MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable

[Gurgeh]

counterpoint: Tsukiko's wights were under the influence of a Cleric class feature. It's entirely possible that it works differently from the Command Undead spell in terms of look and feel.

counter-counterpoint: the Command Undead spell itself seems a bad fit for the SoD scene - its duration is one day per level, so unless Xykon is constantly re-casting it then it's basically a red herring - or, at best, a way of illustrating Xykon's mentality without having any direct results in the main comic.

[Errorname]

Is there even a strong undead candidate? Something that fits the big scenes while also having the appropriate feel. I'm not familiar enough with D&D esoterica to confidently say there isn't, but I certainly can't think of anything.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Is there even a strong undead candidate? Something that fits the big scenes while also having the appropriate feel. I'm not familiar enough with D&D esoterica to confidently say there isn't, but I certainly can't think of anything.

None have been proposed so far I'd classify as strong (I.e. either FBS, ex-FBS or close-to-FBS-but).

GW

[InvisibleBison]

Since the topic of the mind control spell that Xykon cast on MitD has come up, I'd like to put forth an idea that I don't think I've seen mentioned before. The general consensus is that the mind control spell has to have an extraordinarily long duration, if it isn't outright permanent. But I don't think that's the case. Yes, Xykon phrases his instruction as "If Redcloak ever betrays me", but to interpret that as the compulsion lasting indefinitely is I think an overly literal interpretation of the text. It could just as easily mean that MitD should respond to a betrayal from Redcloak at any point during the duration of the spell. Moreover, given the context of the scene and of Start of Darkness as a whole, I think it's unlikely that the spell was ever intended to last for more than a short period of time, let alone that it's still in effect as of the current comic. When Xykon cast the spell, he had only recently reunited with Redcloak after several years apart. Moreover, Redcloak was clearly abandoning the Plan in the moment immediately prior to Xykon's reappearance. I believe that Xykon expected an imminent betrayal from Redcloak and placed a mind control spell on a convenient powerful monster as a pre-emptive counter to whatever Redcloak would attempt. However, as time went on and Redcloak didn't betray Xykon, and especially after the capture of Dorukan's castle and the death of Right-Eye, Xykon would have become confident as to Redcloak's reliability and would no longer feel the need to keep MitD under a conditional mind control spell. Thus, I don't think we can rule out any potential spell because it doesn't have a years-long or permanent duration.

[Kish]

I think if Rich didn't mean for the spell to have an effect at some point in the online comic, he would either 1) have dropped those couple panels entirely or 2) had them have a resolution in Start of Darkness.

I cannot prove that he didn't simply use a basic Suggestion spell on the creature, which wore off years ago and that was that, but I put it only slightly above "Rich handwaved that the creature could knock Miko and Windstriker through a wall even though he's not actually very strong" in terms of likelihood.

[Atomburster]

While I don't think it is likely, the post refuting ANB got me thinking: Are there viable D&D 1.0 and D&D 2.0 (or other older d&d at time of comic #100) creatures that would fit, and if so, would they violate the guessing game?

[Kish]

1) None that have ever been proposed and 2) no, if you find one that's a good fit by all means mention it. (Note that Hilgya establishes when she and Durkon are using Sanctuary to bypass Dorukan's collected earlier-edition monsters that earlier-edition monsters auto-fail any 3ed save they're asked to make, which would not, to my memory, strictly violate anything that's been established about the creature in the darkness but would make it weird that Xykon and Redcloak talk about him as massively powerful when he could be automatically removed from any fight by a low-level spellcaster.)

[b_jonas]

Hilgya establishes when she and Durkon are using Sanctuary to bypass Dorukan's collected earlier-edition monsters that earlier-edition monsters auto-fail any 3ed save they're asked to make […] would make it weird that Xykon and Redcloak talk about him as massively powerful when he could be automatically removed from any fight by a low-level spellcaster.)

As for Sanctuary, would Redcloak be able to counter Sanctuary by casting Protection from Good (or from Chaos) on the MitD? Also, if the MitD were a construct, such as a Carillion, would Sanctuary work against him?

Update: I'll note that Sanctuary is much less useful if you need to protect multiple people against the MitD than it was for Hilgya who only had to protect herself. The MitD could just eat whichever member of the Order isn't protected.

[Kish]

And if I'd said "earlier-edition monsters have this weird weakness to Sanctuary," that would address it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The general consensus is that the mind control spell has to have an extraordinarily long duration, if it isn't outright permanent.

I disagree. As far as I can tell, there is no consensus on the spell used, its duration, or if it has been reapplied. Which is why the OP concentrates exclusively on what is factual: MitD was mind-controlled, however briefly.

It also doesn't matter [to this thread]? Like, those are all story beats. Will MitD still be under geas, somehow, when RC and Xykon finally reach the breaking point? We'll see when that happens, I expect. But predicting which way that scene will go doesn't help with the base species, AFAICT.

While I don't think it is likely, the post refuting ANB got me thinking: Are there viable D&D 1.0 and D&D 2.0 (or other older d&d at time of comic #100) creatures that would fit, and if so, would they violate the guessing game?

From the thread FAQ:

Does MitD have to be a 3.5 D&D creature?

If he was updated to 3.5, yes, since conversion is automatic. But if he was never updated, he could be a 1st Ed or 2ed creature (although the latter would need a reason why he wasn't trapped in Dorukan's Dungeon with the rest of never-updated creatures).

GW

[Crusher]

While I don't think it is likely, the post refuting ANB got me thinking: Are there viable D&D 1.0 and D&D 2.0 (or other older d&d at time of comic #100) creatures that would fit, and if so, would they violate the guessing game?

An ancient Loculi is, imo, about as strong a candidate as a 1E monster can be.If it had access to Psionic Teleport (the fluff’s description of its powers suggest it should have access to it), I think it might well make the FBS list. But it doesn't’ (the stat block lists its powers and teleport isn’t there) so it’s not.

I think it fits pretty darn well.

[OvisCaedo]

The real question is, have we found the creature that has "Trenchant political analysis" in their statblock yet?

[Ruck]

The real question is, have we found the creature that has "Trenchant political analysis" in their statblock yet?

Well, you can't spell "proliticean" without "Protean"...

Okay, maybe "proliticean" isn't a word, but I don't see how that's relevant...

[Yendor]

Well, you can't spell "proliticean" without "Protean"...

You can't spell "trenchant" without "treant". Does that help?

[Ruck]

You can't spell "trenchant" without "treant". Does that help?

Well, in the sense that "trenchant" is a real word, you may be onto something.

[Peelee]

You can't spell "trenchant" without "treant". Does that help?

Sure i can. Just badly.

[hroþila]

Of course you can. Look: תרנשנט

[Crusher]

You can't spell "trenchant" without "treant". Does that help?

So, out of curiosity, does anyone happen to have the Complete Guide to Treants by Kobold Press (I think)? Came out in 2002, and an Elder Treant isn't a bad candidate if we shrink it 2 size categories (48 STR so it can handle the hit from shrinking, DR10/-, an absolute ocean of HP) except it isn't super weird looking (humanoid tree) and no explanation for the Escape Scene. However, that book apparently has Treant-specific class rules and special kinds of Treants (Flamesworn Treants are Treants that nearly died to fire and have sworn their lives to vengeance using fire so they're kinda burned up. There's also undead treants and such). Can't find a copy hiding online anywhere and if the classes give some kind of teleport then it might be interesting.

[b_jonas]

an Elder Treant isn't a bad candidate if we shrink it 2 size categories

So that would be a bonsai treant, the natural enemy of giant dwarves? By the way, which meaning of "elder" is that?

[Doug Lampert]

Of course you can. Look: תרנשנט

But you can spell it without vowels.

[InvisibleBison]

But you can spell it without vowels.

Hroþila spelled it without vowels in the text you quoted.

[Crusher]

So that would be a bonsai treant, the natural enemy of giant dwarves? By the way, which meaning of "elder" is that?

It would! We'll know if its the case after the reveal if Durkon is a lot more hostile to MitD than everyone else.

Hey, trees get old, too, you know. Where's Metastachydium to fight against this anti-plant oppression when you need them?

[hroþila]

Hroþila also spelled it using both tet and tav for reasons that escape hroþila

[Peelee]

Hroþila also can't spell Baldur's Gate without Tav.

[Metastachydium]

Hey, trees get old, too, you know. Where's Metastachydium to fight against this anti-plant oppression when you need them?

Right here (sorry for the delay; low movement rate) and still quite fond of the Wizened Elder^MM4, 3.5's resident Grumpy Arctic Little Treant! Even more on topic, while I will preface this by stressing that trees commonly live longer than humans with fewer downsides to that old age even excluding clonal colonies (no, seriously, there's this little guy who's, I believe, almost as good as biologically immortal), I will let that comment slide: the idea of an Elder Elder Wizened Elder amuses me.

[Tzardok]

The elder puns are really el-during.

[Metastachydium]

…and it would truly be a great waste not to spend the immense wealth of this veritable Elderado.

EDIT:

So that would be a bonsai treant, the natural enemy of giant dwarves?

Also, now that I think of it, that would make an awful lot of sense.

[Doug Lampert]

Hroþila spelled it without vowels in the text you quoted.

I'm aware of that, hence my comment that he could do so.

[b_jonas]

Hey, trees get old, too, you know.

I know, and treefolk get old even more so. M:tG has several treefolk that have grown old and possibly wise: Dungrove Elder, Faeburrow Elder, Leaf-Crowned Elder, Wickerbough Elder, Ancient Lumberknot, Ancient of the Equinox, Indomitable Ancients, Mossbeard Ancient, Sheltering Ancient, Timberland Ancient, Verdeloth the Ancient, Yavimaya Ancients, Old Ghastbark, Old Man Willow.

[InvisibleBison]

I'm aware of that, hence my comment that he could do so.

Yes, I misread "you can spell it" as "can you spell it."