MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable

[Keltest]

How exactly could the Giant hint at MitD being a shapeshifter without giving away at least that huge part of the puzzle if not the whole thing? Bear in mind that a protean doesn't change sizes due to its passive shapeshifting, and that the only part of MitD we ever see is his eyes.

If all the clues for your guessing game rely on information that you can't share without ruining the game, its a bad guessing game. Now obviously the game isn't over yet, so I can't definitively say that he didn't do that, but it's such an obvious pitfall I struggle to imagine Rich picking a monster that constrains him that much.

[Tubercular Ox]

No and no.

The creature asked if the big game hunters were ignoring what he was saying because of his smell. (They weren't.)

Xykon assumed that if the creature eats a lot, he's able to swallow Redcloak whole.

This is still a Therblewurkersaurus. I don't care if the Therblewurkersaurus can swallow things whole or just likes to eat a lot, both traits belong to a creature Rich made up and decided to write about instead of the Protean.

Why is Rich writing about any creature other than a Protean? And why does Rich write about it something like three times as often as he writes about the Protean?

[Peelee]

If I can write a better Protean story with a few minutes effort than Rich can manage in 20 years, there is a problem with the Protean.

10 characters.

If I conquer your city, I will destroy you all.

If.

[OvisCaedo]

If all the clues for your guessing game rely on information that you can't share without ruining the game, its a bad guessing game. Now obviously the game isn't over yet, so I can't definitively say that he didn't do that, but it's such an obvious pitfall I struggle to imagine Rich picking a monster that constrains him that much.

I'm not sure that he picked it to BE a guessing game, so much as decided a guessing game would be amusing to do with what he'd picked.

[Tubercular Ox]

"My God, is it talking? In common, no less." -- "My God, it's talking in Common? How polite for it!" (and its undying hatred for nonshapechanging beings)
"Never expected to see one in this part of the world" -- "You can never guess where one of these will turn up" (Climate/Terrain: Any)
"Sorry about the smell" -- "Sorry my eye keeps drifting."
"OK OK, you can do this" -- "Gosh, I love the light, thank goodness they're letting me out."
"Almost everyone ... recoils in abject horror at the sight of you, so I'd say we're your only fans." --- "... it's a good thing Goblins have strong stomachs." (Or any excuse at all is better than none.)
"You will devour him whole and spit out that gold amulet he wears" -- "You will liquefy him on the spot and bring me the gold amulet he wears."

Bam, now Start of Darkness features a Protean.

[hroþila]

10 characters.

[Editor's note: Philip then proceeded to invade and kick Spartan ass]

[Peelee]

[Editor's note: Philip then proceeded to invade and kick Spartan ass]

The point here is it's a good line.

[Keltest]

The point here is it's a good line.

I automatically read it in Christopher Judge's voice too.

[JNAProductions]

"My God, is it talking? In common, no less." -- "My God, it's talking in Common? How polite for it!" (and its undying hatred for nonshapechanging beings)
"Never expected to see one in this part of the world" -- "You can never guess where one of these will turn up" (Climate/Terrain: Any)
"Sorry about the smell" -- "Sorry my eye keeps drifting."
"OK OK, you can do this" -- "Gosh, I love the light, thank goodness they're letting me out."
"Almost everyone ... recoils in abject horror at the sight of you, so I'd say we're your only fans." --- "... it's a good thing Goblins have strong stomachs." (Or any excuse at all is better than none.)
"You will devour him whole and spit out that gold amulet he wears" -- "You will liquefy him on the spot and bring me the gold amulet he wears."

Bam, now Start of Darkness features a Protean.

That’s not a very good story. It’s certainly not entertaining, nor does it have any mystery to it.

[Kish]

Also lots of the suggested replacement phrasings are gratuitously awkward, and, of course, it ignores characterization both in Xykon's case, and in the case of the timid creature in the darkness.

[Sky_Schemer]

So, are you saying your guess is that its approximately equal between Slaad and Snorlax, or are you primarily on Team Slaad and only secondarily on Team Snorlax?

Put me on Team Slaad. And if it ends up being a Snorlax, I'll just say "I knew it all along!" and pretend I didn't get it wrong.

[Sky_Schemer]

So at the very least, I really wish those that dislike the protean would come up with either a new objection, or cease retreading old ground.

Well, I think the best argument against the Uvuudaum is the one already listed: it has a confusion aura with a radius of 30'. That is not a small distance, confusion is not a small effect, and a DC 47 Will save is not a small barrier. Honestly, if we are using RAW as a guide, this should have stricken the Uvuudaum from the list long ago.

[Crusher]

Put me on Team Slaad. And if it ends up being a Snorlax, I'll just say "I knew it all along!" and pretend I didn't get it wrong.

Perfectly reasonable! I approve.

[Errorname]

My stance on the eyes thing is that assuming MITD is a Protean, they would probably remain consistent even after the unveiling, just so there's an anchor point in the design.

Bam, now Start of Darkness features a Protean.

Damn, and all it cost was any ambiguity and sense of mystery what-so-ever, as well as several lines that don't actually contradict with the monster being a protean

The point here is it's a good line.

Still, probably best to source your admittedly extremely sick lines from people who didn't get completely dunked on after delivering them.

[Peelee]

Still, probably best to source your admittedly extremely sick lines from people who didn't get completely dunked on after delivering them.

Imean, i would argue that like was 100% correct.

[Tubercular Ox]

Damn, and all it cost was any ambiguity and sense of mystery what-so-ever

Rich comes down pretty hard on mystery and ambiguity:

"if he was something else then it wouldn’t fit everything that is going to happen and has already happened. It’s not a guessing game I added to the strip just for extracurricular fun and games, it’s part of the story. There’s no answer that’s better than what he is because everything written for the last 15 years has been written with that answer in mind."

You're supposed to feel like Rich was barely hiding it after the reveal, just like Julia-is-Eugene. And if the Monster in the Dark were a Protean, you wouldn't need my rewrites to feel like Start of Darkness is barely hiding it.

as well as several lines that don't actually contradict with the monster being a protean

Not contradicting isn't the goal, fitting everything that is going to happen and has already happened is the goal.

Having an undying hatred for all nonshapechanging beings doesn't fit.
Being surprised it speaks when it has its own language, as well as speaking and understanding all other languages, doesn't fit.
Having a smell doesn't fit.
Working itself up to be in the light doesn't fit.
The Goblins not recoiling in abject horror doesn't fit.
Devouring things whole doesn't fit.

These are not clues that point to the Protean. They are embarrassing counterclues that have to be excused by giving the Protean a Therblewurkersaurus template that explains them.

I agree that the story without a Protean in it has more going for it than my story, but my story is the better Protean story because everything is written to fit a Protean, which was Rich's goal when writing his story.

[Peelee]

And if the Monster in the Dark were a Protean, you wouldn't need my rewrites to feel like Start of Darkness is barely hiding it.

If the Monster in the Dark is a Protean, then I, for one, don't need your rewrites at all.

[OvisCaedo]

I'm not really sold on the Protean completely, or anything else really. But if it were impossible to ever guess that it could be a Protean from how it's been presented in comic... there wouldn't be a bunch of people guessing Protean from what's been presented in the comic.

I also don't think "barely hiding it" is an automatic writing requirement from "I have always had the creature in mind." "Nothing else fits better" does not mean "I carefully curated every aspect of any dialogue ever spoken by, to, or about it to be direct hints about the answer".

[halfeye]

I also don't think "barely hiding it" is an automatic writing requirement from "I have always had the creature in mind." "Nothing else fits better" does not mean "I carefully curated every aspect of any dialogue ever spoken by, to, or about it to be direct hints about the answer".

For me, the point isn't that every bit of dialog should be a direct hint to the MitD, it's that what's drawn or written shouldn't be hints away from what the MitD is, and at least the eyes not moving around would be such a hint away from the MitD if the MitD were a protean.

[Crusher]

For me, the point isn't that every bit of dialog should be a direct hint to the MitD, it's that what's drawn or written shouldn't be hints away from what the MitD is, and at least the eyes not moving around would be such a hint away from the MitD if the MitD were a protean.

Ok, fair enough. So, what's a monster that MitD has been written in such a way that there are no hints against it being that species?

That we're on thread #19 of this should suggest really, really strongly that there's no such monster, and I say this as someone who's not particularly a fan of the Protean as a candidate. You're basically setting an impossible standard (within the confines of the guessing game) and kind of insulting the Giant's storytelling.

[Ruck]

You're frustrated over people asking "why a creature that is constant shapeshifting incarnate never seem to do that"? I find that baffling, myself.

Really? You find it baffling? I thought my reasoning was pretty clear. You even quoted it yourself:

"If the MITD is a Protean, why hasn't Rich shown us the most defining and distinctive characteristic of that species, which he is trying to keep a secret?"

How is that baffling? As I've said before, would you be baffled that people thought it was a Glabrezu even though MitD never explicitly said "Wow, I don't know how I made Mr. Stiffly and his elf friend disappear, but apparently I can only do it once a month!"?

I do not think Rich is going to give us clues that are a dead giveaway, and shapeshifting is so relatively limited-- particularly in the "constantly boiling form" of the Protean, and particularly among creatures in the FBS list-- that any such hint would have been a slam-dunk giveaway.

Or another way to phrase the question from the other side would be: What species has a characteristic as distinctive as a Protean's "constantly boiling form" that MitD has shown? I mean, if he hasn't done anything that distinctive for a species, then he can't be that species, right? I think this line of reasoning will lead you to rule out every single monster species.

If the Monster in the Dark is a Protean, then I, for one, don't need your rewrites at all.

Same.

I'm not really sold on the Protean completely, or anything else really. But if it were impossible to ever guess that it could be a Protean from how it's been presented in comic... there wouldn't be a bunch of people guessing Protean from what's been presented in the comic.

I also don't think "barely hiding it" is an automatic writing requirement from "I have always had the creature in mind." "Nothing else fits better" does not mean "I carefully curated every aspect of any dialogue ever spoken by, to, or about it to be direct hints about the answer".

Yes and yes.

I don't think every last line of dialogue or every single thing MitD does is supposed to be a hint to his species. He has a personality, after all. And a role in the story. Sometimes what he does or says is just based on that.

For me, the point isn't that every bit of dialog should be a direct hint to the MitD, it's that what's drawn or written shouldn't be hints away from what the MitD is, and at least the eyes not moving around would be such a hint away from the MitD if the MitD were a protean.

I think it's important that Rich said, and I'm quoting directly with my own emphasis, "Note that nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what it is, either."

He could have said "everything before strip #100 falls under standard behavior for what it is." He could have said "nothing before strip #100 is unusual or unexpected for what it is." He didn't, and I think he chose that phrase deliberately.

A Protean in magical darkness only having two eyes consistently visible does not contradict the truth of the species. It may not be what many of you expect to happen, but there's a difference between "unexpected from a species" and "contradicts the truth of the species."

---

I guess what I find frustrating about the discussion is that the Protean seems to be held to standards other creatures aren't.

I don't think, for example, Ox's list of questions that he thinks need to be answered by the species is going to all be answered by the species, but if he does, I'd like to see him apply a standard that rigorous to every monster in the FBS or that's been suggested, not just the Protean.

And I don't think "Why hasn't MitD done something that would make his species a dead giveaway?" is a fair question, because if it was a dead giveaway, we'd all know what it is by now-- and if you apply the standard of "hasn't shown the most distinctive or obvious identifying characteristic of its species" to the MitD, then literally no species meets that criteria.

Because at the end of the day, if you have a high enough standard, you can disqualify every possible species. But we know there is an answer. So if you have a standard that no species can meet, then ipso facto your standard is too high.

(EDITED to fix a typo and also to acknowledge that Crusher essentially made the same point one post above about setting impossible standards.)

[hroþila]

I guess what I find frustrating about the discussion is that the Protean seems to be held to standards other creatures aren't.

It is by far the most common guess, it's only natural that it gets the most scrutiny. And the lack of apparent shapeshifting is one of the strongest arguments against it. I think it simply comes with the territory

I understand that the recurrent, circular arguments can get tiresome and frustrating if they aren't bringing anything new to the table, but we can all choose not to engage for the nth time

[Ruck]

It is by far the most common guess, it's only natural that it gets the most scrutiny. And the lack of apparent shapeshifting is one of the strongest arguments against it. I think it simply comes with the territory

I understand that the recurrent, circular arguments can get tiresome and frustrating if they aren't bringing anything new to the table, but we can all choose not to engage for the nth time

Whether or not it's "natural" (and let's skip over debating what that word means or implies for now), it's not good process. Good process entails analyzing all of the possible (or reasonably possible, or "fits the big scenes" possible) candidates by the same standards and trying to come up with the best answer, or researching to find another answer if you aren't satisfied with the candidates already presented here.

If you're holding only one species to an impossible standard and trying to pick it apart because it's the current vote leader, you aren't actually trying to find the answer. If your standards are so high that applying them to each species mean none of them pass, then you will not find the answer.

There is an answer.

I feel like that needs to be emphasized, because at least a couple of people doing the nitpicking have said they haven't found a satisfactory answer, or have openly admitted they're just nitpicking and have no intention of trying to find the answer.

But there is an answer.

Somewhere between the bar set by the FBS and the bar set so high that no creature can pass it, is a bar that one creature will pass. That's the answer.

If you haven't found one that satisfies that for you, then better to be looking for one than to rehash arguments. If your bar is set so that no creature can pass it, then it is set too high. Certainly, it is possible to come up with a reason to dismiss every single proposal, but at the end of the day, if you do that, you will reach the conclusion that MitD cannot be anything, that there is no answer. And that is the one conclusion we know for certain is wrong.

Because, again, there is an answer.

[Kish]

I don't think, for example, Ox's list of questions that he thinks need to be answered by the species is going to all be answered by the species, but if he does, I'd like to see him apply a standard that rigorous to every monster in the FBS or that's been suggested, not just the Protean.

I'd just like to see him apply it to the Hunting Horror, for my part.

[hroþila]

Good process entails analyzing all of the possible (or reasonably possible, or "fits the big scenes" possible) candidates by the same standards and trying to come up with the best answer, or researching to find another answer if you aren't satisfied with the candidates already presented here.

I disagree, I think it's perfectly legitimate and actually good process to point out the flaws in any candidate (and particularly the leading one) even if you don't have a better candidate yourself.

I feel like that needs to be emphasized, because at least a couple of people doing the nitpicking have said they haven't found a satisfactory answer, or have openly admitted they're just nitpicking and have no intention of trying to find the answer.

I think this is part of the problem and the disconnect here - the apparent lack of shapeshifting is not a small, unimportant detail, it is a major flaw in the theory for anyone who is not convinced by the explanations proposed for it. Presenting it as 'nitpicking' can rub people the wrong way.

[Errorname]

I feel like that needs to be emphasized, because at least a couple of people doing the nitpicking have said they haven't found a satisfactory answer, or have openly admitted they're just nitpicking and have no intention of trying to find the answer.

As someone who has raised doubts about the Protean but lacks a better answer, the big reason I haven't gone spelunking is because I do not feel like I have the familiarity to actually have any hope of finding anything. Most of my exposure to TTRPGs is secondhand, through CRPGs or actual plays or webcomics like OOTS, and much of that exposure is heavily based around more modern entries that post-date the point where the MITD's identity would have been decided. I just do not have the familiarity with the material and communities of the period that I can go looking for obscure and esoteric monsters and expect to find anything that the more knowledgeable TTRPG players in the forum haven't already found, I wouldn't even know where to start.

I regret that I can't contribute much more than doubts here, but while the Protean is the strongest candidate it's flaws keep the theory from being completely airtight for me, there's still something that feels off.

[Tubercular Ox]

I also don't think "barely hiding it" is an automatic writing requirement from "I have always had the creature in mind." "Nothing else fits better" does not mean "I carefully curated every aspect of any dialogue ever spoken by, to, or about it to be direct hints about the answer".

Sure, but now we're negotiating. The Big Game Hunters Scene introduces five red herrings to create one clue that Proteans have their own language they would prefer to be speaking:

Spoiler: Big Game Hunters

Show

(I’ve removed Jenkins’ lines because they don’t add much.)

Yes, looks like we bagged it. Good work, Jenkins.

Excuse me, could you let me out of the box? There doesn’t seem to be a latch on the inside.
(Not a Protean, because a Protean would’ve tried Dimension Door, Ethereal Jaunt, or Knock, and then complained about one of those not working instead of complaining about a latch.)

My gods, is it talking?
(Not a Protean. All Proteans speak)

In Common, no less!
(Fits a Protean, it has its own language to speak.)

Um, yeah, I can speak, so about this box…

Well this will surely fetch a fine price.

Okay, I know you can hear me, so I’d really like to discuss the box situation.

I tell you, Jenkins, I never expected to see one of these in this part of the world.
(Not a Protean, which is Climate/Terrain: Any)

Wait, I know! Could you let me out of the box, please? I always get told that I forget to say, “please,” and, “thank you.”
(Not a Protean, which has +53 Diplomacy and shouldn’t need reminders to say please and thank you, unless it’s intentionally slighting someone.)

And “Sorry about the smell.”
(Not a Protean, since Proteans don't have anything about smell on their stat block.)

And then, if you trust me, there are one or two more lines that don’t fit a +53 Diplomacy and nothing else that hurts or helps a Protean case.

This isn't an important scene. The Monster in the Dark's story could've started with the Circus Scene, with a one line Noodle Incident to explain how it got there. So the bulk of this scene is to dissuade the audience that it could be a Protean.

This is cute when mystery and ambiguity are popular, but it's a nightmare after the reveal. New readers are going to binge the online comic, find out it's a Protean, and then read Start of Darkness. They're going to hit this scene and wonder if they bought the right book. They'll come to the thread and ask what's up. The thread will tell them that mystery was more important than story, but the mystery they came in the door with is why Rich decided to change the Monster in the Dark just for Start of Darkness.

I don't think Rich would write the Monster in the Dark so ambiguously that it would continue to generate arguments after the reveal.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

As someone who has raised doubts about the Protean but lacks a better answer, the big reason I haven't gone spelunking is because I do not feel like I have the familiarity to actually have any hope of finding anything. Most of my exposure to TTRPGs is secondhand, through CRPGs or actual plays or webcomics like OOTS, and much of that exposure is heavily based around more modern entries that post-date the point where the MITD's identity would have been decided. I just do not have the familiarity with the material and communities of the period that I can go looking for obscure and esoteric monsters and expect to find anything that the more knowledgeable TTRPG players in the forum haven't already found, I wouldn't even know where to start.

I regret that I can't contribute much more than doubts here, but while the Protean is the strongest candidate it's flaws keep the theory from being completely airtight for me, there's still something that feels off.

Sure, but the crucial difference is, as I have pointed out, that you don't come here and post essentially a "I won't buy the protean because I feel he should have different number of eyes in every panel", like it was some kind of novel thought no-one had ever posted to this thread in it's 19 thread history. No-one will pillory you for not liking any of the FBS candidates; but the core intention of this thread is to either refine the suggestions we have or add new ones. We can't all be Crusher and his indefatigable ability to find new candidates, and that's fine.

I think this is part of the problem and the disconnect here - the apparent lack of shapeshifting is not a small, unimportant detail, it is a major flaw in the theory for anyone who is not convinced by the explanations proposed for it. Presenting it as 'nitpicking' can rub people the wrong way.

Big or small, AFAIAC the disconnect here is the expectation that anyone bringing up any FBS creature should be reasonably familiar with the FBS entry and if wanting to discuss it, should bring something new to the table - i.e. not something already in the OP unless they have either a fix, or a novel objection. If they really don't have anything new to say, they are free to say "Put me down as 'Not protean' because shapeshifting" to Crusher and that'll be that. But restarting a discussion we have had a dozen times, when they have absolutely nothing new to add, is actually less than nitpicking; for the purposes of advancing our understanding of MitD, it's just noise.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

I don't think Rich would write the Monster in the Dark so ambiguously that it would continue to generate arguments after the reveal.

Then I assume you object to every creature suggested so far, including yours?

[Errorname]

Excuse me, could you let me out of the box? There doesn’t seem to be a latch on the inside.
(Not a Protean, because a Protean would’ve tried Dimension Door, Ethereal Jaunt, or Knock, and then complained about one of those not working instead of complaining about a latch.)

The monster quite explicitly doesn't fully understand what he is or what he's capable of.

Wait, I know! Could you let me out of the box, please? I always get told that I forget to say, “please,” and, “thank you.”
(Not a Protean, which has +53 Diplomacy and shouldn’t need reminders to say please and thank you, unless it’s intentionally slighting someone.)

The monster is his own individual with his own personality which is clearly unconventional for his ilk.

That said, a +53 Diplomacy does match up pretty cleanly with his "Trenchant Political Analysis", and it'd be neat if the joke clue was an actual clue.

This is cute when mystery and ambiguity are popular, but it's a nightmare after the reveal. New readers are going to binge the online comic, find out it's a Protean, and then read Start of Darkness. They're going to hit this scene and wonder if they bought the right book. They'll come to the thread and ask what's up. The thread will tell them that mystery was more important than story, but the mystery they came in the door with is why Rich decided to change the Monster in the Dark just for Start of Darkness.

I suspect a more common reaction would be to not question it. The thing about a Protean that's shared with all the candidates is that it's not a super well known monster, to a casual reader who hasn't been pouring over the 'what is the MITD' theory game they probably will not notice or care. Especially when you aren't scouring the book for hints and are just enjoying the story.