MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable

[Grey_Wolf_c]

My problem with this thread. Where does this come from? I do not mean this as a flame.

Are you deciding yourself it cannot be included or is that just a personal opinion that does not dictate inclusion?

How is MitD being only shown when it is summoned (not every few minutes... only as needed/wanted) any less believable then protean spending half its actions maintaining its shape? Sorry... don't mean to try and discredit protean.

The guide at the top of the page suggests certain criteria be met, which Turaglas seems to meet.

Section 4a: Thread Rules
This is a curated thread, and as such obeys the following rules:

Curator

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I, Grey Wolf, am the curator of the thread.
Responsibilities:

• Maintain the thread
• Remember arguments and canon
• Answer polite questions about MitD and the thread

What I can't do

• I have no official authority
• I am not a moderator
• I cannot ban discussion of issues I consider settled
• I cannot prevent certain topics from being discussed (but I can publicly withdraw from them); however, see also section on Inappropriate Topics below
• I cannot prevent any given poster from participating (but can Ignore them)
• I cannot make executive decisions on what is or is not included in the first post outside the guidelines stated in this post.

Adding information to the first post

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To add something to the first post needs two positive votes to do so. "Positive votes" means two more people in favour of the idea than against it.

In normal operation, that essentially means convincing me to add it. The original proponent and me make the 2 votes, assuming no-one objects. If I disagree, the proponent will then need two other posters to agree with him/her (assuming no-one else but me disagrees). And so on: if 3 people are opposed, five need to be in favour, etc.

Why not simple majority? Because that is perilously close to a draw. With only one vote up or down, someone might come in a day later and vote against the idea would mean that we open the door to having to continually add and remove things from the first post - I want to prevent that as much as possible. This way, a vote against the change coming after the change still leaves a simple majority in favour of it (if would take two votes against the change after the fact for it to be reverted).

The only exception to the rule is the refreshes. When I do a refresh of the first post, I will not require to get anyone to agree with me; instead, I will publish a list of all changes as I make them, and when it is over, two objections will be enough to remove a change. For those doing the math at home, that is only one positive vote to remove it (I'd naturally be opposed, since I just added it), but since it got added only with one vote (mine), it's fair to remove it also with only one vote.

For major reworking of the first post, such as the issue with the definition of FBS, removing or adding whole sections, etc, it will need to be put to general vote. To request a vote to make a change to the OP, a proponent must obtain the backing of two other participants. The vote will then be held when the curator can set it up, or at refresh, whichever comes soonest.

[mashlagoo1982]

Section 4a: Thread Rules
This is a curated thread, and as such obeys the following rules:

Curator

Spoiler

Show

I, Grey Wolf, am the curator of the thread.
Responsibilities:

• Maintain the thread
• Remember arguments and canon
• Answer polite questions about MitD and the thread

What I can't do

• I have no official authority
• I am not a moderator
• I cannot ban discussion of issues I consider settled
• I cannot prevent certain topics from being discussed (but I can publicly withdraw from them); however, see also section on Inappropriate Topics below
• I cannot prevent any given poster from participating (but can Ignore them)
• I cannot make executive decisions on what is or is not included in the first post outside the guidelines stated in this post.

Adding information to the first post

Spoiler

Show

To add something to the first post needs two positive votes to do so. "Positive votes" means two more people in favour of the idea than against it.

In normal operation, that essentially means convincing me to add it. The original proponent and me make the 2 votes, assuming no-one objects. If I disagree, the proponent will then need two other posters to agree with him/her (assuming no-one else but me disagrees). And so on: if 3 people are opposed, five need to be in favour, etc.

Why not simple majority? Because that is perilously close to a draw. With only one vote up or down, someone might come in a day later and vote against the idea would mean that we open the door to having to continually add and remove things from the first post - I want to prevent that as much as possible. This way, a vote against the change coming after the change still leaves a simple majority in favour of it (if would take two votes against the change after the fact for it to be reverted).

The only exception to the rule is the refreshes. When I do a refresh of the first post, I will not require to get anyone to agree with me; instead, I will publish a list of all changes as I make them, and when it is over, two objections will be enough to remove a change. For those doing the math at home, that is only one positive vote to remove it (I'd naturally be opposed, since I just added it), but since it got added only with one vote (mine), it's fair to remove it also with only one vote.

For major reworking of the first post, such as the issue with the definition of FBS, removing or adding whole sections, etc, it will need to be put to general vote. To request a vote to make a change to the OP, a proponent must obtain the backing of two other participants. The vote will then be held when the curator can set it up, or at refresh, whichever comes soonest.

Thanks! I did not realize the importance of this section.

I'll be reading it through so I fully understand it.

[Doug Lampert]

Arguably pretty easily.

Not a lawyer, especially not an IP lawyer (which is its own specialty), but Snorlax is a trademark, and parody does not help at all on those. On the other hand, OotS doesn't fit any of the listed uses, and the link indicates that the trademark is abandoned, and I don't actually know what that means in the case of a trademark. [Edited to add: you can lose a trademark, in whole or in part, if you fail to defend it, but does abandoned mean that they've failed to defend it, that they've failed to refile it, or something else?]

So, I have no idea, but I wouldn't do it without consulting an IP attorney, and I have no idea if Rich has done so or not.

I think IP law is a strike against Snorlax, but I'll note that it's still on my full list of guesses which has been unfairly truncated in the list by Crusher's descriminatory little rules.

[Tubercular Ox]

Slaadi implanting people are literally framed as parenthood

This is a great example of mystery and ambiguity that is wiped clean after a reveal.

Now we wonder if this strip is intended to be a clue for the Slaad.
After a Slaad reveal, it's a self-evident assertion of Rich's opinion about Slaad parents.
After a reveal of anything else, it's just a joke.

[Peelee]

Not a lawyer, especially not an IP lawyer (which is its own specialty), but Snorlax is a trademark, and parody does not help at all on those. On the other hand, OotS doesn't fit any of the listed uses, and the link indicates that the trademark is abandoned, and I don't actually know what that means in the case of a trademark. [Edited to add: you can lose a trademark, in whole or in part, if you fail to defend it, but does abandoned mean that they've failed to defend it, that they've failed to refile it, or something else?]

So, I have no idea, but I wouldn't do it without consulting an IP attorney, and I have no idea if Rich has done so or not.

I think IP law is a strike against Snorlax, but I'll note that it's still on my full list of guesses which has been unfairly truncated in the list by Crusher's descriminatory little rules.

's why i made sure to write "arguably". You know more than i do on trademark/parody issues.

[mashlagoo1982]

Expounding further upon the bull rush idea, Turaglas would receive an additional +8 due to size category difference.

That means it would roll 1d20+21 for the STR check.

That is the equivalent to a medium creature with STR 52-53 (and no other modifiers)... does that sound correct?

Edit: Regardless, this is all kinda moot now anyhow. I found something which I don't think can be explained away. Sure, someone may accept bull rush to explain Miko being pushed away. However, Turaglas has one flaw related to this that it cannot explain.

In my own little game, try to see if you can reason it out before viewing the spoiler.

Spoiler

Show

It cannot explain the stomp scene. It has no earthquake spell or ability and it lacks the raw strength without special conditions as seen with bull rush to cause the effect viewed.

[Tzardok]

Pretty sure all the demons The Giant has shown were middle management level. Nothing in the books really qualifies for that role. The named demons princes in the books would be CEOs or board directors.

Lee, Nero and Cedrik have described themselves as archfiends, meaning they are at least minor demon lords/dukes of hell/whatever the proper title is for daemons. That means that instead of inventing your own, you could just take ones from the lists in appendixes and so on. No major princes, sure, but I never claimed they were like those.
Take Vekin for a example: a minor demon lord subordinate to Graz'zt that we don't know a lot about besides that he's for a demon impossibly loyal. So he has a relatively Lawful trait, and he serves a more powerful demon who a)is often called out as the most lawful of demons, and b) has enough power to make an inter-fiend alliance actually possible. Vekin is practically perfect for the role of Cedrik. Yet, The Giant chose to make his own demon and ignore the canonical demonic society. Why, if he didn't take this opportunity to make Vekin or Gresil or, yes, Turaglas the director of the IFCC, would he chose one of them as the MitD? Or, to reverse the question, why, if he already chose a canonical demon lord as the MitD, would he make the face of demons in the story a generic, self-invented, demon instead of another canonical demon lord? That could've been a great story about how even demon lords can be redeemed, which would only win from having a canonical enemy of Turaglas as a mirror in the IFCC, one who represents where Turaglas came from and where rejecting that path leads to.

[mashlagoo1982]

Lee, Nero and Cedrik have described themselves as archfiends, meaning they are at least minor demon lords/dukes of hell/whatever the proper title is for daemons. That means that instead of inventing your own, you could just take ones from the lists in appendixes and so on. No major princes, sure, but I never claimed they were like those.
Take Vekin for a example: a minor demon lord subordinate to Graz'zt that we don't know a lot about besides that he's for a demon impossibly loyal. So he has a relatively Lawful trait, and he serves a more powerful demon who a)is often called out as the most lawful of demons, and b) has enough power to make an inter-fiend alliance actually possible. Vekin is practically perfect for the role of Cedrik. Yet, The Giant chose to make his own demon and ignore the canonical demonic society. Why, if he didn't take this opportunity to make Vekin or Gresil or, yes, Turaglas the director of the IFCC, would he chose one of them as the MitD? Or, to reverse the question, why, if he already chose a canonical demon lord as the MitD, would he make the face of demons in the story a generic, self-invented, demon instead of another canonical demon lord? That could've been a great story about how even demon lords can be redeemed, which would only win from having a canonical enemy of Turaglas as a mirror in the IFCC, one who represents where Turaglas came from and where rejecting that path leads to.

I can't find anything on Vekin. All searches return Vecna for me... so I cannot comment on that subject.

Gresil doesn't seem like a good fit for what we have viewed with the IFCC. Gresil from a very basic glance looks like a record keeper. The IFCC come off more as planners with minor field work.

Turaglas would be far to high up to be part of the IFCC as it would answer to nobody else directly.

I was kinda hoping that the IFCC were somehow aware of MitD being Turaglas and for whatever purpose trying to reawaken it. This would be going back to MitD vs Snarl fight being the backdrop I mentioned earlier that I want to see.

[halfeye]

I saw that before. How long is "several minutes"... 5, 10, 60?

"Several" was originally "about seven".

Edit from above: Once they learned about Turaglas, could Xykon or Redcloak summon it again as desired? So, it is summoned and dismissed off panel. That would get around the limitation of minutes.

In Start of Darkness MitD is present for a considerable time (years? months?) without Redcloak or Xylon.

[Tzardok]

I can't find anything on Vekin. All searches return Vecna for me... so I cannot comment on that subject.

Sorry, I misremembered him. He's called Verin.

Gresil doesn't seem like a good fit for what we have viewed with the IFCC. Gresil from a very basic glance looks like a record keeper. The IFCC come off more as planners with minor field work.

So what? If Rich wanted, he could've written their modus operandi as one that requires a bookkeeper.

Turaglas would be far to high up to be part of the IFCC as it would answer to nobody else directly.

I disagree. Turaglas is a minor, one-note demon. The big guns, the top dogs of demonkind, those are the ones who got write-ups in BoVD and FC 1: Demogorgon, Graz'zt, Orcus, Yeenoghu, Kostchtchie, Malcanthet, Fraz-Ub'luu, Pazuzu, Baphomet, Dagon, Pale Night, Obox-ob and, at the bottom rung, Juiblex and Zuggtmoy. Everything else is minor. Turaglas got lucky when he got stats in a Dragon Mag. Putting him under someone else's authority isn't that different from giving demons directors and paperwork in general.

I was kinda hoping that the IFCC were somehow aware of MitD being Turaglas and for whatever purpose trying to reawaken it. This would be going back to MitD vs Snarl fight being the backdrop I mentioned earlier that I want to see.

And that's my point. Wouldn't that work better if the demon director also was a known canonical demon, best one that has some kind of relationship with Turaglas? Therefore, this seams very unlikely to me (also, I don't think that some fairly weak demon lord would fare better against a world-destroying, god-killing abomination than a god. The Snarl is probably a few rungs higher on the cosmic threat order than even Demogorgon or Asmodeus, not to mention any other archfiend).

[mashlagoo1982]

Sorry, I misremembered him. He's called Verin.


I disagree. Turaglas is a minor, one-note demon. The big guns, the top dogs of demonkind, those are the ones who got write-ups in BoVD and FC 1: Demogorgon, Graz'zt, Orcus, Yeenoghu, Kostchtchie, Malcanthet, Fraz-Ub'luu, Pazuzu, Baphomet, Dagon, Pale Night, Obox-ob and, at the bottom rung, Juiblex and Zuggtmoy. Everything else is minor. Turaglas got lucky when he got stats in a Dragon Mag. Putting him under someone else's authority isn't that different from giving demons directors and paperwork in general.

If it is a minor one-note demon, it is a very strong one. According to the lore Turaglas stood a chance of defeating either Orcus or Demogorgon if they had worked alone. Turaglas was so powerful that those two set aside their disagreements to team up against Turaglas.

That and the fact the Turaglas endlessly hungers so much that it often devours its own followers as often as its enemies were big contributing factors to its defeat. It does not really seem to have the awareness to even answer to anything except its own hunger.

Edit: The clerics of Turaglas are granted spells for their worship. No other demon lord can claim that to the best of my knowledge. The lore is intentinally vague as to how Turaglas achieves this though. Turaglas would also probably not know anything about its worshipers.

[Ruck]

It is by far the most common guess, it's only natural that it gets the most scrutiny.

Thinking about this some more, and I think the reason this bothers me (not that I think you're not accurate) is that i makes the criticisms feel like people are lobbying for or against a particular candidate to change the voting.

But the voting ultimately doesn't matter, because the MitD's species is not going to be decided by the vote. It's already been decided by Rich and we're trying to figure out what it is.

(i.e. what Peelee said here.)

I disagree, I think it's perfectly legitimate and actually good process to point out the flaws in any candidate (and particularly the leading one) even if you don't have a better candidate yourself.

I think this is part of the problem and the disconnect here - the apparent lack of shapeshifting is not a small, unimportant detail, it is a major flaw in the theory for anyone who is not convinced by the explanations proposed for it. Presenting it as 'nitpicking' can rub people the wrong way.

And I'm at the point where I think there are numerous plausible explanations for why we haven't seen it, and if someone insists that we have to see it otherwise it can't be the Protean, then as I've said, A)Rich is not going to give us such a dead-obvious clue when he's trying to keep the species a mystery until he's ready to reveal it, and B)If you apply that standard to every creature proposed, then none of them can be the MitD, because the MitD has never exhibited a trait as dead-obvious as the Protean's shapeshifting for any species.

As someone who has raised doubts about the Protean but lacks a better answer, the big reason I haven't gone spelunking is because I do not feel like I have the familiarity to actually have any hope of finding anything.

Neither do I. That's why I looked at the work other people have done and then put together what I thought from the clues and the story being told and came up with the answer I think is most likely, which I am satisfied with as an answer.

I regret that I can't contribute much more than doubts here, but while the Protean is the strongest candidate it's flaws keep the theory from being completely airtight for me, there's still something that feels off.

And ultimately, this comes down to "there has to be an answer." If there was a seemingly perfect fit, there probably wouldn't be any dissent in the voting. If every candidate that doesn't have an airtight explanation for everything or feels off is discarded, then we don't have any candidates.

While you're right that the Protean isn't a strong match for the hunter scene, it's also not strongly contradicted by it. It would be strange to see a creature that looked like the Protean speak at all, let alone common, it'd be an unexpected sight, it probably doesn't smell great, none of it is unreasonable to say about a Protean despite not being the cleanest match for the description.

Per my relative lack of D&D knowledge, I don't remember where I read this or who found it, but I seem to recall something about the Protean's lore in that they tend to regard other species with disdain and beneath them. So in that sense it is surprising to the Stereotypical Big Game Hunters that the Protean is talking, because ordinarily it wouldn't deign to talk to mere humans. And given the description that Proteans "normally speak only ever-evolving language impossible for any non-protean to understand," it's obviously surprising to them that one would be speaking "in Common, no less!"

I think it's been discussed several times in the past, but how would people feel if this whole time the MITD's face has been purely symbolic/artistic/for the reader's sake and not its literal face?

This has in fact been suggested before, and given Rich's actual artistic needs in portraying a creature kept in darkness and still being able to portray his expressions well and consistently, I'm fine with it.

Or with any of the other explanations.

(Here's another proposal: Maybe the magical darkness MitD is in affects him such that he only appears as two eyes in the dark no matter how many eyes he has, because Redcloak and Xykon don't want to be constantly reminded of how weird and ugly he is.)

1. this is either a guessing game, in which case making sure a shapeshifter never engages in shapeshifting, lest it be recognized as a shapeshifter is in poor form, insofar as it is essentially trolling: the one defining quality of the creature (the rest is just numbers, mostly, and while those are important in their own way, a lot of things have the raw numbers) is handwaved away unless it is convenient to happen, and even then, it is presented as it if weren't happening

As I suggested in my last post, I'd like to see you apply this "one defining quality of the creature" test to every creature in the FBS and tell me which ones pass from what we've seen in the comic. Because I'm pretty sure the answer is "zero," which I think means your expectations here are miscalibrated.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Per my relative lack of D&D knowledge, I don't remember where I read this or who found it, but I seem to recall something about the Protean's lore in that they tend to regard other species with disdain and beneath them. So in that sense it is surprising to the Stereotypical Big Game Hunters that the Protean is talking, because ordinarily it wouldn't deign to talk to mere humans. And given the description that Proteans "normally speak only ever-evolving language impossible for any non-protean to understand," it's obviously surprising to them that one would be speaking "in Common, no less!"

"Tainted with chaos at the time of their race’s creation, proteans are denied the stability that most races enjoy. This has imbued them with undying hatred of all non-shapechanging beings (they tolerate other shapechangers but look down upon them for remaining in the same shape for hours or even days at a time). Hagunemnons travel endlessly, seeking new creatures to duplicate and new extraordinary abilities to assume. Their xenophobia generally results in their attempting to slay other beings after copying them."

(ELH pg 196)

GW

[Tzardok]

If it is a minor one-note demon, it is a very strong one. According to the lore Turaglas stood a chance of defeating either Orcus or Demogorgon if they had worked alone. Turaglas was so powerful that those two set aside their disagreements to team up against Turaglas.

Contradicts the lore that no demon can be more powerful than the reigning Prince of Demons (without also being a god; then all bets are off). That's Demogorgon. Turaglas may have a small chance under some circumstances, but other minor demon lords also had a small chance under some circumstances. Anyway, forgive for not giving much heed to some first-time magazine writer hyping the subject of their article when this hype contradicts the greater lore.

Edit: The clerics of Turaglas are granted spells for their worship. No other demon lord can claim that to the best of my knowledge. The lore is intentinally vague as to how Turaglas achieves this though. Turaglas would also probably not know anything about its worshipers.

In 2e every single demon lord could do that. 3.x tried to do away with that by claiming that clerics of demon lords instead gain their power from allied deities, but it applied that in a very inconsistent way. And Fiendish Codex 1 ignored that completely and gave everyone of the princes that got write-ups their own section on their clerics and what kinds of spells and domains they grant. Turaglas is not special, except maybe in his obliviousness to his worshippers.

[mashlagoo1982]

In 2e every single demon lord could do that. 3.x tried to do away with that by claiming that clerics of demon lords instead gain their power from allied deities, but it applied that in a very inconsistent way. And Fiendish Codex 1 ignored that completely and gave everyone of the princes that got write-ups their own section on their clerics and what kinds of spells and domains they grant. Turaglas is not special, except maybe in his obliviousness to his worshippers.

I was looking at BoVD where it stated none of the demon lords presented could grant spells to worshippers. Not surprised that WotC contradicted themselves or back peddled on the lore.

Edit: Sorry but I am being a stickler for accuracy. Can it be updated on the proposed list that one of the reasons Turaglas doesn't qualify is because it has no answer for the stomp scene? I feel this is different enough from the tower scene because I could see DM fiat allowing bull rush and all the bonuses Turaglas would receive to account for what happened to Miko. These bonuses would not apply to the stomp scene and Turaglas does not have earthquake or anything similar.

[Neponde]

Hagunemnons travel endlessly, seeking new creatures to duplicate and new extraordinary abilities to assume.

I'm perhaps reading too much into this.. but would this imply a need to witness said abilities before it could replicate them? Therefore, making the spontaneous generation of an ability (such as the teleportation of V and o'chul) a unique and difficult to repeat event?

This to me makes it even more believable that it could.be a protein in the darkness.

[Peelee]

"Several" was originally "about seven".

Several, late Middle English: from Anglo-Norman French, from medieval Latin separalis, from Latin separ ‘separate, different’.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm perhaps reading too much into this.. but would this imply a need to witness said abilities before it could replicate them? Therefore, making the spontaneous generation of an ability (such as the teleportation of V and o'chul) a unique and difficult to repeat event?

That's what the fluff would imply, yes (to be clear, the actual power doesn't have any such limitation; presumably it's up the DM to decide which powers a given protean can and cannot copy). I read it as "either he has seen a creature before use such powers, or he has not". As to how that affects MitD, given MitD's rather spotty memory, that could mean, as you point out, that it makes sense that in extremis he remembers the black-hole thing he once saw in the silvery place teleport away an attacker, and is able to duplicate it to save O-Chul, but when later he tries to do a repeat performance he just can't really recall it.

Several, late Middle English: from Anglo-Norman French, from medieval Latin separalis, from Latin separ ‘separate, different’.

See also

Grey Wolf

[brian 333]

In my opinion:
When the reveal comes, there will not be things which require explaining away. The creature will be able to do all the things we saw in comic without having any other explanation. For example, "It is this creature with that magical effect," will not be required. Just knowing what it is will make everything fit logically.

To do otherwise is a cheat. "It's really a goblin with a super template," becomes possible at that point, and any attempt to guess would be futile. I have to believe that The Giant is playing it straight when he posts that we should be able to guess the creature type just by what we see in comic.

For the record: two yellow eyes in the darkness pre-dated the magical Hello Kitty umbrella.

[Ruck]

For the record: two yellow eyes in the darkness pre-dated the magical Hello Kitty umbrella.

Yes, but Redcloak and Xykon keeping the MitD surrounded by magical darkness predates the umbrella, as well.

[brian 333]

Yes, but Redcloak and Xykon keeping the MitD surrounded by magical darkness predates the umbrella, as well.

I always thought that was non-magical darkness.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I always thought that was non-magical darkness.

It is magical darkness

GW

[Metastachydium]

Thinking about this some more, and I think the reason this bothers me (not that I think you're not accurate) is that i makes the criticisms feel like people are lobbying for or against a particular candidate to change the voting.

For the record, I couldn't care less about the vote. I merely think that you (where you means 'ardent proponents of the Protean' rather than 'this guy called Ruck who's probably a mighty fine fellow for someone looking like a psycho redneck (I blame your avatar)') are wrong.

The thing about the Glabrezu wasn't about that either. It wasn't even very popular to begin with. That one simply insulted my common sense through being very obviously not a strong candidate.

B)If you apply that standard to every creature proposed, then none of them can be the MitD, because the MitD has never exhibited a trait as dead-obvious as the Protean's shapeshifting for any species.

This has in fact been suggested before, and given Rich's actual artistic needs in portraying a creature kept in darkness and still being able to portray his expressions well and consistently, I'm fine with it.

I have addressed this before. That requires eyes. That doesn't require the eyes to always be the same eyes.

(Here's another proposal: Maybe the magical darkness MitD is in affects him such that he only appears as two eyes in the dark no matter how many eyes he has, because Redcloak and Xykon don't want to be constantly reminded of how weird and ugly he is.)

And you find that more BELIEVABLE… …than the idea that he really only has two eyes, and those two are his eyes?

Meaning no offense, I feel like when you're saying "he has to be something" it means something more like "he has to be a Protean (no matter how many weird hoops we have to jump through for that)".

As I suggested in my last post, I'd like to see you apply this "one defining quality of the creature" test to every creature in the FBS and tell me which ones pass from what we've seen in the comic. Because I'm pretty sure the answer is "zero," which I think means your expectations here are miscalibrated.

You know what? I'll bite. What's the one defining quality of a Slaad that undermines portraying it as two yellow eyes in darkness? Is it that Slaadi are exemplars loyal to no master? In that case, I truly wish we had an exemplar from a similar plane inexplicably loyal to an odd employer, only to start questioning that loyalty due to a meaningful connection with a Human!

[lio45]

B)If you apply that standard to every creature proposed, then none of them can be the MitD, because the MitD has never exhibited a trait as dead-obvious as the Protean's shapeshifting for any species.

Not at all. The "standard" discussed here is "proposed creature isn't incompatible with what's been shown in the comic", and the argument made by some people is that the Protean doesn't meet that standard -- while other proposed creatures could.

[Tubercular Ox]

I never asked the Protean to do anything a Hunting Horror couldn’t, but what is happening here is wacky.

The Protean is clued against five times in one scene, but it’s not a flaw because there is no monster on deck for whataboutisms.

Protean fans reject perfectly good excuses for other monsters’ flaws as too unlikely to be true, but when certain flowers try to apply this standard to the Protean’s own flaws, Protean fans insist that arguments based on standards from 7-8 years ago should take precedence.

Protean fans demand access to whataboutisms, but refuse to take responsibility for the whataboutisms they create.

Spoiler: What about the Hunting Horror?

Show

Well… what do you do that really terrifies people?

Let’s see… I eat a lot?
(Fits a Hunting Horror -- “A great gaping maw filled with jagged, irregular teeth gapes open hungrily as it flies in search of prey.” Also, feeding it sentient creatures is the traditional way for sorcerers to bind one.)

And if Redcloak ever betrays me, you will devour him whole and spit out the gold amulet he wears.
(Fits a Hunting Horror: It has Swallow Whole.)
(Fits a Hunting Horror again: It has a printed Vomit attack to spit things out with)
---
My gods, is it talking?
(Fits a Hunting Horror: It “rarely speaks”)

In Common, no less!
(Fits a Hunting Horror: “They understand instructions given them in any language”, but there’s nothing to indicate what languages it can speak.)

I tell you, Jenkins, I never expected to see one of these in this part of the world.
(Fits a Hunting Horror: Climate/Terrain: any nighttime or sunless place, so a sunny jungle is at the bottom of the list.)

Wait, I know! Could you let me out of the box, please? I always get told that I forget to say, “please,” and, “thank you.” And “Sorry about the smell.”
(Fits a Hunting Horror: It has an Aura of Nausea and always smells.)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I never asked the Protean to do anything a Hunting Horror couldn’t, but what is happening here is wacky.

No, what is happening here is that you and Meta refuse to accept that this is a curated thread. That rules have been established via consensus on what does and does not make it to the FBS. And that there is a mechanism to change those rules that you either are not willing to employ or, in the case of Meta, openly admits does not care to engage with. There is no current rules in the FBS for excluding creatures because in your opinion the author must give a clue to the protean's changing flesh via modifying the depiction or height of the eyes between panels. And there isn't such a rule because it is exclusively based on your opinion of what the author should do, not what the RAW of the creature can do. Can the Protean keep eyes steady for long periods of time? Yes, yes it can. Does it have to change the height of those eyes? No, it does not. Is the author required to blatantly give away the guessing game? No, he doesn't.

So what is next, if you can't or won't attempt to change the FBS rules in a way everyone can agree to do? Well, you can lobby to convince sufficient people to move the creature to a different category. You are failing to do so, but it's your right to attempt it. I'd recommend, and indeed have recommended that that would start by bringing to the table an argument this thread has not been hearing repeatedly over the last decade, but that bit is where we are stuck now. Filling the thread with "Rich must show MitD changing constantly or I won't accept it could be the protean" like it's some major revelation you just came up with instead of a tired old argument we have heard a bazillion times is just not going to be effective. Either you buy it or you don't. And pretty much everyone here has already made that decision, and did so months or even years ago, and brigning it up again and again is just not going to change anything, unless you bring something new to the table.

And as for your "5 checks per scene", we are back to: this is a curated thread. Even if I agreed with your approach, it would first need consensual acceptance before it was used. And to be clear, I don't agree with your approach. First, it is blatantly obvious it's designed to fail the Protean because you dislike it. But more damningly, it sounds like a horrendous amount of work, and if put to the general vote it'll get starred* for certain, so good luck figuring out 5 tests per scene that everyone can agree to for whoever many scenes you are proposing and them applying it to 180 different proposals.

Grey Wolf

*Starred means I'd be invoking the voting-is-binding clause: if you vote for extra work, be prepared to do the extra work. If extra work is voted for, but no-one does it, the option will be discarded and runner-up will be done instead. Generally, though, I will clearly articulate which options I will expect voters to do if they win, usually on the basis of the effort involved. If I do not say anything, you can assume that I'm happy to implement every option myself.

[Metastachydium]

No, what is happening here is that you and Meta refuse to accept that this is a curated thread.

Huh?

or, in the case of Meta, openly admits does not care to engage with.

Huh?

There is no current rules in the FBS for excluding creatures because in your opinion the author must give a clue to the protean's changing flesh via modifying the depiction or height of the eyes between panels. And there isn't such a rule because it is exclusively based on your opinion of what the author should do, not what the RAW of the creature can do. Can the Protean keep eyes steady for long periods of time? Yes, yes it can. Does it have to change the height of those eyes? No, it does not. Is the author required to blatantly give away the guessing game? No, he doesn't.

I explained, in detail, why I think that and especially the bit with the guessing game is actually an argument against the Protean, if anything (and I might add that this is funny coming from the guy arguing that if the Glabrezu doesn't look like what they associate with a demon (and explicitly not even a Demon, as understood in-universe), people in-universe shouldn't be able to recognize it as such, but that's kind of a moot point right now). But I'm not sure why that's so important.

So what is next, if you can't or won't attempt to change the FBS rules in a way everyone can agree to do?

Obligatory reminder that I was actively workshopping ways to realistically improve those on the sidelines until the fall of the Glabrezu made that presently none too pressing an issue, and I'm very much open to continue such discussions. A pity "common sense" criteria can be difficult to formulate in a properly quantified manner.

And pretty much everyone here has already made that decision, and did so months or even years ago, and brigning it up again and again is just not going to change anything, unless you bring something new to the table.

So why are we all still here?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So why are we all still here?

Well, since it seems you are sure it cannot be any of the 180+ suggestions so far, I'd imagine you'd be here to propose a better fit. Or provide new insights into MitD, which, to be clear "I think it can't be the protean because the eyes are steady" is not.

Or alternatively, you really think it is a black/white slaad, in which case, what do you care if Ruck thinks it's a protean instead? Wait until the reveal, and then lord it over that you figured it out. But you can neither prove you are right before then, nor "win" whatever it is that you think you are doing with the protean. Certainly not with an argument we have heard before.

GW

[Metastachydium]

Well, since it seems you are sure it cannot be any of the 180+ suggestions so far, I'd imagine you'd be here to propose a better fit.

I'm Slaadsiding, and quite explicitly.

Or provide new insights into MitD,

And brought up two pro-Slaad arguments (implanting framed as parenthood; story arc parallelisms with Sabine, another exemplar coming from the same end of the color pool, well, pool) in as many days. If they aren't as fresh to you as they are to me, sorry. I'm not in your (I'll readily acknowledge that much) less than enviable position of having to suffer the best and the worst of these threads on a constant basis (keep up the good work, by the way!).

which, to be clear "I think it can't be the protean because the eyes are steady" is not.

And I likewise clarified that's something I don't like, but the real issue is not the fact itself, but rather the implications, as pertains to the nature of the "guessing game", in no small part, but also as far as the issue of "why gun for something complicated and contrived before eliminating, if possible, simpler options that work as good if not better as explanations".

As for my comment on the voting, what I meant was I'm not just trying to push my preferences through other peoiple's preferences in a popular vote, so I couldn't care less how many people vote for Protean as their first option, case in point being my assault on the Glabrezu which wasn't popular, just kind of stupid and a poor fit according to the criteria in place.

I'm sorry to hear you don't find me to be a helpful presence in this thread. And, at any rate, thank you for removing the latter half of your post that I quoted, because frankly, it was kinda mean.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And I likewise clarified that's something I don't like, but the real issue is not the fact itself, but rather the implications, as pertains to the nature of the "guessing game", in no small part, but also as far as the issue of "why gun for something complicated and contrived before eliminating, if possible, simpler options that work as good if not better as explanations".

Because I disagree with you in what constitutes both "simpler" and "contrived". I find the slaad evolution/reproduction cycle too contrived for MitD. I accept this is my personal opinion. But it is also a con, and as such is listed. I do not find the protean steady eye issue as contrived for MitD, but I accept this is not a universal fact, and that it is a valid con, and as such is listed. You are reversed in both of those opinions. Everyone else in this thread will have their own ranking for those two things, as well as for a bunch of others.

Just as, yes, I stand by the fact that I divide demons/devils/whatever the neutral ones are called into two groups, "those that look like traditional demons" and "those that don't", and you do not. And once that has been established, it is clearly an impasse and I'm not going to waste time trying to convince you, because I gave it my best shot and it clearly didn't work, so I moved on.

So, in short, I look at the Slaad and I, personally, not as the curator but in my personal capacity, do not see MitD as a thousand-year old creature that has gone through at least three separate colour evolutions, has any reason to remember his parent if he did, and cannot in any way be considered "not fully grown", what with white slaads being bigger than blacks and with white being Large, it's honestly hard to imagine one fitting under the umbrella (and there are no "child-sized white slaad"). None of that is simple, much of it I think would need to be very contrived to make it work with MitD; I still think it might be done for the joke, but I still think it ridiculously contrived if it is. But I do see it plausible that MitD is a very lonely protean, lost his dad at one point*, and in an effort to fit in has been trying to have a face for some 30 years now. I find that extremely plausible, story wise. And given it is within the capabilities of a protean, passes muster RAW-wise.

And you think the plausibility of those is reversed. Which is fine, but the part where you think your judgement of plausibility vs simplicity is somehow a universal yardstick is not.

And putting back my curator hat, the FBS does not exist to house creatures you personally think are not "stupid". It exists to showcase a range of options of what we have found so far. The way to curate it should be by bringing in even more candidates that fit even better, which would cause me to want to raise the bar to keep the numbers in the 6-12 range. Which is why I do now regret opening the door to just voting the ones we have out, but what's done is done.

Grey Wolf

* Heck, to tie it all together, and against my usual practice: I'll stake my claim that he lost his dad when, out in a jaunt through the astral plane, they encountered an umbral blot, and MitD was Planar Travel'ed to the jungle in the subsequent scuffle