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2024-01-03, 11:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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2024-01-03, 12:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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2024-01-03, 12:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
Yeah sure probably. It's mostly compatible and there are few neat new features added to some of the classes. If have a gripe it's some subclass levels being moved but that's about it. To be honest, it would be weird to continue to play 3e when 3.5 came out and added a bunch of new content and rules, and I feel the same way about going from 5e to 5.5 or whatever. Most arguments I see against switching over are literal pedantry, misleading, or could be solved by moving a singular digit.
This. DM's aren't really in charge of keeping track of them. Most of the effects are player tracked (vex, nick), a normal effect (toppling), or happen immediately (cleave, graze). If your fighter player can't do the first, and you're not interested in tracking normal conditions in the games, there is always something easy like the latter effects.Last edited by Snowbluff; 2024-01-03 at 12:56 PM.
Avatar of Rudisplork Avatar of PC-dom and Slayer of the Internet. Extended sig
GitP Regulars as: Vestiges Spells Weapons Races Deities Feats Soulmelds/Veils
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2024-01-03, 02:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
They think every single monster with a weapon in their statblock (or even just most/many of them?) will be interacting with this system for some reason. Where that came from, I have no idea.
Agreed - and even if the new PHB doesn't have enough new stuff to justify switching over, they'll be releasing future splats based on its changes that do. At a minimum they'll need to translate the other four wizard subclasses soon after the PHB releases so people can bring their existing core characters over, and while they're doing that, they'll probably come out with new or remixed rogue subclasses that have cunning strike options of their own, they'll likely want to come out with new weapon mastery options eventually etc.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2024-01-03, 02:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
I'm sure they will work for some tables. At my table, the game is slow enough as is. I'm often running community games with large table sizes (6) and often new players. They need simplification, not additional conditions and effects to keep track of.
Last edited by Atranen; 2024-01-03 at 02:26 PM.
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2024-01-03, 03:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
Yeah, that's kind of where I'm coming from.
As a player I can take them or leave them, since (1) I pay attention and (2) I get into the game.
If I play in a 5.5 game and have a ranger, I'll certainly pick my weapons mastery with an eye toward tactical utility that fits my character theme. But I do not want to DM this next iteration.
I play with quite a few casual players who don't need added complexity or even want it.
For Psyren: nice try at a goalpost move on Monk magical attacks, not interested.Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2024-01-03 at 03:38 PM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2024-01-03, 03:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
The KISS rule was your goalpost, not mine
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2024-01-03, 03:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
The KISS solution is to do away with resistance to nonmagical attacks entirely, except when it is highly thematic. For example, werewolves should be weak to silver, and horcruxes can have a small list of weaknesses.
But does every high CR monster need this? Does it add anything to the narrative? It could, with a proper DM and a game where these creatures are major threats, not encounter #2...but this rarely manifests ime. In practice, the DM has to halve a bunch of numbers for no good reason.
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2024-01-03, 03:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
It's my criterion based on their 2014 design goals for the basic game engine, and I don't like how they have departed from it. (And they departed from it about the time Tasha's came out, so this isn't new to D&Done).
As to the monk attacks, current 5e is KISS: once you are level six, all attacks are magical and that more or less ends "is it resistant/immune?" during combat damage resolution. Much simpler than what they are doing with "Oh, yeah, force damage as a rider" currently.
Not gonna disagree. But they did the resistance thing to get away from the DR fiddly bit in 3.x, right?But does every high CR monster need this?
Does it add anything to the narrative? It could, with a proper DM and a game where these creatures are major threats, not encounter #2...but this rarely manifests ime. In practice, the DM has to halve a bunch of numbers for no good reason.
I have gotten used to it, but I also need to do more prep each time I pull out a new monster for the party do interact with.Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2024-01-04 at 10:58 PM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2024-01-03, 04:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2016
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
Rogue Equivalent Damage calculator, now prettier and more configurable!
5e Monster Data Sheet--vital statistics for all 693 MM, Volo's, and now MToF monsters: Updated!
NIH system 5e fork, very much WIP. Base github repo.
NIH System PDF Up to date main-branch build version.
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2024-01-03, 04:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2005
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- Albuquerque, NM
Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
I could get behind the 2024 books being officially called "The 50th Anniversary 5th Edition, Remastered". (Be even niftier if they managed to put a tiny 'zero' between 5 and t in 5th.)
I would love it if they remastered every edition for the 50th Anniversary... but that's a lot of work (and unless they've been secretly working on it outside our purview, way too late in the game for it to occur now)... maybe for the 100th... but I doubt I'll live to 103 to see it!Trollbait extraordinaire
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2024-01-03, 06:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2023
Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
Rage use to be a 3.5 spell, please don't remind WotC.
Paladins are the ones kicked out of the church for being too extreme but the deities are like "yeah, like, the paladin totally gets it!" but like the deity can't let everyone know this (might lose followers) so they secretly give the Paladin powers but mask it as if the Paladin just has to believe in themselves a whoooole bunch (basically, Green Lanterns).
Paladin (Subclass)
Requirement: (Any Class)
Special: Must have been kicked out of a church for being too extreme (yes, shredding on a skateboard counts).
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2024-01-03, 06:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
Then the already-present 5e issue with "a couple hundred mundane low-level archers can kill literally everything they can hit" gets even more noticeable. I am already very skeptical about 5e's implementation of resistance (honestly, resistance 5, 10 or 20 isn't hard and is about the same complexity as "divide by half", the only issue with it is that 5e doesn't scale damage on hit properly, so not having a magic weapon would shut some people down hard), and that would make things even worse, with HP being even more of a singular indicator of how hard a thing is to kill.
3.5 also used to have a spell that let you get Fighter bonus feats for a while (something about heroism, IIRC), and Divine Power that got you full BAB, and other stuff. And Polymorph is pretty much beefed-up Wild Shape. Most things that existed in 3.5 had a spell that would let you borrow it, or at least an approximation of it.
And that's the issue with D&D magic - every spell is basically a class feature, some are just less subtle about it.Last edited by Ignimortis; 2024-01-03 at 06:10 PM.
Elezen Dark Knight avatar by Linklele
Favourite classes: Beguiler, Scout, Warblade, 3.5 Warlock, Harbinger (PF:PoW).
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2024-01-03, 06:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2023
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2024-01-03, 06:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2023
Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
It wouldn't be too bad if the Wizard wasn't allowed to be every type of wizard all at once (because the subclasses are mere blips to them). They would have some sort of limiter to where they couldn't just have all those spells.
If 5.5 said that Wizards now only know a number of spell schools equal to their proficiency bonus (cantrips don't count) or gave us a half-caster wizard (who got class features a la the Warmage, Beguiler, and Dread Necromancer) I would be rather interested in what they were doing.
It's really telling how the Fighter and Wizard are two sides of the same "generic class" coin and yet the fighter gets to know maybe two fighting styles and honestly can only use one effectively unless they went Dex or whatever. Meanwhile the Wizard can just cast any magic spell ever.
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2024-01-03, 06:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
Agreed on all points.
I've posted about this a few times, but if Fighter was designed the same way Wizard was, Eldritch Knight would be a full caster that maybe couldn't have Illusion/Enchantment spells but otherwise would perform as a subclass-less Wizard, and all Fighters would be able to make Sneak Attacks, have Expertise in several skills, Rage, fight unarmed as well as with a Longsword, etc - just not all at once, but every morning they'd be able to choose most of that.
Meanwhile if Wizard was designed the same way Fighter is, they'd know three cantrips, one spell per spell level (which would also require spell level/3 rounded down previously known spells of the same school), and would not be able to add spells from scrolls ("learning a spell? why would you be able to do that, if Fighters can't learn a new fighting style by spending some gold and time?").
Re: thread, I see no reason to switch. It's still 5e with all of its' issues, and it's not getting fixes, it's getting bandaids at best.Last edited by Ignimortis; 2024-01-03 at 06:37 PM.
Elezen Dark Knight avatar by Linklele
Favourite classes: Beguiler, Scout, Warblade, 3.5 Warlock, Harbinger (PF:PoW).
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2024-01-03, 06:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2023
Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
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2024-01-03, 07:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
But it doesn't end it. If you search for monsters that are resistant to bludgeoning currently, you'll find both magical and nonmagical bludgeoning in that set, and it's even worse if you're not using DDB and trying to do so via PDF. It's worse if you're a Moon Druid because you have four more variations to look through. Meanwhile Force and Radiant resistance have no such demarcation to worry about.
But that's exactly what they're doing. Now high level monsters can simply be resistant to bludgeoning or piercing, and you then switch to Force or Radiant. Scanning statblocks for those is much easier and faster.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2024-01-03, 07:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
Isn't the point of bounded accuracy that low level enemies remain a threat? A few hundred low level archers should be able to kill everything they can hit, under that system. Maybe bounded accuracy is the wrong choice for epic level D&D.
Agree that the DR system from 3.5 is easier. Subtraction vs division.
"do away with resistance to nonmagical attacks entirely, except when it is highly thematic" is what I wrote. That is not exactly what they are doing.
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2024-01-03, 07:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2024-01-04, 12:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
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2024-01-04, 12:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2019
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2024-01-04, 01:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2016
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- Corvallis, OR
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
Rogue Equivalent Damage calculator, now prettier and more configurable!
5e Monster Data Sheet--vital statistics for all 693 MM, Volo's, and now MToF monsters: Updated!
NIH system 5e fork, very much WIP. Base github repo.
NIH System PDF Up to date main-branch build version.
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2024-01-04, 02:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2015
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
My general idea of how a dragon should function starts at Smaug vs. the entirety of Lonely Mountain dwarves, then Dale, and eventually Lake-town. It is clear that numbers alone cannot win against this sort of creature. And it is also said that Smaug was not the mightiest dragon to ever live, far from it. 5e does not represent the average dragon in a similar way.
So yes, I'd say that bounded accuracy is the wrong choice for not only epic level D&D, but level 13+ D&D even.
When we're talking about normal creatures that are perfectly killable by sticking them full of steel, like minotaurs or hill giants? Sure. When we're talking about old powerful dragons, demon generals and lords, high elemental forces? I'd disagree.
For me, it means that the setting doesn't need to have too many high-level threats. If there's a hundred ancient dragons out there, and most of them are malicious, then dealing with one is rather diminished compared to if there was only one or two, and having them be preoccupied enough to not cause problems until it's time for them to do so is also more plausible.Last edited by Ignimortis; 2024-01-04 at 03:42 AM.
Elezen Dark Knight avatar by Linklele
Favourite classes: Beguiler, Scout, Warblade, 3.5 Warlock, Harbinger (PF:PoW).
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2024-01-04, 03:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2015
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
Why though? If a low-level archer can shoot at a powerful creature from 150 feet or farther away, why should they be any less effective than a heroic individual using an exactly same weapon, if they know how to use said weapon and can aim to hit. Why would the weapon be any different for different users?
Last edited by Arkhios; 2024-01-04 at 03:14 AM.
Please be mindful of what you say in public; sadly not all can handle sarcasm or The Internet Credibility.
My Homebrew:
Base Class: Warlord | Roguish Archetype: Inquisitor | Roguish Archetype: Thug | Primal Path: Rage Mage
Ongoing game & character:
Sajan Uttam, human Monk 6/Fist of Irori 3 (Legacy of Fire)
D&D/Pathfinder CV of sorts
3.0 since 2002
3.5 since 2003
4e since 2008
Pathfinder 1e since 2008
5e since 2014
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2024-01-04, 03:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
If said weapon is non-magical and the heroic individual does not have any special force behind him (even if it would be just their heroic fate making their blows strike true and hard where a lesser man would miss or fail to deal any damage)? Nothing should be different. As 5e does it, a level 20 Fighter just shoots faster and slightly (emphasis on slightly) more accurately than a CR1/8 guardsman, or a CR3 Archer.
However, I do believe that higher-level characters have to have something along those lines (being destined for great things, unnatural luck, etc), even if they lack explicit superhuman powers. And it'd be even better if the game just acknowledged that a level 11+ character can at the very least make problems for things that can threaten kingdoms or even worlds, through sheer personal power.Last edited by Ignimortis; 2024-01-04 at 03:16 AM.
Elezen Dark Knight avatar by Linklele
Favourite classes: Beguiler, Scout, Warblade, 3.5 Warlock, Harbinger (PF:PoW).
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2024-01-04, 04:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2015
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- Finland
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
Please be mindful of what you say in public; sadly not all can handle sarcasm or The Internet Credibility.
My Homebrew:
Base Class: Warlord | Roguish Archetype: Inquisitor | Roguish Archetype: Thug | Primal Path: Rage Mage
Ongoing game & character:
Sajan Uttam, human Monk 6/Fist of Irori 3 (Legacy of Fire)
D&D/Pathfinder CV of sorts
3.0 since 2002
3.5 since 2003
4e since 2008
Pathfinder 1e since 2008
5e since 2014
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2024-01-04, 09:46 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2005
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- Albuquerque, NM
Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
What class abilities does a non-EK Fighter have at 11+ that negates the need for magical weapons?
Say, a ghost wanders into a 12th level Battlemaster's house and attacks him in his sleep. All the Fighter's gear is downstairs. So, the dude is basically fighting barehanded in his skivvies, trying to make it downstairs to his gear. He's slapping it 3 times a round for (1+Str mod)/2... fun!Trollbait extraordinaire
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2024-01-04, 09:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2015
Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
This.
For me, I'll wait to see how they treat the paladin in the 2024 PHB. If they print that atrocious excuse for smite that was in the UA, I won't be buying it. If smite is similar to the 2014 version (or the fix Treantmonk proposed), I'll likely buy the 2024 PHB.Insert Clever Signature Here
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2024-01-04, 09:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: Who's gonna switch to 5.5, and why?
Well, he's doing three times the amount of damage that a commoner would be doing, even without magical weapons, and even if that commoner was a body builder or something. More likely, the fighter is dealing something like 9 damage a round assuming all attacks connect, compared to the commoner's... 1.
Also he doesnt die in the first round due to being attacked, so theres that.
But lets turn that around. Lets say an owlbear wanders into the home of a 12th level wizard. He spent all his spell slots earlier in the day and is just settling down for a nap. What's he going to do, bonk it on the head for 1d8 bludgeoning damage once a round?
Its a silly question, right?“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”