5e Swashbuckler: Single Class, Single weapon! No M/C and no magic... can it be fun?

[Shadowdagger213]

Just like the title says. I'm currently playing in a low level campaign, "Rime of the Frost Maiden", first time 5e for all players, including the DM (of whom, I taught to play 3.5e over 10 years ago: my Stepson! )

My biggest reason for wanting to stick to my character as-is, is that my Wife, who hadn't played in a very long time but wanted to start again; she started rolling her stats with a d20... and it was allowed! No player has less than 2 natural 20's in their array! So this opens up multiple feat opportunities for all!

I've read so many multiclass ideas, had so many return answers come back as "You should've played an Arcane trickster" and OMG on the Booming Blade builds...

I'm looking for ideas on feats, magic items (to hope for), and strategy. I just want to play the Swashbucker Rogue to the best of his abilities before I try to make him into something he's not.


The Party:
(Hill)Dwarf Fighter - Eldritch Knight
(Mountain)Dwarf Fighter - Rune Knight (They're brothers)
(Protector) Aasimar Paladin - Oath of Vengeance?
(Standard?) Tiefling Rogue - Soulknife

And me:

Wood Elf Rogue Swashbuckler: Level 3, almost 4th so ASI or Feat coming soon

STR: 10
DEX: 20 (18+2)
CON: 20
INT: 14
WIS: 20 (19+1)
CHA: 20

Rapier (Purchased and left behind to be Silvered, so I don't have it yet. Making the best use of Shortsword and Daggers, and Longbow)

Current AC = 17 (Studded Leather +12/DEX +5)

I'm thinking either Sentinel, Fighting Initiate, Piercer or Tough for my 4th level feat.

I've toyed with a 1 level dip into Fighter to grab a Fighting Style (Dueling?), but still want to stay "pure", so Fighting Initiate - Dueling would be my choice instead.

Ranged option - hang back, (hide), Steady Aim, rinse and repeat. Not boring for me at all, only getting one attack/round so guaranteed S/A from 80ft away works fine for me in some instances. Given the environment of this campaign where it's perpetually dark and snowing almost all of the time, I can even hide in the open! (Wood elf- Mask of the Wild)

I'm probably going single weapon moving forward, because within the current system, I can't figure out how to emulate the combat style of a certain Dark Elf Hero that my character has heard about and come to idolize!

Now, if someone can suggest a way to do accomplish the above and still remain a Rogue.... maybe a cross between the above Ranger and a certain other member of his race who is known to wear an eyepatch and a big funny hat!

(If you aren't familiar with the references, I'll clear that up once I get some suggestions!

GITP Forums, make me Stabbier?

[Damon_Tor]

I have a hard time looking at rogue builds focused around melee: why? So you'll have a longbow as your "ranged option" then you'll switch to your rapier... why? What would motivate you to deal the same amount of damage way up close to the dangerous thing?

You're going to need to dual wield. If only to give yourself an excuse to close in and strike from up close.

[solidork]

I have a hard time looking at rogue builds focused around melee: why? So you'll have a longbow as your "ranged option" then you'll switch to your rapier... why? What would motivate you to deal the same amount of damage way up close to the dangerous thing?

Sentinel would be one. Their party is chock full of other melee people so it seems like the ideal setup to get reaction Sneak Attacks with Sentinel.

[J-H]

If I remember correctly, ROTM is pretty light on magic items. I wouldn't plan on anything.

Melee rogues are
1) more fun
2) less boring (more opportunities for shenanigans with items, terrain, etc.)
3) easier to get sneak attack with

I would go with dual wielding, since it gets you another chance to land your sneak attack every round. You have a +10 to initiative already, so you'll likely go first. If you don't want to get into melee right away (so that the fighters and paladins can go in first), take along some ball bearings and caltrops to toss for cheap battlefield control.
Using a feat for the fighting style nets you +5 damage on rounds when you make your off-hand attack. That's actually pretty decent, and if you land your off-hand attack every other round, beats out the Dueling fighting style.

The Dual Wielder feat itself is +1 ac and can simplify weapon-drawing if your table tracks that sort of thing, and if you're swapping back and forth between a bow.

With the party you have, you may have trouble getting next to enemies occasionally. Consider a whip as a ranged dexterity weapon. It's also stylish.

I would look at the Skill Expert type feat (+1 stat, expertise, etc.).

If you go scimitars instead of shortswords, you have slashing weapons and can use the Slasher feat for a free speed debuff once per round. That said, you have a melee-heavy part, so enemies probably won't risk the OAs to run away.

The Sentinel feat (not whip-compatible) lets you get OAs pretty regularly in melee, which gives you a second chance in the round to set off your sneak attack. The disadvantage of this is that it incentivizes enemies to target you, competes with Uncanny Dodge at 5th level, and your AC is going to stay lower than the sword-and-board-and-plate types. Consider talking someone else in the party into getting Sentinel as well.

[CTurbo]

Sure a single class Rogue can be a lot of fun.

For single class Swashbuckler feats, I'd go with these for sure.

Sentinel

Magic Initiate: Find Familiar, Booming Blade, Green Flame Blade

Martial Adept: Riposte and Brace

Fey Touched for Misty Step and Bless


Between Sentinel, Brace, and Riposte, you'll be able to hit really hard off-turn with your reaction using Sneak Attack.

Find Familiar is amazing for anybody, but especially for a sneaky Rogue.

The blade cantrips are awesome on a Swashbuckler. You can walk up, stab with Booming Blade, and then walk away every time.

Misty Step is also amazing for any sneaky character. I really like Bless on Booming Blade Rogues as you REALLY want to hit with your single attack, and it's not like you're doing anything with your concentration.


You're not likely to get higher than that, but if you do, Lucky, Mobile, Observant, or Piercer would be decent picks.

I would NOT take a feat for Dueling. +2 damage per round is not worth it.



If you're interested in Multiclassing, a single level of Divine Soul Sorcerer gets you the blade cantrips, Bless, Guidance, Silvery Barbs, and some extra healing.

I could see merit in taking a few Bard or Warlock levels for tons more utility and other fun things. Swords Bard in particular.

I would 100% either go the Booming Blade route OR dual wield. It's silly not to do one or the other IMO. Usually the Dual Wielder feat isn't worth it, but if you already have 20s everywhere, it's not terrible.

[Willowhelm]

You’ve kind of put so many restrictions in place… is the question just what feats you should take? To what end? Pure damage?

FWIW I would consider the multi class options and reduce the restrictions. The character concept should be paramount, not the game mechanics that get you there.

Eg. With that dex and Wis, a monk dip for unarmored defence (20 ac and both hands free) is attractive. Especially going into melee. I think it still works thematically. I’d go quite far down that path personally.

On the magic front - so many non-magic RP things can be done by taking magic options and reflavouring. Sure, find familiar is a spell but it’s a great beast companion mechanically. Shield is magic but can be reflavoured as a sudden burst of agility to avoid a blow…

What do you want the character to do/be?

Edit: with four stats at 20 the multi class options are so open it makes me sad that they’re not going to some otherwise impossible MAD build. Some gloomstalker ranger would work with the RP I think? I’m really unclear how “swashbuckling” the swashbuckler PC wants to be vs death from the shadows

[Dualight]

I'm slightly surprised no one has suggested racial feats yet.

Elven Accuracy is great for any rogue. Sure, with OP's stats the +1 is forced to go into Intelligence, bur the super-advantage doesn't care which stat you raise with it, just that the attack roll uses a stat that could be raised with the feat.

Wood Elf Magic is also neat, longstrider is a nice little buff to your movement when you expect to need one, and pass without trace is a capability no one else in the party is likely to acquire without multiclassing. The druid cantrip of your choice can be nice, too.

As for getting better at stabbing, specifically, Fighting Initiate is an 'always on' buff to your damage, although it is entirely passive.

If big damage outweighs melee, then Sharpshooter is a no-brainer with your DEX. Tack on Crossbow Expert (or Gunner if you find any firearms) to not get stuck juggling weapons and your primary weapon switches to the longbow.

[Kane0]

You have 20 cha and tons of melee mates, why not inspiring leader?

[H_H_F_F]

Two points here:

Point one:

So, the reason you've seen so many booming blade suggestions, and the reason Magic Initiate is suggested in this thread even after you've specifically asked no magic, is just how perfect of a match booming blade and swashbuckler is.

You already know rogues don't get extra attack, and they really want their bonus action for cunning action - so attack cantrips are great for them. Swashbuckler specifically is designed to get in-and-out of combat: rakish audacity means you want to melee enemies, fancy footwork means you can go in and out of melee while using your cunning action to dash rather than to disengage. So: you get in, you sneak attack, and you get out. That's what swashbuckler does. Booming Blade makes it so that sneak attack does way more damage, and that an enemy that wants to chase you or go for your friends has to take even more damage to do so. Match made in heaven. It's just one feat for a little magic, not going arcane trickster or multiclassing; if you're interested in mechanical efficiency, you might want to reconsider. Otherwise, plenty of suggestions have been made.

Point Two

your dice are broken.

No, for real. Not as a fun thing to say, these dice are straight up off, and you need to throw them away. I know you've probably realized how magnificent your scores are: two nat 20s, one nat 19, one nat 18. I'm ignoring the 18 and 19 for a moment - but remember, that's unlikely too, and would compound on top of he coming calculation.

The odds of getting a nat 20 in 6 rolls is about 26%. It's unlikely, but it'll happen.

The odds of getting 2 or more nat 20s in 6 rolls is 3.27738%. It's incredibly unlikely.

And it happened to all 5 of you, no exceptions. 5/5.

The odds of that? about 0.0000037%.

1 in 26 million or so.

That's not "wow, that's rare!" territory. It's just practically impossible with fair dice, straight up.

Add back the question of the 18/19 (what would be your odds of getting at least 18 in two of these rolls), and the odds of this total mess just eclipsed your odds of winning the Powerball. It'd be more likely for you to win the Powerball with one ticket than it would be for your party to roll the way you did.

No matter how unlikely you think it is that your dice are unfair, I promise you, it's more likely than that. I promise you. At some point, "improbable" just becomes "no".

Throw them away.

[Unoriginal]

A single class Swashbuckler Rogue can be very fun and efficient.

I'm probably going single weapon moving forward, because within the current system, I can't figure out how to emulate the combat style of a certain Dark Elf Hero that my character has heard about and come to idolize!

There is a special option for that in Rime of the Frostmaiden.

[Damon_Tor]

Sentinel would be one. Their party is chock full of other melee people so it seems like the ideal setup to get reaction Sneak Attacks with Sentinel.

Unless I'm missing something, why would sentinel regularly get triggered in this party? Why would an NPC adjacent to the rogue not swing at the rogue? Why would he swing at one of the fighters? Is the paladin planning to use his spell slots on Compelled Duel maybe?

And why be a swashbuckler if your plan is to get into melee and then stay there for OAs? The swashbuckler subclass gets the ability to back out of melee. And the "taunt" ability you get later is also an anti-synergy, if you're getting sentinel to generate off turn attacks.

[LudicSavant]

STR: 10
DEX: 20 (18+2)
CON: 20
INT: 14
WIS: 20 (19+1)
CHA: 20

The heck are these attribute scores

[H_H_F_F]

The heck are these attribute scores

He mentioned that they used a d20. As I elaborated in my comment, the dice are clearly imbalanced.

[LudicSavant]

He mentioned that they used a d20. As I elaborated in my comment, the dice are clearly imbalanced.

They could be rolling 4d20 drop lowest and it still wouldn't produce scores like that.

The heck are these attribute scores.

[H_H_F_F]

They could be rolling 4d20 drop lowest and it still wouldn't produce scores like that.

The heck are these attribute scores.

Wack dice :smallshrug:

[Damon_Tor]

The heck are these attribute scores

It's a quirk of quantum physics, Schrodinger's dice. When players roll their stats without a DM observing them, the results can be anything. So the rolls are both great and terrible until the DM actually sees the character sheet at which point the waveform collapses. We just happen to be in the observable reality in which the character rolled 4 post-racial 20s and nothing under 10. In some other timeline there's some poor guy trying to figure out how to play a character with two 1s a 2 and a 3.

[Mastikator]

With your insane ability scores I'd take something other than DPR. Like Inspiring Leader, Mobile or Magic Initiate.

I do think a swashbuckler should grab 1 level of fighter, not just for the duelist fighting style but also for the shield proficiency so you can actually swash your buckler.

[LudicSavant]

It's a quirk of quantum physics, Schrodinger's dice. When players roll their stats without a DM observing them, the results can be anything. So the rolls are both great and terrible until the DM actually sees the character sheet at which point the waveform collapses. We just happen to be in the observable reality in which the character rolled 4 post-racial 20s and nothing under 10. In some other timeline there's some poor guy trying to figure out how to play a character with two 1s a 2 and a 3.

I find this highly suspicious.

[CTurbo]

In a little bit of defense against those stat rolls, I've seen some pretty wild stats, and have done a couple of wild rolls myself.

We rolled d20s for stats with my Monk/Warlock and I rolled two nat 20s and a 18 so started off with 20 Dex, Wis, and Cha.
I rolled three 18s in a 4d6 drop lowest and played a single class Paladin.
I've witnessed somebody roll nothing lower than a 15, and I've witnessed somebody roll nothing over a 10.

I actually like rolling d20s for stats as it allows for some wild stats which is always fun. We don't always do it, but when we do, anything lower than 4 gets rerolled, but it's not uncommon to see some 4s and 5s. It makes for some really fun characters.

Lizardfolk Barbarian with a 4 Cha was played as just really disgusting, stinky, vile, and rude.
Paladin with 4 Dex was played as ridiculously clumsy.
Halfling Barbarian with 4 Int was played as a feral wild child raised by wolves.
Wizard with 5 Str was played as very old and frail.



Inspiring Leader and Wood Elf Magic were actually a good call outs that I just didn't think about.

[H_H_F_F]

I find this highly suspicious.

Doubt anyone would cheat this openly. I'll rate the 10 first possibilities that come to mind, from most to least likely:

1. Bad dice.
2. Story got some flourishing from the table to the forum.
3. Never even happened, just easier to get the necessary advice with this background than explain the actual story, which is much more esoteric. What they call a "white lie".
4. Intentional cheating.
5. I'm hallucinating this entire thread.
6. I'm dreaming.
7. I'm long-term delusional, hallucinating this entire forum.
8. Some weird quantum event that'd revolutionize physics.
9. Some unknown entity with powers beyond our understanding has decided to start revealing itself.
10. Coincidence.

[Unoriginal]

I find this highly suspicious.

Rolling three 20s is just as likely as rolling three 4s or three 12s. It's unlikely but not some kind of math anomaly.

I know someone who rolled 001 on a d100 once per session, for five consecutives sessions.

[H_H_F_F]

In a little bit of defense against those stat rolls, I've seen some pretty wild stats, and have done a couple of wild rolls myself.

We rolled d20s for stats with my Monk/Warlock and I rolled two nat 20s and a 18 so started off with 20 Dex, Wis, and Cha.
I rolled three 18s in a 4d6 drop lowest and played a single class Paladin.
I've witnessed somebody roll nothing lower than a 15, and I've witnessed somebody roll nothing over a 10.

I actually like rolling d20s for stats as it allows for some wild stats which is always fun. We don't always do it, but when we do, anything lower than 4 gets rerolled, but it's not uncommon to see some 4s and 5s. It makes for some really fun characters.

Probability analysis given above. Our intuitions when it comes to probability are very bad. What happened to you that one time is unlikely. What happened to this party, when we take into account the 18 and the 19, is about as likely as me guessing correctly that you, CTurbo, will be struck by lightning on October 2nd, 2032.

Rolling three 20s is just as likely as rolling three 4s or three 12s. It's unlikely but not some kind of math anomaly.

I know someone who rolled 001 on a d100 once per session, for five consecutives sessions.

You're ignoring a couple of things here.

First, this isn't like someone telling you "I rolled 4 nat 20's in a row this one time." This isn't selection bias - someone rolling thousands upon thousands of d20 rolls, that picked this event out of it because it is worth remembering and telling. This is incidental information - presumably, the OP would have asked us the exact same question no matter how the party rolled. He probably wouldn't have bothered telling us about the rest of the party's amount of nat 20's if it wasn't remarkable, but he still would've given us his attributes and told us how the party's doing. This is super important, as it means that these are (supposedly) very close to being truly random rolls. No selection bias, unlike with the previously given example.

Second, it's true that a 20 is as likely as a 3. If op rolled two 3's, and told us everybody else in the party rolled at least two 3's as well, I would've made the same call. The repetition is the interesting part. Any roll is as likely as any other, but if I rolled 10d20 and got certain results, and you rolled them and got the exact same results, we'd have good reason to suspect that we're not dealing with fair dice. Imagine someone flipping a coin and getting heads a 100 times in a row. You wouldn't take a "fair" bet on tails, because you'd have good reason to assume that the coin isn't a fair coin - despite the fact that on a fair coin, heads is just as likely as tails, and not inherently significant in any way.

Which brings me to my final point. As I said, even if it would've been 3s, I'd have told op to ditch their dice. However, it should be noted that there's a massive amount of dice out there that are unfair and inclined to roll high - and accidentally getting your hands on a set of those is just infinitely more likely than these rolls being made on fair dice on character creation.

[LudicSavant]

Rolling three 20s is just as likely as rolling three 4s or three 12s. It's unlikely but not some kind of math anomaly.

This is significantly more unlikely than 3 natural 20s.

[Kane0]

Given the party you have, ritual caster might not be a bad choice?

Otherwise id go with mobile, inspiring leader or lucky

[Catullus64]

Very particular to your build, but a Wood Elf Swashbuckler Rogue can get good use out of Skulker, otherwise a pretty poor feat. Mask of the Wild + Skulker gives a lot of opportunities to hide in-combat, especially in a module like Rime of the Frostmaiden. Free OA avoidance from Fancy Footwork and extra movement from your race means more ability to escape melee to get into hiding spots. The ranged attack feature is nifty if not huge for a melee build, and the dim light benefit is useful for anybody with Darkvision.

Is it optimal? Not by a long shot. But if you can make it work, it's cool as heck.

I also second those who have proposed Inspiring Leader, if it fits your character's personality.

[Yakk]

Martial Adept: Riposte and Brace.

This gives you a 1/short rest extra sneak attack more reliably than Sentinel, unless your DM really likes triggering Sentinel.

The key to doing more staby staby as a rogue is reaction based attacks to trigger an extra dose of Sneak Attack.

[Psyren]

1) OP didn't roll three or four 20s - they rolled two 20s, an 18, and a 19.

2) It looks like everyone in the party has high stats like these (i.e. "everyone has at least two 20s"), so there's actually no problem. It's not like the OP is an outlier; the DM just has to make the fights a bit harder for their EL/skill level than expected. I don't see accusing them of cheating or using weighted dice as being helpful.

3) @OP: +1 on picking up a SCAGtrip via Magic Initiate or similar. Are you getting level 1 feats in your background?

[LudicSavant]

1) OP didn't roll three or four 20s - they rolled two 20s, an 18, and a 19.

We know.

2) It looks like everyone in the party has high stats like these (i.e. "everyone has at least two 20s"), so there's actually no problem.

That's part of what makes it statistically preposterous.

If you generate stats by rolling a d20, it's weird if none of your stats are below 10, weirder to end up with 4 post-racial 20s, and weirder still (by orders of magnitude) for everyone in the party to have multiple 20s. Weird enough that we essentially must conclude that there is some missing detail for how these stats are generated, whatever that may be.

[Damon_Tor]

We know.



That's part of what makes it statistically preposterous.

If you generate stats by rolling a d20, it's weird if none of your stats are below 10, weirder to end up with 4 post-racial 20s, and weirder still (by orders of magnitude) for everyone in the party to have multiple 20s. Weird enough that we essentially must conclude that there is some missing detail for how these stats are generated, whatever that may be.

There are DMs who allow unlimited rerolling. They can just roll 6d20 as many times as it takes for them to get an array they want to play.

[CTurbo]

In my groups, every player rolls for stats openly, and each player can choose from any of the other players stat rolls. This could be what happened here. That one time when I rolled two 20s and an 18, every other player used my rolls except one guy who specifically wanted worse stats for reasons.