Baldur's Gate 3 II: The Urge for a Second Playthrough

[Cikomyr2]

It has other 'material worlds'? You mean actual worlds that have been pulled into it or coalesced from debris within the realm itself, or do you mean other 'material realms' like the one that Toril resides in? Time doesn't 'flow' in the Astral Plane like it does in the Material Realm, so any life that is there is stuck at its current stage of development. Githyanki have to lay their eggs on planes with actual time in order to create the next generation.

Well, yhea. Other worlds. Planets. Where time flows, and githyanki, illithids, Scros and elves live. I remember reading a forgotten realms book about the ancient history of elves, and the start was about Spelljammer imperial navy elves, so thats why i assumed the Astral Plane was basically the Sea of Stars; space.

[Eldonauran]

...so thats why i assumed the Astral Plane was basically the Sea of Stars; space.

If the Astral Plane was outer space, you wouldn't need planeshifting magic to get there.

[Zevox]

Toril is a world in the astral plane.

No, it isn't. Toril is a world in the prime material plane. Yes, the two are connected, but they're not the same. The Githyanki rule nothing in the material plane besides their Creches. Their interest there, at least as far as I'm aware, is minimal. They'll raid and steal from the inhabitants of the material plane, they'll wage their war on the Mind Flayers (and Githzerai if they happen to be there, but that's rare), and they'll establish Creches to raise their young. That's it. Whatever territories they control are in the astral plane itself, not the materal.

Also, as far as I'm aware, they're not conquerors of anything. They're raiders and xenophobes with particular racial enemies they're hell-bent on exterminating, not imperialistic conquerors. Unless I have very much the wrong impression of them, anyway.

And yhea, your 2nd point is also a big deal

Spoiler: Act 3

Show

would freeing Orpheus just.. release the Githyanki into a new conquering frenzy? Am i unleashing Alexander the Great 2.0 on the multiverse?

Or would it allow them to refocus on themselves rather than lose themselves in the service of a lich queen?

Hell, my paranoid instinct has me wondering if the Githyanki didnt completely stop their xenocide of the Illithids because they lost Orpheus/Gith psionic disrupting activity, forcing them to stop attacking elder brains directly and instead focused on guerilla strikes and resource gathering.

Unknown.

Spoiler: Act 3

Show

We don't see enough of Orpheus to have a good idea of how he would lead the Githyanki. He seems at least somewhat noble, insofar as he's more concerned with his people than himself, but we don't really know what he thinks of non-Githyanki, or what he feels the Githyanki should do besides throw off Vlaakith's rule.

Personal speculation? He's still Githyanki, and the son of the person who made the Githyanki what they are. Odds are he throws off Vlaakith's rule, and changes little else. Continues to seek the total extermination of the Mind Flayers, continues the raids on other planes for resources and funsies, probably doesn't change their overall xenophobia. The biggest question mark is what he'd think of the Githzerai, since it's unclear where in the timeline he falls relative to the schism between them. Maybe he'd be more inclined to try and make peace with them, which could do the Githyanki a lot of good; or maybe not, since they did explicitly reject his mother's rule, and the two factions would remain mortal enemies.

But that's all just speculation. In general though, make no mistake, the Githyanki are a usually evil race, motivated by revenge and xenophobia. Absent something changing that, if they ever achieved their aim of eradicating the Mind Flayers and Githzerai, there very well might be a risk of them turning their attentions to other targets, particularly any they come to regard as a threat. That's just pretty unlikely to happen.

Well, yhea. Other worlds. Planets. Where time flows, and githyanki, illithids, Scros and elves live. I remember reading a forgotten realms book about the ancient history of elves, and the start was about Spelljammer imperial navy elves, so thats why i assumed the Astral Plane was basically the Sea of Stars; space.

The Astral plane is not space. It is the plane in between the Material and Inner planes (elemental, feywild, shadow) and the Outer planes. You can travel to other planes through it, but it is not a part of them. The plane that is kind of a part of other planes is the Ethereal, which overlaps with the material and inner planes, being basically their ghost realm.

[Anonymouswizard]

If the Astral Plane was outer space, you wouldn't need planeshifting magic to get there.

I always assumed it was basically hyperspace. In fact my Starfinder setting replaced the Drift with the Astral.

[BRC]

My understanding is that it's not "Space" as in you can't get there by going up fast enough, but once you get there it certainly has a spacelike aesthetic, and there's stuff floating around there.

[Keltest]

The Githyanki aren't conquerors as such, because the Illithids and to a lesser extent Githzerai keep them in check, but their cultural ethos includes the idea of being conquerors, which was the result of the original split in the Gith race.

[Anonymouswizard]

The Githyanki aren't conquerors as such, because the Illithids and to a lesser extent Githzerai keep them in check, but their cultural ethos includes the idea of being conquerors, which was the result of the original split in the Gith race.

Githyanki as a societal hold philosophical views that should predispose them against both conquering and religion but essentially engage in both anyway. Although they're closer to bandits with delusions of grandeur than actual conquerors. Meanwhile the Githzerai aren't hypocrites but as explored in Planescape:Torment can get so stuck in the philosophy they stop moving forward.

It's why Lae'zel works, she's a smart young lady who's culture has blinded her to the fact she's guilty of everything she looks down on others for.

[Keltest]

Githyanki as a societal hold philosophical views that should predispose them against both conquering and religion but essentially engage in both anyway. Although they're closer to bandits with delusions of grandeur than actual conquerors. Meanwhile the Githzerai aren't hypocrites but as explored in Planescape:Torment can get so stuck in the philosophy they stop moving forward.

It's why Lae'zel works, she's a smart young lady who's culture has blinded her to the fact she's guilty of everything she looks down on others for.

Can you elaborate on that? I've never particularly considered Lae'zel a hypocrite.

[Eldan]

FYI the planes stuff: this changes massively with setzing abd edition. In Planescape, the Astral plane connects the material to the Outer Planes and its described as a void. It's what's outside the planes, described as the backstage of reality. Teleportation goes through it and it has some of the characteristics of the Far Realm, with Eldritch monstrosities and dead Gods. Spelljamming takes place in the Phlogiston, which is "space" between the material worlds and entirely separate from the Astral. And which you can reach by going up.

4E and 5E kinda combined the two into the Astral Sea, which is more Outer Space-like and less Eldritch and IIRC spacejamming happens there now too?

[Anonymouswizard]

Can you elaborate on that? I've never particularly considered Lae'zel a hypocrite.

Honestly the main thing that springs to mind is her demands for respect despite very clearly giving none, coupled with her blind devotion to Vlaakith but dislike of you having a similar devotion (I think, I honestly need to run through Act 1 with her and see if that reading holds up to scrutiny).

[Cikomyr2]

Its not space-space, its fantasy-space. To say X world is an Astral World is like saying New Atlantis in Starfield is a Space World. Which is true. In DnD, you dont use science to travel in space you use magic. In space you dont have to fear radiation and no air, but there's no time, so no healing, no growth beyond your intellect and labor.

But its still the concept of space. The Illithid Empire and the Githyanki that succeeded it must contain countless worlds that had time spend, because nothing grows in the astral plane. Its just a medium through which everything happen. Its.. fantasy spacepunk?

[Zevox]

Its not space-space, its fantasy-space. To say X world is an Astral World is like saying New Atlantis in Starfield is a Space World.

No, it's not. The material plane and astral plane are separate from one another, the same as any two planes are, aside from the Ethereal. No world of the material plane is a world of the astral plane, any more than Avernus is a layer of the Abyss. You can get from one to the other, but they're not the same thing.

The Astral plane is an intermediary one, through which you can travel to most others. In that way you can compare it to space, to some degree. But it's still not the same thing, because the places you can reach from it are still wholly separate planes of existence, not a part of it. It's like a room full of portals to various places, which itself isn't a part of any of the places those portals lead to, but because of the portals you can still get there from it. Except instead of a room, it's a whole plane.

But its still the concept of space. The Illithid Empire and the Githyanki that succeeded it must contain countless worlds that had time spend, because nothing grows in the astral plane. Its just a medium through which everything happen. Its.. fantasy spacepunk?

The Mind Flayer Empire supposedly spanned most of the inner planes, including multiple worlds of the material plane. The Githyanki, if what they have can be called an Empire at all, only have one in the Astral. In the other planes they only establish Creches, perform raids, and fight their enemies, they don't conquer or settle down to stay.

[Eldan]

Presumably, Baldur's Gate 3 follows the 4th and 5th edition cosmology, where the Astral Plane is Space, because the Phlogiston and Crystal Spheres don't exist anymore.

[Anonymouswizard]

Presumably, Baldur's Gate 3 follows the 4th and 5th edition cosmology, where the Astral Plane is Space, because the Phlogiston and Crystal Spheres don't exist anymore.

How many times has the Forgotten Realms cosmology been rewritten now? Is it twice, or did they slip in a third one as well?

That multiverse must be held together with duct tape by now.

[Keltest]

How many times has the Forgotten Realms cosmology been rewritten now? Is it twice, or did they slip in a third one as well?

That multiverse must be held together with duct tape by now.

Four. One for every edition change.

[Eldan]

Forgotten Realms had the Wheel in 2nd edition, briefly the World Tree in Third edition, then the Astral Sea in 4th edition and now a mix of the Astral Sea and the Wheel in 5th.

[Psyren]

I'm honestly considering respeccing Lae'zel into an Eldritch Knight, not because Battlemaster is weak (I suspect it's actually better) but because she strikes me as decent INT bad WIS.

Plus, you know, gish.

I'm making her an EK this playthrough as well, partially because I already did the Battlemaster thing, and partially because one of my mods added the SCAGtrips to the game.

Thanks. Yhea, it is just that im having a lot of difficulty making a moral judgement about the Githyanki where what is effectively their worse feature (imperial rule) is done off camera and just said "bah its merely worlds in the astral plane".

Toril is a world in the astral plane. All material planes are worlds in the astra plane, are Githyanki actually conqueror of whole civilisation or they only settle little outpost to grab key resource + grow their number? (Like an alien invader capturing Chile and settling an enclave there to exploit its lithium reserve).

And yhea, your 2nd point is also a big deal

Spoiler: Act 3

Show

would freeing Orpheus just.. release the Githyanki into a new conquering frenzy? Am i unleashing Alexander the Great 2.0 on the multiverse?

Or would it allow them to refocus on themselves rather than lose themselves in the service of a lich queen?

Hell, my paranoid instinct has me wondering if the Githyanki didnt completely stop their xenocide of the Illithids because they lost Orpheus/Gith psionic disrupting activity, forcing them to stop attacking elder brains directly and instead focused on guerilla strikes and resource gathering.

Here's my take on the whole Gith leadership situation:

Spoiler

Show

1) Whether Orpheus turns out to be bad or not, Vlaakith DEFINITELY is. Worse, she's immortal, and thus only getting stronger/more entrenched. The longer you leave a lich in any kind of political power, the harder getting rid of it will ultimately be (hi there, Szass Tam!) Worse, the most powerful Gith left in her inner circle are her fanatical true believers, because pretty much everyone else would just get eaten by her.

2) Even if he's bad - the number of mortals across all of FR capable of successfully blocking an Elder Brain (let alone a Netherbrain!) from turning tadpoled victims is probably single digits. That is a level of psionic skill mortals desperately need. Even Vlaakith herself recognized this.

3) A Githyanki civil war is good news for every other race. Even in the worst case scenario (both factions are equally bad) that just means they'll be too focused on each other to really ramp up their slaving and pillaging. And from what we can tell from Voss, Orpheus' faction isn't as bad, because if nothing else they care about Githyanki having free will. Voss himself is a hardass and a douchebag in several ways, but he kind of had to be - you don't get to kith'rak without playing the game at least a little.

4) Above all else - failing to free Orpheus won't stop the Githyanki from being a threat, the only person it helps is Vlaakith herself. They're already marauders, pirates, slavers etc. Putting a mortal Gith in charge is unlikely to make that worse, and for the reasons above, it's highly likely to make it better.

For those reasons I am pro-liberation.

Aren't the Material Plane and the Astral Plane two different dimensions/planes? I was under the impression that the Astral Plane co-exists along side a number of other different planes of existence, requiring specific kinds of magic to travel between the two. You've got the whole material universe and then you've got the Astral, where time doesn't work the same.

Presumably, Baldur's Gate 3 follows the 4th and 5th edition cosmology, where the Astral Plane is Space, because the Phlogiston and Crystal Spheres don't exist anymore.

Okay! 5e lore time:

Outer space and the Astral are different, but the line blurs once you get up there (a phenomenon known as Wildspace.) Essentially, the Astral is coterminous with the Material, and the barrier gets more... porous?... the higher up you go. This is the core principle behind how spelljamming works, which is canon across 5e.

There's a diagram in the recent Spelljammer book that helps to explain this concept:



"Wildspace is where the Astral Plane overlaps with the Material Plane. Creatures and objects in Wildspace age normally and exist on both planes simultaneously. This overlap enables creatures to use spells such as teleport and teleportation circle to travel from Wildspace to a nearby world, or vice versa." - SAIS Ch. 2, "Astral Adventures."

The "Realmspace" Wildspace system is where Toril (FR) can be found, Doomspace is Athas (Dark Sun) etc.

[Eldan]

Right. That's what I thought. They merged the Phlogiston into the Astral Plane.

[Anonymouswizard]

Respeccing into sword and board, partially to tank better, partially to actually make use of more of the magic weapons (Karlach will use polearms well enough, and I'll keep a big sword or hammer around for Lae'zel), and partially to look more like a stereotypical knight. Torn between sticking with Devotion or switching to Ancients, they both fit the way I'm playing so I'll probably end up doing a second Paladin run for Ancients.

[Eldan]

Man I hate this game sometimes. So I'm in the grymforge. Character is on top of a cliff. Tell the character to walk to the bottom of a cliff, assuming he'll take the path back. Nope. Walks straight off the cliff edge two stories down into a pool of magma and dies. Turns out I haven't quicksaved in a good while either.

[Anonymouswizard]

Finally left Act 1 for the Mountain Pass, and wow I can see why Halsin argues for the Underdark, there's much less content this way. I did successfully get Lae'zel to destroy the tadpole extraction machine (because I'm not developing the powers), so at least there's that.

Also getting Karlach all wet is both funny and incredibly sweet.

[Bunny Commando]

For my third playthrough, I rolled a Wizard and forced myself to rest more often.
Casters have so much more impact in fights if you just don't care about spell slots and yes, I know it is rather obvious, but my PbP brain could not process that the "15 minutes adventuring day" is a real possibility in the game with minimal consequences (I know there are some quests that are on a timer but the timer itself is rather generous and as soon as you take care of those, you're good to rest as much as you want).
Plus, the game really wants you to rest often; so much stuff happens at night and I'm now seeing certain dialogues for the first time ever because of all the rests. And...well, I do not really like having all these plot threads bound to rests. Wish more stuff between the main character and companions would happen in the world while traveling.

[Eldonauran]

For my third playthrough, I rolled a Wizard and forced myself to rest more often.

I've downloaded a mod that runs a script every so often to check if there is any 'end of day' dialogue content available and it puts an exclamation point above the main character's head, just like when your companions want to chat with you. I can certainly attest that there is a good amount of dialogue that I have missed because of how little I rested in Act 1. For example, I didn't get the owl bear cub to come to my camp until mid-way through Act 2 and in my Dark Urge run with this mod, the cub has arrived before I've set off the explore the Underdark/Mountain Pass.

If it help any, you can 'long rest' without consuming any food but won't really get the full effects. No HP, no recharged short rests, some (I think up to half, not exceeding half) of spell slot recharging. It will end any 'until long rest' effects you have running though.

On another note... I have certainly noticed the power spike that 5th level brings to the group, since I am playing on Tactician this time around. I've multi classed a few characters (Warlock seems to be a serious go to multi class for me), but the ones that have stayed single classed are performing ... noticeably better than others. I am having Astarion go with Bard/Fighter (Sword/Knight) this time around and he is 4 bard/1 fighter right now. Let me tell you that having him Dual-wield hand crossbows with the Sharpshooter feat, and his ability to drop Faerie Fire to give himself advantage ... simply erases enemies. I am seriously tempted to have him dip that 2nd fighter level to grab Action surge just to be able to do it in one round (or I could take 5 bard for haste... hmmm)

Anyone know, off the top of their head, if there are any weapons in the game (aside from Wyll's special weapon) that gets to use the casting stat to attack with? I am aware of the Pact of the Blade (and intend to use it) and Shillelagh but I remember seeing another one in the game that I can't quite recall the name.

EDIT: Found it. Sylvan Scimitar. Jaheira starts with it.

[Bunny Commando]

I've downloaded a mod that runs a script every so often to check if there is any 'end of day' dialogue content available and it puts an exclamation point above the main character's head, just like when your companions want to chat with you. I can certainly attest that there is a good amount of dialogue that I have missed because of how little I rested in Act 1. For example, I didn't get the owl bear cub to come to my camp until mid-way through Act 2 and in my Dark Urge run with this mod, the cub has arrived before I've set off the explore the Underdark/Mountain Pass.
If it help any, you can 'long rest' without consuming any food but won't really get the full effects. No HP, no recharged short rests, some (I think up to half, not exceeding half) of spell slot recharging. It will end any 'until long rest' effects you have running though.

TBH, I'm resting more because I do not want to be stuck casting cantrips like I had Gale do in my previous runs than out of fear of missing content. Act 1 is mostly variations of "Wanna bang?" (not with the voice of Mark Meer, unfortunately) that I skip as fast as I can.

And food is plentiful enough, so I'm not that concerned about not being able to full rest every time I wish.

[Anonymouswizard]

Yeah, I cleaned out most of the Act 1 map and then just partial rested until I hit Karlach's 'darn it I can't bang' and Shadowheart's 'we're not gonna bang yet' scene. I'm doing everything I can to avoid triggering Lae'zel's.

Honestly I find Karlach's frustrated desire for physical intimacy the most refreshing of the scenes I've seen. I'll probably end up doing her romance rather than Shadowheart's, and not just because of her sexy burn scars!

Then I threw a carafe of water at Karlach and went to the party. If I can find a magic ice bottle I might throw that aat her too. And yes, I'm hanging onto the other piece of infernal iron until I reach the inn.

[Eldonauran]

And food is plentiful enough, so I'm not that concerned about not being able to full rest every time I wish.

On Tactician difficulty, it takes 80 supplies to long rest. I might be carrying around 500+ right now, but I still feel the pinch.

Act 1 is mostly variations of "Wanna bang?" (not with the voice of Mark Meer, unfortunately) that I skip as fast as I can.

Playing the Dark Urge this time around, and a Paladin at that, I am seeing a LOT more attention from ALL of the companions. Karlach is telling me to have fun until we figure out how to cool her off more permanently. Lae'zel is telling me that she'll decide if and when to come claim me. Shadowheart answered 'not tonight' when asked if she'd be interested in sharing. Gale is giving me those heavy lidded glances. Even Wyll is making comments, and openly praising me joining the 'one eye club' and saying its a dashing look. And Astarion is blatantly flirting with me at every opportunity. My first go around, it was only just Lae'zel and Shadowheart.

The Tiefling party is going to be .. difficult. I can already feel Halsin's gaze on the back of my neck and he isn't even at camp yet.

[Zevox]

Progress on my second run is coming along.

Spoiler: Act 1

Show

This time around, I made a point of heading south to the swamp before going to the Goblin camp. Last time I found that note that reveals Kagha was working with the Shadow Druids only after I'd already freed Halsin and resolved the issues with the Grove, and it wouldn't let me do anything with it, neither bring it to Halsin's attention nor confront Kagha about it. This time, getting it before doing that, I was able to confront Kagha about it, and kill her and her surprise Shadow Druid buddies without causing any other trouble at the Grove, which was nice. (Probably could've talked Kagha herself down, but I figure my Dark Urge Githyanki character would be less interested in that than in enjoying getting to kill someone that others will approve of her killing.)

And I made a point of making sure that I didn't alert the whole Goblin camp to my killing Priestess Gut this time, so I got to speak with the rest of the camp. Though I don't feel I missed much last time. Dror Ragzlin is nothing interesting, really, and Minthara is too thoroughly under the Absolute's thrall to get any idea of what she's actually like. And I'm not going the route of recruiting her this time - looked up how that goes, and yeah, I'd need to playing a fully dedicated evil run to do that. You lose out on too many quests, to say nothing of Karlach and Wyll (and maybe Gale), taking that route, and you still don't even get to recruit Minthara until midway through Act 2. That's a pretty crappy deal.

I am having some godawful luck with the fights in the Goblin camp though. I've never seen so many turns of my characters just missing every attack before.

Okay! 5e lore time:

Outer space and the Astral are different, but the line blurs once you get up there (a phenomenon known as Wildspace.) Essentially, the Astral is coterminous with the Material, and the barrier gets more... porous?... the higher up you go. This is the core principle behind how spelljamming works, which is canon across 5e.

There's a diagram in the recent Spelljammer book that helps to explain this concept:

[snip for space]

"Wildspace is where the Astral Plane overlaps with the Material Plane. Creatures and objects in Wildspace age normally and exist on both planes simultaneously. This overlap enables creatures to use spells such as teleport and teleportation circle to travel from Wildspace to a nearby world, or vice versa." - SAIS Ch. 2, "Astral Adventures."

The "Realmspace" Wildspace system is where Toril (FR) can be found, Doomspace is Athas (Dark Sun) etc.

That's all only if you use the Spelljammer stuff, which I can't stand personally. The 5e DMG gives the default cosmology, which is essentially the Great Wheel, and is where I was getting the information I gave from.

On another note... I have certainly noticed the power spike that 5th level brings to the group, since I am playing on Tactician this time around. I've multi classed a few characters (Warlock seems to be a serious go to multi class for me), but the ones that have stayed single classed are performing ... noticeably better than others. I am having Astarion go with Bard/Fighter (Sword/Knight) this time around and he is 4 bard/1 fighter right now. Let me tell you that having him Dual-wield hand crossbows with the Sharpshooter feat, and his ability to drop Faerie Fire to give himself advantage ... simply erases enemies. I am seriously tempted to have him dip that 2nd fighter level to grab Action surge just to be able to do it in one round (or I could take 5 bard for haste... hmmm)

Yeah, I'm multiclassing Wyll this time since I can't bring myself to have him not have Warlock levels, and I want to do something different with the characters than last time*. Warlock/Paladin, since that's the popular thing and it works on him. But I've never used multiclassing in 5e before, and I definitely feel the delay in getting the level 4 ASI already, and I feel like the delay in getting extra attack/3rd-level spells at level 5 will hurt even more. I don't like it.

*For others, I'm doing:
- Lae'zel: Eldritch Knight instead of Battlemaster, and two-weapon fighting instead of two-handed weapons.
- Shadowheart: Paladin (Vengeance).
- Gale: Cleric (Knowledge).
- Astarion: Rogue (Arcane Trickster). (I switched him to Bard last time.)
- Karlach: Monk (Open Hand).

Probably will still hardly use the later companions, aside from for their personal quests.

[Anonymouswizard]

Most of the companions REALLY LIKE you being a stereotypical paladin, even Shadowheart. Wyll in particular, as I've said before he's got the basic personality and his sense of theatricality means he'd be yelling 'stand back, I'll take care of the monster' if you weren't beating him to the punch (plus he's better serving as a caster than front liner). Lae'zel doesn't, but she's got really low standards (I'm 90% sure she'd sleep with any party member bar Wyll if they asked).

OTOH I've not got Gale high enough for sex due to having Wyll in my party most of the time, and I've not worked out how to actually get on the Blade's romance route. Not that I mind much, both of them won't let me fool around with the poly bear dad.

It's not just me who gets the feeling that Halsin has kids, but it's just their mothers' year to have custody, right?

[Eldonauran]

Lae'zel doesn't, but she's got really low standards (I'm 90% sure she'd sleep with any party member bar Wyll if they asked).

Lae'zel openly made comments about Wyll looking especially tempting during my last play through, at the Tiefling camp party, when I made it clear I wasn't interested. The morning after, you can bring up the subject and she says she made the attempt but Wyll wanted to 'talk' more than anything. She looked ... slightly disappointed and yet intrigued. Nothing ever came up about it later on... but I kind of ship it.

[Anonymouswizard]

Lae'zel openly made comments about Wyll looking especially tempting during my last play through, at the Tiefling camp party, when I made it clear I wasn't interested. The morning after, you can bring up the subject and she says she made the attempt but Wyll wanted to 'talk' more than anything. She looked ... slightly disappointed and yet intrigued. Nothing ever came up about it later on... but I kind of ship it.

I've had her shoot Wyll down in wandering party banter (also Wyll is a lot more conflicted than his theatrics present, and the party brings this out). Nobody's actually that interested in Wyll, I believe you can also have the same scene with Shadowheart.

ETA: name changes implemented, time to rename myself to DAME Melissa.