Will somebody arrive mid-fight to seize The Gate?

[KorvinStarmast]

Not sure the remainder of the Legion gives two Copper pieces about a thematically appropriate end. And Tarquin’s authority is much diminished by managing to have an actual Legion of the army kind get beaten 6 by misfits who were already worn out from a previous engagement.

And Amun Zora, Ian, et al have a revenge mission going that ought to keep them busy.

[gbaji]

Will somebody arrive mid-fight to seize The Gate?

Short answer: no, unless you refer to the IFCC showing up once The Order and Team Evil commence combat.
Here is my estimate on how IFCC does that: the three fiends have a link to V provided by the soul splice event and their ability to call V back two more times.
That link permits them to intercede on the mortal plane wherever V is.
I have no idea if D&D 3.5 has a mechanic like this, but it seems a heck of a lot less complicated, as magic goes, than the soul splice was.

Yeah. I also believe something like this will happen. The IFCC clearly has some sort of plan, and that plan kinda has to happen at some point during/before the resolution of whatever conflict occurs between the Order and Team Evil, presumably right in front of or near to, the gate itself. How exactly that happens, is up for debate, but I also kinda agree that while I don't think they or their operatives could just travel directly into the Final Dungeon and mess with the gate willy-nilly, the connection with V will <magic magic> allow them to intervene in some way.

They are devils/demons/whatevers, right? While we can assume that the directly stated terms and restrictions they promised to V can't be broken, there's nothing to prevent them having additional capabilities that they just didn't bother to state. Like, say... that when taking V for X period of time, they can gate in/out other allies to the same location if needed or desired. If they can pull V from that location and protect Vs body while it's being held, they must also be able to do other things at that same location as well. Call it a convenient side effect, but this would presumably also allow them to target the same location to gate in other things as well.


I once used a similar trick to slip in an evil chaos deity avatar into what was otherwise a "fair fight" conflict between two competing good/evil teams of adventures in a game I ran (the PCs were "good", while my NPC were evil of course). One of the evil team was a necromancer who dabbled in Cthulhu style magic, and they needed to slow down the good teams ship, so he made a deal. In return for his body/soul upon his death, said chaos deity tossed a pretty decent sized Shoggoth at the hero's ship. It did slow them down a bit (but not enough as it turned out), and the adventurers just kinda shrugged it off and didn't give it another thought. Then, much later, at the final showdown, inside a heavily magicallly sealed tomb (as in the gods themselves could not access it, but merely watch), they're fighting the evil team for control of the super powerful prize (remnant of a dead deity's soul), the party's powerful sorceress faces off against the evil necromancer and manages to kill him, only for his body to contort and shift and grow into a giant avatar of Nyarlathotep (the bloody tounge avatar for anyone interested). To say things took a sharp left turn at that point was an understatement.

But yeah, getting one of the participants in a conflict like this to make some kind of deal that allows you to interact with their body/soul/whatever is a method to allow you to gain access to some location you might otherwise be blocked off from. I'd totally accept that as a rationale for the IFCC sending folks into the Final Dungeon. My personal prediction is that the IFCC has a plan to do <something> (drain souls into the vessel, using the artifact?), but they need the gods to destroy the world for this to work. So they are manipulating the conflict between TE and the Order to ensure that all of the gates are destroyed. If either side "wins" they lose. Which would make the deal with V really about gaining access when/where they need it, so as to maximize their odds of winning. You'll note that they used their first time period specifically to prevent V from warning Roy not to destroy the gate. So it's pretty clear that they wanted that gate destroyed at least. The've also previously stated that they wanted the conflict, and were happy that V's actions under the splice lit a fire under TE's butts and got them moving again. So that seems to be a reasonable conclusion (details on why/how are still fuzzy though).

[dtilque]

Redcloak's Niece, working with a Half-Celestial Hailey's Mom, Guy With a Halberd, and an Eastern-undead Miko.

Nah. Redcloak's Niece and Haley's cousin Jiminy.

[Metastachydium]

Nah. Redcloak's Niece and Haley's cousin Jiminy.

No-no-no, we're talking antagonists, it has to be Haley's cousin Sheila.

[dtilque]

No-no-no, we're talking antagonists, it has to be Haley's cousin Sheila.

But Jiminy's an antagonist. He prevented Roy from obtaining a useful weapon.

[Metastachydium]

But Jiminy's an antagonist. He prevented Roy from obtaining a useful weapon.

I'd personally argue that in the end, Roy prevented Roy from obtaining a useful weapon, but okay, fine. Let it be Haley's cousins all the way!

[Precure]

Wait, why do you expect Redcloak's niece to be a villain?

[Metastachydium]

Wait, why do you expect Redcloak's niece to be a villain?

She's a Goblin and they are Evil. Also, she's probably the Snarl.

[Precure]

She's a Goblin and they are Evil. Also, she's probably the Snarl.

Sounds reasonable enough.

[TRH]

That one hydra escapes its goblin fast food chain captors and comes for revenge bearing like 200 heads now.

[RatElemental]

That one hydra escapes its goblin fast food chain captors and comes for revenge bearing like 200 heads now.

The hydra can't get enough blood to any of its heads, but perhaps Goblin Dan will have made enough gold to raise an army and come knocking to protect his business interests

[brian 333]

Team Order = The Vector Legion,
Team Evil = Xykon, RC, & Co.,
Team Good = The Order of the Stick, (nominally,)

So, who is Team Chaos? Or Team Neutral, for that matter?

[Blue Dragon]

A) You wanted least likely, I gave you least likely. B) The shadowdancer and his companion aren't dead. They escaped through a shadow. To where, if there are no other shadows? No one can say. That's what makes them unlikely.

True. I apologize.

[dtilque]

Or Team Neutral, for that matter?

The bounty hunters. Well, before they joined up with some Good people in the revolution.

[Metastachydium]

The bounty hunters. Well, before they joined up with some Good people in the revolution.

I mean, the Order's always had a Neutral and an Evil member; the Monster never really was Evil; and I'm basically certain Jacinda isn't Lawful and Miron doesn't feel like that either.

So, who is Team Chaos? Or Team Neutral, for that matter?

I'd probably go with a small, but happy family and teenage girls, respectively.

[KorvinStarmast]

MitD is Team Chaos.

[Precure]

The snarl is Team Chaos.

[Unoriginal]

Team Order = The Vector Legion

The Vector Legion isn't Team Order.

At best they're Team Evil-Filling-Its-Pockets-Through-Tyranny.

[gbaji]

I think trying to wedge each team into some sort of alignment system isn't a supported assumption.

[brian 333]

I think trying to wedge each team into some sort of alignment system isn't a supported assumption.

I think you are correct. It wasn't a great joke, but it was fun.

[Blue Dragon]

Will somebody arrive mid-fight to seize The Gate? Short answer: no, unless you refer to the IFCC showing up once The Order and Team Evil commence combat.

No, IFCC will not interfer directly, this is a fact.

What I was trying to do with the post was narrowing down the possibility of Vector Legion showing up to "one in a million", because Tarquin's foreshadowing back in "Raiders of the Lost Plot Arc" wasn't properly fullfilled, but boy did I formulate the question badly.

Now, I know that the author pulled a Moore and doesn't want to use Tarquin anymore and even then his main contribution was mostly cut out loose threads (Nale,Thog,Zzdrit), that he didn't want pulling the narrative back but there is a lot of story forward and even cutting the story to show this or that "team" still there is a lot of things to happen.

So I think it's reasonable that somebody can arrive near the end of the not-so-final confrontation between Xykon and Roy.

And I think that will be Laurin and the others members from the Vector Legion.

[gbaji]

No, IFCC will not interfer directly, this is a fact.

That's an oddly firm position to take, given that the IFCC is literally the only group left on the board with a stated objectve to meddle with whatever is going down with the gates (and has meddled in the past by ensuring the destruction of Girard's gate), and the only group who's "plan" hasn't yet been fully revealed (but has strongly been foreshadowed). Would be kinda silly to have all this foreshadowing of their actions involving Girard's gate, talk about the need to keep the conflict between TE and the Order going, talk about an "artifact" and a "vessel", and even talk about "getting their minions hands dirty", and not have them actually do anything at the Final Gate at all.

I mean, I guess we could say "not interfere directly" means that they aren't physically going to be there maybe, but I'd lay stong odds that whatever interferrence does happen, will be the direct result of their actions and at their direction. Otherwise, their entire existence in the story, is left as a dangling plot element that served no purpose. And I don't think Rich is going to do that.

What I was trying to do with the post was narrowing down the possibility of Vector Legion showing up to "one in a million", because Tarquin's foreshadowing back in "Raiders of the Lost Plot Arc" wasn't properly fullfilled, but boy did I formulate the question badly.

Now, I know that the author pulled a Moore and doesn't want to use Tarquin anymore and even then his main contribution was mostly cut out loose threads (Nale,Thog,Zzdrit), that he didn't want pulling the narrative back but there is a lot of story forward and even cutting the story to show this or that "team" still there is a lot of things to happen.

I get that some people think this, but the reality is that there is literally nothing left to tell in terms of story involving the Vector Legion. I mean, maybe some denoument stuff at the end, but certainly nothing directly involving the Final Gate.

Only add more toppings to the pizza if it makes it taste better. The VL is definitely a topping that isn't going to add anything at all.

So I think it's reasonable that somebody can arrive near the end of the not-so-final confrontation between Xykon and Roy.

And I think that will be Laurin and the others members from the Vector Legion.

Why?

Maybe instead of asking other people to discuss what they think might happen and why, you spend some time saying what you think will happen, and why you think it'll happen.

Aside from the whole "they are in a sealed dungeon, blocking all forms of teleportation magic, which requires a sequence of steps to gain access to that this group has not gone through", there's also the question of "they add nothing to the story by having them show up". Again though, that's just my personal opinion. If you think otherwise, please post why you think this would make the story better to have the VL show up.

[Blue Dragon]

That's an oddly firm position to take, given that the IFCC is literally the only group left on the board with a stated objectve to meddle with whatever is going down with the gates (and has meddled in the past by ensuring the destruction of Girard's gate), and the only group who's "plan" hasn't yet been fully revealed (but has strongly been foreshadowed). Would be kinda silly to have all this foreshadowing of their actions involving Girard's gate, talk about the need to keep the conflict between TE and the Order going, talk about an "artifact" and a "vessel", and even talk about "getting their minions hands dirty", and not have them actually do anything at the Final Gate at all.

I mean, I guess we could say "not interfere directly" means that they aren't physically going to be there maybe, but I'd lay stong odds that whatever interferrence does happen, will be the direct result of their actions and at their direction. Otherwise, their entire existence in the story, is left as a dangling plot element that served no purpose. And I don't think Rich is going to do that.



I get that some people think this, but the reality is that there is literally nothing left to tell in terms of story involving the Vector Legion. I mean, maybe some denoument stuff at the end, but certainly nothing directly involving the Final Gate.

Only add more toppings to the pizza if it makes it taste better. The VL is definitely a topping that isn't going to add anything at all.



Why?

Maybe instead of asking other people to discuss what they think might happen and why, you spend some time saying what you think will happen, and why you think it'll happen.

Aside from the whole "they are in a sealed dungeon, blocking all forms of teleportation magic, which requires a sequence of steps to gain access to that this group has not gone through", there's also the question of "they add nothing to the story by having them show up". Again though, that's just my personal opinion. If you think otherwise, please post why you think this would make the story better to have the VL show up.

1. Yes, I was specifically saying that they will not be there physically.
2. There is enough story to show Laurin and Miron in a cutaway.
3. I don't think that would make the story better, I am just specullating a little. And even if I did, it wouldn't matter, The Order of the Stick is not being write by vote or suggestions.

[KorvinStarmast]

And I think that will be Laurin and the others members from the Vector Legion.

Interesting idea, but I don't see how either of them can satisfy the "what's in it for me" question by showing up at Kraagor's gate.

[Blue Dragon]

Interesting idea, but I don't see how either of them can satisfy the "what's in it for me" question by showing up at Kraagor's gate.

True, Laurin already owns the Great Desert riff and that's a lot! But I don't know what an epic Psion can discover after diving her mind in the rift as she did.

Truth is that I am betting on some kind of interference simply because there is still a lot of strips ahead and the comic doesn't update fast enough for our (my daughter and I) taste.

[Ginasius]

That TDO has never directly communicated or interacted with RedCloak is probably going to be significant at some point.

RC would likely rationalise it away as a trick or deception if he tried

I am not an expert on D&D rules but I believe that a god can deny powers to a cleric who is expressly acting against his wishes.

If TDO denies Redcloack powers he will not be able to initiate the Ritual.

[KorvinStarmast]

I am not an expert on D&D rules but I believe that a god can deny powers to a cleric who is expressly acting against his wishes.

If TDO denies Redcloack powers he will not be able to initiate the Ritual.

Doesn't the cloak itself connect Redcloak to TDO? It's an artifact, and it is explicitly a thing "of" TDO.

[gbaji]

Doesn't the cloak itself connect Redcloak to TDO? It's an artifact, and it is explicitly a thing "of" TDO.

Well, that and I would tend to interpret that as a deity refusing to provide spells to a cleric who has already taken an act that betrayed the deity in some direct and meaningful way. The problem here is that the "act of betrayal" would be using a single 9th level spell slot to assist the other gods in using the fourth quiddity to seal the rifts. Once that's done, TDO coiuld refuse to re-fill that spell slot the next day, but could not do anything about it ahead of time.

I suppose TDO could put a damper on continuing to seal other rifts, but it seems to me that, unless he's a complete idiot (and I"m not saying he's not!), it would seem to be that at the point where your high priest has already decided to abandon your "Plan" and go in another direction, and if that direction actuall gains TDO some pretty serious stuff, I suspect he'll just go along with it.

Remember that the entire stated purpose of "The Plan" was to use the threat of the snarl to negotiate for better conditions and power/position for goblinkind in the world. So... if Redcloak gets those same concesssions from the other gods, by switching from "threaten them with the snarl" to "help them seal the rifts", that's Mission Accomplished, as far as TDO is concerned. Assuming that we've been told the truth about why TDO is actually doing all of this, of course. He's literally getting everything he likely would ever be able to get anyway.


Um... I'll add here that I don't think any of this will actually happen this way (cause, you know, someone will arrive in the middle of this and throw a wrench into the whole thing). But, if it did...

[Kardwill]

The Dark Ones approbation of a change of plan might also depend if it was His plan (Sent by TDO to RC via divine revelation. Doubtful since RC never had direct communication from his god), or Redcloak's plan (sent by RC to TDO during prayer). The Dark One is less likely to disapprove initiatives deviating from the Plan if the Plan was already Redcloak's pet project to begin with, and I think it is. Redcloak wouldn't be so desperately clinging to his "I am right, and everything will be worth it in the end" mindset if it wasn't his idea (and personal responsibility) to begin with.

I could be wrong, though. It's been a long time since I read some of the material, like "start of darkness", so maybe it's already been spelled out.

[Tzardok]

The Dark Ones approbation of a change of plan might also depend if it was His plan (Sent by TDO to RC via divine revelation. Doubtful since RC never had direct communication from his god), or Redcloak's plan (sent by RC to TDO during prayer). The Dark One is less likely to disapprove initiatives deviating from the Plan if the Plan was already Redcloak's pet project to begin with, and I think it is. Redcloak wouldn't be so desperately clinging to his "I am right, and everything will be worth it in the end" mindset if it wasn't his idea (and personal responsibility) to begin with.

I could be wrong, though. It's been a long time since I read some of the material, like "start of darkness", so maybe it's already been spelled out.

In Start of Darkness, Redcloak becomes aware of the plan the moment he puts on the Crimson Mantle. The Plan was is the work of the Dark One, and his prior highpriests already worked for it.