Is V a weakness for the team due to the IFCC?

[Mic_128]

I don't doubt that they may have access to epic level scrying (Eugene and Roy did when Roy was dead), but I'll also point out that they were scrying on V, and not on Team Evil directly.

That time, yeah. But they also knew about Xykon, him going after the gates and their lack of doing anything after Azure City fell. Sabine told the IFCC about him and the gates, so it seems fairly likely they were able to scry on the lich.

[gbaji]

That time, yeah. But they also knew about Xykon, him going after the gates and their lack of doing anything after Azure City fell. Sabine told the IFCC about him and the gates, so it seems fairly likely they were able to scry on the lich.

Sure. I was just being a bit pedantic there, since it was technically V they were scrying on during that fight. We can certainly debate how well they can scry different people, based on different amounts of knowledge and whatnot about those people, and how that may correlate to different types of defenses against scrying if we want (and how powerful their own scrying is). But that's not really the thrust of what I'm talking about.

As I mentioned above, I suspect it's far more about granting them a "backdoor" to project power directly into the area where V's body is at the time they pull V's soul out. I kinda see this as a case where once you have a connection that allows for magic to be used in that spot (for purpose of pulling V's soul and protecting V's body for said duration), that same connection could be used for other purposes as well. So even if they could scry on Xykon, or Roy, or anyone else who happened to be in the Final Dungeon at any given moment, they very likely could not actually use any magic directly against them or through them. They've already stated that they can only operate directly when making deals (and that's super rare as well), and normally have to work through agents like Qarr and Sabine. And the nature of the stone the Final Dungeon is encased in may normally block interdimensional magic (like gate). But... if they've already got some connection that allows them to pull V's soul out of there (and project some sort of magic shield around V), then that same connection maybe can be used to send someone (or a group of someone's) to the same location?

Just speculation here, but to me this makes the most sense in terms of how the IFCC might put someone into the fray (or even possibly themselves if they're really willing to act that directly). Even knowing exactly where TE and the Order are, and being able to scry and see exactly what's required to get to the Final Dungeon, it would still be nearly impossible for any of their operatives to actually get there in time to do anything (if they could do so at all). TE is already using a very powerful being of Law to get through the dungeons in record time, it seems unlikely that anyone could get through any faster, and baring being able to gate or teleport in, there's no other way to get there. Since TE isn't actually killing the monsters, there's a pretty massive block to anyone else arriving in the Final Dungeon during the same time period as TE and the Order will presuambly get into their conflict.

Which is why I put that speculation out there. If we assume the IFCC is going to intervene at some point at the actual Gate itself, they kinda have to have a way to physically get there. I suppose it's also perfectly possible to just assume that the directors have the epic power to just gate themselves or their operatives directly there right through the magic stone if they wish. That falls into the "I don't know" category. But... everything else being the same, why not assume that their previously established connection to V somehow makes this more possible, or easy, or less detectable, or whatever. Heck. Even if it's not, I could totally see them gloating that it did make everything possible for them, just to make V feel that much worse. Cause... you know... Evil.

[Tubercular Ox]

TE is already using a very powerful being of Law to get through the dungeons in record time, it seems unlikely that anyone could get through any faster, and baring being able to gate or teleport in, there's no other way to get there.

I feel compelled to point out that you should be able to get into the dungeon through the Gate. It seems less likely than just having some deus ex-y way to come in the front door, but for completeness' sake.

[gbaji]

I feel compelled to point out that you should be able to get into the dungeon through the Gate. It seems less likely than just having some deus ex-y way to come in the front door, but for completeness' sake.

I'm talking about some form of gate/planar-travel to do this. I'm also assuming that the stone in and around the Hollow prohibits this normally. Doesn't seem that crazy to assume that you could artifice up some stonework/magic/something to do the equivalent of a 6th level forbiddance spell, as a kind of obvious defense against folks just bypasisng your security. We've already been shown that some of the stone blocks teleportation spells (as well as ethereal travel), while others allow it, meaning that you can teleport from specific locations within the hollow to other locations (if you know where the "open" areas are). It's not unreasonable to assume that the same stone also blocks planar gates from working.

BTW, this was also brought up in a previous thread discussing the possibility of Xykon using gate to retreat to his astral fortress, and then having the Order chase him and have some dramatic fight there. I believe the consensus was that we just don't know if gate is possible in or out of the hollow much less the Final Dungeon. It might also be, just as with some levels of scrying being blocked in some areas, but sufficiently powerful versions working (and yeah, that's already outside the "normal" rules anyway), that the same could be in effect for planar travel in/out of the Hollow as well. We just don't know.

But I do think it's worthwhile to consider it as a possibility when asking what benefit they may gain from having a pre-existing contract allowing them direct magical access to V, and what effects that may have in terms of V being inside the Final Dungeon. It may have no bearing at all on anything. But I do think that, narratively, there's some value in having part of the effect of that agreement be to give the IFCC the ability to do something in the Final Dungeon that they would not have been able to do otherwise.

If we just assume that they can scry on anyone, anywhere (cause they've got Epic Inside!), and they can freely gate into where they can see via scrying, then they could literally always have the ability to scry on any member of TE or the Order, watch them in the Final Dungeon, and gate in whenever they want. More importantly, if they always had this ability, then so does every other interested party on any other plane as well. Which might just get a bit muddled in terms of whatever final conflict is planned in the story. If, however, the only outer planes beings who can do this, are those who had the forethought to send in the equivalent of a Star Trek Transporter Pattern Enhancer, then it will allow the author to explain why they can interfere, but no one else can. Which allows Rich to narratively explain why they can actually do whatever it is they are doing, without anyone else actively intervening (at least not in time maybe).

[Tubercular Ox]

What do you think of Kraagor's Gate? Dorukan's Gate let Xykon push goblins through it. We don't know what Girard's Gate would've allowed, given that he encased it in lead/stone/whatever. Lirian's and Soon's seemed to be unusable as Gates.

One strip ago I was briefly excited that Rich might be stepping up the what's-in-the-gate storyline by having something invade from the other end. Obviously that was never likely but the idea is rattling around in my head now. It's highly unlikely for the IFCC since they would have to go in from one of the rifts and make it to Kraagor's Gate before coming out again. It's trivial for anything that lives (or "lives") on the other side because the plot can just place them there.

I'm not predicting anything, just trying to be complete.

[gbaji]

What do you think of Kraagor's Gate? Dorukan's Gate let Xykon push goblins through it. We don't know what Girard's Gate would've allowed, given that he encased it in lead/stone/whatever. Lirian's and Soon's seemed to be unusable as Gates.

I don't believe that the goblins ever actually passed through the gate itself. There was a sigil on the gate that prevented it from being accessed/opened. That's what Xykon was tossing goblins into, and which was zapping them. That was not a function of the gate itself, but a defensive enchantment that Durokon put on it to protect it from other people using the gate itself.

One strip ago I was briefly excited that Rich might be stepping up the what's-in-the-gate storyline by having something invade from the other end. Obviously that was never likely but the idea is rattling around in my head now. It's highly unlikely for the IFCC since they would have to go in from one of the rifts and make it to Kraagor's Gate before coming out again. It's trivial for anything that lives (or "lives") on the other side because the plot can just place them there.

Woah. Wait. Where you actually talking about them using "the gate" (as in Kraagar's gate) to enter? I was talking about "Gate", as in the actual spell, which allows people to open a portal from one plane within the known set of planes to another.

"The Gate" (as in Kraagar's gate) does not go to other planes within the known set of planes. It closes a seal on a rift that opens into an entirely different universe/world/whatever, where the Snarl is. The IFCC almost certainly have zero ability to travel into and then out of the rifts, much less use them to travel from one location to another within the normal stickverse world. If they could do that already, then that kinda steps on the entire point of the story. No one, not even the gods, know exactly what is on the other side of those rifts. They only know that the snarl is trapped within the world they created, and the rifts are tears in the world they created that allow the snarl to reach out into their world.

If the IFCC had the ability to safely enter one rift and then exit another, why on earth would they do this just to get to another location in the same plane that they can already access anyway? The entire point of thie exercise is that you have to get to the gate to access whatever is on the other side. Also, that the gates themselves "hold" the rifts within them dimensionally, so that having one intact allows you to control the location of the rift (or at least that's what The Dark One is trying to do). It's why every single gate that has been destroyed has been abandoned. Rifts without a gate around them, are just tears in the world, and aren't useful for anything other than getting "unmade" if you stand too close and the snarl gets you.

There's no reason to get to the Final Dungeon except to gain access to Kraagar's Gate. The Final Dungeon protects access to the Gate. Going the other direction makes no sense.

[Mic_128]

But I do think that, narratively, there's some value in having part of the effect of that agreement be to give the IFCC the ability to do something in the Final Dungeon that they would not have been able to do otherwise.

Yes, and that's yanking V out of the fight. They made it pretty clear cut that was all the contract was. "You use our souls, we have yours for the same length of time."

Which is why I put that speculation out there. If we assume the IFCC is going to intervene at some point at the actual Gate itself, they kinda have to have a way to physically get there.

The IFCC are unable to directly act on the mortal plane, with the exception of making deals.

[gbaji]

Yes, and that's yanking V out of the fight. They made it pretty clear cut that was all the contract was. "You use our souls, we have yours for the same length of time."

The irony is that you are listing a power they have over V, which they never told V about while negotiating the deal, to argue that they can't possibly use some other power they have over V in the future, on the basis that they didn't tell V about it while negotiating the deal. And... shockingly, despite V not knowing that detail, nor them specifically stating it, they were not prevented from doing so anyway.

So why do you assume there are no other little details they just didn't tell V about? They are only bound by what they actually promised. Nothing else.

The IFCC are unable to directly act on the mortal plane, with the exception of making deals.

Yes. I"m well aware of that, and already examined that aspect of the issue:

They've already stated that they can only operate directly when making deals (and that's super rare as well), and normally have to work through agents like Qarr and Sabine. And the nature of the stone the Final Dungeon is encased in may normally block interdimensional magic (like gate). But... if they've already got some connection that allows them to pull V's soul out of there (and project some sort of magic shield around V), then that same connection maybe can be used to send someone (or a group of someone's) to the same location?

Just speculation here, but to me this makes the most sense in terms of how the IFCC might put someone into the fray (or even possibly themselves if they're really willing to act that directly).

I already covered the bases here. Obviously, if said link allows them to do sometihng like gate into a location that would otherwise be blocked from planar travel, then they could use that to send operatives to the Final Dungeon. But we also don't know if they are actually physically restricted from appearing on the prime material plane except when making deals, or just that those are "the rules", and there are penalties for breaking them (my guess is the later though). But if they're pulling off a big enough power grab, they may not care about "the rules" and be willing to break them anyway.

[Mic_128]

The irony is that you are listing a power they have over V, which they never told V about while negotiating the deal, to argue that they can't possibly use some other power they have over V in the future, on the basis that they didn't tell V about it while negotiating the deal. And... shockingly, despite V not knowing that detail, nor them specifically stating it, they were not prevented from doing so anyway.

So why do you assume there are no other little details they just didn't tell V about? They are only bound by what they actually promised. Nothing else.

Because there's a big difference between the specifics of something they agreed to (*when* they get their soul) versus additional, secret abilities (Using V as an anchor to summon hordes of fiends) You said it yourself: They are only bound by what they actually promised. Nothing else.

[Precure]

If it's not part of their deal...

What stops them from using V's unclaimed body?

[Unoriginal]

What do you think of Kraagor's Gate? Dorukan's Gate let Xykon push goblins through it. We don't know what Girard's Gate would've allowed, given that he encased it in lead/stone/whatever. Lirian's and Soon's seemed to be unusable as Gates.

Xykon never actually got access to Dorukan's Gate itself, he was stuck on the outer layer of protective seals.

Otherwise he'd have never let the Order live. Since the reason he did was because a good-aligned individual was needed to get to the Gate.

[Tubercular Ox]

Xykon never actually got access to Dorukan's Gate itself, he was stuck on the outer layer of protective seals.

Otherwise he'd have never let the Order live. Since the reason he did was because a good-aligned individual was needed to get to the Gate.

This is a confusing comic. The bonus strips in the book are even more confusing because Xykon mentions adding wooden doors to keep zombies from wandering in by accident.

I think the rune zaps people who cross the threshold. That's most consistent with all the language.

[Precure]

I think he was throwing them over the door, like what Roy done to him in here.

[Tubercular Ox]

I think he was throwing them over the door, like what Roy done to him in here.

In the bonus strips Xykon tells Jeff, "Feel free to open those up and take a look inside there."

[Precure]

Who's Jeff?

[gbaji]

Because there's a big difference between the specifics of something they agreed to (*when* they get their soul) versus additional, secret abilities (Using V as an anchor to summon hordes of fiends) You said it yourself: They are only bound by what they actually promised. Nothing else.

They are limited in terms of what they can do to V, by their promises. They are not limited at all in terms of other things they may be able to do, or *how* they do what they do, however. V may make assumptions about when/how they use their powers related to the deal (like already happened with the whole "they can take your soul while you are alive" bit), but those aassumptions need not be true.

I think maybe the difference here is that I have actually developed game rules for magic systems before, so I tend to think not just in terms of what something does, but how it does it within the context of the magic "rules" of the setting itself. And when we ask that question (ie: How do they actually do what they are doing), we have to conclude that a lot more power/access is present than might be thought at first. Sure. Pull V's soul to their plane. Great. But what about the body? They specifically stated that it would be "shielded from all harm for the duration of your stay".

Great! How exactly do they do that? Do they project some kind of invincible force field aroud V's body? How does that work, and what actual spells/magic are they using to do this (from another plane no less)? There has to be more than that though, since the one time we've seen this used, V was standing in an underground tunnel, maybe 20 feet from the source of a massive explosion that destroyed the pyramid. Yet, not only was V's body completely unharmed, but when V work up, V was just buried under a little sand on the surface of the desert. If all they did was protect the body, then V should have returned to find themselves in a collapsed tunnel, located under the rubble from the explosion (the tunnel was *under* the room with the gate, right?).

Which means that they didn't only protect V's body, they also moved it to a safe location after the duration. So more than just "take your soul" is involved here. And that's before we even consider *how* the are providing that protection. There aren't a whole lot of spells in D&D that make someone actualy immune to all forms of harm (and none of them are perfect, and protect from everything that could possibly happen). If I were constructing this (again, putting on my GM hat here), I wouldn't even bother trying. I'd just gate V's body from the location it's in, while pulling V's soul to a different location. I'd store the body (maybe in some kiind of stasis magic) in a prepared secured location on my home plane. I'd leave some sort of magical marker/locater where the body was, and then when the duration ends, return the body to the nearest "safe location" to the marker, drop the stasis/whatever, and shove the soul back in.

That allows us to do everything shown in the strip without getting into crazy levels of custom magic (and frankly, with a lot less magical "footprint" in the area itself, which might be signifcant given their supposed limits on doing things on the mortal plane). More importantly, this method works for every case we might consider. Certainly every case where some sort of direct protective spell (again, projected across planes, which is "tricky" to say the least) could work, this works "better" and is a heck of a lot cheaper/easier as well.

At the very least, regardless of how they do it, we do know that the deal allows them to move V's body (to keep it safe, right?). That right there, means they must have the power to do that. And if they have that power in the location V is, then they can do other things as well. Again, I'm thinking in terms of where they can target magic, and what magic they can use in the targeted location. And sure, we can assume that they just already have epic srying and epic magic, so they could do this already. But, as I pointed out above, if they can project magic to any location on the PMP they want (including the Final Dungeon, as long as they just know the name of at least one person there), then so can literally every other being of a similar power level, which presumably means they can't get away with what they have planned. I'm just assuming that, whatever their plans are, they will need to be able to put themselves into a position to do it, where other beings of similar power/level (who would be opposed to them) can't do anything to stop them.

And to do that, you need two things:

1. A location where beings of that power can't normally just intervene directly if they want.
2. Some special "thing" that allows you to do so anyway.

So yeah. Speculating about how their deal wiith V might give that to them, does seem worthwhile.

This is a confusing comic. The bonus strips in the book are even more confusing because Xykon mentions adding wooden doors to keep zombies from wandering in by accident.

That link also says that they are trying to "unseal" the gate. Yeah. It is a bit of a strange wording, since Redcloak says that Xykon is "sending goblins through the gate", and they are getting zapped. There is plenty of context in the strip though to conclude that they aren't actually going through the gate itself, but rather being zapped by a sigil that is protecting the gate, and preventing it from being "unsealed" in the first place.

I think the rune zaps people who cross the threshold. That's most consistent with all the language.

The threshold of the protective sigil, not the threshold of the gate itself. The gate is "sealed". It's not open. And certainly, no one is actually going through the rift that the gate hold sealed either. Rich has used inconsitent language on this over time. But the idea is that the gate holds the "seal" on the rift closed.

Basically, anyone who touched that gate got zapped by a defensive enchantment placed on it by Durokon. Getting zapped is not a function of traveling through a gate. It's a function of the defensive magic placed on that one particular gate, by the epic wizard who was protecting it. None of the other gates have sigils on them, and none of them zap people when touched.

It's actually completely unknown what might happen if someone tried to go through a gate. What is known is that the entire universe on the other side of the rifts is made up of the snarl, which literaly unmakes anything it attacks. Um... Except blackwing also saw a planet on the other side of a rift, and the entire group could see water on the other side of another. So... No one really knows for sure.

[Tubercular Ox]

Who's Jeff?

The Chief Gate Inspector for the two strips it takes before he gets fried by the rune.

[Unoriginal]

This is a confusing comic. The bonus strips in the book are even more confusing because Xykon mentions adding wooden doors to keep zombies from wandering in by accident.

I don't see what is confusing.

The Order of the Scribble's Gates aren't actual gates, they're crystal/gem-like structures sealing a rift in reality.


The wooden doors Xykon put to avoid minions touching Dorukan's Gate (unless he wants them to do it) are clearly visible in the comic you posted.

[KorvinStarmast]

I feel compelled to point out that you should be able to get into the dungeon through the Gate. It seems less likely than just having some deus ex-y way to come in the front door, but for completeness' sake.

Just a quick note: on the other side of the Gate is the Snarl. Good luck getting through the God Killing abomination as a means to come through the gate from the other side.
(Caveat: unless you are in the other world within the gate ...)

Xykon never actually got access to Dorukan's Gate itself, he was stuck on the outer layer of protective seals...a good-aligned individual was needed to get to the Gate.

What gate? I suspect that MitD perceives the "gates" as actual barriers or obstructions.

The Order of the Scribble's Gates aren't actual gates, they're crystal/gem-like structures sealing a rift in reality.

A gate is typically an entryway or an exit. (Garden gate, for example).
If the "Gates" are meant to stop movement through that spot, then the MitD's question makes a lot of sense.

[Tzardok]

If the "Gates" are meant to stop movement through that spot, then the MitD's question makes a lot of sense.

I mean, gates are there to be closed.

IIRC, the Giant said that the gems aren't the Gates themselves, more like locks or keystones that keep the gate where it should be (in front of the hole in reality).

[Tubercular Ox]

(Caveat: unless you are in the other world within the gate ...)

I mean, I know it's silly, but I keep thinking that if whatever was over there just came here, we could have the entire what's-behind-the-rift story without ever leaving the Final Dungeon. It's lazy of me. We should all just accept that we're going to explore a completely new location either just before, just after, or during the final confrontation. But it's the mood I'm put in when I find out the very secure dungeon has a backdoor that no one cares about because it's impossible to exploit.

And what about those Threads of Creation? What do those look like when you get closer in?

[Kardwill]

Just a quick note: on the other side of the Gate is the Snarl. Good luck getting through the God Killing abomination as a means to come through the gate from the other side.
(Caveat: unless you are in the other world within the gate ...)
What gate? I suspect that MitD perceives the "gates" as actual barriers or obstructions.
A gate is typically an entryway or an exit. (Garden gate, for example).
If the "Gates" are meant to stop movement through that spot, then the MitD's question makes a lot of sense.

Well, Dorukan's Not-Gate-Cristal-Structure was specifically shaped as an obvious gate/portal/doorway (unlike Soon's, for example, shaped like a common gemstone around which the throne was constructed).

But Dorukan Dungeon's appearance in the comic predates most of the exposition stuff. It's possible that, at the time, Rich's idea about the Gate was a far more litteral "Gateway to somewhere bad" than the "barriers blocking the actual doorway of a dimension" they are now. That kind of stealth retcon, where you decide on the actual storyline after everything has already been named and introduced, happens all the time in the early phase of a campaign, after all ^^

[KorvinStarmast]

But Dorukan Dungeon's appearance in the comic predates most of the exposition stuff. It's possible that, at the time, Rich's idea about the Gate was a far more litteral "Gateway to somewhere bad" than the "barriers blocking the actual doorway of a dimension" they are now. That kind of stealth retcon, where you decide on the actual storyline after everything has already been named and introduced, happens all the time in the early phase of a campaign, after all ^^

Fair point. And the MitD's perceptions (as regards the What Gate? running gag) will likely be a part of the final reveal.

[Tubercular Ox]

But Dorukan Dungeon's appearance in the comic predates most of the exposition stuff. It's possible that, at the time, Rich's idea about the Gate was a far more litteral "Gateway to somewhere bad" than the "barriers blocking the actual doorway of a dimension" they are now. That kind of stealth retcon, where you decide on the actual storyline after everything has already been named and introduced, happens all the time in the early phase of a campaign, after all ^^

I agree 100%. The bonus strips in DCF were written after Xykon's survival was published online, so they were a golden opportunity to retcon things.

Retconning the wooden doors on the gate to be something Xykon added pushes it closer to being like the other gates, but all the talk of Jeff opening the wooden doors, looking inside, seeing something through the gate, moving towards it, the rune starting to glow, and then Xykon ordering him to, "keep walking forward," still confuses me.

There were only 3 months between strip #121 and DCF, maybe Rich wasn't done and there was additional con to ret after that.

Fair point. And the MitD's perceptions (as regards the What Gate? running gag) will likely be a part of the final reveal.

Since I have a prediction in on this, do I repeat my assertions for posterity or just let it go?

[gbaji]

Retconning the wooden doors on the gate to be something Xykon added pushes it closer to being like the other gates, but all the talk of Jeff opening the wooden doors, looking inside, seeing something through the gate, moving towards it, the rune starting to glow, and then Xykon ordering him to, "keep walking forward," still confuses me.

First off, that's not a retcon about the wooden doors, since the strip never says anything about what the wooden doors are for, or who put them there.

That's more properly just called an "explanation".

Additionally, I'm not sure why this is confusing. The rune at the top is the sigil that Durokon placed on the gate. It zaps anyone who touches the gate itself. Xykon is trying to figure out how to disable the sigil, and is "experiementing" by having goblins "walk forward" into the gate, knowing they'll hit the defensive barrier the sigil has placed around the gate, and hoping to learn something about how it operates by seeing it in action. This is literally explained (fairly completely) in this strip (and the previous one).


It's entirely possible that in the early strips (certainly strips 96 and 97), Rich hadn't yet decided what the gate was, or what it did, so some of the wording is a bit awkward (sending the goblins "though the gate" for example). But it's all been well and truely explained, at length, since then. At no point did any goblin actually go "through the gate". They impacted on the sigil's defenses and got zapped. Which is also what happened to Zykon in these strips. Note, that he impacts something, the rune on top glows, and he gets zapped and blown apart.

That is Durokon's sigil. It it not a function of the gate itself. They never penetrated the sigil to gain access to the actual gate at any point in the story. We actually have not yet seen any of the gates "opened", much less anyone going "thorugh a gate" in this story.

[Precure]

I think Dorukan's gate is a gate in a very literal sense, as you can see snarl's color scheme behind the doors.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think Dorukan's gate is a gate in a very literal sense, as you can see snarl's color scheme behind the doors.

That got me opening up DCF and checking the bonus strips. And here it is, almost an hour later, as I read the commentaries ... and ... OK. But thanks.

[Schadrach]

The IFCC won't possess V's body. Don't forget that one of them is Lawful Evil, and the whole arrangement with the Soul Splice was part of a contract. For all their wickedness and trickery, Lawful Evil outsiders do not break contracts that they've made. The biggest danger that the IFCC poses to the Order of the Stick right now is their ability to yoink V out of the fight at the worst possible time, and Roy has already been trying to plan around that possibility.

That being said, I doubt that the contract prohibits them from dropping hints to their allies that there's an elf wizard who "conveniently" doesn't happen to have a soul inside it to stop someone from taking possession of it.

That depends on whether or not possession counts as "harm". This is why you always make fiends define their terms. If possession until V's soul is returned is not "harm" in and of itself, then you have a heavily protected body to act as a vessel for whatever happens to be around and in need of a body for several minutes.

That's an interesting thought. Most uses for souls in D&D related settings are permanent, so temporary custody would usually score a fiend nothing at all. But if they can hawk out V's casting ability for one battle, that would be quite significant if they had the right buyer.

Say for example, splicing V to Redcloak so that he could do the ritual himself should Xykon be removed from the picture (presuming the ritual happening is convenient for the IFCC's purposes - moving the gate to one of the lower planes might make it easier to make use of their artifact?)

Still, I'm inclined to think the caster needs to ultimately agree to being part of the splice to be used that way. More likely the council's only play is to remand V's soul to their custody, possibly show or say something to prod V in a given direction. Taking a party's high level wizard off the board with no warning is a heck of a power play as is.

I don't know why - they basically hold ownership over her soul each for a fixed period of time - there's nothing to say they can't put it to use as they please during that time so long as it gets returned to it's proper spot in roughly it's original condition when time is up. Just holding her and making her watch might even be a ploy - it's all they did the first time because it's all they had to do and it sets up the expectation that that's what will happen the other two times (thus setting an expectation for the potential damage caused by the others), despite that not being spelled out in the terms. Again, always make your fiends define all their terms.

[KorvinStarmast]

Say for example, splicing V to Redcloak so that he could do the ritual himself should Xykon be removed from the picture (presuming the ritual happening is convenient for the IFCC's purposes - moving the gate to one of the lower planes might make it easier to make use of their artifact?)

An intriguing possible future state.

there's nothing to say they can't put it to use as they please during that time so long as it gets returned to it's proper spot in roughly it's original condition when time is up.

"Just want to borrow the lawnmower..."

Again, always make your fiends define all their terms.

Good advice for deal making in general.

[Tzardok]

Reminds me of the thought experiment "What if a fey made a deal with a devil? Discuss."