Baldur's Gate 3 II: The Urge for a Second Playthrough

[Psyren]

I get that it's meant to be a permanent transformation and honestly I love the concept of having a companion who gets really messed up by a curse, but it really looks bad. Like aesthetically unappealing in a way that I don't think it's meant to, and I know Larian can make horns and black sclera look good! Feels like they went too far and not far enough at the same time.

It also happens really early so he'll spend basically all the game like that and averting it requires you to sacrifice another companion character.

Agreed; they could at least let us change the horns via the companion mirror.

Incidentally, there are mods for that (different horns rather than removing them) too

If I had to guess it's lipsync reasons, I think the dragonborn use a different rig.

Hmmm... now I'm going to see if disguise spells/Mask of the Shapeshifter will let me turn companions into dragonborn and how that might affect their dialogue if so.

It's worth remembering that BG3 is also co-op, so every party is treated like the PC because from the game's POV, and of them can be a PC. Hence also I suspect things like no pooled gold supply and per-character trading.

While gold isn't pooled per se, Larian uses a "Magic Pockets" mechanic where the active actor can get what they need from the other party members automatically. For example, if your trading character has insufficient gold for a transaction, hitting the "balance trade" button will teleport the remainder from another party member to that one and allow you to complete the purchase. Similarly, keys and other plot items can teleport around.

Not sure if it works this way in MP though, i.e. if you can "rob" human-controlled PCs while trading.

[Zevox]

I've entered Act 2 in my second run now. I'm a little surprised by how long I've gone now without any Dark Urge stuff kicking in. It's pretty much been since the Goblin camp - nothing in the Underdark, nothing at the Githyanki Creche, and at least so far nothing in the extremely early interactions I've had in act 2. The last thing I had I think was

Spoiler: Act 1

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the "Butler" showing up one night and handing me the cloak. The last actual Dark Urge interaction I remember was the option to bite off an arrogant Goblin's toe when he was insisting I kiss his feet.

I'm also really feeling the low number of spells known that Sorcerers get now. With my Cleric I pretty much always had what I wanted from each level, and with Gale as a Wizard, Astarion as a Bard, and even Wyll as a Warlock last time I didn't feel nearly so constrained as I do as a Sorcerer. I'm getting maybe a couple of options per spell level, and only one when I get access to a new level. I know this is a known issue with them, I've seen people talk about it online before, but not having played one myself it's definitely another thing to experience it. Makes me wonder if I should whip up a bonus spell list of my own for the Draconic Sorcerer in the game I just started DMing.

I get that it's meant to be a permanent transformation and honestly I love the concept of having a companion who gets really messed up by a curse, but it really looks bad. Like aesthetically unappealing in a way that I don't think it's meant to, and I know Larian can make horns and black sclera look good! Feels like they went too far and not far enough at the same time.

No, I think that's deliberate, he's supposed to look unappealing. It's a punishment for defying his orders, it's supposed to make him look wrong, make other mortals find him frightening at a glance. That's why he doesn't just look like a Tiefling - would've been easy to just swap his race from Human to Tiefling if that's what they were going for, but it isn't.

It's worth remembering that BG3 is also co-op, so every party is treated like the PC because from the game's POV, and of them can be a PC. Hence also I suspect things like no pooled gold supply and per-character trading.

True, but they still probably should've taken into account that most people would likely be playing the game single-player, and doing things that way would cause problems there. It would help considerably if things like those worked differently depending on whether you were playing with other people or not.

[Errorname]

Hmmm... now I'm going to see if disguise spells/Mask of the Shapeshifter will let me turn companions into dragonborn and how that might affect their dialogue if so.

Just tested with Shadowheart and yeah, it completely breaks the lipsync. Animations still work so it’s the same rig, but the movements don’t translate. It’s weird

No, I think that's deliberate, he's supposed to look unappealing. It's a punishment for defying his orders, it's supposed to make him look wrong, make other mortals find him frightening at a glance. That's why he doesn't just look like a Tiefling - would've been easy to just swap his race from Human to Tiefling if that's what they were going for, but it isn't.

I’m not entirely convinced by that. Notably you have dialogue that lets you compliment the new look. It is also, as mentioned his look for most of the game in most playthroughs, so I don’t know if unappealing was the right angle design-wise, especially not the sort of unappealing they chose.

Like it feels like something hastily added in well after the normal version was finalized, not something the character’s design was built around.

[Psyren]

I'm also really feeling the low number of spells known that Sorcerers get now. With my Cleric I pretty much always had what I wanted from each level, and with Gale as a Wizard, Astarion as a Bard, and even Wyll as a Warlock last time I didn't feel nearly so constrained as I do as a Sorcerer. I'm getting maybe a couple of options per spell level, and only one when I get access to a new level. I know this is a known issue with them, I've seen people talk about it online before, but not having played one myself it's definitely another thing to experience it. Makes me wonder if I should whip up a bonus spell list of my own for the Draconic Sorcerer in the game I just started DMing.

I'd agree that you should.

It's especially maddening because in the OneD&D playtest, they alleviate this issue (every sorcerer gets 7 extra spells known over their career) but they also plan to put the two sorc subclasses from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything (Aberrant and Clockwork) into the new core books, and those two get 10 more bonus spells on top of that, while Draconic and Wild Magic don't. Presumably that will get normalized before they go to print but this process has left me skeptical.

No, I think that's deliberate, he's supposed to look unappealing. It's a punishment for defying his orders, it's supposed to make him look wrong, make other mortals find him frightening at a glance. That's why he doesn't just look like a Tiefling - would've been easy to just swap his race from Human to Tiefling if that's what they were going for, but it isn't.

I mean sure, but we still have to look at it for 100 hours

It's like, hey Larian - don't fart in the elevator we're stuck in together and then tell me it was completely intentional. You still farted in the elevator!

[Cikomyr2]

Realizing Raphael might be my favourite character in this game

Spoiler: ACT 3 Spoilers

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The only thing better than a good boss theme is a good boss theme with lyrics, and the only thing better than that is a good boss theme with lyrics sung by the boss.

LIVES
All mortal lives
Expire


SOULS
Go to their dooms
In FLAME
Forever More

[Anonymouswizard]

Honestly I like Wyll's horns, and even his eye doesn't bother me that much. What made him start to look wrong to me was noticing the subtle flesh ridges, which he has in places the Tiefling models don't

Also started to experience the fabled Act 3 performance drops, it remains at a choppy but playable twenty-something most of the time but will occasionally drop to seconds per frame or just completely freeze occasionally. So as it gets too much I'm alternating it with a BG1 playthrough, which has given me two complaints:

1) please Larian give an option to raise the party cap to give or six, it makes it so much easier to get a decent balance between 'I need a balanced party' and 'I want both front liners while playing one myself'.

2) why on earth is Jaheira defaulting dual wielding scimitars in BG3? Her default weapon in 1 is the quarterstaff, she has one in her character portrait, and her most skilled weapon is actually the club. I'd say it's because they wanted to give Halsin a staff but IIRC she was planned to be in the party long before the bear. Maybe her default proficiencies changed in BG2, but I might look into modding the game so she has some kind of +2 +1d6 cold damage quarterstaff instead.

Also I do get why they changed it, but Jaheira isn't a straight classed Druid, she should have Fighter levels. But that would probably make her far too weak with BG3's encounter design.

[Psyren]

LIVES
All mortal lives
Expire


SOULS
Go to their dooms
In FLAME
Forever More

While "Song of Balduran" is my favorite tune from this game, this one is a close second.

Honestly I like Wyll's horns, and even his eye doesn't bother me that much. What made him start to look wrong to me was noticing the subtle flesh ridges, which he has in places the Tiefling models don't

Oh it's even worse, he literally tells you he has ridges and spikes in his unmentionable areas

2) why on earth is Jaheira defaulting dual wielding scimitars in BG3? Her default weapon in 1 is the quarterstaff, she has one in her character portrait, and her most skilled weapon is actually the club. I'd say it's because they wanted to give Halsin a staff but IIRC she was planned to be in the party long before the bear. Maybe her default proficiencies changed in BG2, but I might look into modding the game so she has some kind of +2 +1d6 cold damage quarterstaff instead.

It was weird to me too, but at least it made my decision to swap her to Ranger (and Minsc to Berserker Barb) much easier.

Also I do get why they changed it, but Jaheira isn't a straight classed Druid, she should have Fighter levels. But that would probably make her far too weak with BG3's encounter design.

Everyone is straight-classed by default because you can't multiclass in Story difficulty. You can't adjust their stats on story difficulty either, which causes some incongruities (No way does Minsc only have 12 Strength, but because he's a ranger, that's where they default him to.) I would take the "default builds" for each character with a heaping helping of salt.

[Keltest]

Iirc the scimitar was the best weapon for jaheira in the long run due to being one handed and not a club. She wanted a shield to make up for the weaker druid hit dice and poor armor availability from having druid levels, so no quarterstaff.

[Psyren]

Iirc the scimitar was the best weapon for jaheira in the long run due to being one handed and not a club. She wanted a shield to make up for the weaker druid hit dice and poor armor availability from having druid levels, so no quarterstaff.

That doesn't explain her dual-wielding though (since she can't do that and use a shield.) Also you can wield quarterstaffs one-handed in 5e.

Personally I think Drizz't just rubbed off on her

[Cikomyr2]

That doesn't explain her dual-wielding though (since she can't do that and use a shield.) Also you can wield quarterstaffs one-handed in 5e.

Personally I think Drizz't just rubbed off on her

Eeeewww it's like if you heard your aunt and your ***other*** uncle hooking up.

[Zevox]

I’m not entirely convinced by that. Notably you have dialogue that lets you compliment the new look. It is also, as mentioned his look for most of the game in most playthroughs, so I don’t know if unappealing was the right angle design-wise, especially not the sort of unappealing they chose.

Like it feels like something hastily added in well after the normal version was finalized, not something the character’s design was built around.

I don't think being able to compliment him means anything, both because appearances are subjective, and because you could be intended to pick that in order to be flattering whether you mean it or not. I very much think it was deliberate. Heck, what Psyren brought up about him telling us he has ridges in unmentionable places really ought to show that they knew what they were doing with his look there, I'd think.

I'd agree that you should.

It's especially maddening because in the OneD&D playtest, they alleviate this issue (every sorcerer gets 7 extra spells known over their career) but they also plan to put the two sorc subclasses from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything (Aberrant and Clockwork) into the new core books, and those two get 10 more bonus spells on top of that, while Draconic and Wild Magic don't. Presumably that will get normalized before they go to print but this process has left me skeptical.

Personally, my guess would be that they just drop the bonus spells entirely from those in 5.5, and didn't feel that alone warranted reprinting them in the playtest if they would otherwise be unchanged. But who knows.

I mean sure, but we still have to look at it for 100 hours

It's like, hey Larian - don't fart in the elevator we're stuck in together and then tell me it was completely intentional. You still farted in the elevator!

Oh come on, it's not like they made him look like Auntie Ethel or something, he's just deliberately not handsome.

Re: Jaheira - The weird thing to me is that she gets one scimitar that uses her casting stat for attacks, and one that doesn't. Just... why? Were they scared of giving you two such weapons for some reason? Plus AI-controlled Jaheira seems to favor Wild Shape in combat anyway, so the scimitars don't even matter until you get control of her. And since the AI seemed to like Wild Shaping with her I just made her a Moon Druid, personally. Though aside from her side-quest I didn't really use her. By the time you get her and the other late-game companions I was already too settled into using a rotation of the main six, feels like I'd have to go out of my way to use the others.

[Psyren]

Doing the Underdark on this playthrough and I found an interesting tablet in the Grymforge that answers an earlier topic we were discussing in the previous thread:

So Shar said to me, Ketheric Thorm: "It was Lord Ao who created chaos; it was from chaos that I formed; and it is I who anoint you my paladin. From this day forth, let my Laws be known."

I don't know how widespread knowledge of Ao is this time around, but it looks like he's at least relaxing the rules around writing about him or other gods talking about him.

I don't think being able to compliment him means anything, both because appearances are subjective, and because you could be intended to pick that in order to be flattering whether you mean it or not. I very much think it was deliberate. Heck, what Psyren brought up about him telling us he has ridges in unmentionable places really ought to show that they knew what they were doing with his look there, I'd think.

Yeah - I do agree it was intentionally bad.
(hence my analogy)

Oh come on, it's not like they made him look like Auntie Ethel or something, he's just deliberately not handsome.

I mean... I don't have to look at her for 100 hours either

Re: Jaheira - The weird thing to me is that she gets one scimitar that uses her casting stat for attacks, and one that doesn't. Just... why? Were they scared of giving you two such weapons for some reason? Plus AI-controlled Jaheira seems to favor Wild Shape in combat anyway, so the scimitars don't even matter until you get control of her. And since the AI seemed to like Wild Shaping with her I just made her a Moon Druid, personally. Though aside from her side-quest I didn't really use her. By the time you get her and the other late-game companions I was already too settled into using a rotation of the main six, feels like I'd have to go out of my way to use the others.

You know, I didn't even notice her scimitar granted Wis to attack, I just swapped her to ranger and kept it on her

[Zevox]

Doing the Underdark on this playthrough and I found an interesting tablet in the Grymforge that answers an earlier topic we were discussing in the previous thread:

So Shar said to me, Ketheric Thorm: "It was Lord Ao who created chaos; it was from chaos that I formed; and it is I who anoint you my paladin. From this day forth, let my Laws be known."

I don't know how widespread knowledge of Ao is this time around, but it looks like he's at least relaxing the rules around writing about him or other gods talking about him.

No, that was one of the things that prompted my earlier remarks about that. Ao wiped all knowledge of himself from mortal minds and records after the one and only time he appeared on Toril, he wouldn't be letting any of the gods just name-drop him like that. Like I said before, I suspect the devs just didn't realize that - particularly since Gale also talks about him as well when he explains why Mystra wouldn't just take out the Absolute for you, as if he's common knowledge.

I mean... I don't have to look at her for 100 hours either

My point was that he doesn't look nearly as bad as her . It's not like he's hideous to look at, just unattractive.

[Keltest]

Gale is a contemporary of Elminster (who knows of and has cursed the name of Ao a time or two) and a former Chosen of Mystra, so if anybody would know about Ao, it would be Gale.

[Psyren]

No, that was one of the things that prompted my earlier remarks about that. Ao wiped all knowledge of himself from mortal minds and records after the one and only time he appeared on Toril, he wouldn't be letting any of the gods just name-drop him like that. Like I said before, I suspect the devs just didn't realize that - particularly since Gale also talks about him as well when he explains why Mystra wouldn't just take out the Absolute for you, as if he's common knowledge.

I guess I'm wondering if maybe they changed that bit of the lore? It's not like knowing Ao is out there changes anything - all he cares about is that the gods continue to vie for FR souls.

Gale is a contemporary of Elminster (who knows of and has cursed the name of Ao a time or two) and a former Chosen of Mystra, so if anybody would know about Ao, it would be Gale.

And Ketheric was (at the time) a chosen of Shar. But Ketheric's tablet suggests that he was actively spreading knowledge of Shar's origins (and therefore, of Ao) throughout the faithful, so if it was a "Chosen-only" thing, it wouldn't be much longer.

I found another passage to that effect, "Canticles of the Dark Mistress":

Behold! Shar, who shades our path.
Behold! Shar, from Ao born.
Behold! Shar, the primal dark.
Our Goddess of Night, behold!

[Zevox]

Gale is a contemporary of Elminster (who knows of and has cursed the name of Ao a time or two) and a former Chosen of Mystra, so if anybody would know about Ao, it would be Gale.

No, even Elminster should be unaware of him, to my knowledge. Being a Chosen of one of the gods doesn't exempt you from Ao not wanting mortals to know of his existence - the point is that he's there to keep the gods playing by the rules, not to interact with mortals in any way. And Gale didn't feel any need to explain who Ao was when making his remarks, implying he expected you to know already as well.

I guess I'm wondering if maybe they changed that bit of the lore? It's not like knowing Ao is out there changes anything - all he cares about is that the gods continue to vie for FR souls.

Not that I've heard of. And that would change something: if mortals knew of Ao's existence, some would want to start worshiping him instead of the gods. That's what was starting to happen in the wake of the Time of Troubles, and why he wiped knowledge of his existence from mortal memory and records.

[Keltest]

No, even Elminster should be unaware of him, to my knowledge.

Ao picked up Elminster during the Time of Troubles and threw him at a big dumb monster to keep him busy. Literally.

[Anonymouswizard]

Oh it's even worse, he literally tells you he has ridges and spikes in his unmentionable areas

As do most of the Tiefling models, IIRC.

...I might spend more time on my characters' bits than their faces. Not quite as much as their hair though.

It was weird to me too, but at least it made my decision to swap her to Ranger (and Minsc to Berserker Barb) much easier.

Honestly giving her a lore accurate build is kind of bad, but 5e Ranger is honestly pretty close. Like how Minsc REALLY should be a Barbarian this edition.

Everyone is straight-classed by default because you can't multiclass in Story difficulty. You can't adjust their stats on story difficulty either, which causes some incongruities (No way does Minsc only have 12 Strength, but because he's a ranger, that's where they default him to.) I would take the "default builds" for each character with a heaping helping of salt.

Which I modded out because blargh at easy mode punishments. I get why it's there, it's incredibly easy to end up with a useless build, but it's still annoying.


Anyway, already considering my next run. I'm planning on Monk, and possibly Tiefling but also possibly one of the races which gain a d10 Versatile weapon proficiency. Maybe Wold Elf to just stack speed to ridiculous amounts.

[Keltest]

Minsc works really well as a berserker barbarian/hunter ranger multiclass. Both have some fairly strong features early on, so you can go like 4-5 of one and then 7-8 of the other and come out pretty strong.

[Jophiel]

Gale is a contemporary of Elminster (who knows of and has cursed the name of Ao a time or two) and a former Chosen of Mystra, so if anybody would know about Ao, it would be Gale.

Maybe, but it's not as though your character (or anyone else) says "Ao who now?"

You're just "Ok, Mystra won't help us defeat this giant threat because of Ao. Makes sense."

[Zevox]

Ao picked up Elminster during the Time of Troubles and threw him at a big dumb monster to keep him busy. Literally.

I can't seem to find anything about that, checking wikis? But even if it were true, that would also be before he mind-wiped the world's knowledge of him post-Time of Troubles, so it wouldn't change the end result.

[Keltest]

I can't seem to find anything about that, checking wikis? But even if it were true, that would also be before he mind-wiped the world's knowledge of him post-Time of Troubles, so it wouldn't change the end result.

I would have to go check my Forgotten Realms books to be sure, but I believe it was in one of the books of the Shadow of the Avatar trilogy.

[Psyren]

Not that I've heard of. And that would change something: if mortals knew of Ao's existence, some would want to start worshiping him instead of the gods. That's what was starting to happen in the wake of the Time of Troubles, and why he wiped knowledge of his existence from mortal memory and records.

I still don't see how. The other gods grant prayers and spells, he doesn't. Worshiping him instead of picking an actual patron doesn't save you from the Wall. Whatever faiths may spring up around him would be pretty short-lived.

Besides - the folks who we see learning about him are folks who already have a patron.

As do most of the Tiefling models, IIRC.

Now I wonder if Tiefling Tav has any special dialogue with him post-punishment...

Which I modded out because blargh at easy mode punishments. I get why it's there, it's incredibly easy to end up with a useless build, but it's still annoying.

It annoyed me too - but I had committed to my first playthrough to being unmodded. And now that I'm past it, I'm also past easy and have full control over my party's builds, so it's moot.

No, even Elminster should be unaware of him, to my knowledge. Being a Chosen of one of the gods doesn't exempt you from Ao not wanting mortals to know of his existence - the point is that he's there to keep the gods playing by the rules, not to interact with mortals in any way. And Gale didn't feel any need to explain who Ao was when making his remarks, implying he expected you to know already as well.

Even if this rule does still exist, do Elminster and Ketheric technically count as mortals anyway? Maybe that's why their patrons felt okay spilling the beans to them.

[Zevox]

I still don't see how. The other gods grant prayers and spells, he doesn't. Worshiping him instead of picking an actual patron doesn't save you from the Wall.

Because those things aren't why most people worship a god. Belief in their teachings, and that they are beings worthy of being worshipped, is. And Ao, as the original creator of the universe and the lord of the gods themselves, most definitely comes across as the latter.

Again, this was happening. After Ao revealed himself at the end of the Time of Troubles, cults dedicated to his worship started to spring up. He actively does not want that, so he wiped knowledge of himself from the world, both from records and people's minds, to stop it. So he has good reason not to let any gods just start name-dropping him to their worshippers, however dedicated they may be.

Even if this rule does still exist, do Elminster and Ketheric technically count as mortals anyway? Maybe that's why their patrons felt okay spilling the beans to them.

Yes, they definitely do. Chosen are still mortals, just empowered ones.

(Also, we don't even have reason to believe that Ketheric was even a Chosen prior to being resurrected and converting to Myrkul. That's irrelevant to the above, but I feel the need to point it out anyway.)

[Psyren]

Again, this was happening. After Ao revealed himself at the end of the Time of Troubles, cults dedicated to his worship started to spring up. He actively does not want that, so he wiped knowledge of himself from the world, both from records and people's minds, to stop it.

I'm not denying how the old rule worked; but yet, now that they are name-dropping him, we see no evidence of any such cults resurging. Keep in mind the texts name-dropping him go back at least 100 years (as that's when Ketheric was an active Sharran.) Ao had plenty of time to get the magic eraser out if he were so inclined.

Moreover, the namedropping is, once again, confined to folks who already have a patron. I don't see a bunch of practicing Sharrans or Mystrans jumping ship to Ao.

Yes, they definitely do. Chosen are still mortals, just empowered ones.

Chosen are mortal, yes; those two individuals are not.
(Not that their status matters to my larger point anyway.)

(Also, we don't even have reason to believe that Ketheric was even a Chosen prior to being resurrected and converting to Myrkul. That's irrelevant to the above, but I feel the need to point it out anyway.)

He was definitely a Chosen of Shar prior to jumping ship to Myrkul.

[diplomancer]

As do most of the Tiefling models, IIRC.

...I might spend more time on my characters' bits than their faces. Not quite as much as their hair though.



Honestly giving her a lore accurate build is kind of bad, but 5e Ranger is honestly pretty close. Like how Minsc REALLY should be a Barbarian this edition.



Which I modded out because blargh at easy mode punishments. I get why it's there, it's incredibly easy to end up with a useless build, but it's still annoying.


Anyway, already considering my next run. I'm planning on Monk, and possibly Tiefling but also possibly one of the races which gain a d10 Versatile weapon proficiency. Maybe Wold Elf to just stack speed to ridiculous amounts.

In this run, I made Lae'zel a Monk, and I'm stacking up her jumping capabilities. I gave her Athlete Feat to increase Dex to 18, and Tavern Brawler for Con to 16, running with Hill Giant Elixirs for 21 Str. It's absolutely insane when she uses step of the wind, I'm looking forward to, with a few buffs like Haste and Enhance Leap

Spoiler

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liberating all prisoners in the iron throne on the first round with her

.

If my calculations are correct and assuming maximum jump efficiency (which certainly will not happen, but still...), that would be faster than the speed of sound, by the way (her speed could be up to 600'/round, with quadruple dash -base speed 120' with Haste, Action Dash, Haste Action Dash, Bonus Action Thief Dash, Bonus Action Step of the Wind Dash- and each jump for 225'- 30' from Str, 20' from Monk 9, 50% more from Athlete makes 75', Enhance Leap makes it 225'. So she could jump 60 times, for total movement of 60X225=13500' in 6 seconds, or 2250'/second)

[Cikomyr2]

Gale is a contemporary of Elminster (who knows of and has cursed the name of Ao a time or two) and a former Chosen of Mystra, so if anybody would know about Ao, it would be Gale.

But Gale would also know that this knowledge is not widespread, so he wouldn't just casually drop it in conversation as justification.

"Hey, why cant the USA do X so solve their problem?"
"Oh, its because they know the Plhaxar Imperium would prevent them"
"Wait the what now?"

[Keltest]

But Gale would also know that this knowledge is not widespread, so he wouldn't just casually drop it in conversation as justification.

"Hey, why cant the USA do X so solve their problem?"
"Oh, its because they know the Plhaxar Imperium would prevent them"
"Wait the what now?"

Why not? Thats how he talks about everything else.

[Cikomyr2]

Why not? Thats how he talks about everything else.

Hahahaha. That is a good point.

As for Shar, i can see Lady Shar flaunting Ao's instructions. Since her worships is centered around her people solely devoting to her will for nihilistic purposes.

[Keltest]

Hahahaha. That is a good point.

As for Shar, i can see Lady Shar flaunting Ao's instructions. Since her worships is centered around her people solely devoting to her will for nihilistic purposes.

Hah. What's Ao going to do, erase everything as punishment? Oops.