Dwarves aren't cool anymore

[Metastachydium]

Makes me think that a campaign in which Dwarves (and perhaps Halflings & Gnomes) are the most common races in the land might be interesting. A bit more hobbit inspired, less human farming villages threatened by orcs and more dwarfholds, gnome burrows, and halfling shires threatened by monsters with PCs as humans from faraway lands.

OR make Dwarves the real monsters! What do you think they eat underground anyhow? And who do you think has culturally conditioned Halflings to overeat but avoid strenuous physical activity?!

[Cluedrew]

To either reject or embrace dwarfiness.

Or even better, break dwarfness into its component parts and then reject or embrace those parts them individually.

Or more generally, I don't think we also have to treat the concept of a dwarf as a monolith. And I think that is something people tend to forget. As a few simple example, elves have two major sub-variants, wood-elves and mystic-elves*. These share some characteristics, and I don't think either is the true elf either (I'm sure some would happy quote Tolkien in a debate about it though), but it creates a broader bubble of elf traits that you can draw on without requiring them all. And if you want to make a dwarf character I think a good place to start is... just pick some (but not all) dwarf traits.

* And cave-elves and trickster-elves and sea-elves and dark-elves and Santa-elves. Basically, anything that would be a human except for pointy ears (and maybe magic, and maybe whatever traits the author adds to make them superior) than it is an elf. So I don't think elves are cool because I don't think elves are anything.

[Flashkannon]

Yes, the elf thing is way overdone. "Oh, you're going to play an elf game?" question sort of deserves the sneering tone that often accompanies it.

Personally, I play in an all-elf game, and it's loads of fun - we're all hard-drinking fun-loving dex specialists, wandering from one festival or obscure/hostile eatery to the next, with songs in our hearts. Our enemies never know what hit 'em, because they never see us coming.

And... I suppose this tracks from my previous statement, but I've found dwarves hard to approach, creatively. Part of it is the ascendancy of dexterity (initiative, AC, the most common save, ranged attacks, stealth) making a lot of the more traditionally dwarven options hard to justify mechanically, and not a lot of roleplay hooks that appeal to me, no matter how many times I've tried. I've got a character in the works who is pretending to be a dwarf, but that's hardly the same thing.

As for the dwarves I've encountered, all have been either a Varric-type merchant, or a traditional heavy armor no magic or holy magic dwarf. Not that I haven't enjoyed being in the same party as them, the scottish-accent calls-everyone-laddie/lassie stuff is fun, but they're similar dwarves.

[Errorname]

The other thing that hurts Dwarves is that physically, they're just humans. Their fantasy elements are basically all cultural. A stereotype breaking Dwarf will just end up being a short human, and that's just a sort of human that exists. I brought up that Varric could easily be a halfling or a gnome in a setting that had them, but the actual big one is that if you wanted to play a historical earth setting, you could easily just have him be human and you wouldn't have to change anything (aesthetically).

[awa]

Thats not really true they can among other things see in the dark and are extremely long lived, that's not cultural.

Edit
Further their talent for smithing is often depicted as more than cultural such that even adopted Dwarves excel at smithing

[Pauly]

The only 'alternate' dwarf type that I've seen gain any traction in the player base in a major sci fi or fantasy franchise were the squats from WH40K. For those who aren't from the late 80's early 90's Squats were essentially a bikie gang culture and dearly loved by the players. Games Workshop killed them off with the most common theory being they weren't grimdark enough for 40K.

I think there's enough there to create a fantasy equivalent. For example a focus more on kludging things together until they work rather than fine scale engineering, use of leather jackets and goggles instead of heavy armor, some suitable non-horse to use as mounts/chariot pullers and so on. You keep the gruff, disdainful of outsiders and live of ale.

[hamishspence]

The only 'alternate' dwarf type that I've seen gain any traction in the player base in a major sci fi or fantasy franchise were the squats from WH40K. For those who aren't from the late 80's early 90's Squats were essentially a bikie gang culture and dearly loved by the players. Games Workshop killed them off with the most common theory being they weren't grimdark enough for 40K.

I think there's enough there to create a fantasy equivalent. For example a focus more on kludging things together until they work rather than fine scale engineering, use of leather jackets and goggles instead of heavy armor, some suitable non-horse to use as mounts/chariot pullers and so on. You keep the gruff, disdainful of outsiders and live of ale.

They brought them back into the main 40K game in 9e as the Leagues of Votann (stating that only one League had been killed off) - as well as bringing them back with the new version of Necromunda, under their original Squat name.

[Errorname]

Thats not really true they can among other things see in the dark and are extremely long lived, that's not cultural.

These are decently common but hardly ubiquitous for fantasy dwarves, and even if they weren't some of the most generic traits for a fantasy race neither correlate to visibly inhuman features. Again, nothing about Varric's visual design would be out of place on a human character. Something like a Tiefling or a Half-Orc or even an Elf is obviously outside of the bounds of natural human physical diversity, Dwarves are not. I've never met someone with a tail and ram-horns, I've met a short dude with unflattering facial hair and surprisingly high tolerance for alchohol.

[Eldan]

The only 'alternate' dwarf type that I've seen gain any traction in the player base in a major sci fi or fantasy franchise were the squats from WH40K. For those who aren't from the late 80's early 90's Squats were essentially a bikie gang culture and dearly loved by the players. Games Workshop killed them off with the most common theory being they weren't grimdark enough for 40K.

From what I remember back then, and what the designers hinted at in interviews, it was basically three things:

a) Some people thought they were funny, but no one actually bought them. They were the worst selling faction by quite a bit.

b) Yeah, hard to fit into the setting. That said, they made orks fit just fine, so they could have worked around that.

c) Probably the big one: no ideas for what to do with them. Short of redesigning them from the ground up (i.e. Votann), there just wasn't that much they could do with space bikers. You had space bikers on foot and space bikers on bikes and them you kinda ran out of unit ideas.

[JellyPooga]

c) Probably the big one: no ideas for what to do with them. Short of redesigning them from the ground up (i.e. Votann), there just wasn't that much they could do with space bikers. You had space bikers on foot and space bikers on bikes and them you kinda ran out of unit ideas.

Don't forget the Space Bikers on their massive armoured land train! Instead of titans, they had the biggest tanks with the biggest guns. Always thought that very sensible of them (and practical; walkers are an awful platform for a war machine, no matter how cool they are).

[Witty Username]

These are decently common but hardly ubiquitous for fantasy dwarves, and even if they weren't some of the most generic traits for a fantasy race neither correlate to visibly inhuman features. Again, nothing about Varric's visual design would be out of place on a human character. Something like a Tiefling or a Half-Orc or even an Elf is obviously outside of the bounds of natural human physical diversity, Dwarves are not. I've never met someone with a tail and ram-horns, I've met a short dude with unflattering facial hair and surprisingly high tolerance for alchohol.

I find this an odd point given elf is nearly indistinguishable from human, and similarity to human is a selling point for them. And to be fair, I have seen people with pointier ears.

[Psyren]

Is there a problem here that needs fixing though? Fewer people playing dwarves means yours will stand out more. Isn't that a good thing?

They'll never unseat elves, humans, or tieflings - and maybe not dragonborn either now, especially after the new ones get darkvision- but I think that's fine, they don't need to.

[Errorname]

I find this an odd point given elf is nearly indistinguishable from human, and similarity to human is a selling point for them. And to be fair, I have seen people with pointier ears.

The stock elf is more outside the bounds of natural human variation than the stock dwarf, but I would agree that they also run into this problem a little.

[Lemmy]

I think the main reason is the serious lack of popular modern media depicting dwarves as cool (or even as anything beyond grumpy and annoying butt of the joke).

Even the LotR trilogy failed in that aspect quite a bit... As much as i love it, I can't deny they tell way too many jokes at Gimli's expense after the 1st movie.

The last time I saw some cool dwarves, it was in the 2nd season of the anime "Faraway Paladin". I like it quite a bit, but it isn't exactly the most popular anime out there.

[Witty Username]

I think the main reason is the serious lack of popular modern media depicting dwarves as cool (or even as anything beyond grumpy and annoying butt of the joke).

I blame Warcraft.

[Psyren]

I think the main reason is the serious lack of popular modern media depicting dwarves as cool (or even as anything beyond grumpy and annoying butt of the joke).

Even the LotR trilogy failed in that aspect quite a bit... As much as i love it, I can't deny they tell way too many jokes at Gimli's expensive after the 1st movie.

The last time I saw some cool dwarves, it was in the 2nd season of the anime "Faraway Paladin". I like it quite a bit, but it isn't exactly the most popular anime out there.

Prince Durin in Rings of Power was pretty cool I'd say. But aside from his uncharacteristic friendship with Elrond, he fit the trope to a tee.

[Lemmy]

Prince Durin in Rings of Power was pretty cool I'd say. But aside from his uncharacteristic friendship with Elrond, he fit the trope to a tee.

I said *popular* media, though. Not "1 billion dollar failure that lost 2/3 of its viewers before even the 1st season was over".

[Errorname]

Prince Durin in Rings of Power was pretty cool I'd say. But aside from his uncharacteristic friendship with Elrond, he fit the trope to a tee.

That is the one aspect of that show I've seen actually get reliably praised, but Rings of Power did not exactly light the world on fire, so maybe it doesn't qualify for the 'popular' metric.

It's a notable that it's a bit of an outlier in having prominent dwarven characters at all. Feels noteworthy that both Baldur's Gate 3 or Critical Role, easily the most notable D&D things in recent years, both did not feature a Dwarf character in the main party

[Psyren]

I said *popular* media, though. Not "1 billion dollar failure that lost 2/3 of its viewers before even the 1st season was over".

That is the one aspect of that show I've seen actually get reliably praised, but Rings of Power did not exactly light the world on fire, so maybe it doesn't qualify for the 'popular' metric.

Even if the falloff by the end of the season was that drastic, that's still tens of millions of final viewers, so I said what I said. And that puts it well north of some of the other examples given in this thread.

It's a notable that it's a bit of an outlier in having prominent dwarven characters at all. Feels noteworthy that both Baldur's Gate 3 or Critical Role, easily the most notable D&D things in recent years, both did not feature a Dwarf character in the main party

I agree, but as mentioned, these have much more exciting "Big Guy/Gal" races to choose from. CR pulled in Goliaths, while BG3 took an already musclebound tiefling and slapped some golem parts in her for good measure.

My hunch is that part of the Dwarf's problem, besides the saminess of their tropes, is that the narrative ensemble role they most often filled was the Big Guy - but I'd wager that most players (and authors) who have other options for that role tend to want to go larger than humans in all dimensions, not just wider/stockier.

[Errorname]

Even if the falloff by the end of the season was that drastic, that's still tens of millions of final viewers, so I said what I said. And that puts it well north of some of the other examples given in this thread.

I was more talking about being well-liked, and even among people who enjoyed it I don't think anyone was hugely invested in the series.

I agree, but as mentioned, these have much more exciting "Big Guy/Gal" races to choose from. CR pulled in Goliaths, while BG3 took an already musclebound tiefling and slapped some golem parts in her for good measure.

My hunch is that part of the Dwarf's problem, besides the saminess of their tropes, is that the narrative ensemble role they most often filled was the Big Guy - but I'd wager that most players (and authors) who have other options for that role tend to want to go larger than humans in all dimensions, not just wider/stockier.

I agree that competition for the big guy role with other races is a part of it, but you don't have to make the Dwarf the Barbarian. We've brought up Varric a lot, but Pillars made their Dwarf party member an Inuit-inspired ranger. You can get unconventional with this sort of thing. Hell, Baldur's Gate had a big bear of a druid who could easily have been a Dwarf and they made him an Elf instead

[Psyren]

I was more talking about being well-liked, and even among people who enjoyed it I don't think anyone was hugely invested in the series.

I honestly couldn't care less about how many of the 100MM audience didn't like it or weren't "hugely invested" in it or not; hate-watches and apathetic ones are still watches.

I agree that competition for the big guy role with other races is a part of it, but you don't have to make the Dwarf the Barbarian. We've brought up Varric a lot, but Pillars made their Dwarf party member an Inuit-inspired ranger. You can get unconventional with this sort of thing. Hell, Baldur's Gate had a big bear of a druid who could easily have been a Dwarf and they made him an Elf instead

Halsin definitely wouldn't have worked as a Dwarf for multiple reasons. 350 would put him at or near the end of his life as a dwarf, rather than still being in the first half of his lifespan for an Elf, which would have drastically changed his whole outlook on the shadow curse/Thaniel situation. It's doubtful if Thaniel would have even befriended him like it did if he aged at non-elf speeds. He's also much more suited to an elf's itinerant outlook on life (i.e. leaving the Circle to fend for itself) than a dwarf's much more community/responsibility-minded ethos.

I can't think of any fixed BG3 characters I would convert to a Dwarf and have then function as well. Probably best for us to push for a Dwarf character in a DLC expansion or BG4 instead.

[KorvinStarmast]

Half-elves also had something of that, in that their space was "in between". While 4e and 5e have made them "The charismatic diplomats", some of their earlier D&D representation was "don't really fit" or "try to fit somewhere"... not blank slates, but ones who were trying to fit themselves in.

Tanis Half Elven being one example of many.

OR make Dwarves the real monsters! What do you think they eat underground anyhow? And who do you think has culturally conditioned Halflings to overeat but avoid strenuous physical activity?!

My next halfling (if I ever make one) has to be named Hansel now.

I blame Warcraft.

And WoW.
Never pet a burning dog!

[Lemmy]

Even if the falloff by the end of the season was that drastic, that's still tens of millions of final viewers, so I said what I said. And that puts it well north of some of the other examples given in this thread.

Being famous isn't the same as being popular, though.

Sure... A lot of people still saw the series, but most people dropped it and the even among the ones who stayed, you'd be hard pressed to find someone who truly liked it or even remembers the name of the characters who weren't in the LotR trilogy.

(I watched a whole season of Iron Fist in Netflix. Doesn't mean I liked it).

And let's be honest: Being seen by tens of millions of people doesn't really count as an accomplishment here.

LotR is so massive, that literally any big production involving its name should have "tens of millions" as the very bare minimum it should be able to attract, no matter its merits (or lack there of). Even more so if it's made by one of the worlds largest corporations and has 1 billion dollars invested in it.

With half that much money and the LotR name, even you, I or anyone else with half a brain can get 10 million people to give it a try and probably stick around for an entire season.

[Psyren]

And let's be honest: Being seen by tens of millions of people doesn't really count as an accomplishment here.

I disagree, but I really have no interest in turning this into a Rings of Power thread either (you can start one in Media if you wish, of course.)

---

Back to Dwarven usage - D&D Beyond published updated stats on races species that are actively being played today using data captured from active campaigns and Maps, that I thought would be of interest for this thread:



From the above, it looks like Dwarves are faring a bit better in tabletop D&D than they were in Baldur's Gate, but they're still coming in behind Tieflings and Dragonborn. I'm curious to see how these stats change again once Goliaths and Orcs become core/Basic.

[DragonEyeSeeker]

From my perspective, Dwarves have really only dropped a little in terms of popularity. The race that has lost the most has been Half-Elves. Ever since 4E's re-branding of the Tieflings, the Half-Elves have plummeted in popularity. The Tieflings have eaten the Half-Elves' lunch.

[Psyren]

From my perspective, Dwarves have really only dropped a little in terms of popularity. The race that has lost the most has been Half-Elves. Ever since 4E's re-branding of the Tieflings, the Half-Elves have plummeted in popularity. The Tieflings have eaten the Half-Elves' lunch.

Out of curiosity, I went back to some older DDB stats to compare the 2023 ones to and I think you're onto something. Here's a 538 analysis from data that DDB released in 2017 that had Half-Elves and Dwarves considerably higher in the rankings. Back then, both were ahead of Tieflings and Dragonborn.

What I found particularly interesting was the huge increase in characters over that timeframe, e.g. from 25k humans to over 700k. It makes me wonder, how much of the Dwarven fall was due to the general shift in their perception of coolness among the playerbase we've been theorizing, and how much of it was due to shifting demographics, i.e. an influx of players who don't identify with the way they've seen dwarves portrayed, and who feel more affinity for tieflings and dragonborn?

[Errorname]

I honestly couldn't care less about how many of the 100MM audience didn't like it or weren't "hugely invested" in it or not; hate-watches and apathetic ones are still watches.

If we're talking about how it might have influenced the discourse and wider fantasy scene it kind of does matter. A show you watched and thought was okay but not great probably isn't going to inform future decisions on your part.

Halsin definitely wouldn't have worked as a Dwarf for multiple reasons. 350 would put him at or near the end of his life as a dwarf, rather than still being in the first half of his lifespan for an Elf, which would have drastically changed his whole outlook on the shadow curse/Thaniel situation. It's doubtful if Thaniel would have even befriended him like it did if he aged at non-elf speeds. He's also much more suited to an elf's itinerant outlook on life (i.e. leaving the Circle to fend for itself) than a dwarf's much more community/responsibility-minded ethos.

I'm not saying it was a mistake that the character is an Elf, but my point is it would not be hard to translate Halsin's general vibe to a dwarf druid. They didn't have to make him an Elf, the details about his specific relationship to the shadow curse and Thaniel could have easily been different had they so chose and if they had wanted a dwarf party member.

[Mordar]

Out of curiosity, I went back to some older DDB stats to compare the 2023 ones to and I think you're onto something. Here's a 538 analysis from data that DDB released in 2017 that had Half-Elves and Dwarves considerably higher in the rankings. Back then, both were ahead of Tieflings and Dragonborn.

What I found particularly interesting was the huge increase in characters over that timeframe, e.g. from 25k humans to over 700k. It makes me wonder, how much of the Dwarven fall was due to the general shift in their perception of coolness among the playerbase we've been theorizing, and how much of it was due to shifting demographics, i.e. an influx of players who don't identify with the way they've seen dwarves portrayed, and who feel more affinity for tieflings and dragonborn?

Is it worth speculating about the potential D&D Beyond bias? Maybe 1 of 8 in my playgroup used it...

Also a potential for "early adopters like things differently"?

I recognize that the tool is much better than anecdotal evidence, though.

- M

[Psyren]

Is it worth speculating about the potential D&D Beyond bias? Maybe 1 of 8 in my playgroup used it...

Also a potential for "early adopters like things differently"?

I recognize that the tool is much better than anecdotal evidence, though.

- M

Even if DnDBeyond represents some fraction of the 5e playerbase, I see no reason not to consider it representative. Or to put it another way, I don't think there's anything about DnDBeyond specifically that would cause its users' play habits to differ materially from the whole. All their other stats line up with what I'd expect from the 5e playerbase at large, e.g. humans being the most popular race, fighters being the most popular class, most characters being in Tier 1 etc.

If we're talking about how it might have influenced the discourse and wider fantasy scene it kind of does matter.

The opinions of the majority of its audience on its dwarf characters aren't what I'm interested in though, if you can even credibly distill such a thing (which neither of you can.) Rather, I was interested in the creative choices made by its writing team, vis-a-vis landing on prominent and background dwarf characters that broadly conform to the Tolkien milieu. (Quite understandably in this case.)

Put another way - they rocked the boat considerably more when it came to the humans, elves, and even hobbits in that show vs both the source books and the PJ films. The Dwarves though, not so much. You could have swapped out King Durin for Thorin and gotten much the same xenophobia, greed, and proclivity for subterranean mining.

I'm not saying it was a mistake that the character is an Elf, but my point is it would not be hard to translate Halsin's general vibe to a dwarf druid. They didn't have to make him an Elf, the details about his specific relationship to the shadow curse and Thaniel could have easily been different had they so chose and if they had wanted a dwarf party member.

Maybe, we'll never really know. Personally I think you'd have to change enough details to make it fit that you might as well start from an entirely new character and premise.

[SouthpawSoldier]

So, I have a tangent for everyone to consider; Monster Hunter International's takes on elves and orcs.

Elves are rednecks dwelling in trailer parks, orcs all have gifts for specific skills/activities.

To my knowledge, dwarves haven't received attention yet, but I think that a trope flip would revitalize the race a great deal.