OOTS #1288 - The Discussion Thread

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, she was rather naive back then. Though I think she’s been overcompensating for that since.

[Kami2awa]

Hmm re Team Evil...

Xykon's immune to ability drain (undead) so Fumblebees are less of an issue (unless it's ability damage, but Serini says "draining"). Redcloak and Xykon aren't item-dependent other than the Crimson Mantle, which is an artifact and so can't be disenchanted (or reading the Disenchanter description, it might be able to be, but Disenchanters don't like to try to eat artifacts as they are too powerful for them - also it surely has Plot Armour). They have nothing that can be rusted (other than maybe Xykon's crown, which will just annoy him - apparently 3.5e Rust Monsters can "rust" gold!). We don't know what a Blue Poet is, but if it's some kind of Lovecraftian horror then it likely won't affect Xykon badly (immune to mind-affecting things and poison). Is it me, or is this rather horrifying encounter not a big threat for Team Evil?

I'd love to see the Knee-Stealers run off with Xykon's patellae, but again that'll probably just annoy him.

[brian 333]

Or: "Thank you, heroes! But our Gate is in another dungeon!"

Serini's message is oddly upbeat, considering that the heroes will presumably have just finished (in most cases) killing hundreds of sentient monsters who volunteered to help guard the gate.

Serini built the tomb as a challenge to all but the most powerful characters in the OotSworld. She knew that eventually she would die and the tomb would need a new guardian. The gauntlet is designed to force them to prove their worthiness to assume the role.

She had two backup plans: the first being her ability to call upon her old friends to help if her gate was captured by someone unworthy to hold it. (She didn't envision being the sole survivor!) The second being to give all her knowledge to the very long-lived Sunny so she could pass on all Serinni knows when a new dungeonmaster finally comes along.

Also, she's screwing with the adventurers. "You made it this far, but you won't make it to the end!"

[Tzardok]

Hmm re Team Evil...

Xykon's immune to ability drain (undead) so Fumblebees are less of an issue (unless it's ability damage, but Serini says "draining").

Undead are also immune to ability damage to their physical attributes.

[danielxcutter]

I mean, it’s worth remembering this is the first couple of encounters. If getting though this was the only criteria, the bugbears probably would have found the Gate decades ago.

[bunsen_h]

I mean, it’s worth remembering this is the first couple of encounters. If getting though this was the only criteria, the bugbears probably would have found the Gate decades ago.

That would require some individual bugbear to have gone through every dungeon to its end. That's unlikely. They regard the setup as a resource for food and treasure, but they don't have a burning need to "complete" the thing barring somebody's obsessive-compulsive quirk. Some of the monsters are tough enough to challenge Team Evil, and a team of bugbears aren't likely to be anywhere near as powerful as Team Evil.

[brian 333]

That would require some individual bugbear to have gone through every dungeon to its end. That's unlikely. They regard the setup as a resource for food and treasure, but they don't have a burning need to "complete" the thing barring somebody's obsessive-compulsive quirk. Some of the monsters are tough enough to challenge Team Evil, and a team of bugbears aren't likely to be anywhere near as powerful as Team Evil.

They may also be the first line of guardians. Note Oona's reaction to the paladins. If beings come along too powerful to fight, they monitor their progress and discover their intentions. Note Oona's Dolphin Bridge analogy.

I assume if some adventurers came along powerful enough to defeat the bugbears their plan would be to scatter, and the warriors would monitor things from a distance while the non-combatants would set up in a safer location. It was only coincidental that the first to come along had a goblinoid on the team.

The other explanation is that they set up shop and Serini let them stay because they effectively serve the same purpose whether they intend to or not.

[Provengreil]

They may also be the first line of guardians. Note Oona's reaction to the paladins. If beings come along too powerful to fight, they monitor their progress and discover their intentions. Note Oona's Dolphin Bridge analogy.

I assume if some adventurers came along powerful enough to defeat the bugbears their plan would be to scatter, and the warriors would monitor things from a distance while the non-combatants would set up in a safer location. It was only coincidental that the first to come along had a goblinoid on the team.

The other explanation is that they set up shop and Serini let them stay because they effectively serve the same purpose whether they intend to or not.

I find the latter far more likely, given Oona's open cooperation with Team Evil. If anything, I expect Serini doesn't want them there but lacks the proper ability to kick them all out. If she dies or leaves they'll slowly but surely grind away the dungeon without her restocking everything. I'd actually be pretty surprised if she was OK with them eating the monsters from the dungeons in the first place, seeing how she interacts with them all.

[Psepha]

Hmm. Considering Serini's knowledge of monsters I wonder if she could recognise what the MITD is... it seems like she knows about tons of different monsters at this point (although it might just be that she learned about the ones she specifically has).

And heck, maybe she'll even be part of finally convincing MITD to break away from Team Evil - if MITD sees how she treats Sunny, or just from her general experience in recruiting monsters to the cause, she might be really helpful there. Especially since Mr Stiffly will be there with her!

[ZhonLord]

I find the latter far more likely, given Oona's open cooperation with Team Evil. If anything, I expect Serini doesn't want them there but lacks the proper ability to kick them all out. If she dies or leaves they'll slowly but surely grind away the dungeon without her restocking everything. I'd actually be pretty surprised if she was OK with them eating the monsters from the dungeons in the first place, seeing how she interacts with them all.

You forget how Oona attacked O-Chul and Lien with zero warning. It's reasonable to think the bugbears would stop non-goblinoids who try to enter the tomb, since Monster Hollow is vital to their survival. They only accepted xykon because he was with Redcloak. I doubt Serini has issue with their presence.

Besides, if the creatures in the Tomb are all sapient enough to agree to defending the Gate, then they have the ability to learn from their fights. And conflict makes for stronger souls, which in this case benefits Fenris. if anything, Serini is effectively training her monsters by having them clash with the bugbears. I seriously doubt the bugbears have successful hunts every time, there's bound to be casualties on both sides of a Hollow Hunt.

[KorvinStarmast]

I mean, it’s worth remembering this is the first couple of encounters. If getting though this was the only criteria, the bugbears probably would have found the Gate decades ago.

But if they found it, what would they do with it? They can't cast a ritual.

And heck, maybe she'll even be part of finally convincing MITD to break away from Team Evil - if MITD sees how she treats Sunny, or just from her general experience in recruiting monsters to the cause, she might be really helpful there. Especially since Mr Stiffly will be there with her!

Plausible, but I don't think I'll bet any centavos on that.

[Tubercular Ox]

Hmm. Considering Serini's knowledge of monsters I wonder if she could recognise what the MITD is... it seems like she knows about tons of different monsters at this point (although it might just be that she learned about the ones she specifically has).

And heck, maybe she'll even be part of finally convincing MITD to break away from Team Evil - if MITD sees how she treats Sunny, or just from her general experience in recruiting monsters to the cause, she might be really helpful there. Especially since Mr Stiffly will be there with her!

So if the Monster in the Dark is connected to the Snarl, then Redcloak knows what it is from the cloak, Xykon knows what it is from Serini's diary, and Serini knows what it is from adventures she had.

But they don't have to know exactly what it is, they just have to have met something similar. Or maybe a relationship to the Snarl marks a creature in a recognizable way and they know the connection but not the creature.

[danielxcutter]

But if they found it, what would they do with it? They can't cast a ritual.

That was mostly just a point about how bad the security would be in that situation, mixed with a lot of hyperbole.

[Quizatzhaderac]

DM: As your party ventures deeper into the forest you enter an idyllic glade blanketed in wildflowers, with slanting sunbeams swaying in time with the trees in the mid-morning breeze. In the center of the glade stands a white gazebo.

Player 1: I attack. Do we roll initiative?

Pro-tip for DM trolling: best to call for the inactive roll yourself because surely the players will be competing to see you gets the best seat in the gazebo.

In the gazebo you see nothing: no love, kindness, mercy, or even acknowledgement that your existence is worthy.

Beside the gazebo you see it's penumbra companion; a shadowy un-thing the proves the power and reach of the light is limited.

Did the forum become obsessed with semantics after the author stopped reading?

Weren't we never not obsessed with semantics?

[Metastachydium]

In the gazebo you see nothing: no love, kindness, mercy, or even acknowledgement that your existence is worthy.

Beside the gazebo you see it's penumbra companion; a shadowy un-thing the proves the power and reach of the light is limited.

If I had a hat… It would raise on its very own now. This is objectively that good.

Weren't we never not obsessed with semantics?

I wouldn't say we weren't ever not.

[Fish]

They may also be the first line of guardians.

I should just point out here that the only reason we know anything about the bugbear community is through Oona. We have no idea if what she says about their purpose or their lifestyle is true. We also don’t have evidence (that I’m aware of) that anything she says is false.

As far as we know, or don’t know, Oona could be an agent of Serini, or an impersonation of Sabine; or the bugbears could simply have an agenda of their own that doesn’t involve helping Team Evil.

[DavidSh]

In the gazebo you see nothing: no love, kindness, mercy, or even acknowledgement that your existence is worthy.

Beside the gazebo you see it's penumbra companion; a shadowy un-thing the proves the power and reach of the light is limited.

If I hadn't had prior real-life experience with gazebos, I wonder what I would imagine a gazebo to be. An eye-monster? Some kind of chimera involving a gazelle?

[bunsen_h]

If I hadn't had prior real-life experience with gazebos, I wonder what I would imagine a gazebo to be. An eye-monster? Some kind of chimera involving a gazelle?

There are several imaginings of gaze monsters out there, including something like Sunny.

In the gazebo you see nothing: no love, kindness, mercy, or even acknowledgement that your existence is worthy.

Beside the gazebo you see it's penumbra companion; a shadowy un-thing the proves the power and reach of the light is limited.

Heh.

[gbaji]

Dungeons behind the 'doors in this canyon.'

Only the doors must be in the canyon. Where anything else is located is not relevant. The only relevant issue, once entering a door, is whether or not they are in a dungeon. If the portal leads to The Highcloud Peaks or to The Smallwood, then it could be said that they are no longer exploring a dungeon. However, given D&Ds broad interpretation of what constitutes a dungeon, virtually any structure which contains monsters and treasure is a dungeon.

The full statement was "I would like you to accompany us while we search the dungeons behind the doors in this canyon"

The key point is not only that something must be a dungeon, but that it must be a dungeon which is behind the doors in this canyon. A Dungeon that is reached by traveling through a magic portal is *not* behind a door in the canyon.

I would argue that the moment they are entering a completely different dungeon, and one which is not entered by passing through one of the doors in the canyon, the Quinton is no longer obligated to accompany them.

We can argue, for example, that the crossovers (if we assume the Quinton is aware of them) merely transports one to another part of the same dungeon. Teleportation traps exist in dungeons, right? So that doesn't invalidate the search.

But in this case we have a special portal, that does not exist in every dungeon as part of its design, which is clearly stated by Serini as being a reward for succeeding at something (and is presumably what TE is asking the Quinton to search for), but most importantly she says this:

"But now the greatest challenge awaits you. The biggest, toughest, most unfair dungeon of them all!"

This is unambiguously traveling to a new dungeon, not just another part of the one they are already in. This dungeon's entrance is *not* a door in the canyon. Thus, the Quinton will not accompany them into this dungeon. It literally does not match the requirements Redcloak set when asking for its help.

Hmm re Team Evil...

Xykon's immune to ability drain (undead) so Fumblebees are less of an issue (unless it's ability damage, but Serini says "draining"). Redcloak and Xykon aren't item-dependent other than the Crimson Mantle, which is an artifact and so can't be disenchanted (or reading the Disenchanter description, it might be able to be, but Disenchanters don't like to try to eat artifacts as they are too powerful for them - also it surely has Plot Armour). They have nothing that can be rusted (other than maybe Xykon's crown, which will just annoy him - apparently 3.5e Rust Monsters can "rust" gold!). We don't know what a Blue Poet is, but if it's some kind of Lovecraftian horror then it likely won't affect Xykon badly (immune to mind-affecting things and poison). Is it me, or is this rather horrifying encounter not a big threat for Team Evil?

I'd love to see the Knee-Stealers run off with Xykon's patellae, but again that'll probably just annoy him.

I think TE is still somewhat vulnerable to the disenchanters and rust monster. Just not as much as a melee focused group would be. Oona presumbly has weapons and items that are vulnerable to both. We can also assume that both Redcloak and Xykon have gathered up and are using various enchanted rings, and boots, and necklaces, and whatever other stuff folks wear as magic items all the time. Seems pretty unlikely that neither of them have any +X <whatevers> of protection on them, or robes of <whatever>, or rings of <whatever>, or boots of <whatever>. At the level we're talking about, even if not explicitly mentioned, it's reasonably safe to assume they have a number of "regular magic items" on them.

They may not be as dependent on these items as melee characters are (again though, Oona likely is), they're still going to be inconvenienced and it will somewhat reduce their overall capability as a result. Xykon's newly acquired boots are certainly in jeaporady, at least. As is his ring of fire immunity. Likely there are lots of other items we just haven't been told about. I envison all of them complaining bitterly as these "totally unfair!" monsters poof their items. Oona's mace will likely go poof as well.

[brian 333]

The door must be in the canyon. What lies beyond need not be. Entering another dungeon after the first still leaves one behind the door which is in the canyon.

The only out is to either find the object of the search or to quit searching dungeons behind the doors and do something else.

I enter a door in the canyon and explore dungeon 1. I discover access to another dungeon and enter that access. Since I am still exploring dungeons behind the door in the canyon I have not voided the agreement, and the Quinton has to keep a map of where we went. Now I leave the dungeon and explore the polar ice cap looking for 'the real' dungeon. The Quinton does not have to accompany me.

[gbaji]

The door must be in the canyon. What lies beyond need not be. Entering another dungeon after the first still leaves one behind the door which is in the canyon.

Not if the method to enter that dungeon requires something other than walking through a door in the canyon.

The only out is to either find the object of the search or to quit searching dungeons behind the doors and do something else.

Except that Redcloak very specifically did not name the object of their search. Had he done so, and stated something like "search the dungeons behind these doors and all locations accessable within from those dungeons until we find the Gate we're looking for", that would be another issue. But he literally just said to "search the dungeons behind the doors in this canyon". Which means that the moment TE attempts to enter a dungeon accessible via any means other the passing through a door in the canyon, the Quinton will not follow.

It's entirely possible that, had he tried to make such an open ended contract without specifying what he was searching for, the Quinton would have refused. Because "search all the dungeons behind these doors, and all locations which may be reached by passing through these dungeons", could potentially be an infinite number of locations. Heck. It's likely the Quinton would have refused even if Redcloak had named what they were looking for. It's too open.

I enter a door in the canyon and explore dungeon 1. I discover access to another dungeon and enter that access. Since I am still exploring dungeons behind the door in the canyon I have not voided the agreement, and the Quinton has to keep a map of where we went. Now I leave the dungeon and explore the polar ice cap looking for 'the real' dungeon. The Quinton does not have to accompany me.

Except that the act of traveling through that "access to another dungeon" is "leaving" the current one. You just left by another exit, right? At that moment, the Quinton is no more required to continue assisting them and mapping for them, as he is for any other dungeon that is accessed by "leaving" one of the dungeons behind the doors in the canyon. The Quinton will only explore dungeons with them if those dungeons are entered by passing through one of the doors in the canyon. That's was quite clearly stated in the agreement.

Any dungeon, entered via any other means, is not within the terms of the agreement.

Again. The key point here is that this portal doesn't just take them to another part of the dungeon they are in, but to a completely different dungeon. That is clearly stated in the Serini-recording, and the Quinton will know this. At which point, they are "leaving" the dungeon they are currently exploring and entering another, but not one that lies "behind the doors in the canyon". Thus, the Quinton will not follow or assist them.

And that's just from a "how would a creature of law interpret this contract" pov. But the same conclusion is arrived at from a "what makes the story work" pov as well. Having the Quinton with them will trivialize the traps and monsters in the Final Dungeon. Ergo, the Quinton will not be with TE in the Final Dungeon. In fact, I'd argue that Rich wrote the dialogue between Redcloak and the Quinton specifically to ensure that the contract would not include it being with TE when they go through the portal into the Final Dungeon. So there's that too.

[brian 333]

I disagree with your analysis.

The contract specified plural dungeons behind the doors in the canyon. It made no mention of the dungeons being in the canyon, and it made no mention of how many dungeons might be accessed via a single door.

Door in canyon? Check.
In a dungeon accessed via one of those doors? Check.

Think of this:

Assume the extra dimensional stone puts a corridor into a para-elemental plane. Your reasoning is that that violates the contract and the Quinton is no longer obligated to serve.

Assume a room of of a corridor is accessible only via a door. Entry through said door, not in the canyon, violates the contract and the Quinton is no longer required to serve.

Assume a tunnel long enough to pass beneath the crest of a hill so that the dungeon is no longer within the canyon. Again, by your reasoning, the Quinton is free of any obligation.

We must assume all of these cases do not apply because of the likelihood that all three have already happened.

Therefore, the answer must be something else. Just as in the Wishing Game, lack of specificity is your friend, and the more specific your agreement, the more ways there are to break it.

Fortunately, Redcloak's agreement was very general and subject to very little interpretation. The dungeons must be behind the doors in the canyon, (accessible via entering a door qualifies,) and the Quinton must serve until all of the dungeons have been searched or until they find the object of their search.

[Fish]

I disagree with your analysis.

I do not think your conclusions are sound. The Quinton will stop being helpful if and when Rich decides it does.

It could say, "This magic portal counts as a door, and it is contained within a dungeon I have committed to search. Therefore, I am bound to explore all of its contents."

It could quibble on the definition of dungeon. "This magic portal qualifies as a door under the terms defined by Muddlebrook's Architectural Digest #55, page 42. However, the space beyond this door is not a dungeon, as it lacks 3 of the 11 necessary components that qualify it as a dungeon under common law. See Dungeons, Looting of, paragraph 6, sub-section C."

It could quibble on the definition of door. "This portal is not a qualifying door, hatch, ingress, egress, aperture, jamb, or threshold as established by the Rheingold Field Test for Extraplanar Connectivity. I cannot proceed."

It could quibble on the definition of in the canyon. "We have reached the outer bounds of the canyon as calculated by the water runoff formula found in Blackcliff's Treatise on Geotopology. I can go no further."

Or it could just say, "Ha ha, you fools, you thought I was a real Quinton here to help you?" *stab stab stab*

We just don't know.

[brian 333]

I do not think your conclusions are sound. The Quinton will stop being helpful if and when Rich decides it does.

With this I agree, (though the assertion of Rhinegold's as an authoritative work is questionable given Tharizdun vs. Brightsteel CY113.)

My point, and I think that of the poster with whom I was debating, is not to dictate to The Author, but to speculate about The Author's intent.

[KorvinStarmast]

Or it could just say, "Ha ha, you fools, you thought I was a real Quinton here to help you?" *stab stab stab*

Do Quinton's breath? If not, then Belkar being baleful polymorphed into a Quinton begins to take shape as an end game option.
Yes, I know, the likelihood is staggeringly small, but it would fit the prophecy (no breathing and no birthday). As a quinton he'd eventually have a hankering to head to the Planes of Law (?? LN ??) and thus "not be long for this world" and yet also not dead.

Yes, I know, that's a reach, but you got me thinking.

As I understand it, Quintons (being outsiders) are not born. They are beings of Law who arise from the plane of law itself ...

[brian 333]

I thought they were promoted from the lower ranks when a superior died and left an opening in a giant bureaucratic hierarchy.

[Fish]

My point, and I think that of the poster with whom I was debating, is not to dictate to The Author, but to speculate about The Author's intent.

Given the various ways that the contract could be dissolved on legalese mumbo jumbo, I think the author’s intent can more easily be divined by narrative analysis. We aren’t shown what threats lie in the dungeons themselves, even to the point of the Giant humorously observing how we are deprived of an expensive and exciting battle scene, but we are shown the threats in the Final Dungeon which Team Evil must face. I therefore find it unlikely that the quinton will be present to help Team Evil to bypass these dangers harmlessly.

[Metastachydium]

If not, then Belkar being baleful polymorphed into a Quinton begins to take shape as an end game option.

That's absolutely not how Baleful Polymorph works. It exclusively produces little innocuous Animals and stuff, not high end Outsiders with Wall of Force at-will.

[Fish]

That's absolutely not how Baleful Polymorph works.

Method aside — and forgetting for the moment that Belkar is singularly unlikely to become an embodiment of Law itself — it does make a certain sense if Belkar were to become some kind of being from the Outer Planes by some means. How exactly that might occur, I don’t know. I don’t remember the d20 lore on how (or if) Chaotic Evil souls are transmogrified into demonic entities. Belkar could technically die and become one of those, perhaps.

[Tzardok]

Method aside — and forgetting for the moment that Belkar is singularly unlikely to become an embodiment of Law itself — it does make a certain sense if Belkar were to become some kind of being from the Outer Planes by some means. How exactly that might occur, I don’t know. I don’t remember the d20 lore on how (or if) Chaotic Evil souls are transmogrified into demonic entities. Belkar could technically die and become one of those, perhaps.

Any soul that enters the Abyss (and isn't eaten or spent by something more terrible) evolves over short or long into one of the lower forms of demon (typically mane, dretch or rutterkin) and participates in the unceasing struggle to become greater and more powerful (or sink and become food), maybe even ascending to demon lord status (as Orcus did).

Of course, Belkar may also end up in Carceri/Tartarus (if he is more evil than chaotic) or in Pandemonium (if he is more chaotic than evil). Souls there may also evolve into local outsiders, but it's a lot less sure than in the Abyss, and the result will be something a lot less fundamental (fundamentally alignened, specifically) than a demon. They are more likely to fuse with the plane itself when transcending their existence.

And of course in OOTS it may work completely differently. After all there wasn't any mention in Roy's afterlife about the possibility of dead souls to become archons.