Alert, Stealth, and Initiative

[schm0]

Literally the first sentence in the description.

See my response to tokek below.

Surprise is the mechanic to represent a character not knowing that combat has started when it has. Thus, “you cannot be surprised” is the mechanic that allows characters to know they have entered combat even when they would not have known otherwise. Each method of gaining that mechanic has its own in-universe (thus, not metagame) flavor as to how the character figured out they were in combat. With Alert it’s that they are always on the lookout for danger; with Weapon of Warning it’s that the weapon magically warns you; with Storm Rune or Foresight it is the ability to see slightly into the future.

I mean, we agree it's a mechanic. But there are no rules to support the idea that the character knows that combat has started. "Entering combat" and "rolling initiative" and "surprised" are metagame terms. The PC has zero idea that they are being controlled by a human being and moved across little squares and rolling dice, any more than they understand those metagame terms.

As for all of the items and features you listed, the only benefits granted to the PC are the ones listed in the text of those abilities. Nothing more, nothing less.

At this point you are outright ignoring the wording of the rule itself so I’m not sure what good any further discussion will do.

It’s the first sentence which has been posted to this discussion at least twice.

Please refer to this comment, which addresses the flavor text. It has zero mechanical significance.

Again, if your DM rules that such metagame information is available to the PC, that's fine, it's just not supported by the rules.

[PhoenixPhyre]

There is no flavor/mechanics divide in 5e. Saying "that's flavor text" as an excuse to ignore text is simply saying that you want to ignore that text, not actually follow it.

All text matters, until changed by the decisions of a particular table. There is no rule that distinguishes meaningless flavor from substantive mechanics, thus the rules do not support dividing the text that way.

In fact, the numeric and dice based text (what people call mechanics) is actually subordinate to the fiction being evoked. The game can exist with many different UI conventions, and mechanics are just game ui. They're interfaces by which we interact with the underlying fiction. The fiction dictates what mechanics have meaning, not vice versa--that's the distinction between a board or computer game with closed possibilities and a ttrpg without such limits. Anything is possible, even if not representable with a given set of mechanics, because mechanics can be changed without changing the fiction.

[Kane0]

Some traps and hazards do happen to occur on a particular initiative count (eg 'the raiders boulder moves on initiative count 20'), much like lair actions. So i guess you would get warned in those cases.

[GooeyChewie]

I mean, we agree it's a mechanic. But there are no rules to support the idea that the character knows that combat has started. "Entering combat" and "rolling initiative" and "surprised" are metagame terms. The PC has zero idea that they are being controlled by a human being and moved across little squares and rolling dice, any more than they understand those metagame terms.

If you mean that the PCs are unaware of the combat structure in terms initiative, rounds, turns and whatnot, then I agree. If you mean that adventurers are not aware that they are in a fight in-universe, any if them that were not aware at the start of the fight figure it out within 6 seconds.

As for all of the items and features you listed, the only benefits granted to the PC are the ones listed in the text of those abilities. Nothing more, nothing less.

Yes, and “you are not surprised but you still cannot take actions” is less than “you cannot be surprised.”

Please refer to this comment, which addresses the flavor text. It has zero mechanical significance.

Again, if your DM rules that such metagame information is available to the PC, that's fine, it's just not supported by the rules.

The thing is, you aren’t making a mechanical argument as to why the character cannot act as though they are in combat. You are making a metagame argument, that the character doesn’t know they are in a combat situation. The flavor on the features that prevent surprise address the metagame argument by telling you how the character does realize they are in a combat situation.

[tokek]

Please refer to this comment, which addresses the flavor text. It has zero mechanical significance.

Again, if your DM rules that such metagame information is available to the PC, that's fine, it's just not supported by the rules.

In respect to a discussion around metagaming it has every significance. The character in-game is warned that they are under attack, therefore it is not metagaming for that character to act as if under attack

The character does not know about game mechanics but they know they are under attack and its perfectly reasonable for them to act as if under attack. Because the rule on the item they have says that they are warned. The warning from the weapon is not metagaming - its outright stated in its rules as a thing that happens within the game.

[schm0]

There is no flavor/mechanics divide in 5e. Saying "that's flavor text" as an excuse to ignore text is simply saying that you want to ignore that text, not actually follow it.

All text matters, until changed by the decisions of a particular table. There is no rule that distinguishes meaningless flavor from substantive mechanics, thus the rules do not support dividing the text that way.

I'm sorry, but that's just not the case. Unless the text is speaking in mechanical terms (i.e. you gain this benefit when this trigger occurs, this item allows you to do X, you are immune to Y condition, etc.) the text has no mechanical significance. There is no definition for the terms "warn" or "danger" or how they work. They aren't defined anywhere, because they aren't used anywhere in the game.

The first sentence of the magic item explains in narrative terms what it does. The rest of the text explains how it does so mechanically. Flavor is flavor, mechanics are mechanics.

And regardless, it still proves my point. If what you say is true, then possessing such a weapon represents an exception to the rules. You are tacitly admitting that without such a weapon, the PC has no idea that combat has begun, and thus my original point stands.

If you mean that the PCs are unaware of the combat structure in terms initiative, rounds, turns and whatnot, then I agree. If you mean that adventurers are not aware that they are in a fight in-universe, any if them that were not aware at the start of the fight figure it out within 6 seconds.

We can agree that the PC in such a scenario (where combat has begun but no hostile creatures have taken a turn and no action has taken place) finds out after the six seconds, not during.

The thing is, you arenÂ’t making a mechanical argument as to why the character cannot act as though they are in combat. You are making a metagame argument, that the character doesnÂ’t know they are in a combat situation. The flavor on the features that prevent surprise address the metagame argument by telling you how the character does realize they are in a combat situation.

Metagame information can only be revealed through mechanics. In this argument, we are focusing on two pieces of metagame information: that a creature is hidden and that the PC is being attacked in combat. At the beginning of combat, the player knows (or can assume) all of this information, but the PC does not. A hidden creature is unseen and unheard, and can only cease to be hidden if they reveal themselves or the player searches for them and succeeds in finding them. An attack by a hidden creature is only revealed when said creature makes the attack. Because the creature has not revealed themselves or attacked, the PC can not take advantage of this information without metagaming (using information the player knows but the PC does not).

In respect to a discussion around metagaming it has every significance. The character in-game is warned that they are under attack, therefore it is not metagaming for that character to act as if under attack

The character does not know about game mechanics but they know they are under attack and its perfectly reasonable for them to act as if under attack. Because the rule on the item they have says that they are warned. The warning from the weapon is not metagaming - its outright stated in its rules as a thing that happens within the game.

There is nothing in the weapon of warning that reveals the presence of hidden creatures or allows the PC omniscience into the future, which is what you are describing. The item does what it describes, which are the three benefits I listed previously. Anything else is not RAW. You are extrapolating your conclusion from flavor text. The terms "warn" and "danger" have no mechanical meaning.

And again, as I've said above and in previous posts, we are in the weeds here talking about an exception to the rules provided by a magic weapon. Which means even if I were to concede your questionable argument, without a weapon of warning the PC is precisely as I described: unaware they are in combat. My point stands.

EDIT: spelling

[Theodoxus]

Using items just moves the goalposts. Instead of the PC getting metagame information that an attack is imminent, the item is getting that information.

So, how does the warning weapon know when you're under attack? There's no claim of prescience with the item, so it would only know when the attack action occurs.

[JNAProductions]

Using items just moves the goalposts. Instead of the PC getting metagame information that an attack is imminent, the item is getting that information.

So, how does the warning weapon know when you're under attack? There's no claim of prescience with the item, so it would only know when the attack action occurs.

It's magic. It could very well have prescience.

Likewise, with the Alert feat, I have absolutely no problem letting an Alert PC pretty much have Spidey Sense. Obviously not quite so strong as Spiderman does, but the general thrust of it.

[Keltest]

Hot take: it's a game. Trying to remove all metagaming is missing the point.

[JNAProductions]

Hot take: it's a game. Trying to remove all metagaming is missing the point.

This is also a good point.

I like characters to be consistent with themselves and the world.
But I'm more concerned with the actual people at the table having a good time.

[tokek]

Using items just moves the goalposts. Instead of the PC getting metagame information that an attack is imminent, the item is getting that information.

So, how does the warning weapon know when you're under attack? There's no claim of prescience with the item, so it would only know when the attack action occurs.

Its magic.

Don't try to out logic magic, that way lies madness. It warns you, the description says it warns you, just accept that the magic does what it says. I don't know how magic really works because it does not work in the real world.

But it is specifically not metagaming to play that your character knows what magic tells them. That is true of a weapon of warning, much of the divination school and a bunch of other magic items.