Will somebody arrive mid-fight to seize The Gate?

[Grendelkin]

Hadn't Redcloak's master more or less given up on the Plan in favour of doing what should have been his major job, i.e., shepherding the goblin people? I thought that was why he was in a minor goblin village, training new clerics, and why he expected so much from young Redcloak when all he wanted out of life was to serve his people.

[KorvinStarmast]

No, IFCC will not interfer directly, this is a fact.

I find no basis for this position. You may end up being correct, but at this point it's a guess or an assumption.

The IFCC have already interfered twice:
First: to soul splice V.
That interference created conflict between V and Xykon in the vicinity of a gate.
Causing trouble near the gates seems to be embedded in their plans.

Second: to pull V out of the pyramid at a critical time, which led to a gate's destruction.
Again, their interference was tied to 'things happening in the vicinity of a gate" ... and the last remaining gate is Kraagor's.

I thus feel that "IFCC interferes while there is a serious brawl going on near the gate (Team Evil and Order)" is a very likely occurrence. They may interfere slightly before that (as in BRitF before Xykon could get to the gate) to create difficulty for the Order and Xykon in dealing with the last gate. (The wild card in this case is, to me, MitD).

So I think it's reasonable that somebody can arrive near the end of the not-so-final confrontation between Xykon and Roy.

Yes. The foreshadowing in strip 1183 suggests to me that it will be the IFCC.

While I am interested in seeing just what it was that Laurin beheld what got her attention before Miron saved her, I am not sure that detail will end up being revealed .... until and unless Rich chooses to do a big reveal about that world within in the Rift. That reveal trikes me as having a very high probability.
The readers' chains will no longer be jerked (see Belkar's remarks in strip 0900) when that reveal takes place.

I still think that - on the basis of Thor's big reveal on how many millions or billions of worlds have been made and lost over time - the Snarl has learned over time from his jailers how to make a world. (1)
Unlike the Snarl's destruction of all of those previous worlds, the world inside the Rift is the Snarl's creation.
The Fiends don't know about that world, or didn't. Thor and Odin didn't know about that world, but got a hint of it in Durkon's farewell remarks before his last resurrection.
The reveal on that ought to shake up the cosmos a bit.

--------------------------

{1} This might be a variation on the "million monkeys with typewriters eventually coming up with Shakespeare" or it might be something else.

[Kardwill]

The Fiends don't know about that world, or didn't.

They didn't seem surprised when Blackwing mentioned the "planet in the rift" in #903. And it's likely they heard him, since they gaged both V and BW to stop their speculations.

It's difficult to see what the IFCC is after. It looks like they want the world undone, but on the other hand they have apparently nothing to gain from it : If the Snarl gets out, it will destroys souls that are their nourishment ; and if the gods rebuild the world, the outsiders will be "reset", so their plots will disappear with their memories.

All I know about their plot is that
a - it involves "destructive, unnecessary conflict" at the gates, from which neither the Order nor Xykon will emerge victorious
b - somehow, the fact that it will "bring down the gods of good" is "technically true", and the slaughter of a few hundred Good dragons will be trivial if the plan succeeds. (#668)
c - Hel's plan of destroying the world was "the gods doing their work" (#1183)
d - they act mostly by putting pawns on every team they can to foster conflict, but have decided to "roll up their sleeves and get their minions' hands dirty", meaning they will take more direct action for the last gate.
e - Their end-run plan involves an artefact, and a "vessel" prepared by Sabine

I think BW's speculation has merit : The IFCC is plotting against the gods, and pretty confident about their chances to win, or at least create a slaughter of mythologic proportions. Following the established pattern of destruction/creation would just reestablish a new status-quo and gain them nothing, so they need something the gods aren't aware of to break or change the cycle. A plan revolving around the planet (or around any other unknown property of the rifts and/or the Snarl) would blindside the gods.

[Tubercular Ox]

a - it involves "destructive, unnecessary conflict" at the gates, from which neither the Order nor Xykon will emerge victorious
b - somehow, the fact that it will "bring down the gods of good" is "technically true", and the slaughter of a few hundred Good dragons will be trivial if the plan succeeds. (#668)
c - Hel's plan of destroying the world was "the gods doing their work" (#1183)
d - they act mostly by putting pawns on every team they can to foster conflict, but have decided to "roll up their sleeves and get their minions' hands dirty", meaning they will take more direct action for the last gate.
e - Their end-run plan involves an artefact, and a "vessel" prepared by Sabine

f - They conceived their plan after Sabine reported to them the story told by Shojo to Nale, where they learned the Snarl was born from deific frustration and hostility and the gods were vulnerable to the Snarl's attacks more than a mortal of the same level would be.

EDIT: Since when have I been shy about expressing opinions?

a - If the observing gods are torn between destroying the world to save souls and keeping it going to hang on to The Dark One's quiddity, there will be conflict. Enough conflict could create another Snarl, hopefully a smaller, more easily controlled one.
b - If the fiends have an assassin with God Bane claws to threaten them with, the good gods will never get to make their own decisions ever again.
c - Hel's plan of using the no-backsies rule to guarantee her ascension was likely to create a contingent of gods who were prepared to fight over the no-backsies rule. Conflict.
d - this seems plan-independent.
e - I'm clueless what this means, but because the fiends talk about V's body as a vessel, I have lots of crazy ideas.

[The MunchKING]

Hadn't Redcloak's master more or less given up on the Plan in favour of doing what should have been his major job, i.e., shepherding the goblin people? I thought that was why he was in a minor goblin village, training new clerics, and why he expected so much from young Redcloak when all he wanted out of life was to serve his people.

I mean it could be he was training up a successor/looking for a Golin Arcane Caster to do the Plan with.

f - They conceived their plan after Sabine reported to them the story told by Shojo to Nale, where they learned the Snarl was born from deific frustration and hostility and the gods were vulnerable to the Snarl's attacks more than a mortal of the same level would be.

Oooh, what if their plan is to cause ENOUGH Chaos and fighting that someone will level up to Snarl-killing levels? And then with the power/legend and belief that comes from slaying a Pantheon-killing over-being that was greater than all the Gods, they hop their champion will become a New Super-God, perferably one Evil and willing to kill/take out a few of the Good Gods.

[Peelee]

And then with the power/legend and belief that comes from slaying a Pantheon-killing over-being that was greater than all the Gods,

The legend and belief that comes from slaying something virtually nobody even knows exists?

[The MunchKING]

The legend and belief that comes from slaying something virtually nobody even knows exists?

Yeah, I assumed the Champion would tell everyone at some point or another.

EDIT: That that's what he's training for I mean, not after the fact trying to fill in the narrative.

[Kish]

In the extremely unlikely hypothetical where an evil-aligned goblin champion had enough sheer power to reliably destroy the Snarl, it would probably be trivial to drag the Snarl into the world first, and maybe let it destroy a continent so that the rest of the world understood the extent of the threat before destroying it.

(...Even easier to just plain conquer the world; this sounds like a Nale plan.)

[Peelee]

Yeah, I assumed the Champion would tell everyone at some point or another.

EDIT: That that's what he's training for I mean, not after the fact trying to fill in the narrative.

Fair point. Bytheway, I've been meaning to tell you, I'm training to defeat a bunch of aliens that sre going to destroy the planet. Like, a whole fleet.

[The MunchKING]

Fair point. Bytheway, I've been meaning to tell you, I've defeated a bunch of aliens that were going to destroy the planet. Like, a whole fleet. Got em all myself.

That would put you up there with Laharl then.

[gbaji]

Oooh, what if their plan is to cause ENOUGH Chaos and fighting that someone will level up to Snarl-killing levels? And then with the power/legend and belief that comes from slaying a Pantheon-killing over-being that was greater than all the Gods, they hop their champion will become a New Super-God, perferably one Evil and willing to kill/take out a few of the Good Gods.

How does that benefit them though? They are high power outer planes creatures. but still just basically aspects of those planes and bound to them. They already serve whatever divine powers that exist and have influence over their respective planes, so how does plotting to create one even more powerful (evil) deity for them to serve under make any real difference to them?

I don't think they'd do what they are doing, and risk what they are risking if the payoff didn't put themselves in a position of power over the gods in some way. Nothing else makes any sense.

We know for a fact that Hel's plan would have served their plans as well, if the gods had voted to destroy the world. But if the gods destroy the world, the next step in the process is "wipe/reset all of the outer planes beings". Which means they cease to exist as they are now. Any plan they are working on must include a way to avoid that, and given the relative power/position of outer planes beings to the gods, there's literally no way for them to do that without completely upsetting that power dynamic.

The specifics of their plan are up in the air, but it must involve some way of empowering them so that they are no longer simply manifestations of planes that the gods can modify and manipulate at will *and* it must allow for their long term survival in some way. I'm somewhat of a fan of the theory that they've found some way to redirect all of the divine/creative energy involved in making the prime material plane, so that they can use it themselves, both to sustain themselves, and to be the ones to actually create the next world (or something similar). Why settle for making someone else the uber god, with them as loyal lackeys, when they can literally create a new world where they are the only ones involved in its creation, and they can effectively "write out" the rest of the gods. With no one to worship them, the old gods will fade away, while the fiends will gain all the power for themselves.

Seems like a bold enough plan to me.


I do also believe that things aren't actually going to play out this way, and a good portion of that will be due to the nature of the snarl not being (or no longer being) what anyone thinks. I tend to agree with the theory that over all of that time, it has evolved and become more or less its own deity creating its own material plane (and world) within its portion of reality. I think that in the process of the IFCC causing the final gate to be destroyed, the Order will be pulled through the rift and encounter the world within (and the snarl as well). I think that the snarl will be as unaware of what exists outside of its realm as the gods are of what exists within it, and will see the rifts as as much of a problem for it as the gods see them for their "side" of things. I suspect there will be some sort of resolution where the snarl will agree to close the rifts on its side, and allow the gods to do the same on theirs, thus ending the cycle forever.

And, if said agreement can be reached and communicated back to the gods in time, the destruction of the world that the IFCC is counting on wont actually happen, so they'll find themselves in a pretty embarassing situation. Queue various denoument style resolutions for other plot threads. TDO and Redcloak maybe do parlay the need to have his help sealing the rifts to get better treatment and acceptance for gobliins. Elan and Haley go off and help her dad deal with his dad. Roy has fulfilled his blood oath (er, yeah, Xykon gets killed at some point in all of this too), so happiness for his family. V maybe heads back to the elf lands to patch things up relationship wise too. Durkon goes back to the dwarf lands to shared custody of Kudzu. And Belkar either dies heroically or remains in the snarl's world, but in either case never sets foot or breathes or is seen (eating birthday cake or otherwise) in the OotS world again.

The End

[brian 333]

Fair point. Bytheway, I've been meaning to tell you, I'm training to defeat a bunch of aliens that sre going to destroy the planet. Like, a whole fleet.

That was YOU!?!
We shall meet again, Colonel Silver! And this time I will bring twice as many ships, and they will be twice as big! And it will be you and your Dragon Squadron who will be surprised!

You shall rue the day that you ever heard of me! In fact, you should start rueing now! Because after you've been destroyed you won't be able to rue, and you will regret having missed the chance.

But, seriously, any chain of speculation involving the world in the rift is based on the idea that it is an habitable world. However, in the one place we'd expect to find life, Laurin can't sense any.

I personally believe the world in the rift is Elan's Happy Ending, but it is based only on what I think would be cool

[Tubercular Ox]

Oooh, what if their plan is to cause ENOUGH Chaos and fighting that someone will level up to Snarl-killing levels? And then with the power/legend and belief that comes from slaying a Pantheon-killing over-being that was greater than all the Gods, they hop their champion will become a New Super-God, perferably one Evil and willing to kill/take out a few of the Good Gods.

If the plot ends the way we all expect, except the Fiends get away with their newly minted mini-Snarl and no one is the wiser, then the sequel could have this as a (sub)plot.

[gbaji]

But, seriously, any chain of speculation involving the world in the rift is based on the idea that it is an habitable world. However, in the one place we'd expect to find life, Laurin can't sense any.

Doesn't mean that there is no life there though. I can think of at least three immediate possiblities:

1. Magical effects can't cross the border of the rift, so she sensed nothing because her senses didn't penetrate.

2. The other reality operates under different magical rules, and psionics (and perhaps other stuff) just doesn't work there (or doesn't work the same, and she didn't have the time to relearn how to use her abilities).

3. The other reality operates under different physical rules, and what she's used to sensing as "life" isn't what life senses as (needed to change the frequency or something).


To me, this is Chekov's planet. There's no point in having stated that there was a planet on the other side of the rift, and later showing that there was water on said planet (important detail being a rift that opened onto a surface rather than what appeared to be way up above previously), if no one's ever going to go there. At the very least, there has to be some kind of information that explains what the planet is, how it came to be there, whether people live on it, etc (and why it's relevant in the first place). And I'm not sure how that's going to happen in the story we have left without "the Order gets sucked through the rift and finds themselves on the planet" happening. I mean. They're in the Final Dungeon, with the Final Gate. The only remaining players who can interact with them are TE and the IFCC (and it's unclear how directly they may be able to). There's basically three things out there: The Gate, the Artifact, and the Vessel. We don't know what the last two are or do, but we know the gate seals a rift, that connects to this other reality and that the planet is there.

Rich has managed to surprise me and do things in ways I haven't expected pretty consistently, so I'm sure there's going to be more to it than I'm thinking, but I'm not sure how the Order (and audience) learns about what the planet is without going there at this point. I suppose the artifact could be an interreality communicator or something, and allow them to talk to the snarl or other beings on the other side, or something. But at some point, for them to get any knowledge about "whats on the other side of the rifts", either they have to go there, or they have to talk to someone who knows. It's possible that the whole thing gets resolved by the snarl poking its head out of the rift and talking to folks, maybe. But something has to happen that provides the answers to that question at some point in time (and there isn't much of that left).


I just don't think that Rich would show us that there's another world on the other side of the rift (twice!) and not have that be relevant to the story/plot in some way.

[Tubercular Ox]

If there are inhabitants on the other planet, they could be coming through Kraagor's Gate right now. Think of the time it would save to meet them without having to pass through. Also mumble mumble threads of reality.

[gbaji]

If there are inhabitants on the other planet, they could be coming through Kraagor's Gate right now. Think of the time it would save to meet them without having to pass through. Also mumble mumble threads of reality.

Kraagar's Gate is still sealed though. So even if inhabitants on the other planet have the ability to travel through the rifts, they could not do so through that one.

[Tubercular Ox]

Kraagar's Gate is still sealed though. So even if inhabitants on the other planet have the ability to travel through the rifts, they could not do so through that one.

mumble mumble threads of reality.

[The MunchKING]

But, seriously, any chain of speculation involving the world in the rift is based on the idea that it is an habitable world. However, in the one place we'd expect to find life, Laurin can't sense any.

Without casting doubts on Laurin's unquestionably impressive psychic abilities, when we saw it in wide-view there was a lot of green, thus suggesting plant life at least lives there.

[Grendelkin]

Either there's plantlife, or else there's ungodly amounts of jade and emeralds on the surface.

[RatElemental]

Either there's plantlife, or else there's ungodly amounts of jade and emeralds on the surface.

Could be green paint.

Spoiler: Tangential Sidenote

Show

There's also no particular reason plants have to be green, depending on the color of and distance to their local star they might evolve different colors to absorb more or less light for various reasons.

[Kardwill]

That was YOU!?!
But, seriously, any chain of speculation involving the world in the rift is based on the idea that it is an habitable world. However, in the one place we'd expect to find life, Laurin can't sense any.

Yeah, that bugs me too. I thought the existence of a planet in the rift was a possible solution to the goblins' problem : If the planet is unpopulated, then the goblins can have their own lands without having to conquer/enslave other people. But that only works if said lands are hospitable, and "no life in the ocean" is not a good sign.


That said, I agree with Gbaji that the heroes are going to "riftland", one way or another. Too many threads are hanging for that story to end with just a climatic fight with Xykon.

[Grendelkin]

Could be green paint.

Now you've conjured a mental image of the Snarl, decorating its own planet like a Fabergé egg in between rampages to destroy the gods and their creations.
... It may or may not be smoking a pipe and wearing a vest when engaged in its hobby, and has a collection of special brushes and paints.

[Peelee]

Yeah, that bugs me too. I thought the existence of a planet in the rift was a possible solution to the goblins' problem : If the planet is unpopulated, then the goblins can have their own lands without having to conquer/enslave other people.

Speaking solely for myself, I would be shocked and disappointed if the problem regarding systemic goblin oppression was solved by segregation.

[Kardwill]

Speaking solely for myself, I would be shocked and disappointed if the problem regarding systemic goblin oppression was solved by segregation.

The thing is, having their own lands is a major part of the goblins' demands, and one of the thorny ones since they can't have them without taking them from other people. For now, the goblins (and probably most "monster races") scrape by in the lands nobody wanted.

And I don't think simply merging into the population of human/dwarf/elf controlled kingdoms, like halflings and gnomes tend to do in D&Dverse, would satisfy them.

Soooo... We'll see, I guess?

[Peelee]

The thing is, having their own lands is a major part of the goblins' demands, and one of the thorny ones since they can't have them without taking them from other people.

Sure. But at this point, they have a major metropolis (and arguably all the associated territory that goes with it), along with trading partners who recognize their sovereignty.

So I'm not sure about dumping them on an entirely isolated area with nobody else around is really all that ideal.

[Tubercular Ox]

Speaking solely for myself, I would be shocked and disappointed if the problem regarding systemic goblin oppression was solved by segregation.

It doesn't have to be segregation. If the new planet ends up being colonizable, they could just have dibs on the good stuff while retaining their holdings on the old planet.

Or if the humans settle on the new planet, do they tell the goblins they have to stay home because they have to stay integrated?

Maybe the humans could agree to settle on the marginal territory so that the new planet is integrated like the old planet.

[brian 333]

Speaking solely for myself, I would be shocked and disappointed if the problem regarding systemic goblin oppression was solved by segregation.

I agree with this. The solution must be an acceptance of goblins (and other intelligent monsters) as equals. Getting rid of the goblins is not a solution.

[Precure]

Having their own land and independent homeland is not segregation, by that logic the existence of elven and dwarven lands are pro-segregation.

[Mic_128]

The IFCC have already interfered twice:
First: to soul splice V.
That interference created conflict between V and Xykon in the vicinity of a gate.

No, there was no gate. That gate was destroyed, and had been for months. It did do what was probable, causing Xykon to get off his bones and get back to searching for the gates again.

Causing trouble near the gates seems to be embedded in their plans.

Causing the destruction of the gates seems to be part of their plans. We know outright that they were wanting Hel to win her vote to destroy the planet as that would have done their job for them.

Serini even knows it - conflict around the gates leads to them being destroyed.

[RatElemental]

Now you've conjured a mental image of the Snarl, decorating its own planet like a Fabergé egg in between rampages to destroy the gods and their creations.
... It may or may not be smoking a pipe and wearing a vest when engaged in its hobby, and has a collection of special brushes and paints.

Well it doesn't seem to need the stuff gods need to keep godding, but it is important to have hobbies. A model planet or two (at 1:1 scale, because why not) isn't the worst pastime out there.