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    Default Re: OOTS #1291 - The Discussion Thread

    Foreshadowing Snarlkon?
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    Default Re: OOTS #1291 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    If TDO seriously wanted the Plan to stop he probably would have been more direct about that. It's certainly possible that he might be more willing to abandon it if a viable alternative comes up than Redcloak, though.
    A thought: one of the properties of the Red Cloak is to block communication between its wearer and any deities. This is to prevent its wearer from any other influence, but has the negative effect of preventing its wearer from reaching TDO. If Redcloak took it off for a few hours, he'd be able to chat with TDO, but of course he'll never do that.
    Last edited by bunsen_h; 2023-11-28 at 12:29 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1291 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    There's not a whole lot of undead that let the original soul still remain in the body regardless, so "undead Belkar" would still be highly likely to be not actually Belkar to start with.
    It has been aleged on various discussions that Liber Mortis (the 3.5 sourcebook on undead) states that EVERY intilligent undead retains the soul of the original creature, it's just that Liches and Ghosts are two of the few cases where the original soul is in charge rather than trapped inside a monster.

    (Note that it's stated that the ritual to become a lich is evil, although not why or how; and Ghosts are the undead with "Alignment: Any", presumably because since in both cases the original soul is in command, the original alignment is retained.)

    Having every single undead (regardless of Int) have the original soul inside would be (more) consistent with the stated PHB rules than otherwise, as True Ressurect (and other extremely high-powered methods of returning the dead to life that do not require a body) do not work on someone currently undead, and the only other things that I know of to stop true resurect are all known to destroy or trap the character's soul (edited to add: or the soul simply refuses to return).
    Last edited by Doug Lampert; 2023-11-28 at 02:56 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1291 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    It has been aleged on various discussions that Liber Mortis (the 3.5 sourcebook on undead) states that EVERY intilligent undead retains the soul of the original creature, it's just that Liches and Ghosts are two of the few cases where the original soul is in charge rather than trapped inside a monster.

    (Note that it's stated that the ritual to become a lich is evil, although not why or how; and Ghosts are the undead with "Alignment: Any", presumably because since in both cases the original soul is in command, the original alignment is retained.)

    Having every single undead (regardless of Int) have the original soul inside would be (more) consistent with the stated PHB rules than otherwise, as True Ressurect (and other extremely high-powered methods of returning the dead to life that do not require a body) do not work on someone currently undead, and the only other things that I know of to stop true resurect are all known to destroy or trap the character's soul (edited to add: or the soul simply refuses to return).
    Fair, but "in control" was my intended meaning anyway. Could have been more clear on that, looks like.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1291 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    It has been aleged on various discussions that Liber Mortis (the 3.5 sourcebook on undead) states that EVERY intilligent undead retains the soul of the original creature, it's just that Liches and Ghosts are two of the few cases where the original soul is in charge rather than trapped inside a monster.
    There are exceptions to that, but those are usually called out directly in the fluff of the respective undead. The devourer for example is explicitely soul-less and driven by that to steal and devour souls.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1291 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bunsen_h View Post
    A thought: one of the properties of the Red Cloak is to block communication between its wearer and any deities. This is to prevent its wearer from any other influence, but has the negative effect of preventing its wearer from reaching TDO. If Redcloak took it off for a few hours, he'd be able to chat with TDO, but of course he'll never do that.
    I do know better -- but if I didn't know better, I'd think RC designed it that way himself. (^_^)˚

    Although the motivation would be 99% subconscious. He'd angrily deny it was intended that way, if anyone ever pointed out that it would benefit someone whose ego supersedes TDO's interests… and he'd actually believe it.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1291 - The Discussion Thread

    How the Dark One reacts is probably going to depend on where Redcloak's ending up. Whatever Redcloak's final decision, he shouldn't make it just be because his god told him to. So if Redcloak abandons the plan, he probably has to sell the Dark One on it, Redcloak refuses to change until it's too late, Dark One probably wants him to change course.

    Quote Originally Posted by bunsen_h View Post
    A thought: one of the properties of the Red Cloak is to block communication between its wearer and any deities. This is to prevent its wearer from any other influence, but has the negative effect of preventing its wearer from reaching TDO. If Redcloak took it off for a few hours, he'd be able to chat with TDO, but of course he'll never do that.
    This would presumably undermine Redcloak's ability to get spells from TDO, and it'd be kind of weird for Redcloak to not know about this property
    Last edited by Errorname; 2023-11-29 at 02:48 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1291 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Thermophille View Post
    Good points, I forgot about the 'blackout on rift/gate knowledge' thing for the gods, mb. Thinking about it, TDO doesn't even necessarily know this isn't the second world, ie, he wouldn't even necessarily know that destroying the world is something the gods even have on the table.
    Yeah, I wasn't quite willing to go far enough to commit to arguing that point, but I think it's definitely possible The Dark One doesn't even know there were previous worlds.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1291 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Yeah, I wasn't quite willing to go far enough to commit to arguing that point, but I think it's definitely possible The Dark One doesn't even know there were previous worlds.
    ...Which means he likely has no idea how the purple quiddity arguably might be an even better bargaining chip.

    Honestly I'm personally betting that TDO is going to be at least a bit more pragmatic about the Plan than Redcloak and that he probably cares enough about the goblins even if he's still Evil. Even if it's not enough for him to drop the Plan immediately.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1291 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    ...Which means he likely has no idea how the purple quiddity arguably might be an even better bargaining chip.
    Oh, yeah! I hadn't thought about it too deeply from that angle, but it's true. If this were only the second world (which is all he knows, per Redcloak's recounting in Start of Darkness), rather than the thirtyleventh-quinbillionth, then the "new quiddity" development is much less rare and there's more incentive for the gods to keep remaking the world and to "wait for a god that is more reasonable."

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Honestly I'm personally betting that TDO is going to be at least a bit more pragmatic about the Plan than Redcloak and that he probably cares enough about the goblins even if he's still Evil. Even if it's not enough for him to drop the Plan immediately.
    I certainly wouldn't be surprised by that. Redcloak is invested in The Plan more than anything. We don't know enough about TDO to say whether this specific plan is more important than the goals he has in mind with it, and I wouldn't be surprised at all-- I'd say it's likely, but I really have no idea and I'm just pulling it out of thin air-- if the goals are more important to TDO than how they are accomplished.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1291 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Oh, yeah! I hadn't thought about it too deeply from that angle, but it's true. If this were only the second world (which is all he knows, per Redcloak's recounting in Start of Darkness), rather than the thirtyleventh-quinbillionth, then the "new quiddity" development is much less rare and there's more incentive for the gods to keep remaking the world and to "wait for a god that is more reasonable."
    And for that matter why it's so sure that "if the world is destroyed TDO gets a say in the creation of the next world" won't work - there's precedent for why not.

    I certainly wouldn't be surprised by that. Redcloak is invested in The Plan more than anything. We don't know enough about TDO to say whether this specific plan is more important than the goals he has in mind with it, and I wouldn't be surprised at all-- I'd say it's likely, but I really have no idea and I'm just pulling it out of thin air-- if the goals are more important to TDO than how they are accomplished.
    Honestly I think the only way to square the circle at this point without negating either Redcloak personally or the goblins as a whole is for TDO to not have Redcloak's sunken cost fallacy.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1291 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Somniloquist View Post
    All his [the Dark One's] message for Redcloak said was "Don't screw this up." Without specifying what "this" is. Obviously Redcloak assumed that meant the Plan, but what if it actually means Gobbotopia?
    #704 is more specific than that. Jirix says “he had a message for you. Regarding the Plan and all.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    There's not a whole lot of undead that let the original soul still remain in the body regardless, so "undead Belkar" would still be highly likely to be not actually Belkar to start with.
    A competent necromancer could probably make undead Belkar be indistinguishable from the real Belkar (#259 last panel).

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    Default Re: OOTS #1291 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
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    Let's be fair, even to Xykon.

    Redcloak hard-sold him on becoming a lich, something he didn't even know existed before Redcloak brought it up. He explicitly asked if there were any downsides and Redcloak said "no." In that circumstance I would be inclined to blame Redcloak too, if less inclined to kill random waitresses because of it.
    Agreed. His reaction was extreme, but his anger was at least somewhat justified.

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    It's been mentioned before, but uh, not a fan of "TDO isn't real and therefore the goblins can go and pack sand" theories. It's pretty clear that nobody with the power to do anything about them will give any real help if the goblins have no leverage, whether the Snarl or a new quiddity. Especially when Thor, Loki, Tiamat, and Rat have all met TDO in person.

    Honestly I just think he hasn't been "on-screen" so we get a really cool panel of him being shown in the comic for realsies, like Hel showing up at the end of BRItF and revealing that the vampire isn't Durkon at all and was working for her.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tzardok View Post
    Jirix, the hobgoblin cleric that was raised, also met TDO in person and brought a message back for Redcloak.
    Not to mention Thor, talking directly to his cleric, which is as authoritative/reliable a source as we're going to get until TDO shows up in the comic himself. TDO is definitely real and definitely a god, even though the exact circumstances of his ascension have room for a twist or two.

    Quote Originally Posted by bunsen_h View Post
    A thought: one of the properties of the Red Cloak is to block communication between its wearer and any deities. This is to prevent its wearer from any other influence, but has the negative effect of preventing its wearer from reaching TDO. If Redcloak took it off for a few hours, he'd be able to chat with TDO, but of course he'll never do that.
    Didn't TDO
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    yell "LEARN" when RC put it on?
    I think he has the ability to talk to him and simply chooses not to. Just because he's the goblins' best hope to escape a life of being fodder doesn't mean he's not a jerk.

    And "no other deities can talk to RC," if that rule exists at all, would seem to me to be one of the rules preventing divine intervention in general rather than a rule specific to TDO.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1291 - The Discussion Thread

    I've been thinking about all this "The Snarl has the same color of The Dark One from the very beginning" and I believe that the theory that The Snarl is The Dark One might be somehow true:

    In fact, if The Snarl, after destroying so many worlds[1], were able to create it's OWN[2], won't it, after slaying a full pantheon[3] of Gods, be able to create it's own God?[4]

    The new quiddity could be, for example, Orange, or maybe this could be the color of the Threads of Reality that makes The Snarl and also the whole world - both being the same color is really suspicious.

    But of course, if TDO is controlled by The Snarl, or the person(god?)ification of The Snarl, where is the 4th quiddity necessary to fix the world?

    Remember that TDO has a new color because he "ascended to godhood (...) without any sponsorship by one of the existing pantheons"[5].. just like Banjo and Giggles[6] (and also Banjulhu) the Gods of the Puppet Pantheon, created by Elan and worshiped by the Orcs.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1291 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward15 View Post
    I do believe that Elan and Belkar just alluded to "Start of Darkness" when Xykon first transformed into a lich.

    The guy's never had a cup of Java since.
    But since he's drawn as a reanimated skeleton as a lich instead of fleshy, how could he even drink coffee without it falling down through the bottom of his jaw?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1291 - The Discussion Thread

    Exactly! It's so sad.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1291 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaos Bard View Post
    I've been thinking about all this "The Snarl has the same color of The Dark One from the very beginning" and I believe that the theory that The Snarl is The Dark One might be somehow true:
    Also, the Dark One's color itself is a mystery. We still don't know why he's purple if he's just a normal goblin.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1291 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Precure View Post
    Also, the Dark One's color itself is a mystery. We still don't know why he's purple if he's just a normal goblin.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1291 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaos Bard View Post
    I've been thinking about all this "The Snarl has the same color of The Dark One from the very beginning" and I believe that the theory that The Snarl is The Dark One might be somehow true:

    In fact, if The Snarl, after destroying so many worlds[1], were able to create it's OWN[2], won't it, after slaying a full pantheon[3] of Gods, be able to create it's own God?[4]

    The new quiddity could be, for example, Orange, or maybe this could be the color of the Threads of Reality that makes The Snarl and also the whole world - both being the same color is really suspicious.

    But of course, if TDO is controlled by The Snarl, or the person(god?)ification of The Snarl, where is the 4th quiddity necessary to fix the world?

    Remember that TDO has a new color because he "ascended to godhood (...) without any sponsorship by one of the existing pantheons"[5].. just like Banjo and Giggles[6] (and also Banjulhu) the Gods of the Puppet Pantheon, created by Elan and worshiped by the Orcs.

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    [4] oots0704
    [5] oots1142
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    Leaving aside the Banjo thing (come on) I don't think there's any real likelihood that snarl=TDO. "The plan" is way too convoluted for that. No need for a ritual that requires arcane and divine casting - just destroy the gates, game over.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1291 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    Leaving aside the Banjo thing (come on) I don't think there's any real likelihood that snarl=TDO. "The plan" is way too convoluted for that. No need for a ritual that requires arcane and divine casting - just destroy the gates, game over.
    Destroying the gates is not a victory for the snarl, the gods would just run and hide again like they've done billions of time before.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1291 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaos Bard View Post
    I've been thinking about all this "The Snarl has the same color of The Dark One from the very beginning" and I believe that the theory that The Snarl is The Dark One might be somehow true
    The biggest problem with any theory based on the Snarl and the Dark One being the same color is the fact that the Snarl and the Dark One are not the same color.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1291 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Precure View Post
    Destroying the gates is not a victory for the snarl, the gods would just run and hide again like they've done billions of time before.
    What would be victory, then? After all, the gods would also destroy the planet if The Plan comes to fruition. If the idea is that the snarl is already free and wants to eat the gods - why doesn't it? If it wants cooperation - why is TDO dodging instead of talking?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1291 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Didn't TDO
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    yell "LEARN" when RC put it on?
    I think he has the ability to talk to him and simply chooses not to. Just because he's the goblins' best hope to escape a life of being fodder doesn't mean he's not a jerk.
    It isn't clear if that came from TDO or from the Cloak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    And "no other deities can talk to RC," if that rule exists at all, would seem to me to be one of the rules preventing divine intervention in general rather than a rule specific to TDO.
    I'm not sure if we're talking past each other, but that's exactly what I was suggesting: no deities are able to communicate with the wearer of the Cloak. Unfortunately, TDO is not excepted from that. Mind you, I don't think this is a very likely explanation for why Redcloak hasn't been able to have communication with TDO (beyond continuing to receive the spells he asks for, of course).

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    Default Re: OOTS #1291 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bunsen_h View Post
    It isn't clear if that came from TDO or from the Cloak.



    I'm not sure if we're talking past each other, but that's exactly what I was suggesting: no deities are able to communicate with the wearer of the Cloak. Unfortunately, TDO is not excepted from that. Mind you, I don't think this is a very likely explanation for why Redcloak hasn't been able to have communication with TDO (beyond continuing to receive the spells he asks for, of course).
    Redcloak is able, but he chooses not to. At least, that's what he said to Durkon. He is giving TDO some space, or whatever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    I certainly wouldn't be surprised by that. Redcloak is invested in The Plan more than anything.
    I have mentioned this before, but I think it is worth repeating. The Red Cloak appears to be an artifact, artifacts typically have (in D&D terms) beneficial and detrimental side effects (they have since they were introduced in Eldritch Wizardry), which leads me to:
    ...one of the side effects of this artifact may be the obsession / mania Redcloak (character) has as regards The Plan (or an amplification of it) since the artifact either comes from, or is directly connected, to TDO.
    Were he to remove the red cloak, he might have an "aha moment" as regards the sunk cost problem ... but I am not sure that Rich would go down what is roughly a "cursed item" line for character development for RC.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaos Bard View Post
    I've been thinking about all this "The Snarl has the same color of The Dark One from the very beginning" and I believe that the theory that The Snarl is The Dark One might be somehow true:
    Not quite.
    In the scene where Thor describes his initial meeting with TDO, TDO is there in the same place as the gods. Were TDO the Snarl, they'd have already fled.
    Remember that TDO has a new color because he "ascended to godhood (...)
    Not because but rather when. TDO appears to be an anomaly (per Thor's exposition).
    Remember that some of the elves ascended to godhood, but they didn't get a new color/quiddity when they did so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    He was clearly an exceptional goblin.
    True that.
    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    What would be victory, then?
    For the Snarl, not being locked/trapped in a prison/world, is a victory condition.
    I still suspect that Snarl is the creator of the world within the rift .... but that's speculation.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2023-11-30 at 10:27 AM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1291 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Not because but rather when. TDO appears to be an anomaly (per Thor's exposition).
    Remember that some of the elves ascended to godhood, but they didn't get a new color/quiddity when they did so.
    I would say the important word is not when, but how. With the ascended elves it was mentioned that their ascension was sponsored by the existing deities. (Also probably with Dvalin, who also ascended on this world).

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    Default Re: OOTS #1291 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzardok View Post
    I would say the important word is not when, but how. With the ascended elves it was mentioned that their ascension was sponsored by the existing deities. (Also probably with Dvalin, who also ascended on this world).
    Did Dvalin ascend on this world in particular? Or just later than the primal deities, and sponsored by some of them?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1291 - The Discussion Thread

    I find it unlikely that Dvalin was born a movie snack.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1291 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bunsen_h View Post
    Did Dvalin ascend on this world in particular? Or just later than the primal deities, and sponsored by some of them?
    Thor's note that no one sponsored TDO strongly implies someone in the Northern Pantheon sponsored Dvalin, since he votes with them and has a yellow quiddity. As for this world, well, his oath references his time as a mortal and the council of clans, neither of which would be terribly relevant if he'd ascended in a previous world. I guess he could remake some form of the clans every time(he might even have to now that I think on it, given how mortal belief shapes the gods), but occams razor says he's from this world.


    EDIT: strip showing this stuff is found here https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html
    Last edited by Provengreil; 2023-11-30 at 08:55 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1291 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Were he to remove the red cloak, he might have an "aha moment" as regards the sunk cost problem ... but I am not sure that Rich would go down what is roughly a "cursed item" line for character development for RC.
    I man, he HAS taken it off before.
    "Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman

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