Didn't Need An Army

[Larsaan]

Yeah, to boil it down to two concise points:

1: Taking and holding the gate without overwhelming force would require years, possibly decades, of infiltrating Azure City and altering its political structure and culture.

2: This is hypothetically doable, but not by Team Evil.

[gbaji]

First off, let me say that I *technically* agree with the literal point you are making (that you don't need to conquer the city with an army to take control of the gate). But I do think it's largely a distinction without a difference. The underlying point of that is that since Azure City is, well... a city, you have to take control of that city, and specifically the Throne Room of the City, for an extended period of time (weeks to do the ritual IIRC). You are correct that there are alternative ways to take control of a city, but IMO most if not all of them require a lot more work, a lot more time, and frankly a heck of a lot more luck than "conquer it with a large army". Anything less than "we just control it and no one else can say squat" gives them a secure period of time to do the ritual, and taking it via subterfuge is unlikely to actually give TE that level of control.

I'll address a couple of the sticking points I see.

Wait. There was a whole thing about paladins not showing any signs of falling after murdering children, but now Ryu Average is going to know the paladins have not fallen? Based, of course, on their say-so.

Azure City is a social and political ecosystem. You're treating it like there are just a few factors and factions and nothing else matters. The majority of the citizens worship the 12 gods. There are a host of temples to said gods, with priests and whatnot, and folks attending services, etc. Even if we assume that somehow SG paladins could fall without anyone knowing, and we assume that the public can come to believe that the entire SG has been corrupted, has fallen, and is just pretending to still be paladins or something (pretty much the only way the whole "disband the SG" plan could work), there are a host of other clerics and diviners who could confirm or dispute that.

This entire bit basically requires the entire citizenry of Azure City to abandon their beliefs in their deities and trust in their priests just as a result of a smallish amount of political wrangling. That seems highly unlikely. And even if somehow you made the rank citizens believe this, the actual clerics of the various temples would not fall for it at all. There would be a vast majority of the actual powerful leveled people in the city who would know that Kuboto was involved in a coup, and was in league with some evil bad guys as well (and that they were trying to frame the SG for some reason). There's a point at which political politeness falls to "nope. We're just going to take this guy off the board now". And that would happen well before TE got anywhere near the throne room IMO.

Who is going to know they haven't fallen? Who is going to care? I'm using Shojo's long con against him. He's obviously nuts, so who is pulling his strings? I'm hinting that the SG are not what they pretend to be in public. They have usurped control of the city from its rightful rulers. I want to return power to the nobility. I'm on their side.

Again. The entire priesthood of the 12 gods would know this. All of their seers would know that (and that Kuboto was the threat to the city, not Shojo). I think you are massively misreading just how much more powerful the side opposed to TE is in terms fo ability to influence public opinion. Not the least of which reason is that they actually do have the truth on their side, which is a big deal in a world where divination spells actually exist to determine what "the truth" is. Kuboto exists in a world where he can get away with a lot because there are conventions in place that afford his class (political, not character) protections from being questioned like a common criminal might. But if he oversteps, he will be subjected to greater scrutiny, at which point his true nature will come forth and he'll be done.

Kubota trying to sit on the throne is likely to be a public event, with lots of factions watching. When the Ghost Martyrs attack, it will be public. All I have to do is spin the story. Even if TeeVo is out, eyewitnesses will spread the tale.

Why would the Ghost Martyrs attack Kuboto? In this scenario, he just thinks TE is helping him gain control of the city, right? I didn't see anywhere in your plan where he's actually in on the plan to take control of the gate, nor hand it over to TE to perform a ritual to threaten the gods. And frankly, if he did know this, he would never go along with the plan. He doesn't want to threaten the gods (he presuambly worships some of them). He just wants control of the city. So if he doesn't know this, then he's not actually a threat, and he wont be attacked. He's just a self serving noble who's gained political power.

So... Kubuto sits on the throne and is coronated without incident (well, ninja attacks are possible I suppose). How do we get from here to "TE takes the throne room for a few weeks to do the ritual?".

That's the second huge flaw in this plan. TE would have to be lying to Kuboto. Which means there would have to be a betrayal right at this point. Either by Kuboto to destroy TE, or TE to put Kuboto off to the side so they can do the ritual (and somehow not be noticed for several weeks while doing this). Once it become obvious to anyone that TE has taken the throne room, and is doing something nasty (which btw means that TE will be attacked by Soon and the Martyrs), the entire resources of every faction in the city will be rallied against TE. There is zero chance of TE holding the gateroom at that point.

As a side point to this, your plan also fails to recognize that Kuboto is already working for some devils. They might very well not at all be interested in TE actually completing their ritutal (there's still some question as to whether the IFCC was already using Quarr as an operative at this point or not). In any case though, Kuboto clearly does not have "help TE perform their ritutal" as part of his plans, so at some point TE will be attacked by more or less everyone in the city.

The paladins raising a military resistance against the rightful lord of the city?

Remember, at this point I have sowed enough misinformation that at least some believe the SG are behind the assassinations. (Eyewitnesses will have seen them do it!) If they begin to raise a resistance this will only confirm that they were out to usurp the throne all along.

None of which should have worked in the first place. But even if they did, the moment Kuboto was betrayed (or betrayed TE and failed), the only thing keeping that subterfuge alive disappears. At that moment, all of these factions realize they've been tricked, and join as one to get rid of TE.

Misinformation only works until it's revealed as such. TE has to take control of the throne room and hold it for the ritutal for weeks. There's no way Kuboto or whatever faction represents the "lord of the City" allows them to do this. And sure, we could speculate some magical means employed to force Kuboto to allow them to do this, but it's hard to believe that any successful politician in this world doesn't have layers of magical means to prevent this very thing, maybe not in the very short term (like we saw with the dwarven council), but certainly in the long term. Aides that regularly cast magic on their bosses to make sure they aren't being controlled by someone else, rooms that block mental communication/control, or any of a number of other things. The point is that there's just no way to pull this off for weeks without lots of people figuring it out, and once that happens, all of those normally fighting and maneuvering political factions will all aliign in one direction: To wipe out TE and remove them from their throne room.

TE would not have a chance against that. Certainly they would not be able to complete the ritual once that happens.

My plan neutralizes any resistance before it forms. The nobility is firmly in Kubota's pocket and by everything the city folk know, the SG drove good Lord Shojo mad so they could displace the rightful rulers of the land. Those who believe the paladins might help them get out of the city, but they won't be ready to start a war.

No. It tricks that resistance into standing down because they think this is just normal political maneuvering and in-fighting. The moment those other factors realize that this isn't what's going on, and that the throne room is being controlled by a lich and a cleric of TDO? It's game over. The house of cards falls, and everyone joins against TE. There is no political promise or trickery that gets any of the Azure City factions to stand by while TE completes the ritual. None. Thus, even if they do succeed in every step up to that point, that's the point everything will fall apart.

[brian 333]

A lot more, and more varied, responses than I'd anticipated. It will take a while to wade through them.

This is patently incorrect in a crucial way. Team Evil only picked Azure City as their next target AFTER the army fell into their lap. Given that Xykon knows teleport, I find it exceptionally likely that they'd have headed straight for Girard's gate instead without the army.

Also starting a theoretical discussion that breaks down how a group of characters could accomplish something, and then alternating between them having personalities when the stats won't help and stats when the personalities won't help, then shelving them completely when neither helps, is kind of a dishonest move. Xykon won't be content to be Kubota's attack dog and then sit in a basement while the politics play out, he'll look to entertain himself. He entertains himself by killing things and indulging in cruel black comedy. This tendency VASTLY increases the risk of exposure and you can't just ignore it by calling him patient when we all know he's actually quite impulsive.

So they head for Girard's gate, just like The Oracle told Roy, and get there to find defenses up because V never murdered all the dragons, and Roy waiting to destroy the gate. Even better: Durkon never gets vampirized because that could only happen in an undefended pyramid.

I only alternated when it was demanded of me. I was perfectly happy keeping this theoretical, but was directly told I had to take personalities into account. Then I get lambasted for doing so? Not cricket, my friend. Be careful about accusations of dishonesty. I am approaching this from my PoV. You are free to disagree, but when personal attacks come out, it indicates that I have won the debate.

Xykon wouldn't be just sitting in the basement. He would be killing, and probably his first target would be Sangwaan. When he wasn't doing that he'd be getting set for new targets and telling Kubota what to do. He wouldn't have time to be bored.

I feel like I should point out that "the point" of Team Evil stumbling across the hobgoblins wasn't just to give them an army (which, given their past actions, is almost certainly something they would have set about acquiring anyway), it was to put them back in the game earlier than anyone expected.

Well, that, and the fact that they were hobgoblins specifically was crucial for Redcloak's character development.

Since I am not trying to change The Giant's story or tell him how it should have been done, I'm don't see how this has anything to do with my thesis.

High level spellcasters. Distance does not matter.



Right, because he had people to murder and a paladin to torture. If he's doing that here, he's probably given the game away.



And why would he believe that? He's a paranoid, treacherous, evil megalomaniac. Of course he's not going to believe the Goblin and Lich just want to 'borrow his throne room' for a month or two!

More broadly, I'm not the original commenter, but you seem to be sliding between a couple of arguments in a manner I find confusing:

1) It is possible for a group of characters with TE's abilities to capture Soon's gate without use of an external army by internal subversion, or some other means, assuming things break their way.
2) TE could have captured Azure City by slow subversion in the universe as we see it.
3) If TE had chosen another route, or never found an army, then something else would have broken their way because due to authorial fiat they are going to capture the gate.

1 and 3 are sort of transparently true, but don't really reflect anything interesting about the Gate's defenses. A high-enough-powered band of PCs can, if they have a permissive DM and are willing to be creative, take over a city and rule it from the shadows. But that's because, especially in 3.5, a high-enough-powered band of adventurers with a permissive DM can do almost-literally anything. The author can do literally whatever they want.

2 seems fairly absurd to me. The moment TE somehow sneaks into the city and starts acting up, they're in the heart of their enemy's power, with no reliable support. Frankly, the most likely thing is that Kubota uses this to undermine Shojo/Hinjo and betrays them instantly to the Saphire Guard and his own forces (which isn't terribly likely to succeed, but blows the whole 'sneak around' plan out of the water. But even if that doesn't happen, Xykon wanders off when Redcloak is asleep and massacres and orphanage, or whatever and this also requires Redcloak to be able to be in this city without losing his **** and starting to murder paladins the moment he sees them.

But more than this, we see that the city's defenses are actually fairly well set up. It takes quite a bit of effort to sneak up on them, even from the hinterlands and they are spotted eventually (forgot this was deliberate, to try to locate the gate...which I'll point out they didn't know the location of, so they don't know they need the throne room at all and the only parties who know its location are Shojo and the leadership of the Saphire Guard). Trying to do this from within the bastion of their power strikes me as very silly. Moreover, even if Xykon and Redcloak can effectively and unlimitedly protect themselves from any surveillance, they won't necessarily be looking for them, they'll be looking for the murderer of a bunch of nobles...which seems pretty likely to lead them to Kubota, given the presence of a Seer/Diviner.

Then Shojo 'accidentally' mentions that to the heirs of the dead and suddenly Kubota's dead from 'accidentally stabbing himself thirteen times in the back' and this whole plan fails.

Slow subversion? I'm talking weeks. Far less time, in fact, than TE spent doing nothing in Gobbotopia.

Of course Kubota wants to betray TE. But he is the guy who sold his soul for literally nothing but a promise. If he sees TE advancing his cause, they are safe until he does not need them any more. Which, if TE is clever enough, will be the day after the ritual is complete.

In a city where ninjas are routinely employed, security is tight? Well defended citys do not have ninjas.

And it is a good thing that Kubota knows the Sapphire Guard has a good seer/diviner. That makes his first choice of a target very easy, and is a very good test of TE's ability. Sangwaan dead with a Sapphire Guard's blade in his back? Yes, that would make a great opening move.

Travel time is only a concern for them because they're moving with an army.



You literally said that because the story bends to give Xykon and Redcloak a huge army it would also bend to accommodate them taking the city through infiltration and subterfuge. I was directly responding to an argument you made.

Being adjacent to a potential next target and because it is where they went next in comic is why I chose to place it in the sequence I did. Pick a better time and we'll theorize from there.

The point remains valid: the GM literally gave them an army. Why would he be less generous in his setup if he had planned means other than an army for TE?

And sans the army, Xykon has Teleport and no reason not to use it. The only question left is which gate is likely to be easiest to take with just the three of them, which they probably figured was Girard's based on that they went to the desert before the arctic.

Is this you?

Is this also you?

You can't swap between it being specifically team evil, who have characterization and the psychological quirks that come with that, and them just being pawns in a game against a GM that only you can see, and say you're making an honest argument.

Either it's an undefined lich and cleric subverting A city, or it's THIS lich and cleric subverting THIS city(You'd find a Kubota type either way, so I'll concede that part). And THIS lich and cleric cannot even be seen once in THIS city without calling in the full alert, yet have shown no significant ability to do so beyond possessing a basic utility spell. Nor would THIS lich be content to sit around, as ecarden aptly pointed out two posts up. He'd find someone to hurt for fun, over and over, and the only reason it didn't bite him in Azure City was that they had total control of the city already.

I also note that Team Evil, in your plan, have done little more than give Kubota permission to do a coup, rather than be actors themselves. In fact, soon as they make contact, the best thing to do mechanically is literally bury Xykon for a while and have Redcloak cast extended buffs on the ninjas for assassination missions while staying in Kubota's attic. Your entire analysis treats them this way, as if they've become NPCs to their own plan. Recloak would probably swallow that, he's taken worse in service of the idea of controlling Xykon, but would Xykon himself take it? I'm thinking no.

On that note, by making them so passive, you haven't let Team Evil seize the throne, you've let Kubota seize the throne. Team Evil's help has been hidden from everyone the whole time, and you plan on selling the idea that the Sapphire Guard were working with undead, to strengthen Kubota's lie. Given that sales pitch and the fact that there's no way TE spills the beans on the gate, I can't think of a single reason for Kubota not to sell them up the river before Shojo's corpse cools. Again, of course, covered upthread by ecarden.

This is funny. I make a post, you claim I did not take personalities into account, so I do, and now you want to hold what I said about how I play D&D against me?

No, the ninjas stay out of it. Other than very minor fetchit roles, TE does the dirty work. Kubota is there for expert knowledge, creating disinformation, and providing a safe room for TE to plot and rest.

Lots of reasons Kubota doesn't betray TE, begining with, the moment Kubota sits on the throne Soon will be on his devil-worshipping backside like a cat on a feather. Ending with, by the time Kubota realizes what he's dealing with, he will realize that betrayal will get him turned into a corpse puppet. Kubota's only road is to help TE and hope they go away when they get what they want. But even if TE does not leave, being second in charge beats being a dead meat puppet.

Are we talking about the same Xykon that doesn't solve problems with fire only when he's solving them with lightnings?

The only thing that he could have done differently is that he could go alone on Azure City like Daenerys and his dragon on King's Landing, exterminate all the population with the help of some summoned creatures and undead, and go for the victory that way. Even the Order of the Stick doesn't stand a chance against Xykon and Redcloak and the Monster and Tsukiko, and they are the only high level character in town. The help of few paladins like O-Chul wouldn't be enough.

Then obviously there are the Ghost Martyrs, but neither Xykon or Redcloak could have known.

We are talking about the same Xykon who spent months playing with a paladin and accomplishing nothing else.

Frame it this way:
"I don't think you'd be able to restrict yourself to a murder or two a night, framing an entire order of paladins for it, and putting a figurehead on the throne so we could rule from the shadows. Let's just blow this place up and try the next one."

Xykon and Red cloak would not know about the Ghost Martyrs until Kubota runs screaming from the throne room. But then, to avoid a public confrontation with the SG, they won't be going there until Kubota sits on the throne.

Yeah, to boil it down to two concise points:

1: Taking and holding the gate without overwhelming force would require years, possibly decades, of infiltrating Azure City and altering its political structure and culture.

2: This is hypothetically doable, but not by Team Evil.

1: Weeks at most. Time works against you in these circumstances. You have to make your move and be done before anyone catches on. Longer = more risk, not less.

2: TE could do it. They could not do the long con Shojo is pulling, but a one or two months campaign that involves murder, framing innocents, and lying to virtually everyone?

"Dang, Wrong-Eye, oh, wait, you still have two. That was fun. Let's replay that level!"

First off, let me say that I *technically* agree with the literal point you are making (that you don't need to conquer the city with an army to take control of the gate). But I do think it's largely a distinction without a difference. The underlying point of that is that since Azure City is, well... a city, you have to take control of that city, and specifically the Throne Room of the City, for an extended period of time (weeks to do the ritual IIRC). You are correct that there are alternative ways to take control of a city, but IMO most if not all of them require a lot more work, a lot more time, and frankly a heck of a lot more luck than "conquer it with a large army". Anything less than "we just control it and no one else can say squat" gives them a secure period of time to do the ritual, and taking it via subterfuge is unlikely to actually give TE that level of control.

I'll address a couple of the sticking points I see.




Azure City is a social and political ecosystem. You're treating it like there are just a few factors and factions and nothing else matters. The majority of the citizens worship the 12 gods. There are a host of temples to said gods, with priests and whatnot, and folks attending services, etc. Even if we assume that somehow SG paladins could fall without anyone knowing, and we assume that the public can come to believe that the entire SG has been corrupted, has fallen, and is just pretending to still be paladins or something (pretty much the only way the whole "disband the SG" plan could work), there are a host of other clerics and diviners who could confirm or dispute that.

This entire bit basically requires the entire citizenry of Azure City to abandon their beliefs in their deities and trust in their priests just as a result of a smallish amount of political wrangling. That seems highly unlikely. And even if somehow you made the rank citizens believe this, the actual clerics of the various temples would not fall for it at all. There would be a vast majority of the actual powerful leveled people in the city who would know that Kuboto was involved in a coup, and was in league with some evil bad guys as well (and that they were trying to frame the SG for some reason). There's a point at which political politeness falls to "nope. We're just going to take this guy off the board now". And that would happen well before TE got anywhere near the throne room IMO.




Again. The entire priesthood of the 12 gods would know this. All of their seers would know that (and that Kuboto was the threat to the city, not Shojo). I think you are massively misreading just how much more powerful the side opposed to TE is in terms fo ability to influence public opinion. Not the least of which reason is that they actually do have the truth on their side, which is a big deal in a world where divination spells actually exist to determine what "the truth" is. Kuboto exists in a world where he can get away with a lot because there are conventions in place that afford his class (political, not character) protections from being questioned like a common criminal might. But if he oversteps, he will be subjected to greater scrutiny, at which point his true nature will come forth and he'll be done.



Why would the Ghost Martyrs attack Kuboto? In this scenario, he just thinks TE is helping him gain control of the city, right? I didn't see anywhere in your plan where he's actually in on the plan to take control of the gate, nor hand it over to TE to perform a ritual to threaten the gods. And frankly, if he did know this, he would never go along with the plan. He doesn't want to threaten the gods (he presuambly worships some of them). He just wants control of the city. So if he doesn't know this, then he's not actually a threat, and he wont be attacked. He's just a self serving noble who's gained political power.

So... Kubuto sits on the throne and is coronated without incident (well, ninja attacks are possible I suppose). How do we get from here to "TE takes the throne room for a few weeks to do the ritual?".

That's the second huge flaw in this plan. TE would have to be lying to Kuboto. Which means there would have to be a betrayal right at this point. Either by Kuboto to destroy TE, or TE to put Kuboto off to the side so they can do the ritual (and somehow not be noticed for several weeks while doing this). Once it become obvious to anyone that TE has taken the throne room, and is doing something nasty (which btw means that TE will be attacked by Soon and the Martyrs), the entire resources of every faction in the city will be rallied against TE. There is zero chance of TE holding the gateroom at that point.

As a side point to this, your plan also fails to recognize that Kuboto is already working for some devils. They might very well not at all be interested in TE actually completing their ritutal (there's still some question as to whether the IFCC was already using Quarr as an operative at this point or not). In any case though, Kuboto clearly does not have "help TE perform their ritutal" as part of his plans, so at some point TE will be attacked by more or less everyone in the city.




None of which should have worked in the first place. But even if they did, the moment Kuboto was betrayed (or betrayed TE and failed), the only thing keeping that subterfuge alive disappears. At that moment, all of these factions realize they've been tricked, and join as one to get rid of TE.

Misinformation only works until it's revealed as such. TE has to take control of the throne room and hold it for the ritutal for weeks. There's no way Kuboto or whatever faction represents the "lord of the City" allows them to do this. And sure, we could speculate some magical means employed to force Kuboto to allow them to do this, but it's hard to believe that any successful politician in this world doesn't have layers of magical means to prevent this very thing, maybe not in the very short term (like we saw with the dwarven council), but certainly in the long term. Aides that regularly cast magic on their bosses to make sure they aren't being controlled by someone else, rooms that block mental communication/control, or any of a number of other things. The point is that there's just no way to pull this off for weeks without lots of people figuring it out, and once that happens, all of those normally fighting and maneuvering political factions will all aliign in one direction: To wipe out TE and remove them from their throne room.

TE would not have a chance against that. Certainly they would not be able to complete the ritual once that happens.



No. It tricks that resistance into standing down because they think this is just normal political maneuvering and in-fighting. The moment those other factors realize that this isn't what's going on, and that the throne room is being controlled by a lich and a cleric of TDO? It's game over. The house of cards falls, and everyone joins against TE. There is no political promise or trickery that gets any of the Azure City factions to stand by while TE completes the ritual. None. Thus, even if they do succeed in every step up to that point, that's the point everything will fall apart.

Technical agreement is all I ask. Defending the exact plan I would use is the only way I've been able to get anyone past, "It's inconceivable!"

My point is not that this exact plan would work every time, but to create awareness that alternatives may exist. I'm sure there are posters already coming up with better plans.

I disagree that Azure City requires time for a political turnover. In fact, time plays in Shojo's favor. Like in football, if you get down to the goal and pass the ball around you are less likely to score than if you just drive, fake a corner shot, and drive it into the net. Sure, a good goalie will trap the ball, but that's the case anyway, no matter how long you pass from forward to forward trying for a fake-out, and the other team doesn't have time to steal.

Divinations are only as good as the guy asking the question. For example, Sangwaan didn't see the hobgoblin army coming, or even his own death. I think that overestimating the opposition has you reacting to threats which are not there. A handful of level 5-9 clerics do not pose the threat you claim in your post, and as I have said, they would be among the first to go. Witnesses would see a wizard in blue, or a SG knight, or find SG weaponry at the site, and whatever the establishment claimed could easily be cast into doubt.

Kubota will be among the first to learn how big a mistake he made in hiring TE, probably the first time someone gets imploded in front of him. Thereafter, his plan will be to remain alive. When TE does deliver him the throne as promised, he will gladly do whatever they want in hopes that they forget to kill him on the way out.

The minute everyone gangs up on TE they can drop the act and go full Xykon. I mean, yeah, he's going to do it anyway before he leaves because it will be fun, but literally the only real threat to TE in the whole city is Soon.

The idea is that by the time the misinformation is revealed it will be too late. Anyone from Azure City who could pose a threat to Kubota is dead.

They all team up against TE, and what? Run away? Or die? Taking them out is not a real option, and trying gets a lot of people killed.

[Precure]

Shojo is believed to be senile. They wouldn't they blame him for their lack of security. I also doubt Kubota would betray his country in such a way. He only actively began to work against the royal family after Hinjo's rejection of diplomacy and his insistence on keeping the secrets regarding the enemy and its motives.

[ecarden]

Slow subversion? I'm talking weeks. Far less time, in fact, than TE spent doing nothing in Gobbotopia.

Wow, that's a real fast slide into 'let's make Kubota lord.' But again, TE wasn't doing nothing. Redcloak was building a society and Xykon was torturing and murdering people.

Of course Kubota wants to betray TE. But he is the guy who sold his soul for literally nothing but a promise. If he sees TE advancing his cause, they are safe until he does not need them any more. Which, if TE is clever enough, will be the day after the ritual is complete.

Why would that possible be true, though? Like, I agree, if TE is so clever they can simply trick the entire city into doing whatever they want, they will win...but that's not actually something they're good at. Like, the last moment Kubota possibly needs anything from them is the moment he gains unfettered access to the throne room, after that, they're pure downside.

In a city where ninjas are routinely employed, security is tight? Well defended citys do not have ninjas.

I disagree. They accept ninja's as a cultural and military asset and accept the risks that go with them. They do not accept either goblins, or undead and would be prepared to keep them out.

And it is a good thing that Kubota knows the Sapphire Guard has a good seer/diviner.

Does he? His chief ninja certainly didn't.

That makes his first choice of a target very easy, and is a very good test of TE's ability. Sangwaan dead with a Sapphire Guard's blade in his back? Yes, that would make a great opening move.

I mean, it announces someone is targeting Lord Shojo and his allies and puts them personally on high alert.

More broadly, this all assumes that they know they need to target the throne room...which they don't.

The point remains valid: the GM literally gave them an army. Why would he be less generous in his setup if he had planned means other than an army for TE?

This is where you lose me entirely. Like, to the extent your argument is 'there are potential other means to reach Soon's gate' that is probably true. A sufficiently high level rogue, or some sort of new spell (which Xykon absolutely could create) might let him evade all those defenses and simply sneak in (this is also true of all the other gates). But the argument that goes 'the GM would give them support if they tried to do this some way besides smashing everything...' is just a fully universal argument for anything. If the GM/author wanted, Tarquin could have joined Elan, convinced his allies to come along and an entire epic adventuring party could have descended upon Xykon and Redcloak, defeating them without difficulty. Heck, if the GM/author wanted, they could just spontaneously drop dead. This doesn't prove anything.

Alternatively, it assumes the in-universe presence of a GM who TE are playing a game with, which just isn't true in the narrative as written.

[Errorname]

In a city where ninjas are routinely employed, security is tight? Well defended citys do not have ninjas.

In a city where Ninjas are a normalized fact of life, yeah, security is tight. Shojo took improved paranoia decades ago after all

The point remains valid: the GM literally gave them an army. Why would he be less generous in his setup if he had planned means other than an army for TE?

Because they didn't. That "if" is doing a lot of work there.

[Provengreil]

Shojo is believed to be senile. They wouldn't they blame him for their lack of security. I also doubt Kubota would betray his country in such a way. He only actively began to work against the royal family after Hinjo's rejection of diplomacy and his insistence on keeping the secrets regarding the enemy and its motives.

No, There's a reason not one person is objecting to Kubota turning traitor in this hypothetical. It's that Kubota is a slimy, traitorous bumhole looking for short-sighted opportunities to increase his own power relative to the rest of Azurite nobility. His willingness to immediately assassinate and/or abandon Hinjo didn't come from nowhere, that's just who he is. Therefore, he's a perfect insider to focus aid onto if your goal is to upset the social order within the city. The whole rejection of diplomacy thing is a cover, an excuse to weasel out with his house's troops intact while other houses take losses.

This is funny. I make a post, you claim I did not take personalities into account, so I do, and now you want to hold what I said about how I play D&D against me?

I say that because none of the predictions you make of people's actions match up with mine. in fact, I don't think there's a single post in this thread that agrees with your assumptions on how people will choose to act. You're assuming perfect pen-and-paper play, where weeks can be skipped with your character literally just "at home, hiding, and having no issues with bordeom" with no more difficulty than saying that. This is exactly the kind of situation that Xykon would lash out in, and while Kubota is definitely the right mindset for the job, I think you're overrating his abilities to pull it off on a ruling class that hasn't been destabilized by losing almost everything they had.

No, the ninjas stay out of it. Other than very minor fetchit roles, TE does the dirty work. Kubota is there for expert knowledge, creating disinformation, and providing a safe room for TE to plot and rest.

OK, first off, "A2 : Have a ninja in SG livery be seen killing the ally before trial. ("You'll never reveal our complicity, traitor!")" is you again. It's in the first post and one of the most active, hardest to pull off sells in your whole plan.

Second off, this kind of political assassination is why you have ninjas, it's literally what they do. It's happened at least twice on panel, once with Shojo and once in the Empire of Blood parade. Especially when buffed by Team Evil, they'll be less likely to be caught, a lot more deniable if they are, and even if they spill something, their capture isn't the end of the plan.

Lots of reasons Kubota doesn't betray TE, begining with, the moment Kubota sits on the throne Soon will be on his devil-worshipping backside like a cat on a feather.

So you've claimed, but failed to answer why that would happen. There's no reason to believe Soon would attack Kubota since Kubota doesn't know about, or visibly threaten, the gate. Revealing himself only increases the danger to the gate as now he becomes a problem to be exorcised. It's one of the brilliant subtleties of the location, even a coup that eliminates all knowledge of the gate won't end most of its local protections. You're just code switching again between people as characters (Kubota gets a throne room coronation) with people as chess pieces (Soon uses Xykon's knowledge of Kobota's motives to determine a course of action).

Ending with, by the time Kubota realizes what he's dealing with, he will realize that betrayal will get him turned into a corpse puppet. Kubota's only road is to help TE and hope they go away when they get what they want. But even if TE does not leave, being second in charge beats being a dead meat puppet.

Nah. Kubota would hold himself hostage to Xykon: if he made any of the deals to begin with it means he thinks Xykon can be reasoned with, or at least controlled by allowing access to the objective. By the time it gets that far, Xykon's only way out of fighting the entire remaining city guard while performing the ritual is Kubota's control. It's kind of like how he surrendered to Elan with immediate plans to squirm out of it at trial. Of course, Xykon probably does in fact kill him at this point, but then the overall scenario comes to a failure.

[Doctor West]

The point remains valid: the GM literally gave them an army. Why would he be less generous in his setup if he had planned means other than an army for TE?

I don't want to engage too deeply with this debate, to be honest, but if someone doesn't point this out (again) I'm going to go insane.
There is no DM controlling the world of Order of the Stick. The story is not a literal Dungeons & Dragons campaign. And even if it was, Team Evil wouldn't be the PCs. Assigning a benevolent will to the serendipity Xykon and Redcloak experienced and assuming they would see similar good fortune in different circumstances is not strengthening your point.

[Mechalich]

First off, let me say that I *technically* agree with the literal point you are making (that you don't need to conquer the city with an army to take control of the gate). But I do think it's largely a distinction without a difference. The underlying point of that is that since Azure City is, well... a city, you have to take control of that city, and specifically the Throne Room of the City, for an extended period of time (weeks to do the ritual IIRC). You are correct that there are alternative ways to take control of a city, but IMO most if not all of them require a lot more work, a lot more time, and frankly a heck of a lot more luck than "conquer it with a large army". Anything less than "we just control it and no one else can say squat" gives them a secure period of time to do the ritual, and taking it via subterfuge is unlikely to actually give TE that level of control.

There is the alternate option to just straight up murder everyone. Azure City's 99% is completely unable to do anything but run around and die in the face of something as modest as a handful of Wraiths, which Redcloak can fairly easily produce. So long as they kill the various mid and high-level defenders during an initial assault - which is what they actually do during the battle in question anyway - the rest is just mop up. It might take longer to facilitate without an army of Hobgoblins, but not immensely longer, maybe a week instead of a day.

[Provengreil]

There is the alternate option to just straight up murder everyone. Azure City's 99% is completely unable to do anything but run around and die in the face of something as modest as a handful of Wraiths, which Redcloak can fairly easily produce. So long as they kill the various mid and high-level defenders during an initial assault - which is what they actually do during the battle in question anyway - the rest is just mop up. It might take longer to facilitate without an army of Hobgoblins, but not immensely longer, maybe a week instead of a day.

But that would stand in defiance of the main point, that you don't need an army to get enough alone time in the throne room to do the ritual. Using Xykon as a one man army still counts or it would have been Brian's first option, and at the end you get what he's trying to avoid, a city held in check by a sizeable evil force.

[Errorname]

Another potential failure point is that assuming your coup goes off without a hitch and you get access to the throne room, if there are any surviving Sapphire Guardsmen we know their doctrine is to destroy the gate rather than let it be captured

Like if Xykon and Redcloak had somehow managed to defeat the epic level paladin ghost and stop Miko from destroying the gate, first order of business for the Azure City resistance that springs up would have been destroying the gate before they could complete their ritual.

But that would stand in defiance of the main point, that you don't need an army to get enough alone time in the throne room to do the ritual. Using Xykon as a one man army still counts or it would have been Brian's first option, and at the end you get what he's trying to avoid, a city held in check by a sizeable evil force.

This argument started as "Soon's gate is better defended because it forces threats to engage on the level of armies and cities rather than a simple dungeon dive" so holding the gate with a small party of very high level characters isn't really using an army in the way it was meant, but if you're high level enough to roll over an entire city and secure the throne room and complete the ritual you're probably tough enough to roll over the other gates.

[brian 333]

Shojo is believed to be senile. They wouldn't they blame him for their lack of security. I also doubt Kubota would betray his country in such a way. He only actively began to work against the royal family after Hinjo's rejection of diplomacy and his insistence on keeping the secrets regarding the enemy and its motives.

Kubota has wanted to replace Shojo ever since. He even sold his soul for power. He took the first opportunity that presented itself to make his move in comic, and even in failure he was confident he could sway the nobles in his favor. Why are you so certain he would not see TE as an opportunity he can use, and turn against if things start to go south?

Wow, that's a real fast slide into 'let's make Kubota lord.' But again, TE wasn't doing nothing. Redcloak was building a society and Xykon was torturing and murdering people.



Why would that possible be true, though? Like, I agree, if TE is so clever they can simply trick the entire city into doing whatever they want, they will win...but that's not actually something they're good at. Like, the last moment Kubota possibly needs anything from them is the moment he gains unfettered access to the throne room, after that, they're pure downside.



I disagree. They accept ninja's as a cultural and military asset and accept the risks that go with them. They do not accept either goblins, or undead and would be prepared to keep them out.



Does he? His chief ninja certainly didn't.



I mean, it announces someone is targeting Lord Shojo and his allies and puts them personally on high alert.

More broadly, this all assumes that they know they need to target the throne room...which they don't.



This is where you lose me entirely. Like, to the extent your argument is 'there are potential other means to reach Soon's gate' that is probably true. A sufficiently high level rogue, or some sort of new spell (which Xykon absolutely could create) might let him evade all those defenses and simply sneak in (this is also true of all the other gates). But the argument that goes 'the GM would give them support if they tried to do this some way besides smashing everything...' is just a fully universal argument for anything. If the GM/author wanted, Tarquin could have joined Elan, convinced his allies to come along and an entire epic adventuring party could have descended upon Xykon and Redcloak, defeating them without difficulty. Heck, if the GM/author wanted, they could just spontaneously drop dead. This doesn't prove anything.

Alternatively, it assumes the in-universe presence of a GM who TE are playing a game with, which just isn't true in the narrative as written.

Yes, a fast slide. But Medieval politics works like that. When there is blood in the water, the sharks attack. In this case, you want to move fast because the longer this drags out, the more opportunities the other side has to discover what you are doing and work against it. Ideally, the opposition doesn't realize Kubota is the enemy until he is voted in as lord by the nobility.

And yes, Kubota will want to be rid of TE as soon as possible once he has what he wants. How does he do that? I doubt his entire ninja army could do more than tickle MitD, and he really does not want to tick off Xykon. Best to give them what they want and hope they go away.

Since Kubota would want to be eliminating rivals, the targets will come from across the spectrum of nobles. He has wealth and power, but he's a jerk. This just helps in the subterfuge that the SG are out to remove the nobility from power and usurp control of the city.

Having never been to Azure City, the first place Xykon went in comic was to the throne room. How can you insist that he would not know he should go there? Be that as it may, until the Sapphire Guard is exiled TE won't go to the throne room because they do not want to be unmasked.

The remark about the GM giving TE an army is legitimate. The army just happened to be there for reasons. So, if TE's goal is to play dirty politics, why would this same generosity not result in a slightly more competent Kubota, or manifest in some other way that renders timely support?

I am well aware that in comic there are no players or DM. But we are wargaming a scenario, not writing an online comic. If from time to time I refer to The Author as DM, it is because as creator of the scenario he dictated what resources the NPCs had, and he dictated the reactions and responses of the other NPCs and PCs.

The Author is the DM. (And everyone else in the comic.)

In a city where Ninjas are a normalized fact of life, yeah, security is tight. Shojo took improved paranoia decades ago after all



Because they didn't. That "if" is doing a lot of work there.

Tight security means lots of dead ninjas. Where are the dead ninjas? There is room to maneuver. Having an insider show you where it is, and how to avoid the choke points, helps.

That 'if' is the entire premise of this thread. If TE had no army, I say there could be alternate means to accomplish their goal in Azure City. This is opposed, not to what happened in comic, but to the assertion by several posters that the only way to achieve TE's objective at Soon's Gate is to have an army.

I say that because none of the predictions you make of people's actions match up with mine. in fact, I don't think there's a single post in this thread that agrees with your assumptions on how people will choose to act. You're assuming perfect pen-and-paper play, where weeks can be skipped with your character literally just "at home, hiding, and having no issues with bordeom" with no more difficulty than saying that. This is exactly the kind of situation that Xykon would lash out in, and while Kubota is definitely the right mindset for the job, I think you're overrating his abilities to pull it off on a ruling class that hasn't been destabilized by losing almost everything they had.

OK, first off, "A2 : Have a ninja in SG livery be seen killing the ally before trial. ("You'll never reveal our complicity, traitor!")" is you again. It's in the first post and one of the most active, hardest to pull off sells in your whole plan.

Second off, this kind of political assassination is why you have ninjas, it's literally what they do. It's happened at least twice on panel, once with Shojo and once in the Empire of Blood parade. Especially when buffed by Team Evil, they'll be less likely to be caught, a lot more deniable if they are, and even if they spill something, their capture isn't the end of the plan.

So you've claimed, but failed to answer why that would happen. There's no reason to believe Soon would attack Kubota since Kubota doesn't know about, or visibly threaten, the gate. Revealing himself only increases the danger to the gate as now he becomes a problem to be exorcised. It's one of the brilliant subtleties of the location, even a coup that eliminates all knowledge of the gate won't end most of its local protections. You're just code switching again between people as characters (Kubota gets a throne room coronation) with people as chess pieces (Soon uses Xykon's knowledge of Kobota's motives to determine a course of action).

Nah. Kubota would hold himself hostage to Xykon: if he made any of the deals to begin with it means he thinks Xykon can be reasoned with, or at least controlled by allowing access to the objective. By the time it gets that far, Xykon's only way out of fighting the entire remaining city guard while performing the ritual is Kubota's control. It's kind of like how he surrendered to Elan with immediate plans to squirm out of it at trial. Of course, Xykon probably does in fact kill him at this point, but then the overall scenario comes to a failure.

I'm not skipping weeks. I don't anticipate my campaign lasting a whole month. With a hefty percentage of the most powerful nobles dead and Kubota publicly worrying that he is next, the nobility will want immediate results. They will want someone to blame. They will blame the person who is supposed to protect them if the idea is properly seeded, and since poor Shojo is known to be crazy, they will blame the ones they think are his puppet masters. (Hint: not Mr. Scruffy!)

A2 is a hard sell? A blue robed guy stabs a noble while the chambermaid shrieks, sounding the alarm, then the blue guy runs away leaving an authentic SG weapon in the dead nobleman.

The first thing people say is, "It's a setup!" No. A2 is extremely easy to pull off. The messaging is the hard part, where SG denials are used to show they are guilty.

Kubota is an Evil devil worshipper. If this does not trigger Soon, then the minute Xykon approaches the throne, even in disguise, it is game on. The results, as we saw in comic, were not great for the Ghost Martyrs, and if TE is smart enough to withdraw from the throne room they have time to figure out how to destroy or banish Soon. After all, they have one of the world's foremost experts on undead on the team and highly motivated to win.

I presume failure before the end because The Order of the Stick will somehow screw things up. But, without Darth V to do it, Xykon disintegrating Kubota would be a nice ending to their friendship.

As far as fighting the entire city guard: what can they really do to TE? They either died by the hands of or surrendered to hobgoblins in the comic. They are not powerful enough to do more than annoy Xykon. So, not a threat.

I don't want to engage too deeply with this debate, to be honest, but if someone doesn't point this out (again) I'm going to go insane.
There is no DM controlling the world of Order of the Stick. The story is not a literal Dungeons & Dragons campaign. And even if it was, Team Evil wouldn't be the PCs. Assigning a benevolent will to the serendipity Xykon and Redcloak experienced and assuming they would see similar good fortune in different circumstances is not strengthening your point.

Your sanity is not at issue here. I did not previously reply directly to your last post because this has been addressed previously. Let me try again:

I am not trying to rewrite The Giant's story, nor am I trying to tell him how it should have been done.

This thread is not about the story. It is about the assertions by some that a strength of Soon's gate is that it requires an army to take and hold it long enough to complete the ritual.

This thread is about wargaming a scenario which does not require that TE command or control an army. It has a solutely nothing else to do with the comic but to use a particular time, (TE exiting the cave after their retreat from Dorukon's,) and the setting at that time except that no hobgoblin army exists for TE to use.

For the record, I know there are no players controlling the PCs in comic, and I am aware that in comic there is no DM controlling the NPCs and the setting.

But we are not in comic. Someone designed the setting put the NPCs in place, gave them characteristics and motivations. And since I have yet to involve any PCs in my little wargame scenario I have yet to invoke any players.

But the scenario builder is the DM. Rich Berlew build the setting, so he might default to DM for the purposes of this discussion, but it is not necessary to have a real person as DM. When I use that title I am simply referring to a generic abstract builder and administrator, nothing more.

[JNAProductions]

Kubota has wanted to replace Shojo ever since. He even sold his soul for power. He took the first opportunity that presented itself to make his move in comic, and even in failure he was confident he could sway the nobles in his favor. Why are you so certain he would not see TE as an opportunity he can use, and turn against if things start to go south?

Because he's dealing with a very chaotic and unhinged lich.
Not someone who's likely to follow the terms of a deal.

And even if he DOES sign on with Team Evil... See the bold bit. Kubota is in it for one person-Kubota. Not The Dark One, not Redcloak, not Xykon.

[Gurgeh]

Kubota has wanted to replace Shojo ever since. He even sold his soul for power. He took the first opportunity that presented itself to make his move in comic, and even in failure he was confident he could sway the nobles in his favor. Why are you so certain he would not see TE as an opportunity he can use, and turn against if things start to go south?

Point of order: he didn't. Kubota may well have been willing to sell his soul (it's unclear whether Qarr was acting on Kubota's instructions or his own initiative), but the lower-downs didn't think it was worthwhile.

[Errorname]

Because he's dealing with a very chaotic and unhinged lich.
Not someone who's likely to follow the terms of a deal.

Eh, Kubota's the right combination of stupid and arrogant to try, but the same flaws that mean recruiting him is possible mean he's far from an ideal recruit.

Genuinely he would be more useful if they killed him and weekend at bernie'd his undead body.

[ecarden]

Having never been to Azure City, the first place Xykon went in comic was to the throne room. How can you insist that he would not know he should go there? Be that as it may, until the Sapphire Guard is exiled TE won't go to the throne room because they do not want to be unmasked.

In canon he knows because he gets lucky and overhears it while scrying on Miko, where it's only being discussed because she literally just missed cutting it in half (see 415). Given there's no reason for any of that to happen in this model of events and he has no idea where the gate even is, this entire plot to gain access to the throne room is...irrelevant?

The remark about the GM giving TE an army is legitimate. The army just happened to be there for reasons. So, if TE's goal is to play dirty politics, why would this same generosity not result in a slightly more competent Kubota, or manifest in some other way that renders timely support?

Because what the author might have done differently is irrelevant to the question of what is possible in the universe as written.

I am well aware that in comic there are no players or DM. But we are wargaming a scenario, not writing an online comic. If from time to time I refer to The Author as DM, it is because as creator of the scenario he dictated what resources the NPCs had, and he dictated the reactions and responses of the other NPCs and PCs.

Right, he created this scenario. You keep trying to change it and say that if TE had done something differently, then the author would have written different characters and different reactions than those predictable from canon. Which is simply an unfalsifiable argument to have, which is what I find frustrating about this conversation. You keep sliding between 'this is what TE could have done without the army to still win' and 'these are the changes that the author could make to allow TE to win without an army' and those are two entirely different and indeed, mutually contradictory (if they could win without them, the author doesn't need to make changes for their victory to be believable) arguments.

The question I find interesting is, what would/could the Kubota of canon do? And the answer seems to me to be that he doesn't work with people he's not confident he controls/can kill at will and he's arrogant and not nearly as clever as he thinks. Him and TE is a story that ends rapidly with him dead, but not before he blows their cover, to the extent they can even have one.

[brian 333]

Because he's dealing with a very chaotic and unhinged lich.
Not someone who's likely to follow the terms of a deal.

And even if he DOES sign on with Team Evil... See the bold bit. Kubota is in it for one person-Kubota. Not The Dark One, not Redcloak, not Xykon.

Agreed. But it is an opportunity. At first he does not know how dangerous TE can be, but as time goes on he realizes their failure might result in worse than his own death. He's in it for himself. He wants to not become a meat puppet.

Point of order: he didn't. Kubota may well have been willing to sell his soul (it's unclear whether Qarr was acting on Kubota's instructions or his own initiative), but the lower-downs didn't think it was worthwhile.

My misunderstanding. I thought the IFCC rejected him because he had already hocked his soul.

Eh, Kubota's the right combination of stupid and arrogant to try, but the same flaws that mean recruiting him is possible mean he's far from an ideal recruit.

Genuinely he would be more useful if they killed him and weekend at bernie'd his undead body.

There's an idea. Wight? Or plain old zombie?

In canon he knows because he gets lucky and overhears it while scrying on Miko, where it's only being discussed because she literally just missed cutting it in half (see 415). Given there's no reason for any of that to happen in this model of events and he has no idea where the gate even is, this entire plot to gain access to the throne room is...irrelevant?



Because what the author might have done differently is irrelevant to the question of what is possible in the universe as written.



Right, he created this scenario. You keep trying to change it and say that if TE had done something differently, then the author would have written different characters and different reactions than those predictable from canon. Which is simply an unfalsifiable argument to have, which is what I find frustrating about this conversation. You keep sliding between 'this is what TE could have done without the army to still win' and 'these are the changes that the author could make to allow TE to win without an army' and those are two entirely different and indeed, mutually contradictory (if they could win without them, the author doesn't need to make changes for their victory to be believable) arguments.

The question I find interesting is, what would/could the Kubota of canon do? And the answer seems to me to be that he doesn't work with people he's not confident he controls/can kill at will and he's arrogant and not nearly as clever as he thinks. Him and TE is a story that ends rapidly with him dead, but not before he blows their cover, to the extent they can even have one.

But they are not necessarily trying to get to the throne room. TE's trying to get to the coordinates of the gate from Serini's diary. In fact, nowhere in my outline do I mention TE going to the throne room until Kubota is sitting on the throne. By that time they should have figured out where the gate is located, either from interrogating a dead paladins or by some other means.

Again, this is not about what the author might have done differently. This is about the assertion, when ranking the defenses of the gates, that a major strength of Soon's Gate is that it requires an army to take and hold it. I happen to like the story as told by The Giant.

I am not saying that the author would have written different characters. I am saying that the author gave TE, unearned by anything they did, the means to succeed. He did so for story reasons. If he had intended there be no army, should his intention that they have the means to win be diminished? You are saying that the only piece that I am allowed to move is the army, in my scenario. Okay, fair enough. Where does my outline rely on anything not seen in comic?

I suggested that the DM's generosity should carry over in the new scenario, and proposed ways this might manifest, but I have not used any of those ideas in formulating my plan.

Your summary of Kubota's interaction with TE is logical. I leaned more on, "He isn't as smart as he thinks he is, and he is arrogant enough to think he can control TE."

I picked Kubota as a likely candidate for TE to use precisely because of that. To a lesser extent, he is a known factor and I did not wish to invent a new noble for TE's convenience. But I can accept that Kubota is a weak link which will require monitoring through the whole operation. And he is probably why the plan ultimately fails after OotS starts to shake things up.

[Errorname]

There's an idea. Wight? Or plain old zombie?

Depends on what the necromancer is capable of, but lifelike would be more important than combat efficiency. You could cover up some stuff with illusions, but that gets increasingly difficult the more decayed it becomes. It'd also might be a pretty hard sell against a city of Paladins

[Unoriginal]

No matter what the plan is, Team Evil cannot succeed at securing Soon's Gate unless they can stop Soon from destroying the Gate.

Even if the whole of Azure City citizens and nobles turned fully in support of Team Evil, even if the whole Sapphire Guard broke their oaths and personally gave piggy-back rides to Xykon and Redcloack directly into the throne room, there is nothing that could stop Soon Kim from standing in their way.

Could Soon beat them in such a scenario? Likely not.

Could Soon drive his ghostly sword through the throne crystal and prevent Team Evil from getting access to a functional Gate before Team Evil could stop him? Absolutely.

The only way Team Evil could prevent that would be if they know Soon himself will appear and find a way to imprison or paralyse his ghostly self (or make the throne impossible for the Paladin to reach) WITHOUT Soon being aware they have an anti-him measure. And given Soon knew that Xykon's phylactery was Redcloack's unholy symbol, it seems unlikely that Team Evil could keep their anti-Soon plan a secret from his afterlife insight.

So yeah, I don't think there is anything Team Evil could do to prevent Soon from destroying the Gate if he sees the other options are no longer available.

I am saying that the author gave TE, unearned by anything they did, the means to succeed

But they did earn the means they had, and they did not have the means to succeed.

They have earned their power, then gamed the "might makes ruler" system of a group to get even more power. But they still did not succeed at getting the Gate.

[Greil9]

Could Soon beat them in such a scenario? Likely not.

Could Soon drive his ghostly sword through the throne crystal and prevent Team Evil from getting access to a functional Gate before Team Evil could stop him? Absolutely.

While I'm not going to be part of the larger conversation, this one part I need to point out: Soon likely could not smash the sapphire. As we saw in comic 462, Soon could not smash Xykon's phylactery due to him being a spirit and not flesh and blood. Therefore it stands to reason that he also could not smash the sapphire on the throne either as that too is a physical object. Yes it is magical, but by all rights so is a phylactery.

Then again in said scenario, Soon and his spirit army did beat both Redcloak and Xykon. So they would need some backup for this time to be any different.

[brian 333]

No matter what the plan is, Team Evil cannot succeed at securing Soon's Gate unless they can stop Soon from destroying the Gate.

Even if the whole of Azure City citizens and nobles turned fully in support of Team Evil, even if the whole Sapphire Guard broke their oaths and personally gave piggy-back rides to Xykon and Redcloack directly into the throne room, there is nothing that could stop Soon Kim from standing in their way.

Could Soon beat them in such a scenario? Likely not.

Could Soon drive his ghostly sword through the throne crystal and prevent Team Evil from getting access to a functional Gate before Team Evil could stop him? Absolutely.

The only way Team Evil could prevent that would be if they know Soon himself will appear and find a way to imprison or paralyse his ghostly self (or make the throne impossible for the Paladin to reach) WITHOUT Soon being aware they have an anti-him measure. And given Soon knew that Xykon's phylactery was Redcloack's unholy symbol, it seems unlikely that Team Evil could keep their anti-Soon plan a secret from his afterlife insight.

So yeah, I don't think there is anything Team Evil could do to prevent Soon from destroying the Gate if he sees the other options are no longer available.



But they did earn the means they had, and they did not have the means to succeed.

They have earned their power, then gamed the "might makes ruler" system of a group to get even more power. But they still did not succeed at getting the Gate.

They did not recruit the army.

They did not train the army.

They did not equip the army.

They did not motivate the army.

Redcloak one-shot killed one guy and was crowned Supreme Leader.

That is not earning the army, that's a gift from the DM.

While I'm not going to be part of the larger conversation, this one part I need to point out: Soon likely could not smash the sapphire. As we saw in comic 462, Soon could not smash Xykon's phylactery due to him being a spirit and not flesh and blood. Therefore it stands to reason that he also could not smash the sapphire on the throne either as that too is a physical object. Yes it is magical, but by all rights so is a phylactery.

Then again in said scenario, Soon and his spirit army did beat both Redcloak and Xykon. So they would need some backup for this time to be any different.

Agreed.

I would suggest that (perhaps multiple) retreats from the Throne Room will be required as they learn and regroup. I wonder if there is still room in the soul gem?

[Unoriginal]

While I'm not going to be part of the larger conversation, this one part I need to point out: Soon likely could not smash the sapphire. As we saw in comic 462, Soon could not smash Xykon's phylactery due to him being a spirit and not flesh and blood. Therefore it stands to reason that he also could not smash the sapphire on the throne either as that too is a physical object. Yes it is magical, but by all rights so is a phylactery.

Then again in said scenario, Soon and his spirit army did beat both Redcloak and Xykon. So they would need some backup for this time to be any different.

I read it as "Soon could not smash Xykon's phylactery due to the phylactery being reinforced with so many spells and the like".

While the throne sapphire is magical, it was also fragile enough to be destroyed by a non-magical, non-augmented sword slash (at least, I don't think it was ever mentioned or implied to be a magic weapon). Both O-Chul and Miko were confident in their capacity to shatter it, too. Meanwhile, O-Chul was unable to even lightly scratch the phylactery even with an evil-destroying Smite, when such an attack was able to one-shot Jirix and seriously hurt Redcloack.

I admit it's not the only possible reading, but to me it seems more like soon was saying "I may not be able to destroy the phylactery because it's too tough for my means, but I can guard it until someone who can do all the extensive process required to destroy it show up" rather than "I may nt be able to destroy the phylactery because I can't affect physical objects, but I can guard it until a living being shows up and destroy it since they have a physical body."

Especially since we've seen that O-Chul would not have been able to destroy it even if Xykon's spell had worn off and he was free to act.

Redcloak one-shot killed one guy and was crowned Supreme Leader.

That is not earning the army, that's a gift from the DM.

So according to you, if a PC adventure until they're lvl 16, then defeat a weaker opponent in order to obtain the magical axe that opponent was wielding, they did not earn the magical axe and it was just gifted by the DM?

[Metastachydium]

Redcloak one-shot killed one guy and was crowned Supreme Leader.

That is not earning the army, that's a gift from the DM.

So according to you, if a PC adventure until they're lvl 16, then defeat a weaker opponent in order to obtain the magical axe that opponent was wielding, they did not earn the magical axe and it was just gifted by the DM?

Yup. Redcloak was made Supreme Leader because the current Supreme Leader realised he can casually one-shot their entire leadership. (Also, is loot a gift from the DM and you have to personally craft your own magic items (eat excrement, non-casters, of course!) or what, now?)

♣

Separately:
a. The Guard's existence is not common knowledge;
b. nor are all of them Paladins (as per the Word of the Giant, all have Paladin or Cleric levels) and nor are all Paladins in Azure City neccessarily of the Guard.
c. Further, they are not a formal part of the Azurite armed forces or law enforcement;
d. they respond only to the Lord and their gods.

Much of that alternate timeline of yours, Brian, hinges on the ability of Kubota to just disestablish the Guard. But
–does he even know they exist?
–If he does, do those who'd need to believe they are involved in some plot do?
–Would Shojo just transfer his command of them to Kubota after a coup? Why?
–Would the Paladins willingly accept an Evil guy that rose to the throne through a coup as their leader? Why?
–How would the City even get rid of them?
>—Exile everyone with a blue cape? Not all of them wear those, and freaking everyone not already working for Kubota wears blue.
>—Exile all Paladins and Clerics? Under what pretext?

There's no getting rid of the Guard as you described.

[gbaji]

There is the alternate option to just straight up murder everyone. Azure City's 99% is completely unable to do anything but run around and die in the face of something as modest as a handful of Wraiths, which Redcloak can fairly easily produce. So long as they kill the various mid and high-level defenders during an initial assault - which is what they actually do during the battle in question anyway - the rest is just mop up. It might take longer to facilitate without an army of Hobgoblins, but not immensely longer, maybe a week instead of a day.

It's not just that it'll take longer without an army, the direct approach will simply fail without one. Remember, we're still operating under D&D rules. TE is (mostly) made up of two spell casters (and MitD, so there's that). Very powerful for the first, say 5 minutes or so of fighting folks. Then, once the spells run out, they're more or less slightly tougher than normal melee combatants, and there are still somewhere on the order of 8,000+ soldiers attacking them. Without an army to wipe out all of the soldiers defending the city, TE simply cannot take and hold the throne room by force. Even if the vast majority of the city's defenders are lowish level fighter types, they are still bodies that have to be physically stopped. And they provide cover for what is likely several hundred people in the city who are high enough level to harm TE (especially if TE has already expended most of their magic already).

If we assume that somehow TE does learn the location of the gate and just makes a beeline there and attacks directly, they could certainly take the throne room (just like Xykon did), but then they will fail (either killed directly by Soon and the Martyrs, or over more time as defenders arrive in wave after wave for hours and hours until they die or retreat). Any subterfuge they use will work right up until whomever they are working with (say Kuboto) figures out that they have plans for the throne room that don't involve him sitting there, and the same entire power of the city goes after them, and they fail (just as above)

Basically, any plan that doesn't wipe out 99% or so of the city's soldiers and nobles and the SG just doesn't work. My mention earlier that Brian's poinnt is "technically correct", is not because I think there's a means to do this via subterfuge, but that there are presumably alternative means to wipe out a city's population and defenders other than just an army.

This argument started as "Soon's gate is better defended because it forces threats to engage on the level of armies and cities rather than a simple dungeon dive" so holding the gate with a small party of very high level characters isn't really using an army in the way it was meant, but if you're high level enough to roll over an entire city and secure the throne room and complete the ritual you're probably tough enough to roll over the other gates.

Yeah. More or less the point. It's about which is more difficult. And yeah, I still maintain that taking and holding the throne room in Azure city was by far more difficult than taking and holding any of the other gates locations. As several people have pointed out, the throne room itself had defenders that were as tough (arguably tougher against TE and Xykon specifically) than those we know of anywhere else. And that's on top of the whole "it's in the middle of a fortified and well defended city full of people who will come after someone camping out in their throne room".

There's some question as to what was binding the Martyrs in the room too. It's quite possible that they simply could not be removed without destroying the gate itself (they were tied to the gem). Maybe Redcloak could figure out some way to santify (in an entirely evil way) the room and drive them away. Maybe. But could he do this before hordes of paladins descended on the room? Probably not. And every single paladin they kill in the room will then rise again as another martyr. Even if we assume the rest of the city sits around for a while paralyzed at the sudden attack on the throne room, the paladins will not, creating an almost impossible and re-occuring attack force, that they can't actually kill (maybe banish for a while), and over time more and more forces will be mobilized and sent to attack.

I'd be shocked if TE manages to hold the throne room for a day or two. Probably less than an hour (but if they do hold it that long, it'll take longer to get rid of them).

And, that's barring more extreme measures (like collapsing the tower). They also do have a fully operational city, with all of the resources that entails. Explosives. Fire. Seige weapons. Oh... and ninjas! Lots and lots of stuff. There's a scaling problem here. D&D scales characters to small scale conflicts. They just don't work large scale. Not even powerful spell casters. Fireball is great, but that kills maybe 30 or so mooks? Great. There's 8,970 more to kill. You will literally run out of spells before they run out of soldiers. It's the same point that was made to Haley before the battle. Sheer numbers of forces makes high levels and HPs meaningless. And again, the city does still have a boatload of clerics, and even mid level folks can effectively do things like dispell magic (maybe not hit the highest level spells, but that'll get some stuff). And that's assuming they don't have some interesting magic items and artifacts lying about in the hands of various nobles and people of note. And while the nobles certainly fought against each other for position and power, if there's one thing that would have rallied them all, it would be a smallish group of evil folks sitting in the throne room of the city they're all fighting to control. The reason many of the nobles fled was not because of TE, but because of the army. Take the army away, and leave just three bad guys, and every one of them will join in the effort to recover the throne (and possibly do so for themselves if they can manage it, but TE will not be left when they are done).


Yeah. Just not seeing it at all. I do agree that you could technically take the city without using an army, but whatever alternative you use pretty much has to result in the same thing: Wiping out the city's defenders and leaving you with full control of the city afterwards. So if you don't use an army, you have to use something with similar capabilities (hence a distinction without a difference). None of the other gates require this. The closest were Lirian and Girard's gates, and they had nowhere near the sheer numbers and defense options that Azure City had.

[Unoriginal]

None of the other gates require this. The closest were Lirian and Girard's gates, and they had nowhere near the sheer numbers and defense options that Azure City had.

Xykon still needed/wanted an army to besiege and then occupy the Dungeon of Dorukan.

[ZhonLord]

Whether an army was required or not, the fact is Redcloak and Xykon as they were prior to the assault wouldn't have considered any other alternative.

Redcloak had a hard enough time keeping Xykon focused on the goal, he wouldn't have wanted to add more cats to keep on the same ball of yarn. He even had great difficulty accepting the hobgoblins that Xykon foisted on him, and THEIR militant loyalty was absolute. Redcloak as he is now will preserve goblin lives whenever possible (except for the obvious Armageddon issue), but most of that growth came during and after the city assault.

As for Xykon: running a con is one thing. Running a multi-year coup? HA! his boredom is so all-encompassing that he kept almost killing O-Chul to get some kind of amusement while waiting for the paladin to confess the next gate's secrets. Xykon can be patient for hours and days, not months and years.

[brian 333]

So according to you, if a PC adventure until they're lvl 16, then defeat a weaker opponent in order to obtain the magical axe that opponent was wielding, they did not earn the magical axe and it was just gifted by the DM?

Depends on two things:
How easy was the fight?
How good is the axe?

Your level 16 guy kills a level 8 monster for a +1 axe, it is just loot.
Your level 16 guy kills a level 8 for a +5 Flaming Vorpal Axe of Outsider Banishing, then yeah, DM gift

There is nothing wrong with DMs giving the party the means to accomplish the mission. After all, the idea is to use it and actually accomplish the mission.

My point is that the DM gave the team what they needed to succeed then let them use it how they felt it would serve best. Why, if the DM decided to have it play out as a political game instead of a military assault, would that same generosity not be manifested in some other way?

Yup. Redcloak was made Supreme Leader because the current Supreme Leader realised he can casually one-shot their entire leadership. (Also, is loot a gift from the DM and you have to personally craft your own magic items (eat excrement, non-casters, of course!) or what, now?)

♣

Separately:
a. The Guard's existence is not common knowledge;
b. nor are all of them Paladins (as per the Word of the Giant, all have Paladin or Cleric levels) and nor are all Paladins in Azure City neccessarily of the Guard.
c. Further, they are not a formal part of the Azurite armed forces or law enforcement;
d. they respond only to the Lord and their gods.

Much of that alternate timeline of yours, Brian, hinges on the ability of Kubota to just disestablish the Guard. But
–does he even know they exist?
–If he does, do those who'd need to believe they are involved in some plot do?
–Would Shojo just transfer his command of them to Kubota after a coup? Why?
–Would the Paladins willingly accept an Evil guy that rose to the throne through a coup as their leader? Why?
–How would the City even get rid of them?
>—Exile everyone with a blue cape? Not all of them wear those, and freaking everyone not already working for Kubota wears blue.
>—Exile all Paladins and Clerics? Under what pretext?

There's no getting rid of the Guard as you described.

The Sapphire Guard does not belong to Shojo. They serve the Lord of Azure City. Whoever holds the title is their lawful leader. When Kubota is installed by the nobility the membership has two options:
Resign
Obey Kubota

As for the organization being secret, sure. But in a city where nobles have a retinue of armed folk, the Sapphire Guard would be seen as Shojo's retinue if their status as an independent order is hidden even from the nobility. Remove Shojo and they have no excuse to remain in the Throne Room. And if they are accused of trying to usurp the authority of their leige, banishment would be viewed as a lenient punishment.

Since they have no official position in either law enforcement or the military, their authority is exactly what the Lord of the city decides it is. Whether cleric or paladin, they serve Kubota. Ouch.

The Sapphire Guard remaining after Kubota peacefully, (to all appearances anyway,) assumes his place as the rightful lord of Azure City is the implausible outcome. You rightfully say they would not wish to serve Kubota. So, what do they do? Armed insurrection against their rightfully appointed lord?

It's not just that it'll take longer without an army, the direct approach will simply fail without one. Remember, we're still operating under D&D rules. TE is (mostly) made up of two spell casters (and MitD, so there's that). Very powerful for the first, say 5 minutes or so of fighting folks. Then, once the spells run out, they're more or less slightly tougher than normal melee combatants, and there are still somewhere on the order of 8,000+ soldiers attacking them. Without an army to wipe out all of the soldiers defending the city, TE simply cannot take and hold the throne room by force. Even if the vast majority of the city's defenders are lowish level fighter types, they are still bodies that have to be physically stopped. And they provide cover for what is likely several hundred people in the city who are high enough level to harm TE (especially if TE has already expended most of their magic already).

If we assume that somehow TE does learn the location of the gate and just makes a beeline there and attacks directly, they could certainly take the throne room (just like Xykon did), but then they will fail (either killed directly by Soon and the Martyrs, or over more time as defenders arrive in wave after wave for hours and hours until they die or retreat). Any subterfuge they use will work right up until whomever they are working with (say Kuboto) figures out that they have plans for the throne room that don't involve him sitting there, and the same entire power of the city goes after them, and they fail (just as above)

Basically, any plan that doesn't wipe out 99% or so of the city's soldiers and nobles and the SG just doesn't work. My mention earlier that Brian's poinnt is "technically correct", is not because I think there's a means to do this via subterfuge, but that there are presumably alternative means to wipe out a city's population and defenders other than just an army.

Exactly why I rejected this option entirely. Two spellcasters can cause a lot of mayhem and get away, but they probably can't take the city by force. So, taking and holding the city is not my plan.

Yeah. More or less the point. It's about which is more difficult. And yeah, I still maintain that taking and holding the throne room in Azure city was by far more difficult than taking and holding any of the other gates locations. As several people have pointed out, the throne room itself had defenders that were as tough (arguably tougher against TE and Xykon specifically) than those we know of anywhere else. And that's on top of the whole "it's in the middle of a fortified and well defended city full of people who will come after someone camping out in their throne room".

There's some question as to what was binding the Martyrs in the room too. It's quite possible that they simply could not be removed without destroying the gate itself (they were tied to the gem). Maybe Redcloak could figure out some way to santify (in an entirely evil way) the room and drive them away. Maybe. But could he do this before hordes of paladins descended on the room? Probably not. And every single paladin they kill in the room will then rise again as another martyr. Even if we assume the rest of the city sits around for a while paralyzed at the sudden attack on the throne room, the paladins will not, creating an almost impossible and re-occuring attack force, that they can't actually kill (maybe banish for a while), and over time more and more forces will be mobilized and sent to attack.

I'd be shocked if TE manages to hold the throne room for a day or two. Probably less than an hour (but if they do hold it that long, it'll take longer to get rid of them).

And, that's barring more extreme measures (like collapsing the tower). They also do have a fully operational city, with all of the resources that entails. Explosives. Fire. Seige weapons. Oh... and ninjas! Lots and lots of stuff. There's a scaling problem here. D&D scales characters to small scale conflicts. They just don't work large scale. Not even powerful spell casters. Fireball is great, but that kills maybe 30 or so mooks? Great. There's 8,970 more to kill. You will literally run out of spells before they run out of soldiers. It's the same point that was made to Haley before the battle. Sheer numbers of forces makes high levels and HPs meaningless. And again, the city does still have a boatload of clerics, and even mid level folks can effectively do things like dispell magic (maybe not hit the highest level spells, but that'll get some stuff). And that's assuming they don't have some interesting magic items and artifacts lying about in the hands of various nobles and people of note. And while the nobles certainly fought against each other for position and power, if there's one thing that would have rallied them all, it would be a smallish group of evil folks sitting in the throne room of the city they're all fighting to control. The reason many of the nobles fled was not because of TE, but because of the army. Take the army away, and leave just three bad guys, and every one of them will join in the effort to recover the throne (and possibly do so for themselves if they can manage it, but TE will not be left when they are done).


Yeah. Just not seeing it at all. I do agree that you could technically take the city without using an army, but whatever alternative you use pretty much has to result in the same thing: Wiping out the city's defenders and leaving you with full control of the city afterwards. So if you don't use an army, you have to use something with similar capabilities (hence a distinction without a difference). None of the other gates require this. The closest were Lirian and Girard's gates, and they had nowhere near the sheer numbers and defense options that Azure City had.

Again, repeating all the reasons that I opted to not take the city by force does nothing to detract from my plan. It simply reinforces why I opted to not take the city by force.

Since I am not killing paladins in the throne room, I don't have to worry about them rising as ghost martyrs. Since I am not fighting battles I don't have to worry about peasants rising up against me. Almost every point you made presumes I am doing things I explicitly said I am not doing.

There is one point in there that is important: Dealing with Soon and the Ghost Martyrs. I expect their presence and reveal to be as dramatic as it was in comic. I expect TE will be forced to withdraw. Since they were not defeated in comic, I don't know how they would be in the game I propose. I expect Redcloak to take the lead there using his extensive knowledge of undead. I am also curious if there is room in Lirian and Dorukon's prison.

The answer is unknown, so I can only hope RC and X have what it takes.

Whether an army was required or not, the fact is Redcloak and Xykon as they were prior to the assault wouldn't have considered any other alternative.

Redcloak had a hard enough time keeping Xykon focused on the goal, he wouldn't have wanted to add more cats to keep on the same ball of yarn. He even had great difficulty accepting the hobgoblins that Xykon foisted on him, and THEIR militant loyalty was absolute. Redcloak as he is now will preserve goblin lives whenever possible (except for the obvious Armageddon issue), but most of that growth came during and after the city assault.

As for Xykon: running a con is one thing. Running a multi-year coup? HA! his boredom is so all-encompassing that he kept almost killing O-Chul to get some kind of amusement while waiting for the paladin to confess the next gate's secrets. Xykon can be patient for hours and days, not months and years.

1: In my premise, no army is available. What they want, in this case, is not relevant. The scenario calls for another option.

2: Where do you get the idea that this operation is a multi-year coup? It is a blitz. I plan for a week per phase of the operation, with allowances for up to two weeks if a phase hits a sticking point. If the operation takes too long it allows the opposition time to align against me. To succeed I must be into the next phase before the enemy figures out what I did in the last one.

[Gurgeh]

Because there is no DM. This is not a D&D campaign.

[Errorname]

Because there is no DM. This is not a D&D campaign.

Even if it was, and even if TE were the PCs instead of the Order, that'd be no reason to assume the DM had any intention of this plotline playing out as a political game.

General rule of thumb, if the DM gives you an army in a game they're running, it is because they expect you to use it.

[Mechalich]

It's not just that it'll take longer without an army, the direct approach will simply fail without one. Remember, we're still operating under D&D rules. TE is (mostly) made up of two spell casters (and MitD, so there's that). Very powerful for the first, say 5 minutes or so of fighting folks. Then, once the spells run out, they're more or less slightly tougher than normal melee combatants, and there are still somewhere on the order of 8,000+ soldiers attacking them. Without an army to wipe out all of the soldiers defending the city, TE simply cannot take and hold the throne room by force. Even if the vast majority of the city's defenders are lowish level fighter types, they are still bodies that have to be physically stopped. And they provide cover for what is likely several hundred people in the city who are high enough level to harm TE (especially if TE has already expended most of their magic already).

You're forgetting about minionomancy. Redcloak has Create Greater Undead in his arsenal. He uses it during the attack on the city, creating three high-level undead that do a great deal of damage as fake Xykons. He also has the ability to summon powerful elementals and other conventional summons. Once the high-level clerics and paladins are neutralized, Redcloak can unleash a handful of wraiths or specters to roam through Azure City and systematically murder every living humanoid and there is squat that can be done to stop this.

And there aren't several hundred people in the city who are powerful enough to harm Redcloak and Xykon, there are more like a dozen, and that's counting the OOTS. The Order, itself, is broadly higher level than any of the defenders excepting Miko. Most of the Paladins, regardless of level, have absolutely no ability to harm such high-level casters unless they are able to force them into melee. The clerics are better off, but during the battle we observe, Xykon and Redcloak murder basically all of them.

Team Evil can't take the city in a single assault, true, but they absolutely can do so by launching several targeted attacks to kill everyone over level 8 or so, at which point they unleash the undead and everyone in the city dies while Azure City fills up with Wraith spawns. This is the fundamental nature of 3.5 D&D - the masses are absolutely powerless, it's simply a calculation of how long the massacre takes.