MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable

[Doug Lampert]

A fair assumption, of course, given that while changing size tends to correlate with changes to Strength, those values are not neccessarily taken into account (v. Enlarge/Reduce Person).

As enlarge or reduce person show, the specific mechanism for changing size also lists the ability changes that it causes (reduce person is -2 to strength for a reduced size category).

The table is for size changes due to increased HD on a monster, applying it blindly to all size changes has no rules support.

The reason the FBS scales strength for size changes down is not because of some general rule that size changes from any cause scale by that table, it's because we've got exactly two examples of monsters that scale down from adult size due to youth in the rules, and giants lose exactly 8 strength per size category while dragons lose approximately 8 strength per size category and no change seems unreasonable. Scaling the MitD down in size if it is too big to fit under the umbrella means either houseruling or the dungeonbred template, and if Rich is houseruling down size, then it's not unreasonable to expect him to also houserule down strength, as the examples in the rules of that happening show.

But a listed (Ex) ability? That HAS its rules listed in the ability, and says nothing about losing size. And even if it said, "Scale strength based on size as per the size increase table in the improving monsters section of the MM (you'll need to calculate this yourself, reduce rather than increase for smaller sizes)", that still would give 35 strength at fine, which is enough to make smashing someone through a wall by pure strength plausible.

[Ruck]

Can someone break down for me why a shapechanger in general, and a protean in particular, would go from +21 damage on their attack to 1+6 because of changing size? 'Cause I don't see a reference to strength changing with size, only the attack bonus (which goes up, presumably because every target is now much bigger, from their new perspective). And the protean explicitly says that he retains its own base attack bonus and Strength modifier to damage when using other shapes' attack types. I tried to figure it out myself but I got lost in the interaction between natural weapons, unarmed strikes and off-hand attacks.

Grey Wolf

Bolding for emphasis.

Huh. Yes, that really is a fairly good argument against a shapechanger capable of altering its size and developing attack forms other than its standard fare at a moment's notice.

Maybe it's too busy manifesting a form with two fixed eyes to manifest as anything smaller than it is. 'Although, it did manifest its eyes at the same time as carrying O-Chul. And it held to its eyes while manifesting the Umbral Blot. So maybe it can manifest specialized limbs while maintaining its eyes.

Also, there's the sticking point that if MitD could willingly change its size and so minimize the damage he deals, and did do so, we should have been able to observe the massive change in size.

"A protean can assume the shape of any combination of physical nondeific creatures at the same time as a free action."

(emphasis mine)

I don't know why you assume that the Protean would definitely change size when it shifts. If it consciously changes into a single creature, sure, but a)I see no reason why we should assume MitD would do that here, and b)We have loads of evidence the MITD doesn't even know what he is or how he does the things he does, which makes it even less likely he would purposely shift into a smaller/weaker creature-- because he doesn't know how his powers work or how to control them.

It reads to me like "MitD is not a Protean because he didn't change size/shape in the way I assumed he would, even though he doesn't even know what he is or that he can do that."

[Crusher]

MitD should be constantly breaking things if he really had that poor self-control. And yet he is not. He does handle delicate things and he doesn't break them all the time. I thus find "MitD can't control his strength at all" unpersuasive.

I mostly agree with your points, but I quibble with this one. Just because he might sometimes accidentally break things (as his reputation says he does), doesn't mean he always does. Other than, ironically, Miko herself, I can't think of a time when he's smashed something accidentally on-screen but we're told its something he does. So, maybe he *does* break half the bowls he eats popcorn from, it just happens off-screen and isn't considered a big deal because they're just bowls.

I agree with the logic, but much like the earthquake ability, its been a tough time finding any ability that can send someone flying without maiming them in the process.

I did the math on this a while back, and, using real-world physics, if you punch (rather than push) someone so hard you actually knock them up in the air (rather than just knocking them over) you're almost certainly going to inflict massive internal injuries, because you have to hit someone HARD to do that.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I mostly agree with your points, but I quibble with this one. Just because he might sometimes accidentally break things (as his reputation says he does), doesn't mean he always does. Other than, ironically, Miko herself, I can't think of a time when he's smashed something accidentally on-screen but we're told its something he does. So, maybe he *does* break half the bowls he eats popcorn from, it just happens off-screen and isn't considered a big deal because they're just bowls.

I'm confused. That's my point as well: I don't think the argument that he hit hard because he can't control his own strength is plausible, because if it was, we would see him break things all the time. And yet, like you (and I) point out we don't, thus why I don't think the argument holds water. Instead, I think he failed at hitting light because the lightest that MitD can hit is still hard enough to punch horses through walls.

I did the math on this a while back, and, using real-world physics, if you punch (rather than push) someone so hard you actually knock them up in the air (rather than just knocking them over) you're almost certainly going to inflict massive internal injuries, because you have to hit someone HARD to do that.

Yeah, but OotS most definitely doesn't run on real world physics. V's body was used to demolish a mountain and it barely scuffed them. And that's before going into the relative hardness of rock vis-a-vis humanoid flesh.

GW

[Peelee]

Stop encouraging the Dragon Mod!

l
NOBODY LISTEN TO THE FLOWER.

[Tubercular Ox]

So if the threads of creation instantly liquify people, maybe Rich is trying to create a connection between the threads of creation and the Protean's Destabilize Form ability, that instantly liquifies people.

[Metastachydium]

Yeah, but OotS most definitely doesn't run on real world physics. V's body was used to demolish a mountain and it barely scuffed them.

Come on, that was barely a rock!

"A protean can assume the shape of any combination of physical nondeific creatures at the same time as a free action."

(emphasis mine)

I don't know why you assume that the Protean would definitely change size when it shifts.

It wouldn't and I don't. That's not my point.

If it consciously changes into a single creature, sure, but a)I see no reason why we should assume MitD would do that here, and b)We have loads of evidence the MITD doesn't even know what he is or how he does the things he does, which makes it even less likely he would purposely shift into a smaller/weaker creature-- because he doesn't know how his powers work or how to control them.

It reads to me like "MitD is not a Protean because he didn't change size/shape in the way I assumed he would, even though he doesn't even know what he is or that he can do that."

The point is, the shapeshifting itself might be the main selling point of the Protean, but it is also its main weakness. See, the Monster never ever once exhibits any clear sign of shifting its shape, which is odd, given how (as you have just cited), it changing its features is a trivial non-action, whereas maintaining them has an actual action cost. So… What do we even have here?

a. The Monster has no control over its shapeshifting whatsoever, because he doesn't understand it. In this case, how he always has two eyes and an appendage at a fixed position, the former having a fixed appearance, as well as always having a mouth-equivalent orifice seemingly at a fixed position when he appears to insert things into it is mighty odd.

OR

b. The Monster can consciously control its shape. An assumption readily contradicted by his own admissions of no understanding.

OR

c. It's vibes-based and instinctive, with features manifesting to cater for his needs without him understanding how the process works. In which case it is odd that he can apparently partial-transform into an Umbral Blot to use an obscure ability he has trouble even naming properly, but when he simply tries to hit lightly, he doesn't even get smaller, although he could trivially achieve that. (I presented the math: it doesn't take weird epic abilities for a full Protean to reduce the damage output of a single hit to a measly 1+11 points.)

[mashlagoo1982]

c. It's vibes-based and instinctive, with features manifesting to cater for his needs without him understanding how the process works.

This got me thinking about two of the instances where MitD displayed some of its power.

In one instance where it launched Miko, she wanted to hit it harder to overcome what she perceived as DR.

For the Escape scene, I think it is safe to assume V and O-Chul wanted to flee.

Maybe somehow MitD picked up on both of those. Instead of hitting lightly when attacking Miko, it sensed Miko's true desire to attack at full strength and (without its own knowledge) MitD attack back at full strength itself?

The reading of desire obviously worked out better for V and O-Chul. They wanted to get away from Xykon and lived.

I have no idea if there is a creature that could do this... but it is an interesting thought to me.

I wonder if there are other examples of this behavior. The stomping scene doesn't fit this observation. Unless it was reading the desire of the demon roach, probably not though.

tldr: Maybe MitD mirrors some feats/powers/strength/etc based on what individuals want or desire? We would probably would see different behavior from MitD with it being around Xykon. I think it's known Xykon desires MitD to be more ruthless (and it isn't).

[Tubercular Ox]

Maybe somehow MitD picked up on both of those. Instead of hitting lightly when attacking Miko, it sensed Miko's true desire to attack at full strength and (without its own knowledge) MitD attack back at full strength itself?

The Protean does have detect thoughts at will and the ability to have access to its powers only when it wouldn't embarrass it to have them, so we can probably ignore why it didn't use this ability on Xykon here.

[Sky_Schemer]

I am still on Team Slaad. When I read through that list of cons, they all stem from fluff rather than crunch, and fluff is much easier to change for the story. And there has been enough variation on Slaads over the years that there is plenty of wiggle room. And unlike proteans, a slaad is going to be recognizable. If it's a protean, I suspect most people are going to be scratching their heads at the reveal.

The only major objection is about it possibly being product identity, but Sunny's place in the current storyline undercuts that one pretty significantly.

And for that last reason, I am also on Team Snorlax. Mostly because I just really want it to be a Snorlax.

[Somniloquist]

And I'm also Team Snorlax, but put my vote down as Uvuudaum, if only because it's far more bizarre-looking.

[Crusher]

I am still on Team Slaad. When I read through that list of cons, they all stem from fluff rather than crunch, and fluff is much easier to change for the story. And there has been enough variation on Slaads over the years that there is plenty of wiggle room. And unlike proteans, a slaad is going to be recognizable. If it's a protean, I suspect most people are going to be scratching their heads at the reveal.

The only major objection is about it possibly being product identity, but Sunny's place in the current storyline undercuts that one pretty significantly.

And for that last reason, I am also on Team Snorlax. Mostly because I just really want it to be a Snorlax.

So, are you saying your guess is that its approximately equal between Slaad and Snorlax, or are you primarily on Team Slaad and only secondarily on Team Snorlax?

And I'm also Team Snorlax, but put my vote down as Uvuudaum, if only because it's far more bizarre-looking.

So noted!

I'll probably update the league tables soon-ish.

[Peelee]

So, are you saying your guess is that its approximately equal between Slaad and Snorlax, or are you primarily on Team Slaad and only secondarily on Team Snorlax?

Snorlaad?.

[Ruck]

See, the Monster never ever once exhibits any clear sign of shifting its shape, which is odd, given how (as you have just cited), it changing its features is a trivial non-action, whereas maintaining them has an actual action cost. So… What do we even have here?

a. The Monster has no control over its shapeshifting whatsoever, because he doesn't understand it. In this case, how he always has two eyes and an appendage at a fixed position, the former having a fixed appearance, as well as always having a mouth-equivalent orifice seemingly at a fixed position when he appears to insert things into it is mighty odd.

I'm sure I've said this many times before, but "Why doesn't Rich draw the MitD in a way that makes it obvious what he is?" is an argument that's easily rebutted by the whole concept of keeping his species a mystery.

[Errorname]

I'm sure I've said this many times before, but "Why doesn't Rich draw the MitD in a way that makes it obvious what he is?" is an argument that's easily rebutted by the whole concept of keeping his species a mystery.

Right, but having to really bend the physical appearance of the monster so that it doesn't make it's identity obvious is a major con of the Protean. It might not be a dealbreaker, but it is a drawback.

[brian 333]

I'm sure I've said this many times before, but "Why doesn't Rich draw the MitD in a way that makes it obvious what he is?" is an argument that's easily rebutted by the whole concept of keeping his species a mystery.

He doesn't want to ruin the Guess MitD's Species game in the twenty-something threads over the years since MitD first spoke from the shadows. I mean, there are readers who regularly check the comic hoping this time they will discover The Clue™ that allows them to win the game!

[Tubercular Ox]

I'm sure I've said this many times before, but "Why doesn't Rich draw the MitD in a way that makes it obvious what he is?" is an argument that's easily rebutted by the whole concept of keeping his species a mystery.

Why would it be obvious? There are so many shapechanging monsters they get their own subtype. People could be sweating through those as avidly as they sweat monsters that can pass the Circus Scene.

Why is the Circus Scene not "making it obvious" but showing even one alternate set of eyes is?

Personally I think Rich is working to show us the right monster's abilities, one by one, and the extent to which he hides them is to simply not say their names.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Right, but having to really bend the physical appearance of the monster so that it doesn't make it's identity obvious is a major con of the Protean. It might not be a dealbreaker, but it is a drawback.

One that has been listed in the OP for quite literally over a decade. So at the very least, I really wish those that dislike the protean would come up with either a new objection, or cease retreading old ground. Yes, we get it, they don't like it because they feel that a creature frequently accused of being lazy might have been spending every move action retaining a face to fit in is implausible. But coming here to tell us "I don't buy that it's a protean because there is no overt evidence of changing shape" like this is some major revelation become boring... I don't know, six or seven years ago now?

Grey Wolf

[Tubercular Ox]

Why is it a surprise that it’s talking?
Why is the Jungle a surprising place to find it?
Why does it smell?
Why don’t the goblins recoil in abject horror at the sight of it?
Why does Xykon think it can swallow things whole?
Why does Xykon think it can vomit the amulet back out?
Why does it break its toys?
Why isn’t it as scary as it should be?
Why can’t it figure out what a Gate is?
How does it shout, “STOP!” ?
How does it do the earthquake?
Why does it hope for things and expect them to happen?
Why does Rich keep telling jokes about it eating sentients?
Why was its father really big? All Proteans are Large.
How does it know Tsukiko has half a ritual?
How does it know what the Astral Plane is?
Why does Oona call it a beast? It’s a monstrosity.
How does it manage trenchant political analysis?
What did Xykon read that made him think the Monster in the Dark wants to eat dwarves?

The Protean can answer none of these with its character sheet. Nearly the entire case for the Protean is a game of pretending that the stuff the thread makes up must be what Rich made up, which itself is premised on the idea that Rich made the Monster in the Dark a Therblewurkersaurus in a dozen scenes so that it could be a Protean in three.

[Errorname]

One that has been listed in the OP for quite literally over a decade. So at the very least, I really wish those that dislike the protean would come up with either a new objection, or cease retreading old ground.

For the record, I quite like the Protean, I think it's the strongest of the proposed candidates by quite a bit. But the shapeshifting thing is still a pretty big hitch, and it's what's keeping me from going all-in on the Protean.

Why would it be obvious? There are so many shapechanging monsters they get their own subtype. People could be sweating through those as avidly as they sweat monsters that can pass the Circus Scene.

If the monster was obviously a shapechanger that narrows down the possibilities to a specific subtype of monster, which would drastically reduce the number of viable candidates and make it a lot more obvious.

[Ruck]

Right, but having to really bend the physical appearance of the monster so that it doesn't make it's identity obvious is a major con of the Protean. It might not be a dealbreaker, but it is a drawback.

I don't agree it "really bends" anything. We see two eyes in the dark. We don't know what's going on underneath that.

Why would it be obvious? There are so many shapechanging monsters they get their own subtype.

How many of them fit the other scenes? How many of them have shapechanging powers that work in the particular manner of the Protean's?

Why is it a surprise that it’s talking?
Why is the Jungle a surprising place to find it?
Why does it smell?
Why don’t the goblins recoil in abject horror at the sight of it?
Why does Xykon think it can swallow things whole?
Why does Xykon think it can vomit the amulet back out?
Why does it break its toys?
Why isn’t it as scary as it should be?
Why can’t it figure out what a Gate is?
How does it shout, “STOP!” ?
How does it do the earthquake?
Why does it hope for things and expect them to happen?
Why does Rich keep telling jokes about it eating sentients?
Why was its father really big? All Proteans are Large.
How does it know Tsukiko has half a ritual?
How does it know what the Astral Plane is?
Why does Oona call it a beast? It’s a monstrosity.
How does it manage trenchant political analysis?
What did Xykon read that made him think the Monster in the Dark wants to eat dwarves?

The Protean can answer none of these with its character sheet.

Quite a few can indeed, just off the top of my head. The language one certainly. The intelligence and detect thoughts at will for some of the others. Others I do not understand how they are a question. ("How does it shout 'STOP'?" With a voice, which it has.) Others yet I don't think necessarily have anything to do with its species, or even will be answered. ("What did Xykon read that made him think the Monster in the Dark wants to eat dwarves?" Who knows? What does it matter? Xykon and Redcloak think the MitD eats a lot and will eat anything, we know that.)

One that has been listed in the OP for quite literally over a decade. So at the very least, I really wish those that dislike the protean would come up with either a new objection, or cease retreading old ground. Yes, we get it, they don't like it because they feel that a creature frequently accused of being lazy might have been spending every move action retaining a face to fit in is implausible. But coming here to tell us "I don't buy that it's a protean because there is no overt evidence of changing shape" like this is some major revelation become boring... I don't know, six or seven years ago now?

Grey Wolf

Yeah, I should just stop because we're just rehashing the same things over and over at this point. I just get a little frustrated by arguments that misrepresent the Protean's powers or essentially ask "If the MITD is a Protean, why hasn't Rich shown us the most defining and distinctive characteristic of that species, which he is trying to keep a secret?"

[Errorname]

I don't agree it "really bends" anything. We see two eyes in the dark. We don't know what's going on underneath that.

Yeah, really bends is an overstatement, and in truth I could easily see a protean design that kept the eyes consistent just so that the character would have some familiar point of reference. It's something which doesn't sit right with me, but that doesn't mean it's a dealbreaker. The eyes in general aren't particularly diagnostic. They were introduced well before the monster's identity was decided and it'd be pretty easy to incorporate them into a design that didn't explicitly feature them. Like if MITD was the red-eyed Athasian Nightmare Beast for example, I could easily imagine the final design being drawn with Lammergeier-style eyes with yellow irises and red sclera to mesh the description with how the monster has been portrayed.

[Tubercular Ox]

The language one certainly.

They can speak and understand the language of any other creature. It's only surprising when the Therblewurkersaurus speaks common.

The intelligence

And the Therblewurkersaurus has Knowledge (arcana), so Tsukiko's ritual is covered.

detect thoughts at will for some of the others.

If it's so easy for it to use detect thoughts that Rich doesn't even have to signal that it's using any ability at all, why can't it use detect thoughts in the scene where it's trying to please Xykon and can't figure it out? I guess the Therblewurkersaurus doesn't have detect thoughts?

Others I do not understand how they are a question. ("How does it shout 'STOP'?" With a voice, which it has.) Others yet I don't think necessarily have anything to do with its species, or even will be answered. ("What did Xykon read that made him think the Monster in the Dark wants to eat dwarves?" Who knows? What does it matter? Xykon and Redcloak think the MitD eats a lot and will eat anything, we know that.)

The Therblewurkersaurus has a powerful voice. The Therblewurkersaurus has books written about its love for dwarves. The Therblewurkersaurus is always hungry.

Your story is that Rich wrote a Therblewurkersaurus that sometimes looks like a Protean.

"If the MITD is a Protean, why hasn't Rich shown us the most defining and distinctive characteristic of that species, which he is trying to keep a secret?"

Then maybe he should've shown some of the less obvious features of the Protean, instead of writing a Therblewurkersaurus:

Spoiler: Fitting the story without giving it away

Show

spell resistance
destabilize form

Its entire SLA list: detect thoughts, dimension door, ethereal jaunt, knock, nondetection, plane shift, suggestion.

Its entire skill list: Bluff +59, Diplomacy +53, Disguise +59, Hide +35, Intimidate +47, Jump +29, Listen +55, Move Silently +35, Sense Motive +29, Spot +55

Its entire feat list: Alertness, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Endurance, Great Cleave, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Multiattack, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (slam), Blinding Speed, Devastating Critical (slam), Overwhelming Critical (slam)

If Rich isn't going to show the most defining and distinctive characteristics, and he prefers to invent useless details instead of using actual details of the Protean, then the guessing game is dead.

[Metastachydium]

I'm sure I've said this many times before, but "Why doesn't Rich draw the MitD in a way that makes it obvious what he is?" is an argument that's easily rebutted by the whole concept of keeping his species a mystery.

If the Protean's main selling point makes it a poor fit on account of it being
a. either too difficult to guess becasue it cannot be accurately depicted without spoiling the game; or
b. too easy to guess if depicted accurately
that doesn't make pointing that out a poor argument. It makes the Protean a poor fit.

I don't agree it "really bends" anything. We see two eyes in the dark. We don't know what's going on underneath that.

We never see anything clearly indicating constant shapeshifting (or even occasional shapeshifting), but we do see things staying constant (rough size, the eyes, having an umbrealla-supporting appendage, having a mouth-equivalent something-something, all with basically unchanging positions…) which tells us that… Constant shapeshifting is going on?

Yeah, I should just stop because we're just rehashing the same things over and over at this point. I just get a little frustrated by arguments that misrepresent the Protean's powers or essentially ask "If the MITD is a Protean, why hasn't Rich shown us the most defining and distinctive characteristic of that species, which he is trying to keep a secret?"

You're frustrated over people asking "why a creature that is constant shapeshifting incarnate never seem to do that"? I find that baffling, myself. The shapeshifting is the entire reason why the Protean is a better candidate than most other epic bull**** creatures.

[Tubercular Ox]

You're frustrated over people asking "why a creature that is constant shapeshifting incarnate never seem to do that"? I find that baffling, myself. The shapeshifting is the entire reason why the Protean is a better candidate than most other epic bull**** creatures.

And the reveal isn't even going to fix it. Now we know it's a Protean and we still have to wonder why Rich didn't just write it better, with even a single hint of its shapeshifting.

I've always tried to see the story as it's going to exist after the reveal. I can't see people looking at the story, knowing it's a Protean, and thinking that Rich did anything but squander his resources on a dozen red herrings that did nothing but sell the Protean as something it isn't. It just doesn't fit.

[InvisibleBison]

And the reveal isn't even going to fix it. Now we know it's a Protean and we still have to wonder why Rich didn't just write it better, with even a single hint of its shapeshifting.

How exactly could the Giant hint at MitD being a shapeshifter without giving away at least that huge part of the puzzle if not the whole thing? Bear in mind that a protean doesn't change sizes due to its passive shapeshifting, and that the only part of MitD we ever see is his eyes.

[b_jonas]

why can't it use detect thoughts in the scene where it's trying to please Xykon and can't figure it out?

Detect thoughts is a mind-affecting spell and undead, such as Xykon, are immune to all mind-affecting effects. This is useful, since we know from #106 5th and #109 that Xykon was specifically trying to bluff the adventurers, and as far as he Xykon knows, either Elan or Vaarsuvius could be capable of using a Detect Thoughts spell.

Contrast this to the Escape. #653 7th to 11th shows that Xykon just dispelled Vaarsuvius's Mind Blank, and that after that she was vulnerable to mind-affecting effects. Further, Vaarsuvius was hindered by the Mind fog that Tsukiko cast on her, and that spell adds a heavy penalty to will saves. This means that if the MitD tried to use Detect thoughts on Vaarsuvius, he would likely succeed.

[hroþila]

How exactly could the Giant hint at MitD being a shapeshifter without giving away at least that huge part of the puzzle if not the whole thing? Bear in mind that a protean doesn't change sizes due to its passive shapeshifting, and that the only part of MitD we ever see is his eyes.

He could change the relative position of the eyes and the umbrella

[Tubercular Ox]

How exactly could the Giant hint at MitD being a shapeshifter without giving away at least that huge part of the puzzle if not the whole thing? Bear in mind that a protean doesn't change sizes due to its passive shapeshifting, and that the only part of MitD we ever see is his eyes.

Why is that a huge part of the puzzle? Rich told us outright that the monster has a smell and can swallow creatures whole, and not a single FBS monster has both those abilities, so clearly a nod or two to shapeshifting would've gone unnoticed until after the reveal, or until after people were so sure it was a Protean it jumped out at them. Except we're there and it doesn't. There are no scenes that hint at any kind of shapeshifting, just attempts to use shapeshifting to cheat the guessing game.

In contrast, Rich could've made the entire plot about shapeshifting. Start with a climb speed, then a fly speed, then a swim speed, and people are thinking, "Alter self," then keep upping the ante until only one monster can do everything that's been seen.

If I can write a better Protean story with a few minutes effort than Rich can manage in 20 years, there is a problem with the Protean.

[Kish]

Why is that a huge part of the puzzle? Rich told us outright that the monster has a smell and can swallow creatures whole,

No and no.

The creature asked if the big game hunters were ignoring what he was saying because of his smell. (They weren't.)

Xykon assumed that if the creature eats a lot, he's able to swallow Redcloak whole.

If I can write a better Protean story with a few minutes effort than Rich can manage in 20 years, there is a problem with the Protean.

S'a big if.