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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by LibraryOgre View Post
    You know, despite being into comics for more than 30 years, I have managed to completely miss Cable? Like, I know who he is, but I don't think I've read more than a handful of issues where he appeared.
    He was big in the 90s.

    By decade Nathan Christopher Summers has been in 654 comics according to this https://cmro.travis-starnes.com/char...character=1886 (not counting clone-brothers, alternate universe characters, etc)

    First 19 issues as a Baby, 1986 to 1990

    Then Old Man Cable with 1990 in New Mutants 87

    So Page 1 to 10 of those 22 pages of sequential appearances each page 30 comics long is the 90s
    Page 10 ish to 16 ish is the 2000s, page 16ish to 19ish is the 2010s, and pages 19ish to 22ish with October 2023 is the 2020s

    So that is almost 300 comics for the 90s, almost 180 comics for the 2000s, and almost 100 comics for the 2010s,

    and in the last 4 years we have seen a cable resurgence where we saw old man cable as a time travel teen (due to time travel) and a new writer writing Old Man Cable focused on bigger things while helping out.

    =====




    The utter problem of Cable as a character is you were already exposed to him and his nonsense and find him cool (or stupid) or you get silly blue screen of death with lore. Thankfully they have fixed things by making his adopted daughter the messiah, and now Cables job is to be a nice cranky war soldier / grandpa which is actually kind of cool with kids.


    Spoiler: 2019 X-Men to Now
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    I have never been a fan of Cable, but it is so nice what has happened to the Summers family with the Krakoa era.

    They gave Cable an adopted daughter in the 00s, the mutant messiah and then due to time travel they aged her up. She is the mutant messiah, but what is she saving is from besides copying mutant powers like rogue without touch and being a power amper?

    Well the 2019 solution is making Cables adopted daughter, named Hope a key mutant for a 5 mutant team that allows the resurrection of the dead, 4 people create a body via DNA and Body manipulation, magic gold eggs, a reality warper, and a time mage mutant but you also need Hope there to make it work and work as a perfect recreation. Then you insert the memories into this resurrected body.

    =====

    So Hope has a place for creating a Mutant Civilisation and restructuring, furthermore she is like Rey from Star Wars with her having no DNA legacy with the Skywalkers / Summers clan. Instead she is adopted and is Cables Daughter. It is a fabulous deconstruction / reconstruction of the chosen one myth that the X-Men has had a problem with since 1981 when Jean Grey died the first time as Phoenix and Dark Phoenix.

    Likewise Rachel Summers, Mother Askani is involved with timelines with her Girlfriend Captain Britain / Betsy Braddock with Universial Nonsense like it is a Doctor Who

    Cable has done his teenage era and his new old man era rebooted, and now he is time traveling Batman, his TO virus is an antibody for lovecraftin’ robots with the Phalanx. He is not the most powerful Psionic and that is a good thing for his TO virus is the best tool to fight the truly scary stuff.

    Vulcan is getting resolved (ongoing)

    Alex Summers is a mess still

    Cyclops had his chill phase and now he gets to be the dad we turn to during a crisis.

    Jean Grey is working through her ****.

    Maddie Summers has been through an arc and has rebooted.

    There are a couple more summers I am forgetting or ignoring. Logan one of the Summers (he has been adopted) has been Grumpy for 4 years for everyone is so happy and he is the grumpy uncle.

    Last edited by Ramza00; 2023-11-21 at 06:23 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    I would like to drop the "Cyclopse power mechanic" discussion on the grounds that We are at the pint where I don't think I can continue it without repeating myself ad infitum.

    There is something that I am failing to communicate and I don't know what it is.

    On Cable: There exists a PG-13 Cut of Deadpool 2 that has a framing device of Deadpool having kidnapped Fred Savage and tied him to the bed in a recreation of the bedroom set from The Princess Bride and is reading him the events of the movie like a story, with periodic cuts back to the bedroom set.

    When Cable shows up Savage quickly summarizes his entire convoluted backstory and demands that the story pay proper homage to it.
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  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    There is something that I am failing to communicate and I don't know what it is.
    For what it's worth, I think you're communicating quite clearly. I just don't agree with your conclusions. But yes, dropping that (wildly off topic) thread of the discussion might be for the best, as I doubt we'll get anywhere.

  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    He was big in the 90s.

    By decade Nathan Christopher Summers has been in 654 comics according to this https://cmro.travis-starnes.com/char...character=1886 (not counting clone-brothers, alternate universe characters, etc)

    First 19 issues as a Baby, 1986 to 1990

    Then Old Man Cable with 1990 in New Mutants 87

    So Page 1 to 10 of those 22 pages of sequential appearances each page 30 comics long is the 90s
    Page 10 ish to 16 ish is the 2000s, page 16ish to 19ish is the 2010s, and pages 19ish to 22ish with October 2023 is the 2020s

    So that is almost 300 comics for the 90s, almost 180 comics for the 2000s, and almost 100 comics for the 2010s,

    and in the last 4 years we have seen a cable resurgence where we saw old man cable as a time travel teen (due to time travel) and a new writer writing Old Man Cable focused on bigger things while helping out.

    =====




    The utter problem of Cable as a character is you were already exposed to him and his nonsense and find him cool (or stupid) or you get silly blue screen of death with lore. Thankfully they have fixed things by making his adopted daughter the messiah, and now Cables job is to be a nice cranky war soldier / grandpa which is actually kind of cool with kids.


    Spoiler: 2019 X-Men to Now
    Show

    I have never been a fan of Cable, but it is so nice what has happened to the Summers family with the Krakoa era.

    They gave Cable an adopted daughter in the 00s, the mutant messiah and then due to time travel they aged her up. She is the mutant messiah, but what is she saving is from besides copying mutant powers like rogue without touch and being a power amper?

    Well the 2019 solution is making Cables adopted daughter, named Hope a key mutant for a 5 mutant team that allows the resurrection of the dead, 4 people create a body via DNA and Body manipulation, magic gold eggs, a reality warper, and a time mage mutant but you also need Hope there to make it work and work as a perfect recreation. Then you insert the memories into this resurrected body.

    =====

    So Hope has a place for creating a Mutant Civilisation and restructuring, furthermore she is like Rey from Star Wars with her having no DNA legacy with the Skywalkers / Summers clan. Instead she is adopted and is Cables Daughter. It is a fabulous deconstruction / reconstruction of the chosen one myth that the X-Men has had a problem with since 1981 when Jean Grey died the first time as Phoenix and Dark Phoenix.

    Likewise Rachel Summers, Mother Askani is involved with timelines with her Girlfriend Captain Britain / Betsy Braddock with Universial Nonsense like it is a Doctor Who

    Cable has done his teenage era and his new old man era rebooted, and now he is time traveling Batman, his TO virus is an antibody for lovecraftin’ robots with the Phalanx. He is not the most powerful Psionic and that is a good thing for his TO virus is the best tool to fight the truly scary stuff.

    Vulcan is getting resolved (ongoing)

    Alex Summers is a mess still

    Cyclops had his chill phase and now he gets to be the dad we turn to during a crisis.

    Jean Grey is working through her ****.

    Maddie Summers has been through an arc and has rebooted.

    There are a couple more summers I am forgetting or ignoring. Logan one of the Summers (he has been adopted) has been Grumpy for 4 years for everyone is so happy and he is the grumpy uncle.


    I remember the first time I was exposed to Cable was in the 90's X-Men cartoon. He was a total badass and I liked him. Definitely one of the better characters to come out of the late-80's/Early-90's.

  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by VampiricLongbow View Post
    I remember the first time I was exposed to Cable was in the 90's X-Men cartoon. He was a total badass and I liked him. Definitely one of the better characters to come out of the late-80's/Early-90's.
    I don't remember exactly when I first encountered Cable, but I do have a vague memory of being confused about how he was the son of the obviously much younger Cyclops. Ah, the innocence of the days when we couldn't just check a wiki for everyone's convoluted backstory.

  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    We have 4 pages of posts debating Cyclops vs. Superman, and 1.5 pages of posts on the original topic...and I guess a few posts about Cable now?
    Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2023-11-21 at 10:23 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Back to the original topic, I'll repeat the idea that if anything is going to prevent Clrark from thriving it will be the general...

    Marvel is more fun than DC on the surfac but it's also a lot more cynical under the surface(compared DC, which is serious on the surfaces but much more optimistic)

    The constant government-sanctioned hate crimes and the regular hero vs hero conflicts... Clakr's greatest power is his empathy. This kind of thing would make him hurt, emotionally. Seeing that many people in pain for no reason at all, the pointless fighting, the government corruption. Clark might not literally be human, but in terms of psyche, he's only that.

    He tries to see the good in everyone, but in the Marvel universe there are far too many people who just... don't have any, and often enough, those are ordinary people who happen to be in positions of power.
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  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    I feel like Clark could survive and even dominate just fine, but as far as thrive...not unless he could somehow stay connected to his own universe. A big part of him is his non-super civilian support network - Lois, Ma+Pa, Jimmy if he exists in this continuity, etc. Cut him off from all the people that help him stay grounded as Clark Kent, and I think he'd be miserable.
    See previous. I think he'll also suffer from not having the people he's used to leaning on emotionally for support, especially with the added stress of the crapsack universe he's in.

  9. - Top - End - #129
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Back to the original topic, I'll repeat the idea that if anything is going to prevent Clrark from thriving it will be the general...
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    See previous. I think he'll also suffer from not having the people he's used to leaning on emotionally for support, especially with the added stress of the crapsack universe he's in.
    Okay who would Clark’s support galley be in Marvel? Who is his Jimmy Olsen, his Lois Lane? (Sidenote Superman Legacy casting drop this weekend and now Clark is younger than me 😩 )

    Obviously Spider-Man would be Clark’s introduction to Marvel Comics for 5 or so issues, but by issue 6 Clark would find Peter a Therapist for Clark can see a man with the world on his shoulders who is not coping well, and how humor is masking his hurt. And thus the friendly neighborhood spider-man would be the starting crutch and also something used to touchbase and introduce new readers every six months for Clark and Peter would get pie at some New York diner, a ritual in the comics, twice a year.
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  10. - Top - End - #130
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Marvel is more fun than DC on the surfac

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  11. - Top - End - #131
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    For what it's worth, I think you're communicating quite clearly. I just don't agree with your conclusions. But yes, dropping that (wildly off topic) thread of the discussion might be for the best, as I doubt we'll get anywhere.
    Agree with this, I understand what you're saying quite clearly, I just don't understand why you think it has to be that way.




    Anyways, I disagree that Marvel is that much of a crap-sack world. It's more unpleasant than DC, sure. But it isn't set up to fail, and Superman could do some serious good, make friends, and change the world for the better. And its not like any of the idiots or jerks really pose a threat to Superman. Like, Superman is still a top level hero. There are very few things in the Marvel universe that can threaten him, and there are lots of villains, problems, and evil organizations that Superman could just shut down with very little effort.
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  12. - Top - End - #132
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Anyways, I disagree that Marvel is that much of a crap-sack world. It's more unpleasant than DC, sure. But it isn't set up to fail, and Superman could do some serious good, make friends, and change the world for the better. And its not like any of the idiots or jerks really pose a threat to Superman. Like, Superman is still a top level hero. There are very few things in the Marvel universe that can threaten him, and there are lots of villains, problems, and evil organizations that Superman could just shut down with very little effort.
    The biggest problem with Superman in Marvel is the relative dearth of gorilla-related antics he could get up to.
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  13. - Top - End - #133
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Anyways, I disagree that Marvel is that much of a crap-sack world. It's more unpleasant than DC, sure. But it isn't set up to fail, and Superman could do some serious good, make friends, and change the world for the better. And its not like any of the idiots or jerks really pose a threat to Superman. Like, Superman is still a top level hero. There are very few things in the Marvel universe that can threaten him, and there are lots of villains, problems, and evil organizations that Superman could just shut down with very little effort.
    Marvel's biggest problem is that it's too cluttered, especially on Earth. Marvel has straight up more than double as many characters as DC, and the setting is very much overstuffed. I mean, even Marvel publishing has openly acknowledged this at points: like the time they had Scarlett Witch depower every off-screen mutant in the franchise (a number given as 'millions'). Adding Superman to the universe just means adding one more top-level character to the mix, of which there are easily dozens. There's absolutely a lot of stuff Superman could do, if he carves out a niche, but otherwise the net effect is basically adding a duplicate of Adam Warlock or Silver Surfer to the universe. Since those guys get along well enough, Superman will probably be okay, but he wouldn't be foundational in Marvel the way he is in DC.
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  14. - Top - End - #134
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    The biggest problem with Superman in Marvel is the relative dearth of gorilla-related antics he could get up to.
    while you slept, the world changed*

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    From issue 1 of the X-Men the 2019 relaunch

    Orchis the evil human supremacist / survival organisation made these


    *Jonathan Hickman likes using one or two sentences as constant themes throughout his works. Especially around sleep and dream metaphors, this is one of the two main ones he used for his 2019 X-Men. The other main line is “it’s not a dream, if it’s real”


    So we are working on it 😌
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  15. - Top - End - #135
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    while you slept, the world changed*

    Spoiler: 2019
    Show

    From issue 1 of the X-Men the 2019 relaunch

    Orchis the evil human supremacist / survival organisation made these


    *Jonathan Hickman likes using one or two sentences as constant themes throughout his works. Especially around sleep and dream metaphors, this is one of the two main ones he used for his 2019 X-Men. The other main line is “it’s not a dream, if it’s real”


    So we are working on it 😌
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  16. - Top - End - #136
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    Marvel's biggest problem is that it's too cluttered, especially on Earth. Marvel has straight up more than double as many characters as DC, and the setting is very much overstuffed. I mean, even Marvel publishing has openly acknowledged this at points: like the time they had Scarlett Witch depower every off-screen mutant in the franchise (a number given as 'millions'). Adding Superman to the universe just means adding one more top-level character to the mix, of which there are easily dozens. There's absolutely a lot of stuff Superman could do, if he carves out a niche, but otherwise the net effect is basically adding a duplicate of Adam Warlock or Silver Surfer to the universe. Since those guys get along well enough, Superman will probably be okay, but he wouldn't be foundational in Marvel the way he is in DC.
    The problem you'd run into with adding Superman to a new universe is that he was such a foundational character that most superhero universes have at least one character who is blatantly cribbing notes from him. So you can sort of piece together how he'd fit by looking at the guys who are already basically like him.

    Now, if Marvel had somehow obtained Superman as a character earlier in their history and he became a foundational part of the setting, that's a more interesting question.

  17. - Top - End - #137
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Errorname View Post
    The problem you'd run into with adding Superman to a new universe is that he was such a foundational character that most superhero universes have at least one character who is blatantly cribbing notes from him. So you can sort of piece together how he'd fit by looking at the guys who are already basically like him.

    Now, if Marvel had somehow obtained Superman as a character earlier in their history and he became a foundational part of the setting, that's a more interesting question.
    It would be cool (but probably not the best idea) to do something like what Marvel did with Sentry - add a powerful character to their existing canon. Have that character be a big part of the the universe's history and then have someone (or something) erase everyone's memory of Superman. Then Superman comes back and has a bunch of interesting comic arcs and story beats with all of the most famous characters.

    More generally, when Superman is added to the continuity is an important question. Was he out there fighting the Nazis with Captain America in WWII? Did he come more recently (like the New 52)? Even more broadly, is this Superman native to the Marvel Universe or is he from the DC universe and is now stuck in the Marvel Universe.

  18. - Top - End - #138
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    The problem with adding Superman to the Marvel universe is there's a lot of stuff that goes on that he wouldn't abide. He'd never allow mutants to be treated the way they are, for example, and he'd personally destroy the Sentinel Programme even if it meant throwing ORCHIS into the sun. Similarly, if you told Clark that a purple alien warlord called Thanos was collecting magic gemstones to wipe out half of all life in the universe, he'd just find them all and destroy them first or he'd just go straight to Thanos himself and beat the heck out of him and send him to the Phantom Zone.

    I guess what I'm saying is the Marvel universe relies on having weaker heroes that cannot meaningfully change the status quo and often need to team up to take on larger threats and stronger heroes that simply don't get involved in affairs outside of their purview and only help on specific occasions. Clark is typically on a completely different level to your regular Marvel superheroes and most of the stronger Marvel superheroes too and he doesn't really do the "it's below my paygrade" thing. He would happily, gladly, take a few minutes out of his day to help get a cat out of a tree or rescue people from a burning building or even just talk to someone that needs someone who will listen to them. Then he'd go punch Galactus in the face so hard he'll be eating planets through a straw for the next thousand years.

    Superman is who every superhero aspires to become and that's why he's the one superhero deconstructed the most. He's just too good. In the DC universe it's okay because there are a great many bad guys that can match him blow for blow and the "power level" of the universe, if you will, accounts for the fact Superman exists there. Even regular humans like Lex Luthor and Bruce Wayne inexplicably tango with characters that can punch planets so hard they explode. The same isn't true for Marvel. What's Frank Castle going to do when Superman shows up and tells him to stop?
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  19. - Top - End - #139
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infernally Clay View Post
    The problem with adding Superman to the Marvel universe is there's a lot of stuff that goes on that he wouldn't abide. He'd never allow mutants to be treated the way they are, for example, and he'd personally destroy the Sentinel Programme even if it meant throwing ORCHIS into the sun. Similarly, if you told Clark that a purple alien warlord called Thanos was collecting magic gemstones to wipe out half of all life in the universe, he'd just find them all and destroy them first or he'd just go straight to Thanos himself and beat the heck out of him and send him to the Phantom Zone.
    You mean like the way he overthrew Lex Luthor when he was president and started the anti-supers legislation? Or has put and end to the suicide squad program and stopped Amanda Waller? Or how he overthrew Darkseid or Mongol to keep them from continually threatening the universe, beating them up and sending themto the phantom zone?

    Sorry, but I don't agree with your characterization of Big Blue. He has proven to be the most reactionary of reactionary superheroes, responding only when the crisis point is passed, not before. That's why so many "deconstructions" of him start with "he starts fixing problems instead of responding to threats"

  20. - Top - End - #140
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wintermoot View Post
    You mean like the way he overthrew Lex Luthor when he was president and started the anti-supers legislation? Or has put and end to the suicide squad program and stopped Amanda Waller? Or how he overthrew Darkseid or Mongol to keep them from continually threatening the universe, beating them up and sending themto the phantom zone?

    Sorry, but I don't agree with your characterization of Big Blue. He has proven to be the most reactionary of reactionary superheroes, responding only when the crisis point is passed, not before. That's why so many "deconstructions" of him start with "he starts fixing problems instead of responding to threats"
    Superman's power level vis a vis Marvel is also highly contentious. Marvel has incredibly powerful characters. The Hulk, for example, is sufficiently powerful that if he fights at full strength he breaks spacetime and rapidly runs out of places to stand on in order to fight at all. Ultron, similarly, can fight coalitions of hundreds of heroes including the Hulk, to the point that universe itself struggles to contain them and weird temporal anomalies form. Marvel also has numerous 'reality warper' characters like Scarlet Witch, Proteus, and Molecule Man, who basically possess the power of plot device, long the bane of Superman.

    In terms of the Marvel characters who Superman is most similar to, it's probably Gladiator. Projecting Superman into Marvel as a slightly more powerful version of Gladiator - Big Blue probably KOs Kallark in round seven or eight - is significant, but not overwhelming. It would be highly disruptive on Earth, if Supes stayed there, but just as in DC, he's likely to spend much of his time off-planet. Assuming he picked a faction to champion, which is tricky, the Marvel cosmos is rather short of 'good guys,' that group would immediately become a major player, but that's about the ceiling.
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  21. - Top - End - #141
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    To poke that nest; Iceman has been flat out proven to be beyond omega, but not using his abilities to the fullest, Gambit has proven to be able to blow things up:organic or not, by just looking at them, and Nightcrawler has literally held portals open for weeks on end which is far higher than anything Scott has done. Essex used what was available; Vulcan was who he always wanted and was always out of his reach; Scott was just the easiest to manipulate of the sons of Corsair. And the self feedback loop of him not even doing it if scott and jean never time traveled isn't lost on anyone, and has several comics exploring that.


    I dont think big Blue would thrive in marvel, even with his support group. His ideology clashes way too much, and the current two biggest things to hit the marvel multiverse was the symbiot nonsense and the current run of the xmen where senator kelly is CONSISTENTLY being proven the voice of reason.

    The former he wouldn't sit around and just watch like supposedly everyone else till it became too much of a problem. The latter... well if it was Red Son Supes, he might be okay with it... but big blue would absolutely riot and fight the American people that endorsed the... trimming i will say, of mutants, only to have whiplash just to find out the whole damn thing was setup BY mutants... Essex in particular... only to whip again when he learns that it was FUTURE humans that did it, just to find out that there's a literal time loop in place that mutants keep resetting and he would most likely be done with the whole thing at that point and go back to DC. Say what you want about batmetal, at least it didnt keep this crap out and keep rebooting into it.

  22. - Top - End - #142
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    To poke that nest; Iceman has been flat out proven to be beyond omega, but not using his abilities to the fullest, Gambit has proven to be able to blow things up:organic or not, by just looking at them, and Nightcrawler has literally held portals open for weeks on end which is far higher than anything Scott has done. Essex used what was available; Vulcan was who he always wanted and was always out of his reach; Scott was just the easiest to manipulate of the sons of Corsair. And the self feedback loop of him not even doing it if scott and jean never time traveled isn't lost on anyone, and has several comics exploring that.
    1: They're all using external energy for that like every other mutant who isn't Scott.

    2: Ice Man is only Omega-Level. Beyond Omga is a very nebulous term but the only mutants referred to as Beyond Omega are Vulcan, X-Man, Power House, Mercurter, and one reality warper who's name escapes me. You know, people who if they said they were Captial G Gods, you would believe them. Bobby's a strong son of a bitch but he's nowhere near that tier.

    3: Barring a brief time when Scott was depowered, he has been holding his portals open since his power first activated.

    Which, given the way the Sliding Scale Timeline works, is literally well over sixty years at this point. That beats out a few weeks.

    3: I call bull**** on Vulcan being the one that Sinister always wanted on the grounds that Vulcan literally wasn't born yet when Sinister first got his hands on Scott. Scott's mother was pregnant with him when the Summers parents were abducted by aliens and he was extracted and gestated to young adulthood artificially.

    Furthermore, while Vuclan is more powerful than Scott theres no indication that his powers break Thermodynamics to the same degree that Scott's do.

    Edit: Where the hell are you getting that the current genocide was set up by the mutants? What Sinister did was unrelated, this is entire thing was orchestrated by ORCHIS.

    Are you maybe confusing Mister Sinister with Dr. Stasis? Doctor Stasis is a differant clone of Nathaniel Essex who has no mutant DNA whatsoever.
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    I dont think big Blue would thrive in marvel, even with his support group. His ideology clashes way too much, and the current two biggest things to hit the marvel multiverse was the symbiot nonsense and the current run of the xmen where senator kelly is CONSISTENTLY being proven the voice of reason.
    Just a reminder that the Gay Mutant Romance Author, St John Allerdyce (the Pyro) changed Senator Robert Kelly’s mind on “the Mutant Question” while Kelly was running for President.

    And then a human named Alan Lewis killed Senator Kelly during the Dreams End event (year 2000), at the same event Moira was killed by Mystique on Muir Isle. Lewis felt betrayed by Kelly being right
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Furthermore, while Vuclan is more powerful than Scott theres no indication that his powers break Thermodynamics to the same degree that Scott's do.
    The Asgardians all do, though. You yourself only rebutted them with "they're gods", which is kind of meaningless when anyone with superpowers can be likened to a god.
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    1: They're all using external energy for that like every other mutant who isn't Scott.

    2: Ice Man is only Omega-Level. Beyond Omga is a very nebulous term but the only mutants referred to as Beyond Omega are Vulcan, X-Man, Power House, Mercurter, and one reality warper who's name escapes me. You know, people who if they said they were Captial G Gods, you would believe them. Bobby's a strong son of a bitch but he's nowhere near that tier.

    3: Barring a brief time when Scott was depowered, he has been holding his portals open since his power first activated.

    Which, given the way the Sliding Scale Timeline works, is literally well over sixty years at this point. That beats out a few weeks.

    3: I call bull**** on Vulcan being the one that Sinister always wanted on the grounds that Vulcan literally wasn't born yet when Sinister first got his hands on Scott. Scott's mother was pregnant with him when the Summers parents were abducted by aliens and he was extracted and gestated to young adulthood artificially.

    Furthermore, while Vuclan is more powerful than Scott theres no indication that his powers break Thermodynamics to the same degree that Scott's do.

    Edit: Where the hell are you getting that the current genocide was set up by the mutants? What Sinister did was unrelated, this is entire thing was orchestrated by ORCHIS.

    Are you maybe confusing Mister Sinister with Dr. Stasis? Doctor Stasis is a differant clone of Nathaniel Essex who has no mutant DNA whatsoever.
    1. Gambit maybe, Nightcrawler is a NO. His dad did the same thing and in both cases it was them making the portals, not an outside factor.
    2. Iceman was confirmed beyond by Frost. Like Gambit, he had mental blocks in place on what hes allowed to do; in his specific case, he can freeze atoms. But considering he has hang-ups on melting to water then becoming vapor, then reforming himself, I would too.

    3. False: he has slept, has had at several points complete control and of the few times that he was rezzed on krakoa control and REQUESTS to be broken again. Hes not like jean who is straight up dead and is still using her powers. And even still that does not change the fact that others are doing similar and have done similar.


    3.2 (i guess) Sinister KNEW about the entire Summers line cause he directly tampered with them. He wanted Vulcan. The only reason Scott knew about Vulcan was because Sinister essentially mike dropped.
    He wanted Vulcan.After the time loop was reset he even made NOTES about his failure, one of which was not getting Vulcan. And Vulcan isn't just "more powerful ", he flat out warps reality like Franklin. Vulcan was the reason that Xavier wiped two XMen teams memories: cause they FAILED to bring him in.

    On your edit: Sinister is still Sinister. Replacing the label on the tin doesn't change the contents inside unless you actually, you know, change the contents.

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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    The Asgardians all do, though. You yourself only rebutted them with "they're gods", which is kind of meaningless when anyone with superpowers can be likened to a god.
    No, "they're Gods" was the explanation for how they're tapping external energy.

    They, like Mutants, are using external energy.

    Explcitly. When Hercules(differant species of God but bear with me) lost his powers, he eventually got them back with the help of a scintist who studies superpowers and who coined the term "god source" to refer to these extradimensional powers.

    Also, I was a bit more specific than that.
    As for the Asgardians... Literally a race of gods. Not all of them are the Gods of things, but still. Gods. Living stories whose physical forms are built from the ground up to fulfill their designated roles.
    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    1. Gambit maybe, Nightcrawler is a NO. His dad did the same thing and in both cases it was them making the portals, not an outside factor.
    2. Iceman was confirmed beyond by Frost. Like Gambit, he had mental blocks in place on what hes allowed to do; in his specific case, he can freeze atoms. But considering he has hang-ups on melting to water then becoming vapor, then reforming himself, I would too.

    3. False: he has slept, has had at several points complete control and of the few times that he was rezzed on krakoa control and REQUESTS to be broken again. Hes not like jean who is straight up dead and is still using her powers. And even still that does not change the fact that others are doing similar and have done similar.


    3.2 (i guess) Sinister KNEW about the entire Summers line cause he directly tampered with them. He wanted Vulcan. The only reason Scott knew about Vulcan was because Sinister essentially mike dropped.
    He wanted Vulcan.After the time loop was reset he even made NOTES about his failure, one of which was not getting Vulcan. And Vulcan isn't just "more powerful ", he flat out warps reality like Franklin. Vulcan was the reason that Xavier wiped two XMen teams memories: cause they FAILED to bring him in.

    On your edit: Sinister is still Sinister. Replacing the label on the tin doesn't change the contents inside unless you actually, you know, change the contents.
    1: Nightcrawler and Azazel are mutants. Their powers work the way mutant powers work, which unless you are an explicit exception, is via cosmic energy leaching tio their bodies from an external source.

    2: Emma Frost is not a reliable source on who is and is not a mutant of what classification. Reliable sources have only ver called Bobby Omega LEvel and his peak demonstrated abilities are consistent with that.

    3: Not false. Scott has literally been depicted as sleeping with a special mask on specifically because his optic blasts don't turn off when he's asleep.

    3.2: Again, Vulcan literally was not born yet when Sinister was first working on Scott.

    4: The contents are different. Doctor Stasis has no mutant DNA whatsoever and has different goals from Mister Sinister. He is, in fact, working at cross purposes against him as Sister sees mutants as the key to his taking over the world while Stasis sees them as an evolutionary dead end and wants to wipe them out to make room for engineered post-humans.

    Blaming Mister Sinister, and thus "The Mutants," fr what Dr. Stasis is doing as part of ORCHIS is...

    Literally like blaming an entire race for crimes committed by one guy's twin.
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    I feel like there are three different topics all going on here at once:

    1. Scott Summers is a walking violation of the laws of thermodynamics, unique in the marvel universe, and historically important for that fact. Rater is consistently making good points on this topic, and I can respect the lore discussions.
    2. Other mutants exist who could reduce Cyclops to a red smear or worse. In the context of a vs. thread, being historically important, unique, and a violation of physical law are not trump cards. Unless extradimensional energy beams are somehow anti-Superman tech (which I think this whole subtopic came up to dispute that claim), Cyclops vs. Superman is not a hard call to make.
    3. Metatextually, while other mutants might be said to tap into an energy source that obeys thermodynamics, in practice that source will never run dry because nobody wants to turn the spigot off on multiple popular and profitable comic lines. On top of that, even for characters and technologies claimed to be nonpowered, "physical laws" often have a fair amount of give to them. So while there's a narrative value to cosmic force being finite while punch dimension is infinite, there's also a good Doylist case to be made that most supers can be seen as having perpetual potential.

  28. - Top - End - #148
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Just a reminder that the Gay Mutant Romance Author, St John Allerdyce (the Pyro) changed Senator Robert Kelly’s mind on “the Mutant Question” while Kelly was running for President.

    And then a human named Alan Lewis killed Senator Kelly during the Dreams End event (year 2000), at the same event Moira was killed by Mystique on Muir Isle. Lewis felt betrayed by Kelly being right
    Multi quoting on a phone sucks lol. I meant Kelly in the sense of morally: what he said back in the day or more publicly known on the cartoon show is showing to be an accurate judgement SOMEHOW. Its plausible the mutants can regain that lost favor... but its more likely that they as a whole arent going to be welcomed on earth any time soon... well... outside Latveria. Doom does what he wants.

    Anywho, I agree with Peelee. Nothing about Scott is super hyper special: he's had control over his beams for years since Frost intervened, brown eyes that glow red before he fires; they stopped being portals since 86 and went back to being just eye beams; and he HAS ran out of energy, negating the (infinite) crap that seems to hover around him. And to top it off, the whole ( gather power externally is what other mutants do) applies to Scott. Or is he now the Sun?

    Rater.
    1. By your own definition Scott leeches power. The ONLY summers child that didnt is Vulcan. Who Sinister wants. When he first ran into Scott and Alex, alex seemed to have no power, and Scott used the EXACT same abilities as the time traveler that set him more or less on that road anyway. But considering that hes been tampering with the family line he knew even then about Vulcan cause again, the only reason Scott knew was cause Sinister let that slip. Xavier wasn't going to say anything; he buried two teams over him. And the parents sure as hell wasnt coming back to earth to tell Sinister about the third kid.

    2. Emma has BEEN reliable. When she says Bobby can nuke a universe, thats not overestimating. When she says Storm is over, and in a future timeline before the reset Storm actually DOES nuke a universe, then that's just facts at that point. Hell, in the current arc Storm KILLED Vulcan, who is confirmed over. Like it was nothing. Emma has been a lot more productive since ditching the white queen persona ; especially since jean is around to fact check her lol.

    3. Scotts beams are blocked by his eyelids, the mask wasnt always for that, its for waking up and him not having his glasses, and again, thats before emma stepped in. Hell, he didnt need them when he was the phoenix either.

    3.2. Was answered.

    4. When that twin is doing the same things it doesnt really matter now does it? Cause remember, the reason for the morlock massacre was because BEAST tampered with those mutants with crap he learned from his timeline's Sinister, and the current timeline Sinister didn't like his crap being used if hes not the one doing it and ordered the strike.

  29. - Top - End - #149
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    Rater.
    1. By your own definition Scott leeches power.
    Explain how "absorbs energy form sunlight and then converts it into 'mutant energy' at a rae that might as well be generating energy from nothing given that h's getitng millions of times more than what he's taking in" is the sanme as "leaching 'mutant energy in the exct ammount you need form an extradimensional source.'"

    Also, Vulcan' powr is absorbing energy and thn using what he absorbs. If Scott is "leaching energy" then even if Vulcan's powers wored th sam as Scott's so does he.

    Regardless, Scott is explcitly and uniquely "special" and no ammmount of you arguing th epoint will make it non-canon.

    [quote]2. Emma has BEEN reliable. When she says Bobby can nuke a universe, thats not overestimating. When she says Storm is over, and in a future timeline before the reset Storm actually DOES nuke a universe, then that's just facts at that point. Hell, in the current arc Storm KILLED Vulcan, who is confirmed over. Like it was nothing. Emma has been a lot more productive since ditching the white queen persona ; especially since jean is around to fact check her lol.[quote]Citation on Emma saying Bobby can nuke a universe.

    When that twin is doing the same things it doesnt really matter now does it? Cause remember, the reason for the morlock massacre was because BEAST tampered with those mutants with crap he learned from his timeline's Sinister, and the current timeline Sinister didn't like his crap being used if hes not the one doing it and ordered the strike.
    ...The **** are you talking about? What "timelines?" I think you're drastically confusing multiple unrelated plot threads.
    Last edited by Rater202; 2023-11-29 at 05:49 PM.
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    Default Re: Could Superman *thrive* in the Marvel Universe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post

    Regardless, Scott is explcitly and uniquely "special" and no ammmount of you arguing th epoint will make it non-canon.
    That's all you had to say. You are misled in your assumptions, but from that statement you don't care to be corrected. Fair enough. Free country and all.

    Anything and everything that has to do with mutants in general and the XMen in particular has to deal with at some point time travel and multiple timelines. Age of Apocalypse? Happened. But was shunted off the main timeline. Cable? Bishop? Nate? Time travelers. You know about the T-O virus, which came from the future timeline that is no longer the future of the current timeline. Sinister wouldn't even be doing the things he does if it wasn't for temporal manipulations, in general, and him literally meeting Scott and Jean from the future in particular. Hell, Dr. DOOM of all people told them on their home island that playing with time is a REALLY bad idea. That's been their shtick in the Marvel Universe for decades. Either trying to prevent the super dark future or cleaning up after their attempt for trying to prevent it.

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