What Are You Playing: 9 Years since the Last Dragon Age

[Anonymouswizard]

I would *love* if someone remade the DA games as true turn-based isometric using the Divinity engine, complete with AP and recharge magic 💗

I'd be fine with it being done in a 'Standard/Move/Swift action' style, but being turned based would be such an improvement to the series.

So knowing my luck Dreadwolf will probably be some kind of Soulslike.

[Psyren]

I'd be fine with it being done in a 'Standard/Move/Swift action' style, but being turned based would be such an improvement to the series.

That would honestly work (the tabletop version does use a Move/Minor/Standard model.) I do think that since this franchise was a video game first and foremost, it could take advantage of an AP resource model to better balance its spells and martial powers. And DAI in particular uses a energy barrier/physical barrier system that is very similar to Divinity.

So knowing my luck Dreadwolf will probably be some kind of Soulslike.

I've given up all hope of the base combat being any good, or worth (at least for me) turning up past story difficulty to get through as quickly as possible for the character stuff.

[DaedalusMkV]

So knowing my luck Dreadwolf will probably be some kind of Soulslike.

Considering that Bioware fired their entire QA team for the sin of unionization just a few days ago, only 2 months after firing a significant portion of their writing staff...

Something tells me that whatever it winds up being, it probably won't be spectacular.

[Zevox]

I would *love* if someone remade the DA games as true turn-based isometric using the Divinity engine, complete with AP and recharge magic 💗

I don't know about the Divinity parts, since I haven't played those, but in general a true turn-based version of Dragon Age would definitely be a welcome improvement.

Considering that Bioware fired their entire QA team for the sin of unionization just a few days ago, only 2 months after firing a significant portion of their writing staff...

Something tells me that whatever it winds up being, it probably won't be spectacular.

Oh. Oh my.

That's the kind of thing that makes you wonder if we'll ever be seeing Dreadwolf, or that new Mass Effect that's supposedly in the works, at all. And if they'll be worth seeing if we do.

[warty goblin]

I mean Bioware hasn't released a good game since optimistically Inquisition, which was, well, thread title years ago now. And they've only managed two games in that span, one of which was a bad version of a formula Ubisoft already ran into the ground, and the other just a completely baffling failure in every possible way.

They're uh, they're not a good studio anymore.

[Anonymouswizard]

Considering that Bioware fired their entire QA team for the sin of unionization just a few days ago, only 2 months after firing a significant portion of their writing staff...

Something tells me that whatever it winds up being, it probably won't be spectacular.

The Bioware that made Neverwinter Nights, KotOR, Mass Effect 2, and the two good Dragon Age games is long dead, it breathed it's last gasp between Inquisition and Anthem. I wouldn't be shocked if Oblivion ends up facing a similar fate.

I also suspect that if Dreadwolf fails EA will kill Bioware and throw Dragon Age, Mass Effect, and criminally Jade Empire into the freezer. Wasn't there talk of a potential Jade Empire 2 years ago? I bet Anthem caused that to be canned.

...I should really do a Closed Fist run of Jade Empire, but I'd end up like neutral on the morality meter. A shame because it's far more interesting than Paragon/Renegade. (Giving the girl the knife is the best scene in the game and the sort of thing a Closed Fist run should have been made of.)

[Zevox]

I mean Bioware hasn't released a good game since optimistically Inquisition, which was, well, thread title years ago now. And they've only managed two games in that span, one of which was a bad version of a formula Ubisoft already ran into the ground, and the other just a completely baffling failure in every possible way.

They're uh, they're not a good studio anymore.

I know. But as long as they exist and are supposedly working on new games in series I like, I can hope for them to manage a comeback, however long the odds may be. They wouldn't be the first studio to do something like that - though they'd probably be the first EA studio to do so, granted.

[Errorname]

So far it's fun, the companions are more interesting than I remember. The lore is more... I dunno, something about the execution feels flatter than I would like. The way that culture and religion get talked about, especially in Codex entries, feels more like a history lecture, more intellectualized, rather than real, living practices. There's a level of artificiality to a lot of it, although I think the Qunari stuff is good at avoiding that pitfall.

In general I find that Bioware's worldbuilding feels a little flimsy. Generally functional, you can understand the ideas they want to explore but it doesn't quite hang together the way you might want it to. They're very much carried by strong writing of individual characters.

So knowing my luck Dreadwolf will probably be some kind of Soulslike.

Last I heard was God of War like, but for all I know they've rebooted the game a few times since that leaked.

I mean Bioware hasn't released a good game since optimistically Inquisition, which was, well, thread title years ago now. And they've only managed two games in that span, one of which was a bad version of a formula Ubisoft already ran into the ground, and the other just a completely baffling failure in every possible way.

They're uh, they're not a good studio anymore.

I'd honestly put the last good Bioware game as far back as Mass Effect 2, and even there you can see the cracks showing. There's a lot of stuff to like in ME3 and Inquisition but I don't think the games overall are good

[ArmyOfOptimists]

In general I find that Bioware's worldbuilding feels a little flimsy. Generally functional, you can understand the ideas they want to explore but it doesn't quite hang together the way you might want it to. They're very much carried by strong writing of individual characters.

Dragon Age in particular always feels like it was designed in reverse. Instead of coming up with a history and thinking forward from there to determine how the nations and cultures would respond to events, they started with them already fully formed (we want capitalistic dwarves and oppressed elves, etc.) and then came up with justifications for why it'd be that way, while filling in any gaps with generic fantasy. As a result, the whole setting feels very performative.

I have the same issue with BG3, though, so maybe it's just me.

[DaedalusMkV]

The Bioware that made Neverwinter Nights, KotOR, Mass Effect 2, and the two good Dragon Age games is long dead, it breathed it's last gasp between Inquisition and Anthem. I wouldn't be shocked if Oblivion ends up facing a similar fate.

I also suspect that if Dreadwolf fails EA will kill Bioware and throw Dragon Age, Mass Effect, and criminally Jade Empire into the freezer. Wasn't there talk of a potential Jade Empire 2 years ago? I bet Anthem caused that to be canned.

...I should really do a Closed Fist run of Jade Empire, but I'd end up like neutral on the morality meter. A shame because it's far more interesting than Paragon/Renegade. (Giving the girl the knife is the best scene in the game and the sort of thing a Closed Fist run should have been made of.)

Oh, certainly. They're as dead as the Blizzard that gave us Warcraft 3 at this point. Just thought I'd bring it up because it's extremely topical here where I live thanks to Bioware being headquartered in my province. All over the news because of the union-busting angle. I figured I might as well bring it up while Dreadwolf was under discussion, in case people hadn't heard.


Open Hand/Closed Fist was the coolest concept for a morality meter, really. Help people vs give people a chance to help themselves. It's a shame it mostly just sticks to normal video game good/evil, because the philosophy behind Closed Fist actually makes a lot of sense, and the knife scene is great.

[warty goblin]

I have the same issue with BG3, though, so maybe it's just me.

Oh BG3 is a total hot mess in terms of plot and lore. But it's also fun silly fantasy nonsense and 100% knows it. Dragon Age always felt way too serious to have much fun with itself, which makes it much harder to tolerate its grimderp edgelord standard fantasy.

[Anonymouswizard]

Oh BG3 is a total hot mess in terms of plot and lore. But it's also fun silly fantasy nonsense and 100% knows it. Dragon Age always felt way too serious to have much fun with itself, which makes it much harder to tolerate its grimderp edgelord standard fantasy.

Dragon Age also gives me the impression that the developers thought they were oh so clever for coming up with Teenage Dark Fantasy D&D #97, whereas Larian games give the impression they're playing it with a straight face because that's funnier. Plus there's something refreshing about the fact that playing a Paladin in BG3 gives you the opportunity to play a knight in shining armour who just stepped out of a storybook, and characters occasionally react to that both positively and negatively.

After a lot of games where they try to present fantasy heroes in a 'realistic' manner it's nice that my Dark Urge Paladin has essentially turned out as Fantasy Superman.

(The Dark Urge is also far, far more involved in the plot than the Dragon Age protagonists tend to be.)

[Errorname]

Dragon Age in particular always feels like it was designed in reverse. Instead of coming up with a history and thinking forward from there to determine how the nations and cultures would respond to events, they started with them already fully formed (we want capitalistic dwarves and oppressed elves, etc.) and then came up with justifications for why it'd be that way, while filling in any gaps with generic fantasy. As a result, the whole setting feels very performative.

I have the same issue with BG3, though, so maybe it's just me.

Building the setting around the story you want to tell and the themes you want to explore is fine, that's how most stories handle it. I do think you're on the money about Thedas being a setting in conflict between wanting to be gritty and complex and realistic while also doing all the generic fantasy stuff, and frankly their gritty complexity is pretty derivative too. Probably not for nothing that the Qunari are the most interesting thing in the setting, and they're easily the most creative part.

I do love that "Thedas" is just "THE Dragon Age Setting", that's cute. I love it when nobody bothers to replace the placeholder name.

Open Hand/Closed Fist was the coolest concept for a morality meter, really. Help people vs give people a chance to help themselves. It's a shame it mostly just sticks to normal video game good/evil, because the philosophy behind Closed Fist actually makes a lot of sense, and the knife scene is great.

Bioware loves coming up with a more interesting moral choice framework than "do you want to pet the puppy or kick the puppy" and then writing "do you want to pet the puppy or kick the puppy" anyways.

[Anonymouswizard]

Bioware loves coming up with a more interesting moral choice framework than "do you want to pet the puppy or kick the puppy" and then writing "do you want to pet the puppy or kick the puppy" anyways.

Honestly for Jade Empire I think the evil options are worth being there, they just should have given no morality points while the Closed Fist options picked up on the 'help others help themselves' and 'tough love' aspects. The two main villains are clearly Closed Fist and Open Palm, so let the protagonist's view of the philosophy contrast them. The issue cones from the fact that a lot of the time the most CF option is to walk away, I have to think of CF questing as the Spirit Monk being a tsundere to the entire world.

But the few times it's applied properly are great.

An alternative theory based on the fact that other characters noted as CF are much closer to the actual philosophy, is that after having been raised by an Open Hand master in an Open Hand environment the Spirit Monk is just kind of bad at it.

[Eldan]

They also kind of tie far too many things into a single alignment dimension.

Look at Mass Effect. Paragon and Renegade is presented as "We need to follow the rules" vs. "I don't have time for the rules, I have a galaxy to save". Also "Heroic friendship speech" vs. "Fall in line or get out of my way".

Okay, sure, that works.

Except it's also xenophile vs. humanity first, for no reason. And working with Cerberus vs. not working with them. And also occasionally just being pointlessly evil vs. not that.

Would be nice if the didn't always just have a single axis you get points on. I'd rather just have no moral axis in most of their games, and the ability to just choose what I want. I especially hate the "you must be *this* evil to give the badass answer" barriers. No, you haven't kicked enough cats to just shoot the criminal instead of negotiating.

[Batcathat]

Still beats the games where morality and reputation are the same score, like Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, which leads to oddities like the whole world apparently learning about what you do in complete secrecy and the evil companions hatred of being hero-worshipped (you'd think they would love the chance to exploit it).

On another note, this discussion reminds me that I've never tried Jade Empire, maybe I should get around to that at some point? Would people familiar with it say it's likely to hold up even without nostalgia?

[Zombimode]

So, finished Cyberpunk 2077. Quite fantastic, I would say.

Design-wise it's perfect. Night City is beautifully realized and insanely detailed. Not in the sense that it has ornaments, no, the design is dense, created with purpose - and it nails it. The architecture, the noise of the city, the ads, the music - everything is so spot-on.

As a narrative experience it worked very well for me. The plot is interesting, I found the writing in the dialogues (which is most of it) to be excellent, and there are a lot of great characters. CP2077 has a way of dropping great characters out of nowhere with little to no foreshadowing what kind of role they will play. I'm pretty sure I have missed a couple of them.


Now, I have to admit that I only did about a half up to 2/3rds of the side gigs, about a quarter of fixer quests and completely skipped Phantom Liberty. And I'm usually a completionist.
So, why the "hurry" (still clocked in 100+ hours...) to leave Night City?
I think there are a two reasons:

1. CP2077 does not offer escapism. The world presented in the game is uncomfortably real. SciFi visions have at least a comforting distance in time and technology and sometimes even hopeful optimism, and fantasy's whole raison d'être is to provide the mind a realm where it can roam freely, unburdened by reality. But the world of CP2077 - thats us. Sure, there are some obvious genre iconics like cyberware and cyberspace but if I put those aside for a moment I see neither a dystopia nor futurism, but a clinically honest artistic depiction of our near-future (or maybe even the present in some cases and places...).

2. The game is not a power fantasy. I could see people arguing this but to me it rings true. Despite V's moments of courage and bravery, and maybe even selflessness, this is not a heroes journey. Not because of any qualities that V might lack - she absolutely has what it takes - but simply because it is not that kind of story and this is not that kind of world. In the end V is not an agent of change. She would be if she could, but she can't. The world as is simply can't be changed by a random streetpunk with an attitude. Johnny believed he could, tried and failed.

That actually offers an interesting perspective on story telling especially in video games. What makes a hero? Sure, the person, but also the world.

Shepard and Geralt lived and died as heroes - because they picked up the assault rifle/sword and decided to do something about the word - and the world let them.

V - just died.

[Eldan]

Still beats the games where morality and reputation are the same score, like Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, which leads to oddities like the whole world apparently learning about what you do in complete secrecy and the evil companions hatred of being hero-worshipped (you'd think they would love the chance to exploit it).

On another note, this discussion reminds me that I've never tried Jade Empire, maybe I should get around to that at some point? Would people familiar with it say it's likely to hold up even without nostalgia?

I think it's perfectly okay, and I first played it years after it came out. It came around the same time as the original Mass Effect, so I wouldn't say it suffers from being old all that much, either.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

In general I find that Bioware's worldbuilding feels a little flimsy. Generally functional, you can understand the ideas they want to explore but it doesn't quite hang together the way you might want it to. They're very much carried by strong writing of individual characters.

Dragon Age in particular always feels like it was designed in reverse. Instead of coming up with a history and thinking forward from there to determine how the nations and cultures would respond to events, they started with them already fully formed (we want capitalistic dwarves and oppressed elves, etc.) and then came up with justifications for why it'd be that way, while filling in any gaps with generic fantasy. As a result, the whole setting feels very performative.

I have the same issue with BG3, though, so maybe it's just me.

Yeah exactly! I like the "backwards" point, because it does very much feel like they started with traits and then didn't do enough work to make the world feel like it came from living, breathing things. Feels a bit like a GM who had a bunch of "what if X was Y" ideas for a fantasy setting and dropped a tome of lore homework in the email before the first session of the campaign.

There are some really interesting potential threads (like how the Paragons and the Shapers work in Orzammar), but I don't consistently feel drawn into a cohesive or distinctive world. And there's much more telling ("there is a major conflict between X and Y") and less showing ("here are things that X and Y hold to be meaningful, and you can see why they come into conflict, but also why they're so attached to these things").

I have really enjoyed getting to know Liliana, she's got a very interesting way of connecting spirituality to lived experience and daily practice. (It honestly works so much better for me than most of the Chantry stuff.)

[Rynjin]

I think it's perfectly okay, and I first played it years after it came out. It came around the same time as the original Mass Effect, so I wouldn't say it suffers from being old all that much, either.

It doesn't suffer from being old, per se, but it does suffer from being...not very good.

The game is pretty boring for the first 1/3 to 1/2 of it, and when the story does pick up it ends on basically a wet fart of some of the dumbest writing I've seen in a video game.

The gameplay is slow and clunky, with no particular excuse as to why except that Bioware was really reaching beyond their grasp trying to make a game with real action combat.

So in both narrative and gameplay there's not much reason to play it in the modern era. Arguably there was no real reason to play it when it came out. And I say that as someone who is likely the biggest target audience for the game, given how much I like those wuxia and other martial arts tales.

[Mx.Silver]

Still beats the games where morality and reputation are the same score, like Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, which leads to oddities like the whole world apparently learning about what you do in complete secrecy and the evil companions hatred of being hero-worshipped (you'd think they would love the chance to exploit it).

On another note, this discussion reminds me that I've never tried Jade Empire, maybe I should get around to that at some point? Would people familiar with it say it's likely to hold up even without nostalgia?

Depends a bit on your tolerance for 2000s-era Bioware writing because it's very that (especially in regards to the 'good/evil' route, despite what the game tells you about Open Palm/Closed Fist). I personally find the style a bit tedious these days, but if you're into it you shouldn't have a problem. It does do a couple of things with the main plot that are a bit more interesting than its immediate peers, although nothing I'd say that elevates it much beyond being, well, a 2000s Bioware plot. Gameplay-wise it's, well, functional (although the steam version does have a couple of significant glitches that can happen). Combat's not hugely challenging if you know what you're doing and what options to avoid.

A couple of other notes is that it's the first Bioware game to have same-sex romance options for male and female players characters, and the first (and possibly only?) Bioware game with a poly romance option, although only for male PCs.

[Rynjin]

Depends a bit on your tolerance for 2000s-era Bioware writing because it's very that (especially in regards to the 'good/evil' route, despite what the game tells you about Open Palm/Closed Fist). I personally find the style a bit tedious these days, but if you're into it you shouldn't have a problem. It does do a couple of things with the main plot that are a bit more interesting than its immediate peers, although nothing I'd say that elevates it much beyond being, well, a 2000s Bioware plot. Gameplay-wise it's, well, functional (although the steam version does have a couple of significant glitches that can happen). Combat's not hugely challenging if you know what you're doing and what options to avoid.

A couple of other notes is that it's the first Bioware game to have same-sex romance options for male and female players characters, and the first (and possibly only?) Bioware game with a poly romance option, although only for male PCs.

The funniest thing about the good/evil route dichotomy is the endings basically throw it in the garbage lol.

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Given that making arguably the most moral choices in the game (giving one of the bad guys the chance to redeem himself, and keeping the water dragon trapped so millions of people don't die in a drought) instantly punts you onto the "evil" route where you rule the land with an iron fist despite being the biggest goody goody of all time beforehand.

[Anonymouswizard]

On another note, this discussion reminds me that I've never tried Jade Empire, maybe I should get around to that at some point? Would people familiar with it say it's likely to hold up even without nostalgia?

The story can take a while to get off the ground, the combat longer, and there's clear signs that the final three chapters suffered from crunch Bioware Magic. The story remains good, but it's clearly missing an intended questing hub and the depth that would bring.

The combat... it's complicated, it's not good combat but once you're comfortable with 4+ styles it's enjoyable, especially when you're taking out enemies fast enough to generate plenty of Qi and Focus powerups. It just would have been better if they'd gone with 4-6 deep styles rather than like forty shallow ones.

If you find it on sale for a tenner I'd say it's definitely worth it, it may or may not be at the £15 asking price.

A tip: don't start with Thousand Cuts on your first playthrough. The light attack combo ends with a flourish which IIRC makes it take as long as White Demon's, although spamming the first two moves is viable. Any of the other three are fine, I think Leaping Tiger is considered the best but I personally prefer White Demon or Legendary Strike.

[ArmyOfOptimists]

They also kind of tie far too many things into a single alignment dimension.

Look at Mass Effect. Paragon and Renegade is presented as "We need to follow the rules" vs. "I don't have time for the rules, I have a galaxy to save". Also "Heroic friendship speech" vs. "Fall in line or get out of my way".

Okay, sure, that works.

Except it's also xenophile vs. humanity first, for no reason. And working with Cerberus vs. not working with them. And also occasionally just being pointlessly evil vs. not that.

Would be nice if the didn't always just have a single axis you get points on. I'd rather just have no moral axis in most of their games, and the ability to just choose what I want. I especially hate the "you must be *this* evil to give the badass answer" barriers. No, you haven't kicked enough cats to just shoot the criminal instead of negotiating.

I think this is why you don't see many RPGs with tally point morality systems anymore. People didn't like earning Morality Points, they enjoyed having different moral choices and the consequences of them. Once developers realized they could give the choices without any strings attached, they started doing that instead. The points system only made sense for Star Wars anyway, as your morality has a tangible impact on your abilities in its setting.

Not that this was a revelation. Plenty of RPGs were doing morality without points, but it became trendy in the mid-2000s when KOTOR made a big splash. These days it feels weird playing a BioWare RPG that's trying to sum up all your decisions on a single axis like that makes any sense.

[Psyren]

Concerning Jade Empire - the whole water dragon thing is a little silly when you think about it. The Water Dragon says "Emperor Sun would not accept that his Empire had to fade so that something new would bloom. He declared war as if the drought was an advancing army."

But like... wasn't it? Whole towns were dropping like flies as the drought went on, tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of innocent people were dying off through no fault of their own. What exactly did she expect the Sun brothers to do, just shrug and let it happen? "Oh those silly humans down there, they just refused to give up and let me choke them out on schedule like I was supposed to." It's not like they caused the initial drought - she did, and gave no reason for it other than it was clearly marked on her calendar in ink.

All the game can really do to drum up sympathy is have your companions stand around exclaiming about what a crime against the natural order this whole thing is, while presenting no counterpoints or alternatives. Her best argument is a vague "some other land you'd never heard of is going thirsty, probably. Honest." Yeah, I can't imagine why the Sun brothers would prioritize their own land and people dying right in front of their faces over some rando other nation they'd probably never even see...

[Rynjin]

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Concerning Jade Empire - the whole water dragon thing is a little silly when you think about it. The Water Dragon says "Emperor Sun would not accept that his Empire had to fade so that something new would bloom. He declared war as if the drought was an advancing army."

But like... wasn't it? Whole towns were dropping like flies as the drought went on, tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of innocent people were dying off through no fault of their own. What exactly did she expect the Sun brothers to do, just shrug and let it happen? "Oh those silly humans down there, they just refused to give up and let me choke them out on schedule like I was supposed to." It's not like they caused the initial drought - she did, and gave no reason for it other than it was clearly marked on her calendar in ink.

All the game can really do to drum up sympathy is have your companions stand around exclaiming about what a crime against the natural order this whole thing is, while presenting no counterpoints or alternatives. Her best argument is a vague "some other land you'd never heard of is going thirsty, probably. Honest." Yeah, I can't imagine why the Sun brothers would prioritize their own land and people dying right in front of their faces over some rando other nation they'd probably never even see...

Exactly, yeah.

Like I understand the philosophy and mysticism this idea comes from, but it's so bizarre for the game to just so UNCRITICIALLY parrot that philosophy and treat it as an immutable proof.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I never actually finished Jade Empire, but I did love

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the whole mentor betrayal that hinges on the highly specific vulnerability that everyone has been noticing and commenting on, but assuming there's a secret reason for. Very fun payoff for a plot twist that was hidden boldly in plain sight

[Psyren]

I never actually finished Jade Empire, but I did love

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the whole mentor betrayal that hinges on the highly specific vulnerability that everyone has been noticing and commenting on, but assuming there's a secret reason for. Very fun payoff for a plot twist that was hidden boldly in plain sight

Jade Empire does have one of the greatest Bioware twists of all time. On top of being a groundbreaking game on other fronts such as martial arts action combat, LGBT representation, and Chinese-inspired mythology.

Honestly though, I do think it gets a bit more of a pass than perhaps it should because of those positives. The combat is horribly balanced (you can very easily end up *massively* overpowered relative to every challenge in the game, and deal/soak so much raw damage that the status effect styles are often a waste of time); the environments are a slog to get through even if you focus-dash everywhere, and other than the celestial realm they tend to be very sparse and samey; and talking to your companions means needing to physically run all the way back to camp to talk with your companions etc. The shmup minigame struck me as the devs just throwing up their hands when tasked with coming up with any kind of system that would break up the gameplay as well.

[Anonymouswizard]

I never actually finished Jade Empire, but I did love

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the whole mentor betrayal that hinges on the highly specific vulnerability that everyone has been noticing and commenting on, but assuming there's a secret reason for. Very fun payoff for a plot twist that was hidden boldly in plain sight

To be honest the game could have stopped there and had a great story, as it is it never really explains

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how the Spirit Monk purged their flaw

which I suspect would have been the main storyline of a beefier third/fourth act.

Honestly I'd love for EA to greenlight a remake of Jade Empire that tightened up the combat and switched out the party system for something more like the one in Mass Effect.

...darn it I've got it installed, I'm booting it up.

[Psyren]

To be honest the game could have stopped there and had a great story, as it is it never really explains

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how the Spirit Monk purged their flaw

which I suspect would have been the main storyline of a beefier third/fourth act.

Honestly I'd love for EA to greenlight a remake of Jade Empire that tightened up the combat and switched out the party system for something more like the one in Mass Effect.

...darn it I've got it installed, I'm booting it up.

While it doesn't explain how you corrected it, remember that

Spoiler: Endgame

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the Super Demon boss you fight in the spirt world version of Dirge, the one attracted there by Emperor Sun Hai's atrocity, takes your form to fight you

so my headcanon is that's where you were able to see it and address it firsthand. AFAICR that's the only time in the game where you truly fight yourself.