5e 0 Actions and fixed initiative, feedback welcome

[BerzerkerUnit]

Aloha, here’s a mechanic I implemented to spice up combats and ease running. Inspired by Val Hazak specifically, but generally the flinch mechanic from Monster Hunter World.

Fixed initiative makes running easy for me and tends to spread foes out among players.

Major threats use initiative 20 after lair actions
Lts initiative 15
Scrubs initiative 10

That’s just bookkeeping efficiency for me and it facilitates 0 action tracking.

Definition:
0 Action. A telegraphed action that begins at the start of the creature’s turn but occurs on initiative 0. The 0 action can be canceled if some previously established criteria is met.

Examples:
Blizzard Bridal Gown.
An Ancient White Dragon will begin deeply inhaling at the start of its turn. It acts normally, legendary actions and all. A sharp blow to the neck halts this inhalation, otherwise on initiative 0 the dragon lets out a sigh of icy mist that crystallizes into layers of snowflake patterned lace (or spiky hoarfrost your choice) which grant a 6th level Armor of Agathys effect.

The blow to the neck is dealt if the dragon takes 50 or more points of damage before initiative 0.

The Rumbling.
A mature Bullette or the Tarrasque will begin burrowing at the start of its turn, sinking deeper into the ground as it moves. Unless its movement is reduced to 0, on initiative 0 it becomes completely submerged and any creatures adjacent to it will be drawn into its quaking wake, prone and restrained under the earth. A creature can end the restrained condition by using their action to dig themselves free.

I’m also a big fan of creatures getting a boost if they’re bloodied but that’s a separate topic and I think MCDMs villainous actions are covered.

[PhoenixPhyre]

This idea of "0 actions" (telegraphed actions) actually solves (or helps solve) something I've been trying to figure out how to do: more reactive, telegraphed boss encounter abilities. Things like (drawn from FFXIV, which is MMO so it can't translate directly):

* Chase AoEs. A target is marked, and some time later, starts dropping aoe markers at the marked person's feet, often 3x in a row. But it happens with enough time to react, so if you run and keep running, you won't get hit. The trick is to also not run the aoes through your group.

That would translate into a set of 0 actions that would target the marked player's position at start of their turn that round. And can be telegraphed accordingly.

* In general, avoidable, instant aoes. 5e's AoEs come in two forms--unavoidable ones (AoE goes out, instantly applies damage, eg fireball) and persistent, zone-based AoEs (eg moonbeam). In neither case can you really react to avoid them--there's no telegraph. Since most are "starts turn inside", if it gets dropped over you you don't get a chance to react. The "ends turn inside" are really just obvious crowd control/area denial.

A key tactic in FFXIV is baiting aoes--you get targeted and have to move the aoe area to a safe spot before it actually drops. And then get out before it actually takes effect.

This would (in principle) allow this to happen. Or, as you say, to trigger the cancel condition.

The only problem would be ensuring that the player goes after the boss but before initiative 0. Otherwise they can't react. Which maybe your fixed initiative mostly does? Or a variant would be that bosses have a "telegraphed action" (like a lair action, but always goes first, where they set up whatever 0-action they're going to do this round.

I'll have to experiment with this. Thanks for the idea!

[BerzerkerUnit]

This idea of "0 actions" (telegraphed actions) actually solves (or helps solve) something I've been trying to figure out how to do: more reactive, telegraphed boss encounter abilities. Things like (drawn from FFXIV, which is MMO so it can't translate directly):

* Chase AoEs. A target is marked, and some time later, starts dropping aoe markers at the marked person's feet, often 3x in a row. But it happens with enough time to react, so if you run and keep running, you won't get hit. The trick is to also not run the aoes through your group.

That would translate into a set of 0 actions that would target the marked player's position at start of their turn that round. And can be telegraphed accordingly.

* In general, avoidable, instant aoes. 5e's AoEs come in two forms--unavoidable ones (AoE goes out, instantly applies damage, eg fireball) and persistent, zone-based AoEs (eg moonbeam). In neither case can you really react to avoid them--there's no telegraph. Since most are "starts turn inside", if it gets dropped over you you don't get a chance to react. The "ends turn inside" are really just obvious crowd control/area denial.

A key tactic in FFXIV is baiting aoes--you get targeted and have to move the aoe area to a safe spot before it actually drops. And then get out before it actually takes effect.

This would (in principle) allow this to happen. Or, as you say, to trigger the cancel condition.

The only problem would be ensuring that the player goes after the boss but before initiative 0. Otherwise they can't react. Which maybe your fixed initiative mostly does? Or a variant would be that bosses have a "telegraphed action" (like a lair action, but always goes first, where they set up whatever 0-action they're going to do this round.

I'll have to experiment with this. Thanks for the idea!

Thanks so much for your feedback! I have encouraged my players to think more tactically and expanded my interpretation of Bonus Action to allow bonus action movement options, like Misty Step or Harengon leaps to be used to avoid the "start your turn in the area" effects.

I had a list of things that could be used to move other creatures:
Eladrin Fey Step
Grapple/Shove
Battlemaster Maneuver
Telekinetic Feat
Various spells

Players often get stuck in combat thinking of how they can insure they deal damage, but you can leave that to one or two PCs some turns and work on positioning to ablate damage or capitalize on terrain.

Bonus actions can be taken any time during your turn. I've just ruled you can use them before damage that occurs at the start. I've also always ruled that the round a spell is cast, it has an effect. So if you're next to the cleric when spirit guardians goes up, it deals damage and if you're still there when your turn starts, it deals it again.

That double dipping encourages allies to drag or teleport you out of the effect or for you to make use of that bonus action movement option.

[rel]

I've used similar mechanics in one off monster abilities back in 3.5, but I like the idea of a codified single rule to cover all such powers. I recommend having the ability trigger at the start of the creatures next turn, not initiative count zero, as it stands a sufficiently fast character will not have a chance to react to such an ability before it goes off.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I've used similar mechanics in one off monster abilities back in 3.5, but I like the idea of a codified single rule to cover all such powers. I recommend having the ability trigger at the start of the creatures next turn, not initiative count zero, as it stands a sufficiently fast character will not have a chance to react to such an ability before it goes off.

That's why I recommended actually splitting the "0-action" declaration/foreshadowing from the monster's actual turn and placing it at the top (winning all ties) of initiative. Effectively this creates a "boss turn", where actions are declared at the end and occur at the start of the next boss turn. For surprise situations (where the boss is surprised), you can just start these boss turns on round 2, so surprising the boss means no 0-action that first round at all.

Clarifying--the initiative order goes

INT_MAX: Any queued 0-actions happen, then declare the next 0-action.
...regular turns here in order

[rel]

Yeah, that seems reasonable. There's the potential for some oddness if the PC's surprise the boss or what have you, but it's mechanically elegant and easily modified. I like it.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Yeah, that seems reasonable. There's the potential for some oddness if the PC's surprise the boss or what have you, but it's mechanically elegant and easily modified. I like it.

Having run a few creatures using it as originally posted, I have to say I think it works better for me as written for a few reasons.
1. Fixed initiative means at least a few PCs will go after the boss to work on dealing with it.
2. It forces the player to really consider whether alpha strike/nova is their best choice (as sometimes Bloodied or X damage in a turn may trigger such an ability).
3. Players with higher initiative can Ready an action to help divert it.

#3 is great because it forces the casters to choose whether to reserve their reaction for counterspelling or dealing with a 0 action.

Pls keep in mind, I always make info about this kind of thing available ahead of time so players know if the boss has a signature move of some kind. The ancient fire dragon's red comet maneuver is described in detail when a refugee describes how their city was destroyed, etc.

But I encourage anyone interested to run it as they see fit. DNDShorts recent vid about Monster Turn/Player Turn really interested me and I think declaring at the end of its turn and then triggering at the start probably works best for that system. Good luck!

[Just to Browse]

Recently Mike Mearls put out an idea of running monsters with multiple turns in fixed initiative. Not quite the same as yours, but it seems to rhyme.

I've been noodling on the foreshadowed action as well. I'm doing it similarly to rel's suggestion: On the monster's turn, it spends it action to declare its intent to do an action, and at the start of its next turn, the effect goes off if the conditions are still met. Doesn't mess with initiative which is nice, but at least for me, a powerful effect going off in the middle of the initiative doesn't carry the same gravitas as one that goes off at the end.

[Ionathus]

I love this "0-action" concept. As others have said, it helps with telegraphing (which is basically nonexistent in 5e otherwise) and it gives the fight better opportunities for turn-length goals. "Oh ****, we have to pile damage on the dragon NOW!" is a fun little bonus goal, and it makes the fight more dynamic and gives shape to the action. This turn was "blow to the neck" opportunity, and you failed to meet that goal, so now there's an additional challenge.

Interestingly, adding in conditions and constraints like this often seems to increase my players' feelings of agency. It's an optional condition they can try to meet, or they can barrel straight past it and maintain focus on their initial goals. Either way, the end result is that the following turn is (at least partly) something they chose to prevent/allow.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Why not simply have an initiation time of 1 round? The boss starts charging its attack on its initiative and it goes off just before its next turn. It solves the initiative problem and makes the sense of urgency even higher‚ since the boss will effectively have 2 turns worth of action during its next turn.

[Ionathus]

Why not simply have an initiation time of 1 round? The boss starts charging its attack on its initiative and it goes off just before its next turn. It solves the initiative problem and makes the sense of urgency even higher‚ since the boss will effectively have 2 turns worth of action during its next turn.

My guess is that spreading the impact across different initiative orders helps keep the combat less swingy.

If all the monsters act one after another, they can dogpile a single PC and knock them from full HP to zero much more easily, and the party has way fewer methods for mitigating that (at best, a single reaction per PC).

Whereas if the monsters are even a little bit interspersed with the PCs' initiative orders, that target PC can take three hits, then they (or an ally) get a turn to do enough healing/escaping/debuffing/killing to mitigate the PC's dire situation before the rest of the monsters can finish the dogpile attack.

[Yakk]

Your variants of this keep on swinging between punishing a high initiative bonus to making it not matter. Ie, with 20/0 actions, rolling higher than 20 means you can't interrupt the 0 action. With INT_MAX/0 suddenly your initiative bonus doesn't matter at all.

Legendary Actions are intended to keep the fight dynamic over the turn.

For a Dragon, a trick I think is great is to roll the AOE recovery *at the end of the turn*. And telegraph it. It doesn't have to be "the AOE will go here", it can be "there is a breath weapon coming next turn". Then leave it up to the PCs to deal with it with the tools they have!

Players can seek cover and spread out etc in response.

Telegraphing a move is key, moreso than setting up mechanics to make the move counterable.

If you are going to have specific mechanics, a key to making an ability susceptible to counter-play is that it should involve the PC doing something that they wouldn't do otherwise, it shouldn't be an automatic hard counter, and it shouldn't prevent the combat from proceeding towards resolution. This is why "the AOE that can be protected against via cover" is good here - repositioning for good cover is a soft, not hard counter, as is spreading out to avoid being an extra juicy target. You can even toss up resistance against the damage type, heal up, get a save bonus, etc.

Heck, you can even taunt the dragon to get it to go after you and ignore the weak ally.

A second fun trick is to tweak legendary actions so that they get advantage when used on the character whose turn just finished. This mechanically encourages the bbeg to spread out their offence (instead of the game-tactical-mechanically optimal focus fire) while giving the players the maximum time to recover from being swatted by the monster; it increases apparent difficulty more than it raises difficulty, which to me is the best kind of boss monster mechanics.

If this is a regular rule, then legendary actions should be reactive like, and cause modest status conditions in the target (like prone, reposition). Status conditions that last until the start of the targets next turn are also interesting; they can be debilitating while active, but they won't actually take the foe out of the fight!

Legendary actions like this:

Swat: Move up to half your speed and make a (claw) attack. The creature hit must make a strength save; on failure they are shoved 20', knocked prone, and incapacitated until the start of their next turn.

Glare: A target you can see must make a Charisma saving throw (bonus from cover applies). On failure, they take XdY psychic damage, must expend a reaction to move their speed away from the monster and seek cover, and are frightened. At the start of their turn while frightened this way they can make a Charisma or Wisdom saving throw to end the effect.

Short-range AOEs like Stomp, Wing Push area also great.

These all (narratively) fit the "response to a PC doing something to the boss", and granting advantage/imposing disadvantage makes them a bit nastier. The effects are debilitating, but are designed to be less likely to prevent the character from acting on their next turn (because that is boring!)

[BerzerkerUnit]

Your variants of this keep on swinging between punishing a high initiative bonus to making it not matter. Ie, with 20/0 actions, rolling higher than 20 means you can't interrupt the 0 action. With INT_MAX/0 suddenly your initiative bonus doesn't matter at all.

Legendary Actions are intended to keep the fight dynamic over the turn.

For a Dragon, a trick I think is great is to roll the AOE recovery *at the end of the turn*. And telegraph it. It doesn't have to be "the AOE will go here", it can be "there is a breath weapon coming next turn". Then leave it up to the PCs to deal with it with the tools they have!

Players can seek cover and spread out etc in response.

Telegraphing a move is key, moreso than setting up mechanics to make the move counterable.

If you are going to have specific mechanics, a key to making an ability susceptible to counter-play is that it should involve the PC doing something that they wouldn't do otherwise, it shouldn't be an automatic hard counter, and it shouldn't prevent the combat from proceeding towards resolution. This is why "the AOE that can be protected against via cover" is good here - repositioning for good cover is a soft, not hard counter, as is spreading out to avoid being an extra juicy target. You can even toss up resistance against the damage type, heal up, get a save bonus, etc.

Heck, you can even taunt the dragon to get it to go after you and ignore the weak ally.

A second fun trick is to tweak legendary actions so that they get advantage when used on the character whose turn just finished. This mechanically encourages the bbeg to spread out their offence (instead of the game-tactical-mechanically optimal focus fire) while giving the players the maximum time to recover from being swatted by the monster; it increases apparent difficulty more than it raises difficulty, which to me is the best kind of boss monster mechanics.

If this is a regular rule, then legendary actions should be reactive like, and cause modest status conditions in the target (like prone, reposition). Status conditions that last until the start of the targets next turn are also interesting; they can be debilitating while active, but they won't actually take the foe out of the fight!

Legendary actions like this:

Swat: Move up to half your speed and make a (claw) attack. The creature hit must make a strength save; on failure they are shoved 20', knocked prone, and incapacitated until the start of their next turn.

Glare: A target you can see must make a Charisma saving throw (bonus from cover applies). On failure, they take XdY psychic damage, must expend a reaction to move their speed away from the monster and seek cover, and are frightened. At the start of their turn while frightened this way they can make a Charisma or Wisdom saving throw to end the effect.

Short-range AOEs like Stomp, Wing Push area also great.

These all (narratively) fit the "response to a PC doing something to the boss", and granting advantage/imposing disadvantage makes them a bit nastier. The effects are debilitating, but are designed to be less likely to prevent the character from acting on their next turn (because that is boring!)

I'm not sure who quote is intended for. If it's me (the OP) here's an explanation:

RE: Initiative doesn't matter- not seeing it. DNDSHORTs recently proposed PC turn/Monster turn and PCs being able to weave actions and bonus actions into each other. As an older player that seems insane to me, but I can see the appeal from a DM standpoint where you want to see players working together more and thinking more tactically to create combos.

RE: Legendary Actions. A 0-Action doesn't replace Legendary actions (your post had me infer you think they do). If I was going to have it replace anything, it would be lair actions, some of which I think are too goofy. I'd like Lair Actions a lot more if they were more along the lines of "a minion appears and does X" or the "the boss flips this switch or shouts this command and X happens" instead of "one of the bosses eyes appears on a wall over there and beams you" or "the lair just fills with fog for 6 seconds" and so on.

RE: penalizing high initiative PCs. Initiative only matters on round 1, when it determines who goes first. At the end of round 1, every character has had a chance to take action, optimal or not and the order is set. If you don't like that system, you can roll every round (that's how we did it in 3.5) or you can play a different game (I love ORE supers games. We all roll at the same time and results determine the order stuff happens in.) But if you really think a PC with a 20+ Initiative can't do anything, I'd direct your attention to the rules for Readying an Action in the PHB and the updated Alertness Feat detailed in the One D&D playtest (UA Playtest 1, I believe) which should be the standard come September of this year but I'd encourage everyone to make the standard now, it's just way more fun to use.

RE: Deadlier legendaries. Your recommendation of making legendary actions more deadly isn't really engaging to me, it's just artificial difficulty spike akin to increasing HP. All it serves to do turn HP attrition into a harsher game of rocket tag.

Now moving recharge to the end of the creatures turn does give the characters more info allowing them act accordingly, but only in very limited active fashion or more likely a passive method like positioning. 0-Actions as I described them allow characters to use more Active methods to meet a circumstance.

To use your dragon example, they can fan out or move to cover (things they should be doing from Go when fighting a dragon anyway) but short of Stunning Strike, Turtling in a Wall spell, or casting Hold Monster, what they can do to stop the breath is very limited. A forgiving DM might let a strong PC try to hold the dragon's mouth and nose shut and classic schtick like stuffing a boulder in its mouth, could also work. You could even adopt the 50 damage example I provided to keep it from breathing on its next turn, but then you're not arguing against the mechanic, just quibbling about implementation.

Compare to the dragon example I gave. Everyone knows to focus fire on the dragon. This is when you use your biggest spells, ignore the scrubs or dive through the wall of ice or through the ice spiked floor to get you licks in. Even if they're on death's door or usually use their action to heal, they can use their action to try and forestall this additional potent defense which will extend the fight (giving the dragon another round to breathe and dishing out harsh damage to the melee warriors).

If a creature's 0-Action involves movement, like a mad artificer racing to a corner of the room and flipping a switch to send his tesla coils into overdrive and electrocute the room, PCs can cast entangle, spike growth, web, grapple, knock prone, shove, throw a net, thornwhip, ray of frost, Summon Sad Shadow, disintegrate switch, grab switch and hold it in the Off position, and more I'm sure. AND they can use positioning to move to high ground, look for and move to cover, cast fly so you aren't grounded, teleport out, Ready an Action to cast Misty step to avoid the blast altogether, go Ethereal, cast Resist Elements, and more I'm sure. All are active means of interacting with this mechanic they can supplement with passive or reactive. All are options that reward doing research, discovering Lore, thinking strategically and acting tactically.

The only other thing I'd say is I've recently downgraded Scrubs initiative to 5 from 10 because players that roll low often roll very low which had the LTs and Scrubs too bunched together. I don't put scrubs at 1 or 0, because rolling low is generally only an issue on round 1.

Thank you very much for your feedback!

[rel]

Your variants of this keep on swinging between punishing a high initiative bonus to making it not matter. Ie, with 20/0 actions, rolling higher than 20 means you can't interrupt the 0 action. With INT_MAX/0 suddenly your initiative bonus doesn't matter at all.

The '0 action' suggested up thread is a good solution to this issue. As is ignoring the idea of a round and simply going monster turn to next monster turn as I suggested.

[Vogie]

There are a bunch of good ideas here, but I think there's also some getting caught up in weeds, too.

It's really easy to telegraph what's going on with a dragon - even before this, a DM could very easily end the dragon's turn with "the beast begins inhaling" or "they raise their wings" and just play everything else precisely RAW. The reason you need telegraphed things is more for smaller fights (or fighters) or more subtle opponents, those things that have less telegraphed force of personality than a dragon.

However, what is being described is, in so many words, video-game-y. Like to the level of the Heigan The Unclean fight in the classic World of Warcraft Naxxramas dungeon. For the uninitiated, it was a 40 (later smaller) man raid dungeon against a comically large wizard, and had phases in between normal fighting where the raiding party had to move to one of 4 zones, one after the other, as the boss telegraphed and executed destruction in the other 3 zones. The timing, almost certainly on purpose, is in lockstep with Men At Work's song "Safety Dance", which is what it was then called. The idea that there will be areas "marked" on the 0 Actions and then having the party preemptively react to the telegraphed red zones is just turning it into a MMO raid with extra steps.

One way to make the things feel fair is by expanding what each player can do outside of their turn. Right now, reactions are largely unused in 5e, outside of a handful of spells (only 7, or 8 if you include Gift of Gab from Acquisitions Incorporated) and AoOs, which is the same with most D&D-likes. One things I've seen that is both interesting and frustrating is in Pathfinder 2e, there's a feat called "Hit the Deck!", which gives the player the ability to use their reaction to jump out of the way of a ranged attack - increasing their AC for that attack, moving a short distance, and landing prone. It's an awesome ability, as it shows a certain amount of verisimilitude, and feels like its an advance in how player turns work... instead, it's only optional, and even then, only available to the Gunslinger class (and those who multiclass into it).

Adding more reactions in that line of thinking would give players a brand new way to interact with the battlemap and the encounters within. Am I going to take this attack to save my reaction for the next one? Can I use this reaction to better my position for the next one? I can jump out of the way of this attack, but that means I need half my movement to stand up next turn! Let them use their reactions to duck under cleaves, sidestep line attacks, or jump at just the right moment when the boss makes the ground roil nearby. Giving players the agency to to use an untapped resource - their reaction - to choose from some basic reactionary moves would allow you to give the same style of back & forth that you're looking for, without having the GM pre-choose their moves in advance and start making drawings in red on the battlemap.

Another way is to encourage complimentary environmental manipulation in the boss battles.

• Give your boss a massive AOE blast that requires a reflex/Dexterity save that'll hit everyone... but also an ability that makes pockets of cover all around the battlefield. Maybe they're throwing rocks, making stalactites fall, or earthbending the ground into pillars, all that the party can take cover behind, giving them a bonus to those Dex Saves if they piece it together.
• Make the boss launch everyone in the air to fall to their deaths, with everyone saved by that caster with feather fall.
• If the boss has a mind-melting gaze attack, maybe they can avert their gaze or cover their face - saving their mind, but spending their reaction and now they're blinded against the next thing they face.

Increasing the number of spells and abilities that can be used as reactions, and using them to make thematic counters boss abilities. These effects should have a lesser or briefer effect when used as a reaction - you don't get the full use of the spell, because you're using the ability as a sort of counter

• Maybe the dragon does breathe fire on the sole member of the party who didn't dive out of the way, but the wizard saves them by encasing them in a watery sphere.
• A charging golem is tripped up with a reactionary grease.
• The resident halfling is saved from being crushed underfoot by a giant with a reactionary distracting strike from the battlemaster throwing a knife

The best way to actually do this wouldn't be to try to sit down and write out ways that each of the other 493 5e non-cantrip spells can be used as a reaction - make it up to the players to try to figure it out as they go. Just watch in awe as the warlock stops themselves from being cleaved in two with a quick Flesh to Stone targeting their own body, or the air genasi barbarian saves a falling cleric by dropping their rage and a reactionary levitate as a faux-feather fall. You'll get those questions along the lines of "Is this poison flammable? Because I would LOVE to use burning hands when the dragon breathes poison to cause their poison to ignite inside their mouth?" and make those calls on the fly. The deadlier the fight, the more of the party resources are consumed as they use each slot to keep themselves alive in increasingly absurd ways.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Every action and bonus action and all of the spells with 1 action or bonus action cast time can be cast as an action by readying an action. 9/10 times, this does not result in any meaningful loss on a players part because Reactions are so rare. By RAW Warriors do get the hose because they can only ready 1 attack, but rogues and casters are in the clear. Further, the Eldritch Blast spell makes it clear there’s no reason to prevent warriors from taking their full complement of attacks when readying and modifying the Haste spell is all that’s required to keep it from going insane.

Telegraphing “the dragons gonna breathe” or “the giants gonna bowl with a rock like a line attack” results in the same passive solutions I mentioned earlier. Positioning is something every player should be giving thought to anyway, but the purpose of the 0-Action is to present players with active solutions they can take to stop it.

And if it wasn’t clear from the examples and format, a 0 action is not intended to be a stock action creatures of a type are known for, they’re intended to be show stoppers that greatly impact the flow of the fight if not be a potential loss condition.

At 3rd level, Fireball should be a 0 action for an enemy caster. At 11th, Meteor Swarm should be a 0 action. And by making them 0 actions there’s a player centric course of action to take to stop it from happening, whether it’s a DPS check or a switch that needs to be flipped or another action of the players choice (even if the do decide to just dash for cover).

I personally don’t mind simple DPS check as a mechanic because most players want to attack anyway, but this forces them to be more selective while also doing a better job communicating when the optimal time for big resource spending is.

But I am biased and it’s working for me, so there’s no wrong way to do it and always do what’s fun for your players.