OOTS #1288 - The Discussion Thread

[Quizatzhaderac]

Truenamer: the most peerless class in the whole game.

Bureaucrat Conrad: you are technically correct, the best kind of correct.

[Metastachydium]

I love how the Order of the Stick seems set to bypass not only the Draketooth Pyramid but also Kraagor's Gate.

Technically, they also bypassed the Azure City defenses, since they were brought to the throne room directly without having to fight their way through the walls, the army, the other walls, the clergy, the Guard and the Ghost Martyrs.

[Peelee]

Bureaucrat Conrad: you are technically correct, the best kind of correct.

Sweet reawakenin' of me, a Jamaican-in!

[Faldrath]

Technically, they also bypassed the Azure City defenses, since they were brought to the throne room directly without having to fight their way through the walls, the army, the other walls, the clergy, the Guard and the Ghost Martyrs.

Technically technically, they also bypassed most of the Dungeon of Dorukan defenses, since they mostly fought Team Evil's minions, not the stuff Dorukan had prepared (most importantly, Dorukan himself).

[Somniloquist]

And they didn't even engage with Lirian's gate at all!

[Precure]

Technically technically, they also bypassed most of the Dungeon of Dorukan defenses, since they mostly fought Team Evil's minions, not the stuff Dorukan had prepared (most importantly, Dorukan himself).

And they bypassed most of the dungeon itself thanks to Celia and Goblin Teenagers' help.

[KorvinStarmast]

And they bypassed most of the dungeon itself thanks to Celia and Goblin Teenagers' help.

Ya beat me to it.
It's almost like Rich established a pattern ... although DStP and Utterly Dwarfed seem to have been required grinds.

[Felius]

I'm kind of interested to see what it does to Team Evil when they come through.

Given Xykon, probably sheer concentrated power, liberal sacrifice of minions, and likely a bit of "lateral thinking counters" (flight for example I believe is one of the best counters against Rust Monsters, although the room might be made to make that more difficult). He's incredibly evil, impulsive, and often doesn't come as the sharpest tool in the shed, but he is not actually incompetent, as our heroes discovered more than once.

Yup, this is just Rich having fun with the expectations of most D+D players. If any DM ran a dungeon like this, their players would revolt...this is SO unfair. ;)

That said, I'm totally in on this, I love this idea.

A DM pulls this dungeon, the players are fully justified in going full "We are going to go just as meta too", specially if they aren't in a strict time limit. Set up in the entrance in a (siege) camp with enough hirelings and allies to stop anything from coming out. Start digging around the dungeon, identifying the whole thing from the outside, to whatever limit the creator decided to make their protections, magical or otherwise. Make liberal use of scrying and other divinations to acquire as much information as it's physically possible before ever stepping closer. Start throwing expendable critters and minions at the dungeon, according to your budget and alignment (sheep or goats are pretty cheap, and only the more saintly characters will object strongly enough to matter, but if you are evil, enslaved peasants/goblins will do even better. If you are that saintly, animated objects are probably your best option to start with, if more expensive). Second phase, room by room with simulacrums or other semi-expendable dudes, with the most cheese you can possibly do. If the dungeon is not set for it, and you have a way to protect against it, try to suffocate everything inside first in any of a myriad of (magical and non-magical) ways, from setting bonfires and driving smoke (and CO2) in, to chemical stuff, to whatever appropriate magic you have for it. Apply whatever other in-universe cheese you can think of. Then, after the simulacrums do their thing, then you might consider going yourself if you really must, and even then, full paranoia and caution still applies. And make sure your characters (and everything else on your side that you can control) is fully min-maxed too, and likely min-maxed with the assumption they can have a full team of similarly competent people as backup.

Is that a nightmare to run or to plan, probably annoying and boring for nearly everyone, and would lead to the game imploding in real life? Yes. But it is essentially the counterpart to "What if the creator of the dungeon was a highly paranoid bastard who was absolutely against anyone managing to go through it, ideally seeing whoever tried permanently dead?": "What if the PCs were actually high level paranoid professional dungeon explorers who made that their careers and really wanted to do their jobs with the minimum possible risk to themselves?". If one side decides to play cute, the other is perfectly justified to reply in kind if they don't want to just leave the game because of it.

it was designed with the assumption that the party had hirelings who they could have stick their heads into the 'this kills you instantly' traps

Poor Nodwick.

[bunsen_h]

But since it literaly pops up a portal and a magic announcement to the party telling them they have found what they seek, and it lies beyond the portal, and walking through the portal clearly requires an action beyond simply exploring the corridors behind the doors, I think the Modron will declare "You've found the object of your search. The terms are complete". And then skedaddle.

I'm not seeing anything in Serini's messages telling them that they have found what they seek..?

Since we're told how the traps are supposed to work, chances are the traps will not work as expected.

They could simply bruteforce it. But my guess is that V is the weakness here, since they are spied continuously by the infernals, and they will use this information to interfere in some way.

At this point, I'd expect the Order to be trying to anticipate what will happen when Team Evil encounters the various elements of this final dungeon.

A gazebo!

Maybe. I don't know if any of Team Evil have axes, but Xykon definitely has fire spells.

That would make the umbrella radiate darkness. I've always felt that Rich was abusing the line, "If darkness is cast on a small object that is then placed inside or under a lightproof covering, the spell’s effect is blocked until the covering is removed."

To be fair, the darkness spell could be on the handle and achieve the same effect.

The darkness projects downwards from the underside of the umbrella, with a very slight spread, like a truncated cone. The region is always symmetrical relative to the ground, even when the umbrella is tilted. I'm not sure how to get that kind of directional focus. One could achieve it with a bunch of little anti-lights that hang from the spots where the umbrella's struts are attached to the fabric, so they always point downwards. Imagine a bell with a clapper, with Darkness cast on the clapper. The darkness would radiate in all directions from the clapper, but the opaque bell would block the effect in all directions except the opening. If the bell is suspended so that it can hang freely, gravity would pull it, and the darkness would always be projected downwards except if the setup is yanked sideways and the bell tilts.

[WalterTheMighty]

There's a Discord??? Invite me

For some reason, I got pinged on the Discord because a new comic was up, and the discussion thread already existed, but I wasn't able to access the comic. When I went to 1288, I just got the "the author doesn't post comics ahead of time page" and I had to visit the MitD thread before the comic finally showed up.

[Elanfanforlife]

There's a Discord??? Invite me

https://discord.gg/23scZFXR
It's specifically for the subreddit, and it's not very active, but it does exist.

[Metastachydium]

A gazebo!

But only if it's white.

[Peelee]

But only if it's white.

I see how it is.

[brian 333]

I see how it is.

DM: As your party ventures deeper into the forest you enter an idyllic glade blanketed in wildflowers, with slanting sunbeams swaying in time with the trees in the mid-morning breeze. In the center of the glade stands a white gazebo.

Player 1: I attack. Do we roll initiative?

[gbaji]

I'm not seeing anything in Serini's messages telling them that they have found what they seek..?

Aside from "Congratulations on completing the first stage of Kraagor's tomb"?

That was only one half of the reasoning I was using. The other is that Redcloak specifically said they wanted to "search the dungeons behind the doors in this canyon".

This is a dungeon behind a portal inside one of those dungeons. The Modron, being a creature of pure law, could be extremely literal here and not accompany them for that reason alone (behind a portal, not a door; Entered from a dungeon, not the canyon). I also think it matches the spirit of the request as well. Redcloak himself comments that while he wanted to use the gate to bring something in to help them fight off boss level monsters guarding the gate, he's now decided to use it just to figure out where the gate is in the first place.

Which suggests that, no, the Modron will not be there to help TE fight the monsters defending the gate.

The darkness projects downwards from the underside of the umbrella, with a very slight spread, like a truncated cone. The region is always symmetrical relative to the ground, even when the umbrella is tilted. I'm not sure how to get that kind of directional focus. One could achieve it with a bunch of little anti-lights that hang from the spots where the umbrella's struts are attached to the fabric, so they always point downwards. Imagine a bell with a clapper, with Darkness cast on the clapper. The darkness would radiate in all directions from the clapper, but the opaque bell would block the effect in all directions except the opening. If the bell is suspended so that it can hang freely, gravity would pull it, and the darkness would always be projected downwards except if the setup is yanked sideways and the bell tilts.

Yeah. I think "umbrella with darkness cast on the inside apex" fits the best, with a bit of cartoon/comic physics applied too.

There's also some question as to whether the rust monster would destroy the umbrella. I mean, modern umbrellas are typically made with metal or plastic ribs, but old timey ones would probably be made with wood, right? So basically immune to a rust monster.

Silly point anyway. The MitD will somehow remain in shadows until it's time to be revealed anyway. I'd think this question would be more relevant with regard to Sunny's AMF than the rust monster anyway.

[brian 333]

Aside from "Congratulations on completing the first stage of Kraagor's tomb"?

That was only one half of the reasoning I was using. The other is that Redcloak specifically said they wanted to "search the dungeons behind the doors in this canyon".

This is a dungeon behind a portal inside one of those dungeons. The Modron, being a creature of pure law, could be extremely literal here and not accompany them for that reason alone (behind a portal, not a door; Entered from a dungeon, not the canyon). I also think it matches the spirit of the request as well. Redcloak himself comments that while he wanted to use the gate to bring something in to help them fight off boss level monsters guarding the gate, he's now decided to use it just to figure out where the gate is in the first place.

Which suggests that, no, the Modron will not be there to help TE fight the monsters defending the gate.

Exploring the 'dungeon behind the doors' does not exclude entering the portal because it is behind one of the doors and a part of a dungeon. One would have to demonstrate that it is not behind one of the doors or not a dungeon to invalidate the Quinton's contractual obligation. Nothing in the exact wording of the agreement precludes there being multiple dungeons behind a single door or a singular dungeon behind multiple doors.

The scope of the Quinton's participation is far more important. What is it allowed or required, under the contract, to do?

Wall of Force effectively protects the Order as much as it protects Team Evil. And that's all the Quinton's contract obligates it to do when encountering creatures within the dungeons. Its obligation to keep a map of the rooms does not hurt The Order at all. Once TE finds the Gate, the Quinton's contract is ended. At that point, it returns to its home plane and takes its Minions with it.

Assuming The Order of the Stick & Co. Take up a position in the gate room itself, the Quinton's usefulness vs. the Order to TE is nil.

[Fish]

Nothing in the exact wording of the agreement precludes there being multiple dungeons behind a single door or a singular dungeon behind multiple doors.

Linguist hat on.

It’s the “dungeons behind the doors in this canyon” part that intrigues me. The dual prepositional phrase is ambiguous. It could mean 1) “the dungeons that lie in the canyon, which are behind these doors,” or 2) “the dungeons, which lie behind the doors in this canyon.” It could possibly mean that the doors and dungeons must be in the canyon.

There is a portal. Does the portal lead to a location outside the canyon? It could invalidate the contract if one is going by interpretation 1. “Sorry, the dungeon you are entering is outside the canyon, and I am not contracted to accompany you.”

The second interpretation is a bit trickier. Suppose the dungeon contained doors within it — subdoors, if you will. Surely the Quinlon is not inhibited by those; as long as the subdoor is in the canyon, and what lies beyond the door is a dungeon, it is under the contract. But what if the subdoor leads outside? By definition, that is not a dungeon behind a door; the Quinlon is not obligated to search the entire exterior surface of the world because it lies behind a door in the dungeon. The Quinlon is contracted to search dungeons behind doors, if said doors are in the canyon (according to interpretation 2). Is the Quinlon obligated to search dungeons that lie behind magic portals? Dungeons that lie behind teleport traps? It is not behind a door in the canyon. Its participation does not seem to be mandated, but that hinges (ha!) on whether a magic portal or a teleport trap (or some other conveyance) is a door. That’s up to the legalese.

All this assuming, of course, that the Quinlon really is what it appears to be, and is contained by the behaviors we think it is.

[Tzardok]

Quinton, not Quinlon.

[brian 333]

Dungeons behind the 'doors in this canyon.'

Only the doors must be in the canyon. Where anything else is located is not relevant. The only relevant issue, once entering a door, is whether or not they are in a dungeon. If the portal leads to The Highcloud Peaks or to The Smallwood, then it could be said that they are no longer exploring a dungeon. However, given D&Ds broad interpretation of what constitutes a dungeon, virtually any structure which contains monsters and treasure is a dungeon.

Spoiler: The Deal Redcloak Made:

Show

I would like you to accompany us while we search the dungeons behind the doors in this canyon and assist us in restraining all hostile creatures we encounter within.
(The Quinton asks: What is the object of your search?)
You don't need to know that. All that matters is we want to search every corridor as quickly as possible until we find it, or we've checked them all.
Also, I want you to keep a mental record of which doors we've entered and in what order, and the physical dimensions and orientation of every room we visit.

[Tubercular Ox]

One good strip of the Quinton and Redcloak arguing semantics, that's the shout-out to the forums I want to see.

[Peelee]

One good strip of the Quinton and Redcloak arguing semantics, that's the shout-out to the forums I want to see.

The author largely doesn't read the forums anymore.

[Tubercular Ox]

The author largely doesn't read the forums anymore.

Did the forum become obsessed with semantics after the author stopped reading?

[bunsen_h]

Aside from "Congratulations on completing the first stage of Kraagor's tomb"?

To me, that's very explicitly not "you've found what you seek", but only "you've completed the first part of the journey". Team Evil doesn't know that the setup is multi-part; they think that the Gate is behind one of these doors, and what they seek is the Gate, not anything in between.

[locksmith of lo]

what if they do not find the unspecified object that they are looking for? it seems like there is the possibility that they could not somehow activate the final trap, since it seems to be difficult to find and it needs to meet certain conditions to activate. that would certainly terminate the terms of the contract before they find the next dungeon area.

[Boo600]

“Given Xykon, probably sheer concentrated power, liberal sacrifice of minions, and likely a bit of "lateral thinking counters" (flight for example I believe is one of the best counters against Rust Monsters, although the room might be made to make that more difficult).”

Yeah, the ceiling isn’t that high, and the Rust Monster is a Paragon - it gets an extra feat.

Who here is betting on X-treme jumps?

[No good @ names]

Exploring the 'dungeon behind the doors' does not exclude entering the portal because it is behind one of the doors and a part of a dungeon. One would have to demonstrate that it is not behind one of the doors or not a dungeon to invalidate the Quinton's contractual obligation. Nothing in the exact wording of the agreement precludes there being multiple dungeons behind a single door or a singular dungeon behind multiple doors.

The scope of the Quinton's participation is far more important. What is it allowed or required, under the contract, to do?

Wall of Force effectively protects the Order as much as it protects Team Evil. And that's all the Quinton's contract obligates it to do when encountering creatures within the dungeons. Its obligation to keep a map of the rooms does not hurt The Order at all. Once TE finds the Gate, the Quinton's contract is ended. At that point, it returns to its home plane and takes its Minions with it.

Assuming The Order of the Stick & Co. Take up a position in the gate room itself, the Quinton's usefulness vs. the Order to TE is nil.

Until the being of pure Order and Law comes across the agent of chaos known as Elan, and the trail of pandaemonium left in his wake…

[bunsen_h]

To me, that's very explicitly not "you've found what you seek", but only "you've completed the first part of the journey". Team Evil doesn't know that the setup is multi-part; they think that the Gate is behind one of these doors, and what they seek is the Gate, not anything in between.

Or: "Thank you, heroes! But our Gate is in another dungeon!"

Serini's message is oddly upbeat, considering that the heroes will presumably have just finished (in most cases) killing hundreds of sentient monsters who volunteered to help guard the gate.

Until the being of pure Order and Law comes across the agent of chaos known as Elan, and the trail of pandaemonium left in his wake…

The Quinton will scream in confusion and go home.

[StragaSevera]

I have a strange prediction.

Xykon's current body will be defeated by throwing him into Kraagor's gate.

It is not just a good callback to the start of the comics. It has some things pointing up to it too. Xykon was defeated by grappling, which bypassed all of his HP and resistances. So now he has the magic boots that protect him from this tactics, but - at the climax of the confrontation - it would be revealed that disenchanting monsters made quick work on this boots ;-)

How do I make it an "official" prediction?

[Laurentio III]

How do I make it an "official" prediction?

You just did, but for maximal security there is a thread about predictions.

To me, it seems that this dungeon can be, so far, brute-forced. Team Evil is not going to wait 30 seconds in a room, disenchanters can just remove a couple of bonus but the only artifacts that matter is immune. Rust monster has nothing to take from half the team, and would be killed in a single round.
I get that this is just the start, but a creature like Monster in the Darkness alone could just steamroll this first setting without breaking pace.

[pearl jam]

Or: "Thank you, heroes! But our Gate is in another dungeon!"

Serini's message is oddly upbeat, considering that the heroes will presumably have just finished (in most cases) killing hundreds of sentient monsters who volunteered to help guard the gate..

The upbeat tone is certainly at odds with the fact that they have just accomplished something that Serini was attempting to prevent, but I think your allusion points to the type of message that inspired this one and thus explains the somewhat out of place celebratory feeling.

As for the monsters, I think we've been shown evidence that her attitude toward the monsters now is not reflective of what her attitude was at the time when the dungeon was first built and the message prepared.