed in weeks. Alanna may have been somewhat precious with him, but Moiraine had no reason to believe he was that fragile still.
    Why not? Moiraine still wants to kill herself, as shown in her conversation with Logain (if she didn't personally want to do it, she wouldn't have been able to say that everyone who is stilled wants to die)

    The show is doing something rather strange, in that Moiraine and Lan are both supposed to be suffering from magical suicidal depression, but it seems to want us to take Moiraine's condition more seriously than Lan's. Steppin and Loghain set the stage for how they should both be feeling.

    Moiraine is trying to drive Lan away to save him, agreed, but that hits very differently when she has reason to believe he's at very high risk of killing himself, but is still doing it anyway. The way to handle this is actually shown with Steppin earlier 'here is a very important mission that needs doing far away from me', not 'you're useless, go away.'

    If it turns out they are not suffering from stilling/broken bonding, then that undercuts their whole season 2 plots, because then they're both just massive drama queens who thought they were dying of sadness but were actually just sad.


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •