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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    No, they don't. That's the point I'nm trying to make.
    Except that point is just a basic reshuffle. They take in energy from the Energy Source Place which takes no time or effort and has no effects other than letting them expend more energy. It's like saying that, no, I'm not writing this reply, im just tapping on a glass screen, and all the computerized stuff behind the glass writes it. It a fig leaf that doesn't need to exist because the basic premise of superhero stories requires the reader to implicitly accept it to start with.
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  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Except that point is just a basic reshuffle. They take in energy from the Energy Source Place which takes no time or effort and has no effects other than letting them expend more energy. It's like saying that, no, I'm not writing this reply, im just tapping on a glass screen, and all the computerized stuff behind the glass writes it. It a fig leaf that doesn't need to exist because the basic premise of superhero stories requires the reader to implicitly accept it to start with.
    Peelee its the difference between a robot having a perpetual energy generator in their stomach and an antenna connecting them to a perpetual energy generator thats on another planet. the former is a lot more damaging to shut down to the person and lot more difficult to get to, than the other.

    again, quoting myself a post ago:
    the practical upshot being, that if you want to cut off most superheroes powers you just have to do something to disrupt their wifi connection to the big energy source out there in the cosmos. but if you want to cut off Scott Summers from HIS powers, you have to rip his eyes out.
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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Peelee its the difference between a robot having a perpetual energy generator in their stomach and an antenna connecting them to a perpetual energy generator thats on another planet.
    Except if you're just looking to harness that energy it's not a functional difference at all. If you need to get to the airport and i can drive you there in a car powered by magic or drive you there in a nuclear-powered car which gets plutonium teleported into the reactor chamber from the planet Zorblax, you still get to the airport at the same time and it doesn't much matter the mechanism of the engine. Its functionally irrelevant. Once the Magic-powered car is introduced, we already accept the premise. Adding pseudoscientific sounding extra magic on top of that does nothing except kick the magic can a couple feet down the road. Sure, if you want a story to focus on shorting out the magic car then you could use "we reversed the polarity on the induction field for the teleporter!" but you could also just have any other magic disruptor scenario without the needless complications.
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  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Except that point is just a basic reshuffle. They take in energy from the Energy Source Place which takes no time or effort and has no effects other than letting them expend more energy. It's like saying that, no, I'm not writing this reply, im just tapping on a glass screen, and all the computerized stuff behind the glass writes it. It a fig leaf that doesn't need to exist because the basic premise of superhero stories requires the reader to implicitly accept it to start with.
    Where is the Far Side comic I retweeted earlier in the week? Oh Here it is

    "Along with "Antimatter" and "Dark Matter", we've recently discovered the existence of "Doesn't Matter", which seems to have no effect on the universe WHATSOEVER.

    In other news I been told by others we are getting a new Dr What … or was it Who?
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  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Where is the Far Side comic I retweeted earlier in the week? Oh Here it is

    "Along with "Antimatter" and "Dark Matter", we've recently discovered the existence of "Doesn't Matter", which seems to have no effect on the universe WHATSOEVER.
    Quite. I do get the feeling that people are too determined to explain things that don't really have explanations (and sure didn't when they were written), and then take the explanations too seriously. The discussions can be fun, but sometimes the explanation really is the MST3K mantra...
    Last edited by Manga Shoggoth; 2023-11-19 at 02:05 PM.
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  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Manga Shoggoth View Post
    Quite. I do get the feeling that people are too determined to explain things that don't really have explanations (and sure didn't when they were written), and then take the explanations too seriously. The discussions can be fun, but sometimes the explanation really is the MST3K mantra...
    Earnestly, and this is shounen part of me speaking.

    There is science of the style of phenomena things you can perceive directly on page ,

    And then their is a boundary condition, let’s say the black or white space between panels, and then their is a different type of science of revelation where things out of panel influence the things on panel. If we start the story in Act 2, in the middle of things in medias res, if we want to go fancy it will not make sense the story with all the informations and perceptions we see merely in Act 2, we need to know what happened before. Like what happened in the characters earlier life, or what happened to mom or dad, or where did this city come from and so on?

    The start of the story is not the beginning / origin of the phenomena that make the story move.

    =====

    Back to Metaphysics and Matter, all these discussions can be solved via dark matter, dark energy, and invisible teleportation portals. X-Men’s Cyclops eyes are like a Dragon’s mouth, the energy is being channeled from a portal invisible to the naked eye and redirected here as energy breath. Superman magic breath comes from his fortress of solitude, and all his super strength and invulnerability is merely tactile telekinesis
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  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    The source of a character's powers should only really be focused on if it actually matters to the story. Like in Worm, the source of the powers superheroes have matters, a lot, because eventually that source attacks the planet.

    While in Harry Potter, the source of magic doesn't really matter. There's no hard mechanics behind why magic works like it does and the people have it and some people don't, beyond a vague idea that it is at least somewhat genetic, but also not because sometimes family lines will just up and lose magic for entire generations.

    So Cyclops and the X-Men? It mostly doesn't matter. It matters in the sense that they are Mutants, and prosecuted for that fact. And that attempts to disable their power or hunt them down is usually done in some form of gene therapy or gene scanning, but the strict mechanics behind how Cyclops shoots infinite punching lasers from his face? Honestly irrelevant. Of course when you have something like 40 years of writing behind a character, eventually you just start filling in whatever information you can.


    As for the thread subject, I can't think of a single reason why Superman wouldn't thrive in the Marvel Universe. He'd probably be a little bit worse off than he would be in DC, but that's because the Marvel universe is slightly worse off. But he'd still be a successful superhero, save tons of people, and likely have a fulfilling personal life.
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  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    I thought that dragon fire was just hydrogen (produced from the calcium in limestone mixing with stomach acid in their craw) ignited by the the static charge in the dragon's Thor Thimble.

    Either way, speaking of infinite energy, is there a "goldilocks zone" where Superman could be close enough to the sun that he could regenerate his powers faster than Rogue could drain them?

    And, like, entertaining the Cyclops fight idea, I kind of want it to end with Plastic Man dumping a vat of sunblock on them in a really inconvenient failed attempt to null their superpowers, just to scream, "Guys, stop messing around! We gotta get back to our own dimensions!" There is an awkward silence while Superman and Cyclops assess the situation, and have a hearty laugh understanding exactly what happened.
    "Okay, so I'm going to quick draw and dual wield these one-pound caltrops as improvised weapons..."
    ---
    "Oh, hey, look! Blue Eyes Black Lotus!" "Wait what, do you sacrifice a mana to the... Does it like, summon a... What would that card even do!?" "Oh, it's got a four-energy attack. Completely unviable in actual play, so don't worry about it."

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Manga Shoggoth View Post
    Quite. I do get the feeling that people are too determined to explain things that don't really have explanations (and sure didn't when they were written), and then take the explanations too seriously. The discussions can be fun, but sometimes the explanation really is the MST3K mantra...
    Right, it's rather like shipping. Shipping can be a lot of fun, crack shipping even more so, but there often comes the point where people get too invested in being RIGHT and those opposing them as being WRONG, and it quickly becomes increasingly messed up, personal, and nasty.

    When the fun stops, stop, as gambling companies like to say.

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    The source of a character's powers should only really be focused on if it actually matters to the story.
    Agreed, but the thing is that, for some fans, it's really fun to overanalyze the insignificant technicalities of a story, and superhero fiction has been around long enough and brings in new creatives to make it enough that fan discourse ends up pollinating into the stories themselves as stories get written by people who either did focus on those technical details as a fan, or who are at least aware of it. That's not always bad, sometimes you acknowledge it because the overanalysis revealed a potential cool thing you could do, sometimes just because you want to win an argument with a throwaway line, but sometimes writers take it too far and it can really undercut things.
    Last edited by Errorname; 2023-11-19 at 07:00 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Errorname View Post
    Agreed, but the thing is that, for some fans, it's really fun to overanalyze the insignificant technicalities of a story, and superhero fiction has been around long enough and brings in new creatives to make it enough that fan discourse ends up pollinating into the stories themselves as stories get written by people who either did focus on those technical details as a fan, or who are at least aware of it. That's not always bad, sometimes you acknowledge it because the overanalysis revealed a potential cool thing you could do, sometimes just because you want to win an argument with a throwaway line, but sometimes writers take it too far and it can really undercut things.
    It can be fun, sure. And its not like you can't write a story where it does matter, even if it didn't matter in an earlier story.

    But then people can take it too far, and start focusing on irrelevant details and being upset at them when they don't matter.
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  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Me: tries to explain as simply as I can a series of statements that have remained consistent across dozens of writers for the last several decades, being expanded on but never contradicted, that explain that no, not every character is a walking perpetual energy generator with infinite output, only the one character who has explcitly been stated to potentially be such.

    Rest of the thread "so they're all perpetual energy generators with infinite output" "dude you're overthinking and overanalyzing it, it doesn't matter."

    It's very frustrating to be involved in conversations like this, where there's a consistent canonical explanation for a thing but when I bring it up it gets dismissed or handwaved away.
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  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Me: tries to explain as simply as I can a series of statements that have remained consistent across dozens of writers for the last several decades, being expanded on but never contradicted, that explain that no, not every character is a walking perpetual energy generator with infinite output, only the one character who has explcitly been stated to potentially be such.

    Rest of the thread "so they're all perpetual energy generators with infinite output" "dude you're overthinking and overanalyzing it, it doesn't matter."

    It's very frustrating to be involved in conversations like this, where there's a consistent canonical explanation for a thing but when I bring it up it gets dismissed or handwaved away.
    sorry dude, I did the best I can but they keep ignoring us for their own ideas. I'm with you, it gets frustrating see people insist on their own explanation or outright ignore it in favor of declaring any arbitrary detail doesn't matter. they're just not interested in seeing it from your point of view. if a response isn't an at minimum of "oh I can see that" or "valid interpretation if not mine" then the conversations over.

    and these people clearly have some details they WANT to discuss if they are in this thread discussing this, just not the details preferred by us, and I can think of no greater waste of time on this Planet Earth than dismissing another fan for wanting to discuss different types of details than what you want to discuss about anything. there are no bad details to discuss about a media franchise we love, just ones people are more or less interested in- a lesson I learned from a video defending powerscaling and why people do it.
    Last edited by Lord Raziere; 2023-11-19 at 11:04 PM.
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  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Me: tries to explain as simply as I can a series of statements that have remained consistent across dozens of writers for the last several decades, being expanded on but never contradicted, that explain that no, not every character is a walking perpetual energy generator with infinite output, only the one character who has explcitly been stated to potentially be such.

    Rest of the thread "so they're all perpetual energy generators with infinite output" "dude you're overthinking and overanalyzing it, it doesn't matter."

    It's very frustrating to be involved in conversations like this, where there's a consistent canonical explanation for a thing but when I bring it up it gets dismissed or handwaved away.
    First off, i never said they were generators, i said they have perpetual energy. Second, i never said "infinite," but if you want to go ahead amd say perpetual and infinite are the same, then "perpetual" and "infinite" doesn't mean "all". You could have a faucet that perpetually spews infinite water but at a rate of one gallon per hour.

    You can have whatever source of magical energy gain you want. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. Again, see the car that runs on magic vs the car that runs on uranium teleported in from Zorblax. More words doesn't really change that its a magic source that runs on plot contrivance. And we've already accepted that the car works regardless, that's literally the basis of the universe. It's not inherently bad to be interested in the Zorblaxian teleported uranium, but it is a bit silly to say "no, it's not magic, it's wordier magic!"
    Last edited by Peelee; 2023-11-20 at 09:45 AM.
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  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Me: tries to explain as simply as I can a series of statements that have remained consistent across dozens of writers for the last several decades, being expanded on but never contradicted, that explain that no, not every character is a walking perpetual energy generator with infinite output, only the one character who has explcitly been stated to potentially be such.

    Rest of the thread "so they're all perpetual energy generators with infinite output" "dude you're overthinking and overanalyzing it, it doesn't matter."

    It's very frustrating to be involved in conversations like this, where there's a consistent canonical explanation for a thing but when I bring it up it gets dismissed or handwaved away.
    Well does it matter? Cyclops having open portals to a plane of kinetic energy instead of generating punchy lasers himself may be consistent, but does it actually matter? This being Marvel, I'd be surprised if a writer never used it to justify one thing or another, but to my admittedly basic knowledge, it doesn't really come up all that often, let alone being a plot determining factoid.
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  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Well does it matter? Cyclops having open portals to a plane of kinetic energy instead of generating punchy lasers himself may be consistent, but does it actually matter? This being Marvel, I'd be surprised if a writer never used it to justify one thing or another, but to my admittedly basic knowledge, it doesn't really come up all that often, let alone being a plot determining factoid.
    The fact that Scott 1: does that. 2: generates the energy to do that himself via 3: A process that generates millions of times more energy than he gets from the slight he absorbs to start it is very important because it's a defining moment in his backstory.

    To summarize, after jumping out of a burning airplane and hitting the ground head first because the parachute caught fire and he was carrying his little brother, Alex, Scott fell into a coma. While he was comatose, he was taken to an orphanage run by Mister Sinister, who did testing on all the kids to see which ones were mutants and upon studying Scott's powers became obsessed with him specifically because of the fact that his powers were an exception to Thermodynamics.

    Scott's entire backstory from that point forward was engineered to break him down into somoene who could be molded into the perfect child soldier so that Essex could swoop in, save him from the traumatic circumstances, and thus have Scott as both his willing enforcer and a willing participant in his experiments.

    (Then Xavier found Scott and sniped him. A common complaint is that Xavier turned Sctt into a child soldier but Scott was already on his way to that. Xavier made him functional.)

    Cable exists because Scott married Maddie Pryor. Maddie Pryor exists because Essex cloned Jean Grey. Essex cloned Jean Grey because Essex wanted to make a broodmare to bear Scott's children due to his desire to see what would happen if you combined Scott's impossible energy efficiency with Jean's bull**** psychic powers, and in particular his desire to make a mutant who could serve as a weapon against Apocalypse.

    In addition to Cable(who at ful power, when th eT-O virus is under control, can casually manhandle the Silver Surfer while holding up an entire city and repairing all the collateral damage from the fight as it's happening) another interaction between Scott and Jean's power, Rachel Grey, their daughter from the Days of Future Past Timeline, is able to see the past and future and psychokinetically manipulate time itself, allowing her to project other people's minds back in time to inhabit their younger selves and physically travel through time herself.

    This means that, if Scott's powers didn't work like that, the time travel shenanigans that allowed for that terrible future to be shunted off into a divergent timeline wouldn't have been possible.

    So yeah, it's pretty important. Scott would literally be a completely different person today two major characters wouldn't exist and the history of the universe would be rather different.

    Additionally, it's relevant to this discussion given that someone here thought that Scott was just absorbing sunlight and then firing it back out of his eyes, but red.
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  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Would any of that had transpired differently if Scott's power was "can somehow transform a little bit of sunlight into massive amounts of force" instead of "can use sunlight to open portals to a force dimension" though?

    Also, it feels kinda weird that Scott's and his brother Alex's powers are kinda similar on the surface but apparently work completely differently from what I can find (yet they are still immune to each other's powers).
    Last edited by Batcathat; 2023-11-20 at 09:53 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #78
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    Would any of that had transpired differently if Scott's power was "can somehow transform a little bit of sunlight into massive amounts of force" instead of "can use sunlight to open portals to a force dimension" though?
    Lots of people have a power of "seemingly transform a little bit of sunlight into a lot of force." He wouldn't be special otherwise, so no carefully engineered series of traumas and abuses.

    Scott being able to do it with no other external sources of energy is the key part. Most mutants have cosmic energy leaching into their body to make their "mutant energy," scott makes all of his own from ambient sunlight. That fact that there's no explanation of handwave, Scott is just an exception to Thermodynamics, is what got Essex's attention.

    Additionally, there's the matter of scale involved. It takes considerably more energy to open and maintain a portal to a parallel universe with radically different laws of physics than it does to punch someone. Even at full blast when Scott's beams can shred a human being to atoms that's just a drop in a bucket in terms of output compared to the energy consumption needed to maintain that and thanks to his brain damage he can't turn the portals off so he's just constantly generating and expending enough energy to power several small nations uing only ambient sunlight.

    If you change how Scott's power works so that he's directly converting sunlight into force, you're changing the scale of conversion to something much smaller, so that even if Essex remained interested in Scitt, Cable and Rachel's powers would likely be considerably weaker which...

    Okay. Cable is infected with the Techno-Organic Virus because Apocalypse feared his power even as a baby and tried to assassinate him with it.

    Apocalypse had access to the techno-organic virus because he himself was infected with it... By Cable, who accidentally infected Apocalypse with it when he went back in time to 1500 AD to assassinate him.

    Apocalypse's powers protected him from the infection by absorbing it, which granted him technopathic abilities among other things.

    These technopathic abilities allowed him to make use of the Celestial Technology he found, which despite his superhuman intelligence and knowledge of science from the distant future was beyond his understanding.

    The use of Celestial Technology is what made him the threat he was in the modern day as well as what allows him to give enhancements to his Horsemen.

    If Scott's power works differently, Cable isn't a god in all but name, Apocalypse has no need to assassinate him, Cable doesn't accidentally infect Apocalypse in 1500, Apocalypse never becomes the threat he is, just one of several ancient conspirators and is easy enough to defeat, history is radically different.

    And sure, maybe Apocalypse might still think that a weaker Cable is a threat and try to assassinate him anyway but... Sinister got his powers and knowledge of biology from Apocalypse back in the Victorian age. During this time, Apocalypse had a plan that would have wiped out most human life on Earth and while Sinister was opposed to it on the grounds of how unscientific he found it, it wasn't until somoene appealed to his humanity and made him think of all the children who would die int he same light as his own dead son(whose death is what initially drove him to become a supervillain in the first place) tha the actually betrayed Apocalypse and prevented this from occurring.

    who was it? A time-traveling Scott Summers and Jean Grey...

    It wasn't discovered that Scott couldn't turn off his optic blasts until he woke up from his coma.

    Sinister is the one who invented the ruby quartz visor that keeps Scott's powers in check.

    If Sinister isn't interested and just shunts Scott off to someone else the way he did with Alex, Scott wakes up from his coma, destroys everything around him, and without somoene who knows anything about Mutants around will probably be assumed to be a monster and shot by the police, the national guard, a hillbilly with a shotgun, etcetera.

    So not only does Cable not get made, but if Apocalypse was still somehow infected with the T-O Virus anyway, he takes over the World in the Victorian era as no one is there to appeal to Sinsiter's last shreds of humanity.

    Do I need to keep going?
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  19. - Top - End - #79
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Lots of people have a power of "seemingly transform a little bit of sunlight into a lot of force." He wouldn't be special otherwise, so no carefully engineered series of traumas and abuses.

    Scott being able to do it with no other external sources of energy is the key part. Most mutants have cosmic energy leaching into their body to make their "mutant energy," scott makes all of his own from ambient sunlight. That fact that there's no explanation of handwave, Scott is just an exception to Thermodynamics, is what got Essex's attention.

    Additionally, there's the matter of scale involved. It takes considerably more energy to open and maintain a portal to a parallel universe with radically different laws of physics than it does to punch someone. Even at full blast when Scott's beams can shred a human being to atoms that's just a drop in a bucket in terms of output compared to the energy consumption needed to maintain that and thanks to his brain damage he can't turn the portals off so he's just constantly generating and expending enough energy to power several small nations uing only ambient sunlight.
    Wait, so the portal explanation means he's actually using more energy (according to in-universe science, at least) than if he was "just" turning a little bit of sunlight into a lot of punch? I kind of assumed that part of point of that explanation was to break the rules of physics less, not more.

    I'm no mad scientist, but I would think that someone who can seemingly create energy out of nowhere would be just as interesting as someone who can open portals to a force dimension.
    Last edited by Batcathat; 2023-11-20 at 10:31 AM.

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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    Wait, so the portal explanation means he's actually using more energy (according to in-universe science, at least) than if he was "just" turning a little bit of sunlight into a lot of punch? I kind of assumed that part of point of that explanation was to break the rules of physics less, not more.
    No, actually. That's kind of the point. The thing that is interesting about Scott from a scientific perspective is that out of every superhuman in the world, Scott is the only one who is an exception to thermodynamics outright.

    The Laws of conservation of mass and energy otherwise hold up in testing even taking what Scott establishes to be possible into account, which means that it's not that the laws are wrong...

    As for "anyone seemingly making energy out of nothing.." Again, lots of people seem to do that but are usually getting the energy from somewhere else or have some other explanation for how they can take a little bit and get a lot out of it. If that's what Essex was interested in he would have kept Alex, too.
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    As for "anyone seemingly making energy out of nothing.." Again, lots of people seem to do that but are usually getting the energy from somewhere else or have some other explanation for how they can take a little bit and get a lot out of it. If that's what Essex was interested in he would have kept Alex, too.
    Right, but the more straight-forward explanation of Scott's power – that he transforms a little ambient sunlight into a lot of concussive force – still has him creating energy out of nowhere, thus still being of interest to Mr. I'm-So-Evil (yes, I know the out of universe explanation for the name and is eternally disappointed that's not canon).

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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    Right, but the more straight-forward explanation of Scott's power – that he transforms a little ambient sunlight into a lot of concussive force – still has him creating energy out of nowhere, thus still being of interest to Mr. I'm-So-Evil (yes, I know the out of universe explanation for the name and is eternally disappointed that's not canon).
    But he wouldn't be generating noticeably more energy than anyone else, which wouldn't have provoked the more detailed research to find out how, which means it wouldn't have been discovered that no, there's no workaround, he's just violating physics.

    Seriously, Scott was vivisected more than once to figure out where the energy was coming from.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    But he wouldn't be generating noticeably more energy than anyone else, which wouldn't have provoked the more detailed research to find out how, which means it wouldn't have been discovered that no, there's no workaround, he's just violating physics.
    At what point is the difference obvious, though? Clearly there's a disparity between the ambient sunlight he absorbs and his energy output, but as you say there are plenty of mutants seemingly pulling energy out of nowhere. To actually notice that he's actually somehow generating power to open interdimensional portals in his eyes seems like something that would require a pretty thorough inspection.

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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    I think another issue for Superman being in the Marvel Universe would be - how does the Marvel Universe react/handle the myriad number of Kryptonians who survived the collapse of their homeworld. One Superman is a curiosity, a legion of Supermen is game changing.
    Last edited by VampiricLongbow; 2023-11-20 at 12:50 PM.

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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Lots of people have a power of "seemingly transform a little bit of sunlight into a lot of force." He wouldn't be special otherwise
    To quote the great UCLA college basketball coach, John Obi-Wan Gandalf: "It is our choices, gentlemen, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."

    The hyper-specific mechanism that he uses to ude his laser eyes is not what makes him special.
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    To quote the great UCLA college basketball coach, John Obi-Wan Gandalf: "It is our choices, gentlemen, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."

    The hyper-specific mechanism that he uses to ude his laser eyes is not what makes him special.
    I feel like you should have been able to infer from context the "in regards to the scientific study of superhuman biophysics" that would come after the word "special."
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    I feel like you should have been able to infer from context the "in regards to the scientific study of superhuman biophysics" that would come after the word "special."
    I did, it's just that barring any actually stem-educated comic writers, "scientific study of superhuman biophysics" is going to boil down to magic-explained-by-technobiobabble nearly immediately, so complex biobabble isn't really necessary at all. It's just there for people who want it to be. Which, again, isn't bad. But it's far from necessary and good writers should know this.

    Hell, if you want examples of over-educated comic writers, the creative team of Futurama had a good handful of doctorates and masters degrees and a combined total of some 50-odd years at Harvard, i wanna say. Several of these in advanced Mathematica. There are even occasional plots that had mathematical theories invented by the writers to see if the plot they wanted could actually happen. You know how much the show delves into advanced mathematics? Virtually not at all, a ten-year-old could follow those episodes perfectly fine, and explain it in less time than it took you to explain why bad comic science makes Cyclops special. Those interested in it could delve into it and see that in the actual mechanics of the show, as portrayed, it's totally accurate and it's crazy cool that they did that much work behind the scenes but its 100% unnecessary for the viewer.

    The deep-down gritty nuts and bolts of where superpowers come from should be unnecessary. Id one cannot tell a story without going deep into the biophysics, especially if one has little to no formal training in biology or physics but even if one does, then it's more likely than not that that person just isn't going to be able to tell a good story.

    For example:Enemy of the State came out in 98 (jeez, that reference to "and this is tech they had back in Vietnam" is now aged enough to reference cutting edge tech from that movie). Incredibly advanced surveillance systems are integral to the plot. Viewer knowledge of exactly how they work is not. One only needs occasional exposition - "the signal cant pass through concrete", they traced the call", stuff like that. That the thing is happening is important. The specific details on how the thing works is not.
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Is this still about Superman? How does this Cyclops talk effect how Superman would handle being in the Marvel Universe? Even if Cyclops's power could defeat Superman, what are the odds of the two of them even fighting in the first place?


    Oh, wait. Marvel does hero vs. hero stuff all the time even if it goes against character. Nevermind that last part.

    The real question is, either way Cyclops's power works, is that actually enough to defeat Superman? He has fought plenty of people that exploited his weaknesses before. That alone isn't really enough.
    Last edited by Lizard Lord; 2023-11-20 at 01:54 PM.

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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lizard Lord View Post
    Is this still about Superman? How does this Cyclops talk effect how Superman would handle being in the Marvel Universe? Even if Cyclops's power could defeat Superman, what are the odds of the two of them even fighting in the first place?
    If big blue was in the Marvel Universe? 100%. Marvel is all about heroes fighting each other, has been for twenty years or so.

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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wintermoot View Post
    If big blue was in the Marvel Universe? 100%. Marvel is all about heroes fighting each other, has been for twenty years or so.
    Yea, I realized that as soon as I posted it, but my edit took too long apparently. The better question is, does that power defeat Superman either way it works. Just exploiting his weakness isn't enough as he has fought people that have done that before.

    Even if his blasts hurt or depowered Superman or whatever, he still aims at normal human speed doesn't he? What is stopping Superman from just super speeding behind Cyclops and knocking him out with a flick of his finger?
    Last edited by Lizard Lord; 2023-11-20 at 02:00 PM.

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