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2024-01-02, 09:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2005
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- Albuquerque, NM
Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
I'm currently working on remaking Cleric subclasses work this way. Though I used 'Priest' instead of Thaumaturge, and added 'Cleric' as a medium armor wearing 1/2 caster. Templar/Crusader being a 1/3 caster, but getting more martial abilities than the 5E cleric. Inquisitor being a light armor wearing 2/3 caster, with specialized weapons and paladin-esque auras. I'm also working on their opposite, the Friar, that is built more like a divine Bard, specializing in group/party support and specialized in the quarterstaff (taking blatant inspiration from the Dark Age of Camelot class).
Unless, in universe, only some gods support specific subclasses. Or, more specifically, some domains support specific subclasses (since that seems to be ok in your worldview). So, you can be a Priest/Thaumaturge of Corellon or Mystra or any other god that has Arcane as part of their portfolio, but not a Templar/Crusader. Likewise, following a War domain precludes access to the Priest/Thaumaturge subclass. The quick and dirty conversion would be looking at current subclass armor and weapon restrictions. So, Tempest, Twilight, and War wouldn't have Priests. Forge, Life, and Nature wouldn't have any restrictions. The others wouldn't have Templars.
+1 (I'd love to see an alternate Earth where multiclassing was never thought up and see how the game would be different (better? worse? not sure - but definitely different.)
Same for Paladin and Ranger getting spells at 2nd level, but subclass at 3rd. Unless you don't think that spells are as defining for those classes as Ki is for Monk... which is fair, but not something I agree with.
Paladin should just be another name for Templar/Crusader ;)Trollbait extraordinaire
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2024-01-02, 11:12 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2010
- Location
- Where I live.
Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
Why would you want to leave a conversation that's clearly far more interesting?
I'd be intrigued to see the alternate timeline where multiclassing was based on multiclassing (pre-3e's equivalent to gestalt) and not dual-classing. Or where 5e embraced 4e-style multiclassing (read: it's a feat that gives you goodies from a particular class) — I know that Everyday Heroes (the 5e version of d20 Modern) goes that route, but that game also goes super hard on feats, so...
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2024-01-02, 01:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
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- San Francisco Bay area
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
Alright, while probably the answer is “wait for the new PHB to be published and see”, to all y’all who somehow know what’s coming up: what does D&D2024 have that I’d like?
Mostly I play (Champion) Fighters, and (Swashbuckler) Rogues (when I think I can stand the complexity of playing one).
The only details I remember about this (partially) new edition is that for some reason “races” is being renamed “species”, and (annoying) everyone gets a Feat at first level.
What I’d like are rules for simpler to play Paladins and Rangers (‘cause thematically I like those classes), and (if I can dream) rules that spellcasters eventually go insane, their brains get eaten by demons, or something else badass that’s thematically sword & sorcery.
Anything in the new rules I’ll like?
@Mastikator,
D&D really only needs one “class”: Fighter.
The rest (especially Wizard) can be in the Monster Manual
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2024-01-02, 02:21 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2013
Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
We can see a bit of that alternate timeline depending on which playgroup you look at. AD&D Multiclassing (You have 2-3 classes and separate xp tracks for when each class levels up) and AD&D Dualclassing (Stop leveling in class A and switch to leveling in class B) are modeled by the level by level multiclassing of 3E/5E, depending on how the player multiclasses.
In my experience with the playgroups I have been in, "dipping" is non-existent. Instead we saw the ratio multiclassing simplified from multiple xp tracks to a single xp track but keeping the multiclassing ratio. In my current campaign one of the PCs is something like a Crusader/Totemist/Psion that could have been using AD&D Multiclassing with separate xp tracks.
I expect that alternate timeline would have official ratios of 1:1, 1:1:1, and 1:2. There would be common houserules for 1:1:2 and 1:2:2 ratios as well. The forums would discuss imbalance between single class having higher level features vs multiclass having more levels. Unfortunately playable species might be keep very limited, until they had the idea to have monster classes as one of the classes in the ratio. Oh, and 5E would not have sharp tier break points because sudden power spikes (Extra Attack at 5th) don't work as well if half the party won't get them.Last edited by OldTrees1; 2024-01-02 at 02:24 PM.
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2024-01-02, 02:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
I mean, I'm not actually trying to convince you, that's a lost cause I'm pointing out the other side of the change you mentioned more generally. Paladins and Rangers get spellcasting at level 1 now, so the Fighting Style being level 2 is even more fine than it was before. (Honestly, both classes were pretty lame at level 1 in 2014, probably to keep them from stepping on Fighter's toes.
Sure it does. It even solves some prior issues, such as why every single patron regardless of flavor gives Warlocks the exact same laser beam. (Answer - they actually don't.)
The only powers that have to come from the Patron are the subclass features. Everything else including the pact boons are up in the air - they can be from the Patron too, or one of their lesser servants, or they can be the result of Warlock's other deals and general secret-mongering.
I think the narrative is fine. 1st and 2nd-level Clerics are acolytes that haven't earned a Domain yet; 1st and 2nd-level Warlocks aren eophytes subsisting on lesser pacts; 1st and 2nd-level Sorcerers haven't unlocked the true secret of their heritage. And in all three cases there is storytelling potential that didn't exist before - the character who thinks their power source is going to be X when it actually turns out to be Y, where Y could even be a power they find shocking or abhorrent.
Champion and Swashbuckler got a lot of mechanical buffs vs 2014 (primarily from the base class chassis) but it's hard for me to say exactly what you'll like given this list. In particular, Champion has some solid out of combat utility now from Tactical Mind, Remarkable Athlete actually makes them a remarkable athlete, Heroic Warrior and Studied Attacks combo well with their critical enhancements, Tactical Shift gives them fantastic mobility, and the buffs to Second Wind and Indomitable give them much stronger defenses.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2024-01-02, 02:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2015
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- The Netherlands
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
I don't really get 'same as any splatbook' - a new (half) edition seems more problematic to me to use partly. Maybe it's possible to incorporate new (sub)classes, but either they replace something in use, or you'll have two (sub)classes with the same name. And these new features are balanced with the rest of 5.5 in mind, not with 5e, which might cause balance issues.
But if it's possible, it's cool. If there are a few things that are definitely improvements that I can borrow for my 5e games and the rest of the group agrees, I might even get the PHB. Comparing it to the switch from 3 to 3.5, we did a total switch there, all buying new books and only playing 3.5. I don't see my current group make the same decision now though.
Yes, that was great. Damn shame they didn't bother to make a class based on that mechanic (and the ToB mechanic, and psionics, and 3e Warlock/dragonfire adept mechanics) in 5e, cause the framework really allows it. And it would have gotten a helluvalot more interesting options than just another "uses spells as mechanic" class. Oh well, that's more for the 'what would you really like in 6e if you could change one thing' thread.
One other thing I consider: the 'sack over 1000 folks just before X-mas and giving the CEO a 9 milion bonus' which Hasbro did is pretty disgusting in my view and yet another reason for rather not spending money on D&D (or MtG for that matter). That, and having an edition that works fine, having years and years of campaign material for 5e lying around, and playing other games instead which is just as much fun (different beast, but similar thematics: we started with Gloomhaven some time ago and that guarantees just as D&D years of fun for evenings in the weekends).
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2024-01-02, 02:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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- Texas
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2024-01-02, 02:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2019
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- Los Angeles, CA
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
What if I want my level 1 sorcerer to know the true secret of their heritage? Imagine a member of the Draketooth clan in the comic; they know from birth where their powers come from. Or what if I want my level 1 warlock to have sold their soul, mistakenly, on a whim, and spend the rest of their career dealing with the fallout? (See Eugene Greenhilt for a possible inspiration). In this case, it doesn't make sense for them to double down on their pact at 3.
You can still do these narratives with subclass at 3. But they fit less comfortably with the mechanics.
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2024-01-02, 02:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2024-01-02, 03:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2019
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- Los Angeles, CA
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2024-01-02, 03:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2011
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- Waterdeep
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Roll for it 5e Houserules and Homebrew
Old Extended Signature
Awesome avatar by Ceika
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2024-01-02, 03:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2019
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- CA
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
I play primarily in homebrew games but I also DM games for my FLGS that use the AL rules. So while my individual groups may decide to adopt anywhere from some to none of the new rules, or even consider switching systems entirely, if I wish to continue DM'ing for public games and conventions, I'll likely have to adopt the entirety of 5.5.
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2024-01-02, 04:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
On the layoffs, I will say that two of the more prominent laid off employees, Dan Dillon and Eytan Bernstein, have said they plan to keep supporting their colleagues still on the inside and that they're excited about what's to come in the new books.
Neither do WotC's apparently.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2024-01-02, 04:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2015
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- The Netherlands
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
Yeah. More in general, in several cultural scenes (be it music or gaming) the downfall starts when so much money is made when the enthusiasts who made their living out of their hobby are bought by companies whose first and foremost interest is pleasing the shareholders and where the people in power have no love for the product. Often (though not always) better to switch to another independent product.
One more thing on the binders and why it might have been difficult to port it over to 5e: the 3.5 binder was for a large part based on / inspired by a real world book a few centuries old on sorcery and demonolgy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Le...mon#Ars_Goetia ) - that made it a bit more related to the occult than most D&D products (and even without that kind of stuff D&D has been accused in the past of leading to devil worship in the satanic panic of the 80's - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_panic ). That might be a reason designers or publishers are less enthusisastic for this particular mechanics and flavor.
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2024-01-02, 04:16 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2011
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- North Jersey
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
I refuse to buy more books from Hasbro after they treated their workers so terribly. My books will continue to function for my game, and I would rather go to a non-Hasbro system than reward their abuse of their employees.
Big Ups to Vrythas for making my Avi!
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2024-01-02, 06:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
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2024-01-02, 07:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2011
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- Waterdeep
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
Roll for it 5e Houserules and Homebrew
Old Extended Signature
Awesome avatar by Ceika
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2024-01-02, 10:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
If they did then there'd be no reason for them to change the level 1-2 experience. Clearly they're changing that because they play (or have play data from) those levels.
Eh, that didn't stop them from doing Vestige Pact warlocks back in 4e though. I think it's more that you can essentially fluff Binders using the existing pact magic framework just fine, using just about every pact except Celestial and Fiend.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2024-01-03, 12:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
Toph Pony avatar by Dirtytabs. Thanks!
"When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis
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2024-01-03, 12:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2015
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- Finland
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
Read again. I said Any other than 5th edition.
In other words, I refuse to call the edition a "5.5" or whatever, unless the devs call it that way. Is that better (note, english is only a tertiary language for me)?
On another note, this was the devs' intention from the start, so I seriously wonder why people insist calling it a half-edition upgrade or the next edition when it clearly was not intended as one. I don't care if that's what it seems to be. Offically it's still, for the time being, 5th edition, and that's what counts.Last edited by Arkhios; 2024-01-03 at 12:38 AM.
Please be mindful of what you say in public; sadly not all can handle sarcasm or The Internet Credibility.
My Homebrew:
Base Class: Warlord | Roguish Archetype: Inquisitor | Roguish Archetype: Thug | Primal Path: Rage Mage
Ongoing game & character:
Sajan Uttam, human Monk 6/Fist of Irori 3 (Legacy of Fire)
D&D/Pathfinder CV of sorts
3.0 since 2002
3.5 since 2003
4e since 2008
Pathfinder 1e since 2008
5e since 2014
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2024-01-03, 12:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
I'll call it just about anything except 6e (It's not changing enough to be 6e imo.) One, 1DnD, 5.5e, 5R, and 2024 5e are all fine in my book.
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2024-01-03, 12:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2015
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- Finland
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
5R is a new one for me. I could accept that, to be entirely honest.
But in all honesty, the game has changed quite a bit even before the debacle what was called OneD&D (I'm looking at you TCE's proficiency bonus based PC options) and even then people didn't make a distinction between 5th edition and some other version of 5th edition. The changes to be made to the base rulebooks are really quite small. A new subsystem such as bastions or weapon masteries could've been introduced in just about any supplement under 5th edition and it wouldn't have caused a fuss like this. But now that they're undergoing a series of fixes out in the open (as in, not behind closed doors) for the player's handbook and the rest, it's somehow different. I don't get it. I really don't.Please be mindful of what you say in public; sadly not all can handle sarcasm or The Internet Credibility.
My Homebrew:
Base Class: Warlord | Roguish Archetype: Inquisitor | Roguish Archetype: Thug | Primal Path: Rage Mage
Ongoing game & character:
Sajan Uttam, human Monk 6/Fist of Irori 3 (Legacy of Fire)
D&D/Pathfinder CV of sorts
3.0 since 2002
3.5 since 2003
4e since 2008
Pathfinder 1e since 2008
5e since 2014
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2024-01-03, 01:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2024-01-03, 02:32 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2018
Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
If I ever play a 5.5 game it will be purely because the local play group I enjoy playing with switched.
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2024-01-03, 04:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2015
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- The Netherlands
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
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2024-01-03, 06:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2014
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- providence
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2024-01-03, 08:55 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2015
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- Texas
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
I dislike a lot of the changes for violating the KISS principle.
The new weapons features: too fiddly.
The burden on the DM for keeping track of vex/topple/ etc for all of the weapons that various MM creatures use is not value added. (Vex in paricular I find to be too admin intensive). f
The simple "all attacks are magical for a monk" starting at level six is KISS personified. what D&Done has changed that to is a step backwards. (Some of the other monk changes are OK, but also increase the fiddeliness, and some features of the barbarian come on line way too late.
TBH, I like what they are doing with the Moon Druid, so far as of UA 8. I think I like how they have the star, moon, land and sea circles in terms of thematics. I hate what they did to the conjure animals spell, though. (The conjure celestial and woodland beings and fey are likewise changes that I find to be value reduced. The Tasha's summons spells were a much better attempt at getting a grip on summoning.
The only QOL improvement that I can get behind solidly is that Paladin and Ranger get their spell casting feature at level 1. (Have criticized various paladin nerfs elsewhere, not gonna resurrect that rant).
Something that I liked, from a thematic standpoint, was breaking up the spells into Divine, Arcane, and Primal.
Problem, is, they kept the schools so KISS is badly violated.
I posted the school balance problem vis a vis Primal, Divine, and Arcane (all nine levels) a while back - it illustrates what a mess they have made out of the magic system, een with the best of intentions.Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2024-01-03 at 08:59 AM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2024-01-03, 10:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2010
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- Where there be dragons
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
Weapon Mastery is a class feature, not an inherent property of weapons, so NPC statblocks won’t use them unless they are specifically called out as doing so. That said, I do hope that more monsters get similar riders on their attacks. In particular I hope that push effects become much more common.
The simple "all attacks are magical for a monk" starting at level six is KISS personified. what D&Done has changed that to is a step backwards.
TBH, I like what they are doing with the Moon Druid, so far as of UA 8. I think I like how they have the star, moon, land and sea circles in terms of thematics. I hate what they did to the conjure animals spell, though. (The conjure celestial and woodland beings and fey are likewise changes that I find to be value reduced. The Tasha's summons spells were a much better attempt at getting a grip on summoning.
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2024-01-03, 10:30 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2008
- Gender
Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
I did misread what you meant there, fair.
On that last though, two reasons: one, they did start this with a different name for it, One D&D. It was a bad name and dropping it is a good idea, but it was a clear, differentiating name. And two, there should be a different name because these are different things - that's the whole point of releasing new core books - and there will be a need to differentiate between them just to understand which we're talking about in conversation. Yes, the new books are just revisions to 5e's rules, but that's what makes 5.5e a natural option given past D&D naming conventions include 3.5e, the clearest point of comparison for what they're doing here. Even if they didn't want to use that naming convention for some reason, some other name should have been chosen - 5e Revised if you just want to be as basic and straightforward as possible, for example.
Instead, because they refuse to do that and are only using the year they came out to differentiate them, which is clunky, you're going to get fan nicknames like 5.5e, or people continuing to use One D&D despite WotC having dropped it.Last edited by Zevox; 2024-01-03 at 10:31 AM.
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2024-01-03, 10:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
I highly doubt every rando goblin and gnoll will get Weapon Mastery, so the DM won't need to track anything related to their weapons. They're warriors, not Fighters.
"Magic weapon/unarmed attacks do Force" is way more KISS than "sometimes your bludgeoning is resisted and sometimes it isn't, read every statblock that mentions bludgeoning resistance carefully, and repeat that process for piercing and slashing, but don't worry about spells they always count as magical, except when they're summoning something so not always."Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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