MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable

[Ruck]

That's the key, though, "when you actually want to hurt someone." MitD didn't want to hurt Miko, he was trying to tap her lightly and failed (and him accidentally doing this before has been referred to), hitting her at some approximation of full strength. And him hitting her at full-strength is what all the analysis is based on so it doesn't really affect things.

It is?

I just assumed he was, in fact, trying to hit as lightly as possible, but is so strong (and likely not aware of that) that we still got the result we did.

To use everyone's favorite as an example, the Protean's base attack is listed as +33. Its regular attack is "Slam +54 melee (2d6+21/19-20)." And it has a strength of 53.

I don't know what any rules might be for trying to hit as lightly as possible (intentionally tanking your rolls, maybe?) but I imagine with those bases of strength and attack, even an attempt to hit lightly would carry a lot of power (particularly from someone who likely doesn't know his own strength).

Again, where is the evidence that MitD failed to hit Miko lightly and instead hit her for full strength? People keep making this assertion, but no one has provided any proof to back it up. MitD not damaging things when he isn't hitting them doesn't prove that he can hit things lightly; it just proves that he can not hit things.

Yeah, I wish I'd seen this before I posted because it covers a lot of what I wanted to say.

[Metastachydium]

To use everyone's favorite as an example, the Protean

Woe betide! I don't even count anymore!

[Tubercular Ox]

It definitely does not require a houserule, it just means he needs to fail to hit lightly. If I roll a D20 for my damage and you roll 3d6, I can hit lighter than you if I roll a 2, or harder than you if I roll a 20. I don't need a houserule for that.

What did you roll for knockback?

[Keltest]

What did you roll for knockback?

Nothing, but we already know that large strength will knock enemies back in OOTS because we have evidence of it both from Roy doing so and Mr Scruffy slamming that worg when he had the belt of giant strength on.

[Ruck]

Woe betide! I don't even count anymore!

Too late! I've decreed it, now it stands!

[OvisCaedo]

I also doubt there's any houserule in effect for "trying to hit lightly", part of the joke is probably that there IS no such rule. He can't actually hit any lighter than whatever the attack does.

What it does imply, I think, is that the MitD is not deliberately using active features to make the attack stronger. Power Attack being the most basic example of one, but I'm sure there's countless examples. But he is also kind of dumb and unaware of his own capabilities, so if there's an ability that he could feasibly have used on accident, I wouldn't entirely rule it out. What could "feasibly" be used on accident is likely to be another aspect that people disagree on, though!

[Kish]

I think it very likely that the creature did simply make a regular attack roll, because there is no mechanic for "hitting lightly." His failure to hit lightly is manifest in the holes left in the wall.

What doesn't involve house rules at all is: it wouldn't go with him trying to hit lightly at all to use a ton of Power Attack, cast Bull's Strength on himself, or in any other way hit especially hard.

[Neponde]

I think it very likely that the creature did simply make a regular attack roll, because there is no mechanic for "hitting lightly." His failure to hit lightly is manifest in the holes left in the wall.

What are the DnD rules for non-lethal attacks / damage? Perhaps in his simple mind, he tried to attack non lethally, but is simply too strong for such a possibility, and functionally wound up with a normal attack roll.

( No real way to evaluate this either, but if he rolled an attack, perhaps he neither struck his hardest, nor his lightest, but somewhere in between?)

[Ruck]

I think it very likely that the creature did simply make a regular attack roll, because there is no mechanic for "hitting lightly." His failure to hit lightly is manifest in the holes left in the wall.

What doesn't involve house rules at all is: it wouldn't go with him trying to hit lightly at all to use a ton of Power Attack, cast Bull's Strength on himself, or in any other way hit especially hard.

Yeah, like I said, I don't know the rules for the mechanics, but even so I think the simplest explanation is probably the correct one: MitD tried to play the "who can hit the lightest" game by trying to hit as lightly as he could. Rather than with a power attack, an unrelated power like Telekinetic Thrust, or what have you.

[Kish]

What are the DnD rules for non-lethal attacks / damage?

-4 to hit, does nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. Then a bunch of addenda, such as "you can't do this if your target regenerates and you're using the weapon that avoids that regeneration," "the to-hit penalty is waived if you have Improved Unarmed Strike and are striking with your bare hands and/or feet," "you can't do this with a Sneak Attack, you're either aiming for vital organs to maximize your damage or deliberately hitting less effectively than you could, not both," and "you can't do this if your weapon does fire damage instead of some type of damage that can logically be translated into a merely stunning form."

[brian 333]

I always imagined the Miko and Windstryker punched through the wall scene to be similar to the D12 is the barbarian's best friend scene where the barbarian rolls d12+537 damage and the victim is hoping he rolls low.

[Errorname]

To place my own guess in clear terms, my instinct right now is "[Something we haven't guessed yet] > the Protean > [every other proposed monster]"

The Protean still doesn't feel right to me, but of the proposed monsters it's easily the most compelling and cohesive. I do regret that I don't have a more compelling alternative suggestion than "we haven't found it yet"

[Ruck]

I always imagined the Miko and Windstryker punched through the wall scene to be similar to the D12 is the barbarian's best friend scene where the barbarian rolls d12+537 damage and the victim is hoping he rolls low.

Yeah, that makes sense to me, roughly what I was thinking. His base attack is so strong that it doesn't matter how lightly he tries to hit with it.

To place my own guess in clear terms, my instinct right now is "[Something we haven't guessed yet] > the Protean > [every other proposed monster]"

The Protean still doesn't feel right to me, but of the proposed monsters it's easily the most compelling and cohesive. I do regret that I don't have a more compelling alternative suggestion than "we haven't found it yet"

I'm open to other ideas if someone finds one, although I of course think the Protean is a pretty compelling fit. I just know I'm not going to be the one to find it, because I don't even have direct familiarity with D&D as a table game, so I wouldn't even know where to begin looking through sourcebooks, let alone where I could find a sourcebook that hasn't been considered and researched yet.

[Errorname]

I'm open to other ideas if someone finds one, although I of course think the Protean is a pretty compelling fit. I just know I'm not going to be the one to find it, because I don't even have direct familiarity with D&D as a table game, so I wouldn't even know where to begin looking through sourcebooks, let alone where I could find a sourcebook that hasn't been considered and researched yet.

I'm in pretty much the same position. I definitely think the things that make the Protean a strong candidate are what we should be looking for.

The MiTD reveal is going to need to work as a moment even if you've never heard of what it is. It needs to be something obviously cool and memorable with thematic relevance.

[Tubercular Ox]

The MiTD reveal is going to need to work as a moment even if you've never heard of what it is. It needs to be something obviously cool and memorable with thematic relevance.

The Monster in the Dark needs three things to be self sufficient (meaning it works even if you’ve never heard of what it is).

1. Importance in the plot
2. A reason why we were not allowed to know what was revealed beforehand.
3. A reason it had to be in the story before the reveal.

So, for example
1. Both the Snarl and every FBS monster has symptoms of Cosmic Horror, and Snarl Jr. was a thing even without that. What if the Monster in the Dark has a role in finishing the Snarl’s subplot?
2. What if the Monster in the Dark is drawn Snarled in some way? It does weird things to the Circus Scene, but it establishes that Rich could not have revealed it before he actually did.
3. What if the important thing is the Monster in the Dark's relationship to O-Chul? That establishes that it had to be in the story from early on.

I’m not against criticism of my example, but I put a lot of work into making it a template for other ideas to follow, so I’d like to request we move on to other ideas at some point.

[InvisibleBison]

The Monster in the Dark needs three things to be self sufficient (meaning it works even if you’ve never heard of what it is).

1. Importance in the plot
2. A reason why we were not allowed to know what was revealed beforehand.
3. A reason it had to be in the story before the reveal.

I don't agree that MitD needs any of these three things.

1. There's no reason to think MitD's identity is going to be relevant to the plot, let alone important. MitD's plot relevance lies in what he does, not what he is.
2. We already have an explanation for why MitD is kept in shadows, both in-universe and out. In-universe, the explanation is that Xykon wants MitD's identity to be a secret until he orders MitD to attack the good guys; out of universe, the reason is that the Giant decided to make a guessing game about MitD's identity. There's no need for any additional reason for MitD's identity to be kept secret.
3. Again, we already have a reason why MitD is in the story. It's because Xykon thought he'd make a good goon. There's no missing information about why MitD is in the story that his identity can be expected to reveal.

[Kish]

Indeed. The creature already has importance in the plot: he saved the life of one of the main characters. I don't believe he's done, but how big a character he will ultimately be is still up in the air (and I'm confident part of the answer will be "smaller than Roy or Xykon").

As for, "A reason why we were not allowed to know what was revealed beforehand," if you observe Greg's behavior from the moment of Durkon's death to the final strip of Blood Runs in the Family you might find an indication of how much reason Rich needs to hide things from the readers.

And for 3, the question seems to actively ignore the fact that the creature has been a character in the story since the first book. The cold mechanistic justification also exists--again, he saved the life of one of the main characters--but that justification really isn't necessary.

[Errorname]

1. Importance in the plot
2. A reason why we were not allowed to know what was revealed beforehand.
3. A reason it had to be in the story before the reveal.

I would dispute these.

I think the monster needs to be cool in a self-explanatory way, and whatever it is should reflect the MITD’s story, but what the monster is shouldn’t be what justifies his place in the story. What he does matters more than what he is

[Argis13]

I don't agree that MitD needs any of these three things.

1. There's no reason to think MitD's identity is going to be relevant to the plot, let alone important. MitD's plot relevance lies in what he does, not what he is.
2. We already have an explanation for why MitD is kept in shadows, both in-universe and out. In-universe, the explanation is that Xykon wants MitD's identity to be a secret until he orders MitD to attack the good guys; out of universe, the reason is that the Giant decided to make a guessing game about MitD's identity. There's no need for any additional reason for MitD's identity to be kept secret.
3. Again, we already have a reason why MitD is in the story. It's because Xykon thought he'd make a good goon. There's no missing information about why MitD is in the story that his identity can be expected to reveal.

Expanding on point one, whatever the correct answer is, even if you undertake the assumption his species is important to the plot, since we don't know what the plot will be, we don't have any information to test our prediction, and any plot importance you assign a given candidate is basically writing fanfic.

Serini's final trap could be a copy of Girard's dream trap, but, but that gets hit in the battle and malfunctions, and the Dream Larva's powers are exactly what they need to escape, O-Chul reaches out in his dreams to MitD, a Dream Larva and the Order gets back in the fight before Team Evil, gaining a valuable advantage to win the day!

Or the confusion aura of the Uvuudaum combined with a Mirror could force Redcloak into finally confronting the fact that he betrayed and killed his brother, and working with Xykon isn't a good way to finish the plan, allowing him to finally overcome his Sunk Cost.

Or Ruck's theory could be right, and the Protean's themes of change and identity are the point.

Or the Potted Plant could be right, and having grown so much physically, O-Chul's metaphorical rain finally causes it to grow spiritually, with the theme that nobody ever stops growing.

The point is, you can write a way for almost any creature to fit into a story that you yourself have wrote, but the MitD is going to fit into a story the Giant will write, but we can't know what that story is.

[Tubercular Ox]

I would dispute these.

I think the monster needs to be cool in a self-explanatory way, and whatever it is should reflect the MITD’s story, but what the monster is shouldn’t be what justifies his place in the story. What he does matters more than what he is

Can it be fixed? Is there a way to reword it so that it covers stories where the Monster in the Dark does something that matters?

TBH I thought it was there. I reverse engineered it from my example, and my example describes a story where the important thing for the Monster in the Dark is its character growth. I'm not sure how it's supposed to use its character growth as a tool against the Snarl unless it is doing something inspired by it. Compare Belkar.

Expanding on point one, whatever the correct answer is, even if you undertake the assumption his species is important to the plot, since we don't know what the plot will be, we don't have any information to test our prediction, and any plot importance you assign a given candidate is basically writing fanfic.

I'd like to point out that, from the perspective of someone who doesn't care about the guessing game, all of your examples have the same source: Rich's pen. There's no distinguishing one from the other without caring about candidates.

So I think the Monster in the Dark can be self sufficient while still having a candidate that's important to how Rich writes it.

The point is, you can write a way for almost any creature to fit into a story that you yourself have wrote, but the MitD is going to fit into a story the Giant will write, but we can't know what that story is.

I think it's kind of obvious that the Monster in the Dark's interaction with O-Chul is going to be important. I also think the Escape scene, as a demonstration of power perpetrated against a paladin, is enough like the Tower Scene that people will be calling it foreshadowing should it turn out that the Monster in the Dark does something huge under duress in the finale, even if it's not another Escape.

But there's still a huge hole about what the Monster in the Dark is actually going to do, so to that extent I think we agree.

[Kish]

TBH I thought it was there. I reverse engineered it from my example, and my example describes a story where the important thing for the Monster in the Dark is its character growth. I'm not sure how it's supposed to use its character growth as a tool against the Snarl unless it is doing something inspired by it. Compare Belkar.

Previously unstated assumption #something: The creature in the darkness is supposed to use something as a tool against the Snarl.

[Tubercular Ox]

Some people tell me I need to speak more naturally, but other people litigate my words like they're practicing for the bar.

When I asked Errorname if I could update the language, I was admitting it could be better.

When I said I thought it was there, I was admitting that other people didn't have to think that.

That frames everything I said as something I believe that may not have been conveyed well to others.

If I am not supposed to expose previously unstated assumption that, up to that point, I did not know other people didn't share, what am I supposed to do? Just face-tank the idea that everything I said was perfectly clear?

I have to be allowed to grow in response to criticism or this is all extremely silly.

Also, since it's demonstrated that I didn't convey it well, the tool I'm referring to is the Monster in the Dark's character growth, and it is a tool for Rich to use in crafting the story.

[Kish]

Most of what you say remains opaque, Ox, but I'm reasonably sure none of that addresses the idea that the creature in the darkness is supposed to be against the Snarl at all.

[brian 333]

We do not know if Monster-san is or is supposed to become involved with The Snarl. It is an interesting idea for which we have nothing to support or refute.

My belief has for a long time been that MitD was going to be the cause of or somehow facilitate the breakup of RC and Xylon. I have to cherry-pick events to support the idea, and there is nothing conclusive there.

Out of story, I think MitD was supposed to be revealed at the end of DCF, but the excitement generated by the forum community encouraged The Author to let it ride to the very end. He has known all along what the creature is, but there is a following who scan every page looking for clues to this one puzzle.

[Gift Jeraff]

Tracking MitD guesses

We've been thinking about the MitD's identity for quite some time now. The unmasking is probably not nigh, but its definitely getting closer (since time only moves forward, as far as I know). Since these threads sometimes run for a long time (a recent one ran for almost 2 years), its entirely possible the great unveiling will occur before this thread finishes so its time to get formal about it.

This post will track the guesses of anyone who cares to make a guess, along with when they made the guess (and I'll probably track guess histories as well, unless people object). If you want to make a guess, you can either post it in the thread or message me. I'm pretty thorough about reading the thread, but I miss things occasionally so feel free to remind me.

Well, I've been reading this comic since I was in high school. I am now in my 30s and am among the only ones in my friend circles who has yet to settle down, but I guess I could at least settle on a MITD prediction. That way I can't just lie and say I called it for any answer when the reveal finally happens.

Protean > Hunting Horror > The Big Show

My rationale for the Protean: (spoilered because it's basically just me rambling incoherently and I don't intend on defending any of my points; this post is basically just a summary of what I've told myself to make my final decision [maybe])

Spoiler

Show

While I've gone back and forth on the Protean over the years, as the story has progressed and we've seen more and more weird-looking monsters (Sunny, Lancer, Serini's froghemoth, Zz'dtri's piscodaemon, an otyugh) which provoke little to no reaction from the cast, it has become hard for me to accept simply a freaky-looking monster as an explanation for the circus scene and Xykon's reaction to MITD (this also plays a big role in why the Glabrezu is not in my top 3 choices anymore). I think I can I really only accept something really out-there like a constant shapeshifter or something completely out of the comic's art style. And as time has gone on, I find it less and less likely that we will see the latter (for a long time I half-expected the Snarl to be depicted in a crayon art style to emphasize both how alien it is to the vector-based setting and give it a more primordial vibe). Since that didn't happen and Rich hasn't used the billion worlds twist to show off past settings having different art styles, it would be very weird to introduce that concept now for anything beyond a one-panel gag. Now you could say Mimi's hands are doing just that right now, but eh, that's more a joke about AI art than it is about different art styles looking abominable to the stick figure characters.

I've always leaned heavily toward the MITD being either an aberration or magical beast; it just feels right to me. The introduction of a Beast Heart Adept as a character heavily connected to him and offering a future at her side has only reaffirmed this feeling.

Rich confidently saying that the MITD's identity will be satisfying in 2016 makes me think it has to be a really good punchline and/or really significant character-wise. While I can see the humor in MITD being a pitch-black creature like a Black Slaad or Zodar when it steps out of the darkness...without getting into forbidden topics, I also kinda see how that could potentially be seen as offensive. And a pop culture reference, regardless of how clever, just doesn't seem like something "Modern Rich" would be so confident in saying has been worth the anticipation. So I lean toward the MITD's identity being a big deal character-wise, which to me points toward either "a fiendish creature managed to turn Good" or basically exactly what Ruck said about "you can be whatever you set out to be."

However, I can also see some potential comedy in the Protean: a constant shapeshifter with no defined shape does kinda feel like a decent punchline to a mystery monster. It would be like "Who's that Pokemon?" with the silhouette changing to reveal it was just a Ditto. I could even imagine 2004 Rich snickering to himself envisioning future scenes that would give contradictory details about the MITD's shape, but perhaps as time went on and he realized that given the time left until the reveal and how analytical his fans are, such scenes would end up spoiling it too early so we never really got moments like that beyond possibly the climax of Book 1 where his eyes seem to be strangely lower to the ground. There's also potential for someone like the demon-roaches to crack a joke about how the author kept him in the shadows as an excuse to not have to draw a creature whose design changes every panel. (As an aside, I can see Modern Rich welcoming this challenge, given all he has said about the Book 6 art shift).

I also think that, compared to most viable candidates, a Protean would be easy for people completely unfamiliar with the monster to get the basic idea of the creature's capabilities without having to cram in awkward dialogue where Redcloak/Oona/O-Chul/Serini/whoever tells us what it can do. Although it just occurred to me as I was typing this that the roaches could provide the audience explanations for the monster without it feeling forced--they're already sort of treated as "out of the story" to a certain extent.

The "My gods, is it talking? In Common, no less!" line has always been a big deal in my book and I'm kinda split on whether or not a Protean satisfies it. Yes, you'd be surprised that a Protean is choosing to speak in an ordinary language, but would you really be surprised that it can speak in the first place? The line has always made me look toward creatures with a similar descriptor as the yeth hound--"[creatures] cannot speak, but understand [language(s) other than Common]." It's been like a decade since I did anything resembling a deep dive into such monsters, but from what I recall there was nothing that came close to satisfying the MITD's other major scenes.

I've also never fully sat well with the Protean with regards to the Escape scene. It's not that I have a problem with a timely shapeshift or even the "Psionic Greater Teleport via conversaion as per Expanded Psionics" idea. It's just that I don't think Teleport works with the scene all that well. It really does feel like a Wish to me. However, I am starting to warm up to the idea that the MITD's box is dimensionally anchored/locked. In a setting like this, of course Stereotypical Big Game Hunters would have to account for the various creatures that can teleport, so the box being a magic item with that kind of property honestly doesn't feel like a big stretch.

Now when #1042 first came out, I sort of got off the Protean train after O-Chul's comment to Lien about how she wouldn't believe his theory if he told her (since, going by the rules of this universe, I assume O-Chul is 100% correct in his guess). I don't really see what Lien would find so unbelievable about Xykon having an Epic monster follow him around. The line pushed me more towards a fiend (Lien wouldn't believe that a creature literally made of Evil managed to join the Good Guys; also goes well with the running bit about O-Chul out-paladining Lien) or a pop culture gag (i.e. you wouldn't believe that all this is building up to what some regard as the lowest form of comedy). But in my most recent reread, it occurred to me that O-Chul could simply be saying that the MITD's other character traits would be hard for Lien to envision a Protean doing (having a tea party, being polite/well-behaved/following orders, letting Redcloak push him around despite how much stronger he is, etc.).

And finally, I personally just think the Protean is really cool and I can imagine 1 panel where it looks near-identical to the official drawing minus the leftmost eye and with the other 2 eyes being replaced with the iconic yellows eyes.

[mashlagoo1982]

While I do think Turaglas is a good fit, there is another reason I want it to be the identity of MitD. Through whatever series of events it requires, I want the Snarl and Turaglas to end up in an epic battle. Ideally it would be the backdrop to the battle between Xykon + company and OotS + company.

But the idea of seeing the physical manifestation of anger, constructed from the raw threads of creation fighting it out against the physical manifestation of hunger, born from the infinite layers of the abyss seems like it would be awesome to behold... like the climatic stage to host the fight between Xykon and OotS.

Also, any chance of getting Turaglas entry updated in the proposed ideas?
I feel like the information presented is outdated.

Edit: No, I am not casting a vote for Turaglas.

[flat_footed]

I don't have much to contribute in terms of theory crafting, but the discussion is a fun one to follow.

Throw my vote to Protean, such that it is.

[Crusher]

Edit: No, I am not casting a vote for Turaglas.

Aw, c'mon. Not even 3rd?

Throw my vote to Protean, such that it is.

So noted.

Protean > Hunting Horror > The Big Show[/SPOILER]

Also noted. You've never struck me as someone with difficulty committing to things, you just wait until you've got things figured out.

[mashlagoo1982]

Aw, c'mon. Not even 3rd?

I'll give it a vote, but not because I think it is the best fit.

I just want to see that epic battle occur.

[Crusher]

I'll give it a vote, but not because I think it is the best fit.

I just want to see that epic battle occur.

Excellent. Feel like putting anything you'd consider a better fit first/second, or just the one?