MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable

[Keltest]

Yes it would. Just because you didn't recognize that monster doesn't mean nobody recognized it. I couldn't tell you its name, but I recognized it could have found it with a moderate amount of effort. Someone else probably identified it on sight. The point is, somehow the collective community had access to the information and could share it.

Some of the things I found were so obscure the only pieces of information were; 1. known to cause earthquakes and 2. part of a dead religion that was worshiped in some remote part of the world.

This probably falls into the "can be guessed" category.

Ok, but how did the collective community being able to share the name of the monster help the story at all?

[mashlagoo1982]

Ok, but how did the collective community being able to share the name of the monster help the story at all?

It doesn't help the story. I'm simply pointing out that the identity is recognizable.

As I stated in the previous post "can be guessed".

If it's something only Rich and maybe twenty other people known about, it may as well be something he made up.
It also can't be guessed.

[Tzardok]

Interesting. How similar is the 2e to it's 3.x version?

Now, I'm not an expert at reading 2e stat block, but from what I've seen the brewer of the 3.5 version tried to make it as faithful a conversion as possible. The main differences I noticed are three small details: the 2e version is Gargantuan instead of Huge (though I don't know wether the borders between the sizes have changed), it has an ability to deal extra damage to buildings that got replaced with Trample, and its Nightmare ability is psionic, instead of spell-like (and therefore not affected by the whole defiling magic thing).

If you want to compare them for yourself, you can find the stats here.

[mashlagoo1982]

Now, I'm not an expert at reading 2e stat block, but from what I've seen the brewer of the 3.5 version tried to make it as faithful a conversion as possible. The main differences I noticed are three small details: the 2e version is Gargantuan instead of Huge (though I don't know wether the borders between the sizes have changed), it has an ability to deal extra damage to buildings that got replaced with Trample, and its Nightmare ability is psionic, instead of spell-like (and therefore not affected by the whole defiling magic thing).

If you want to compare them for yourself, you can find the stats here.

Thank you for the link!

Maybe dad is 2e and MitD is 3.x?
It's an interesting thought to me at least.

[b_jonas]

Ok, but how did the collective community being able to share the name of the monster help the story at all?

The worm in #1158 is a Nightcrawler. It might not help in the story, but weird monsters like these can help us in the MitD guessing game by showing how the Giant applies the D&D rules. In this case, the D&D rules list that the Nightcrawler doesn't speak any languages, though it has a high Int. Yet in OotS, this Nightcrawler speaks in #1164 in a way that Belkar understands. This makes it less objectionable to suggest MitD candidates that supposedly can't speak.

[Keltest]

The worm in #1158 is a Nightcrawler. It might not help in the story, but weird monsters like these can help us in the MitD guessing game by showing how the Giant applies the D&D rules. In this case, the D&D rules list that the Nightcrawler doesn't speak any languages, though it has a high Int. Yet in OotS, this Nightcrawler speaks in #1164 in a way that Belkar understands. This makes it less objectionable to suggest MitD candidates that supposedly can't speak.

While that is indeed a valid point, its rather tangential to the original argument about the narrative role of the MITD.

[Crusher]

How similar is the 2e to it's 3.x version?

Very similar, just the 2E version isn't as good a fit. Not as tough or strong, and has psionic dimension door (1000' range) instead of psionic teleport.

Edit - With the last few removals, just noticed the FBS list is now down to 5 candidates, one of which is the Carb Amorph. If this was a couple years ago, I'd probably argue for adding a candidate or two. But I feel like we're getting into the endgame now and its appropriate for the list to shrink. Plus, I'm not eager for the war that would likely ensue.

Edit2 - Also, just noticed the Uvuudaum has Blindsight (500') which doesn't 100% mean it lacks eyes (and is therefore blind), but is evidence in that direction.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The worm in #1158 is a Nightcrawler. It might not help in the story, but weird monsters like these can help us in the MitD guessing game by showing how the Giant applies the D&D rules. In this case, the D&D rules list that the Nightcrawler doesn't speak any languages, though it has a high Int. Yet in OotS, this Nightcrawler speaks in #1164 in a way that Belkar understands. This makes it less objectionable to suggest MitD candidates that supposedly can't speak.

IIRC Jasdoif Doug Lampert pointed out that there is a rule that if there are no listed languages on a creature, the DM can give them as many languages as their INT bonus allows; 5, in the case of the nightcrawler. Or, in-universe, it just means that that the creature will know that many languages, just without a predilection for any specific one.

This, if anything, makes it worse for a number of candidates that are high-INT and don't have an explanation for surprise at MitD talking. It could be surprising, I suppose that they speak in common, given the many languages they could speak, but not that they are talking at all.

With the last few removals, just noticed the FBS list is now down to 5 candidates, one of which is the Carb Amorph. If this was a couple years ago, I'd probably argue for adding a candidate or two. But I feel like we're getting into the endgame now and its appropriate for the list to shrink. Plus, I'm not eager for the war that would likely ensue.

Same.

Edit2 - Also, just noticed the Uvuudaum has Blindsight (500') which doesn't 100% mean it lacks eyes (and is therefore blind), but is evidence in that direction.

Tzardok even provided a fluff quote explicitly addressing that they have no eyes. Did I forget to add it to the OP?
ETA: no, I did. The fluff says it has a tail-like spike instead of a head. But I've gone ahead and added the blindsight as further indication it probably does not have eyes.

GW

[b_jonas]

IIRC Jasdoif pointed out that there is a rule that if there are no listed languages on a creature, the DM can give them as many languages as their INT bonus allows; 5, in the case of the nightcrawler. Or, in-universe, it just means that that the creature will know that many languages, just without a predilection for any specific one.

You're right (though it wasn't Jasdoif). The rules on “Reading The Monster Entries” says “A creature can speak all the languages mentioned in its description, plus one additional language per point of Intelligence bonus. Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise).” So it's not even just creatures with high intelligence, but most creatures considered here speak at least one language per rules. I didn't know this, I thought the bonus languages based on intelligence applied only to player characters. Maybe the stereotypical big game hunters didn't know it either, because they usually hunt for big game with intelligence 1 or 2? Thank you for pointing that out.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You're right (though it wasn't Jasdoif). The rules on “Reading The Monster Entries” says “A creature can speak all the languages mentioned in its description, plus one additional language per point of Intelligence bonus. Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise).” So it's not even just creatures with high intelligence, but most creatures considered here speak at least one language per rules. I didn't know this, I thought the bonus languages based on intelligence applied only to player characters. Maybe the stereotypical big game hunters didn't know it either, because they usually hunt for big game with intelligence 1 or 2? Thank you for pointing that out.

I'm going to go all nit-pick-ity and point out that "understand" is a step under "speak". I more-or-less understand french (if spoken slowly, or if I read it) but it has been a long time since I was able to speak it in any capacity (and by "any" I mean "DELF 2"). The SBGH aren't so much surprised they are being understood as much as the creature is talking back.

It still makes little sense, mind you, but still, nits have been picked.

(Thanks for finding the post, btw)

GW

[Metastachydium]

Would it? How many people recognized, say, the big worm monster that the vampires summoned at the end of the last book? I've played D&D for years and I still couldnt tell you what it was without consulting the tomes first.

Well, there really is a little difference between something from MM, available online and for free in the SRD that one doesn't just immediately recognize and something from a 3rd party psionic adventure that someone somewhere apparently owns, as evidenced by the Xenocrysth being on the list. If you ask me, anyhow.

one of which is the Carb Amorph.

Speaking of, could someone explain to me how that teraport thing even works in the other comic? (And maybe tell me if the author of that one really named a major character after Captagon?)

Edit2 - Also, just noticed the Uvuudaum has Blindsight (500') which doesn't 100% mean it lacks eyes (and is therefore blind), but is evidence in that direction.

Tzardok even provided a fluff quote explicitly addressing that they have no eyes. Did I forget to add it to the OP?
ETA: no, I did. The fluff says it has a tail-like spike instead of a head. But I've gone ahead and added the blindsight as further indication it probably does not have eyes.

Uvuudaum talk! I bet that poor ugly wishes there was anything other than its sensory organs to talk about for once.

[Tzardok]

Uvuudaum talk! I bet that poor ugly wishes there was anything other than its sensory organs to talk about for once.

Nothing says a thingy with a spike for a head can't eat, just because it doesn't have a mouth. It's a Far Realms entity after all. Maybe it rams its head-spike just into the food and slurps up its foodness. That's why it likes stew so much; stew is easy to pierce. The letter just caused it to bleed from its spike, for papercuts are an integral part of a paper's foodness.

[b_jonas]

I'm going to go all nit-pick-ity and point out that "understand" is a step under "speak".

Hmm, that's true. The Comprehend languages spell makes a distinction, and that spell exists in OOTS (#247 6th panel).

[ElliotO]

Would you be interested in sharing how you would end the MitD’s story to the benefit of people who don’t care about D&D candidates? I don’t care about evidence or precedent, just how you would do it.

I'd have the monster stepping out of the darkness happen in the final fight at the same time that it fully decides to join the side of good, helping turn the tide of the final fight. The main plot is then resolved with little direct involvement from MitD after team evil is defeated*. (Maybe a moment in there where the start of darkness hypnosis kicks in to make it a little more complicated?)

Then we get a nice epilogue montage of characters, including one with the Monster chilling out, having fun. Perhaps he's being mentored by O-Chul as a positive father figure! Or maybe he's friends with Mr. Scruffy after Belkars death! Something wholesome like that.

Note that this works just as well whether he's a Protean, a Glabrezu, or whatever else.


*-Remember that Rich said he didn't make this up, which makes me inclined to believe that he won't have anything to do with the Snarl or IFCC

[Ruck]

I agree that pop culture presence is not a requirement. However, some type of presence of a reasonable amount in some space would help.

Yes it would. Just because you didn't recognize that monster doesn't mean nobody recognized it. I couldn't tell you its name, but I recognized it could have found it with a moderate amount of effort.

It doesn't help the story. I'm simply pointing out that the identity is recognizable.

As I stated in the previous post "can be guessed".

If it's something only Rich and maybe twenty other people known about, it may as well be something he made up.
It also can't be guessed.

The problem is, this is all subjective. "May as well be" is not the same thing as "is." And considering a creature "something only Rich and maybe twenty other people know about" is not something you know objectively; it's just a feeling you have. Similarly, "recognizable" is a subjective standard you have that isn't well-defined.

That's all well and good for your personal opinion, but it doesn't give us any real objective standard by which to evaluate a species as a fit (like, say, the powers MitD has shown do).

[Elanfanforlife]

I'll bite as I have given this some thought due to the fact I have been considering we are barking up the wrong tree assuming the candidate needs to have a DnD source.
-snip-

Have we been doing that? One of the FBS candidates is from Schlock Mercenary, so it certainly doesn't seem like it.

[Doug Lampert]

Speaking of, could someone explain to me how that teraport thing even works in the other comic? (And maybe tell me if the author of that one really named a major character after Captagon?)

It's a technological gadget small enough to easily hold in your hand which is also an effectively instantaneous interstellar drive. You disappear from here, and reappear there, even if there is 100,000 light years away. It's accurate enough that with good tracking data you can go from on the ground here to a ship's bridge there.

The power supply changes over time, but is initially a trivial number of random atoms in the material being sent being converted to energy.

There are defenses, but without defenses you can send a bomb or missile anywhere.

Amorphs can have internal equipment they control by their mind (although internal mechanisms on amorphs did not appear in Schlock Mercenary till after the MitD identity was decided, but reputedly Howard Tayler and Rich know each other and could have discussed this prior to such gear appearing in comic), so it's effectively possible for an Amorph to have an ability, which absent a defense system, is "send anything near me to anywhere in the universe I have coordinates for and want it to be".

I have no idea who Captagon is, but Captain Kaff Tagon is a major character of the comic.

[Tubercular Ox]

It should obviously fit what we know about it to a reasonable degree.

Multiple versions could be combined. Maybe there are more then one source for MitD's identity and Rich has some amalgamation.

Note that this works just as well whether he's a Protean, a Glabrezu, or whatever else.

If there is a D&D monster to fit the clues that need fitting, and Rich has a story on top of that for people who don’t care about D&D monsters, what in the top story does the monster need to fit?

I'd have the monster stepping out of the darkness happen in the final fight at the same time that it fully decides to join the side of good, helping turn the tide of the final fight. The main plot is then resolved with little direct involvement from MitD after team evil is defeated*. (Maybe a moment in there where the start of darkness hypnosis kicks in to make it a little more complicated?)

Then we get a nice epilogue montage of characters, including one with the Monster chilling out, having fun. Perhaps he's being mentored by O-Chul as a positive father figure! Or maybe he's friends with Mr. Scruffy after Belkars death! Something wholesome like that.

*-Remember that Rich said he didn't make this up, which makes me inclined to believe that he won't have anything to do with the Snarl or IFCC

What is the final fight? I picture Roy’s side vs. Xykon’s side, but neither of us think the Monster in the Dark is going to stay on Xykon’s side, and I think we’re supposed to think that Redcloak may not be there either.

If Redcloak and the Monster in the Dark betray Xykon in the same fight, do you worry there will be betrayal fatigue?

If Redcloak goes missing ahead of the fight, do you worry that the final fight will seem lopsided if it’s just Xykon and the Monster in the Dark at the beginning of it?

Or maybe Rich leans in and makes it about Xykon getting stripped of his assets and dying cold and alone? (Not literally. Green fire is probably involved.)

That's all well and good for your personal opinion, but it doesn't give us any real objective standard by which to evaluate a species as a fit (like, say, the powers MitD has shown do).

We are all here because we like the story. Rich wants us to like the story and puts significant effort into writing a story we, his audience, will like. Refusing to investigate other people’s expectations for the reveal assumes that Rich is no better than chance at entertaining us.

What does that assumption buy us? Less arguments? I don’t see it. An ability to tell others they’re objectively wrong? We do that anyways, for every other character's storyline, and in those, the only thing we can talk about are people's expectations.

EDIT:

Yes it would. Just because you didn't recognize that monster doesn't mean nobody recognized it. I couldn't tell you its name, but I recognized it could have found it with a moderate amount of effort. Someone else probably identified it on sight. The point is, somehow the collective community had access to the information and could share it.

To rephrase this, are people who don't care about D&D statistics supposed to recognize the monster, or is it enough that they learn people who do care about D&D statistics recognize it?

[Wintermoot]

all this talk about non D&D source monsters, reminds me of my top contender. It's listed in the opening post under "frequently suggested ideas", which is the Grue.

From Zork mythology, it would appeal to an old school gamer like the Giant (IMO). It would hit the right nostalgia note for both D&D and non D&D readers. It's a creature that lives in the dark, has never been seen and eats adventurers. Bosch. Sorted.

After years of exhaustive searches through D&D monsterology that has produced no sure-in candidate, frankly, at this point I expect it to be the Grue and I'm just waiting for that reveal.

[Elanfanforlife]

all this talk about non D&D source monsters, reminds me of my top contender. It's listed in the opening post under "frequently suggested ideas", which is the Grue.

From Zork mythology, it would appeal to an old school gamer like the Giant (IMO). It would hit the right nostalgia note for both D&D and non D&D readers. It's a creature that lives in the dark, has never been seen and eats adventurers. Bosch. Sorted.

After years of exhaustive searches through D&D monsterology that has produced no sure-in candidate, frankly, at this point I expect it to be the Grue and I'm just waiting for that reveal.

The main problem is that the Grue doesn't fit at all. It has never been seen teleporting other people, so the Giant would have made that up if the MitD was a Grue, and Grues are harmed by sunlight, while MitD enjoys it. Unless you have a counter to these arguments, a hypothetical MitD Grue would have been basically made up by Rich.

[Metastachydium]

It's a technological gadget small enough to easily hold in your hand which is also an effectively instantaneous interstellar drive. You disappear from here, and reappear there, even if there is 100,000 light years away. It's accurate enough that with good tracking data you can go from on the ground here to a ship's bridge there.

The power supply changes over time, but is initially a trivial number of random atoms in the material being sent being converted to energy.

There are defenses, but without defenses you can send a bomb or missile anywhere.

Amorphs can have internal equipment they control by their mind (although internal mechanisms on amorphs did not appear in Schlock Mercenary till after the MitD identity was decided, but reputedly Howard Tayler and Rich know each other and could have discussed this prior to such gear appearing in comic), so it's effectively possible for an Amorph to have an ability, which absent a defense system, is "send anything near me to anywhere in the universe I have coordinates for and want it to be".

Huh. That makes more sense than I expected, actually. How does it make eyes glow, though? It was floating behind them and has flashy leds that flash when activated?

I have no idea who Captagon is, but Captain Kaff Tagon is a major character of the comic.

I know, hence the question. (Captagon is a rather infamous stimulant known for its use by fighting forces of, let's say, usually a more unsavory persuasion as a battlefield drug.)

[Doug Lampert]

It's a technological gadget small enough to easily hold in your hand which is also an effectively instantaneous interstellar drive. You disappear from here, and reappear there, even if there is 100,000 light years away. It's accurate enough that with good tracking data you can go from on the ground here to a ship's bridge there.

The power supply changes over time, but is initially a trivial number of random atoms in the material being sent being converted to energy.

There are defenses, but without defenses you can send a bomb or missile anywhere.

Amorphs can have internal equipment they control by their mind (although internal mechanisms on amorphs did not appear in Schlock Mercenary till after the MitD identity was decided, but reputedly Howard Tayler and Rich know each other and could have discussed this prior to such gear appearing in comic), so it's effectively possible for an Amorph to have an ability, which absent a defense system, is "send anything near me to anywhere in the universe I have coordinates for and want it to be".

Huh. That makes more sense than I expected, actually. How does it make eyes glow, though? It was floating behind them and has flashy leds that flash when activated?

It wouldn't unless that's added in tOotS to show a power is in use and who is using it. tOotS eyes frequently change to show things about powers and statuses, like X for dead and swirly for mind controlled.

OTOH an amorph's eyes are actually not part of the amorph, an amorph can change shape, but it can't make working eyes. Schlock having his eyes destroyed and needing replacements is a plot point once. Once they start building gear to interface with an amorph, they could presumably build eyes that would glow when teraporting someone if anyone had a good reason to do such a thing. By end of comic (Schlock Mercenary is done) building working custom eyes would be fairly trivial.

The real problems with amorph are (1) teraporting is never shown to be tiring, even when powered by pulling atoms from the person being teraported and (B) you need to actually know where you are sending someone relative to where you are.

[Metastachydium]

It wouldn't unless that's added in tOotS to show a power is in use and who is using it. tOotS eyes frequently change to show things about powers and statuses, like X for dead and swirly for mind controlled.

Fair.

The real problems with amorph are (1) teraporting is never shown to be tiring, even when powered by pulling atoms from the person being teraported

I mean, that MitD is actually sleeping, and it's because ESCAPE tired him is kinda just a conjecture on our part, isn't it?

and (B) you need to actually know where you are sending someone relative to where you are.

Ah, and the usual issue rears its ugly head(spike) again!

[Doug Lampert]

Ah, and the usual issue rears its ugly head(spike) again!

Yeah, Wish, Miracle, or something similar is really a much better fit than teleport or equivalent.

A teraport is a better fit than Teleport Without Error, but it's still not a great fit.

[Ruck]

We are all here because we like the story. Rich wants us to like the story and puts significant effort into writing a story we, his audience, will like.

Rich puts significant effort into writing the story he wants to tell the best he can. He does not write to meet audience expectations; the audience has come because they want to read what he wants to write.

Refusing to investigate other people’s expectations for the reveal assumes that Rich is no better than chance at entertaining us.

How does it do that?

[fuschiawarrior]

We are all here because we like the story. Rich wants us to like the story and puts significant effort into writing a story we, his audience, will like. Refusing to investigate other people’s expectations for the reveal assumes that Rich is no better than chance at entertaining us.

You can ask but that doesn't mean you get an accurate answer concerning OotS readership as a whole because most readers don't post on the forum. Granted you don't seem to be searching for an accurate answer but asking because not do so would reflect negatively on Rich somehow.

For my part, I don't care what kind of Monster MitD is as I find his character develpoment way more interesting.

[Metastachydium]

Rich puts significant effort into writing the story he wants to tell the best he can. He does not write to meet audience expectations; the audience has come because they want to read what he wants to write.

That much is certainly true. He said so, in fact, and repeatedly. Interestingly enough, however, I find it important to note that one of Ox's expectations certainly had something to it on the author side of things:

I don't know that "fun" really enters into it as much as "satisfying." And for those, it's the ones where I've been imagining and laying the foundation for a singular surprise for years and I finally get to pull the trigger. Girard's pyramid blowing up one panel after Xykon arrives was a big one, as was Malack's vampire reveal. Anything where I know the strip is going to shock everyone. I've been imagining the scene for MITD's eventual reveal for like nine years now, so I expect that may be the best of them all.

…which is not entirely relevant to the conversation you two are having right now, but I stumbled across it by accident and remembered the whole discussion regarding how "it might just be a little something of little something weight", and I wanted to share.

[Ruck]

That seems to me more like a statement of how Rich expects the audience will react, not that he's writing to what he thinks they expect.

[Metastachydium]

That seems to me more like a statement of how Rich expects the audience will react, not that he's writing to what he thinks they expect.

Which is why I specified I just awkwardly used your post as a springboard to mention that I found a totally cool quote saying the Giant thinks the reveal will be SHOCKING LIKE NONE OTHER BEFORE, rather than a "little tidbit", yes.

[Ruck]

Which is why I specified I just awkwardly used your post as a springboard to mention that I found a totally cool quote saying the Giant thinks the reveal will be SHOCKING LIKE NONE OTHER BEFORE, rather than a "little tidbit", yes.

Mm, I'm not sure that's how I interpret that. The most satisfying for him, sure. Shocking and unexpected, sure - but even then we don't know why he considers it's going to be.