Rolemaster and MERP

[LibraryOgre]

Branching off from this discussion....

So, funny story, as tax. I really only played MERP once, and that was as a GM. My older brother was playing a wood elf ranger, and was hunting, IIRC, orcs on the borders of Mirkwood. As I had never played, I didn't know the system really well, but it seemed EXTREMELY deadly to me... because I kept adding the OB to the Critical Rolls. So many orcs died with arrows through both their ears...

However, something that always confused me was "Moving manuevers". As I read it, you used that pretty much every time you moved? Which, since all of them had XP associated with them, walking from Hobbiton to Mordor should have been a ton of XP? Just for the walking, to say nothing of the orcs? That seems... odd.

Also, attributes. MERP had you roll d%, and improve your prime stat (whatever they called it) to 90, if it was lower. Did you use anything that made them a bit less random? 'Cause that always seemed rough and a bit arbitrary.

Ok, I'll think of more, maybe, later.

[Khedrac]

RoleMaster/MERP combat could be extremely lethal. About the only time I tried playing MERP my character died to a crit from the first trash encounter (some form of fly).

As I remember it the stat rolling gave some protecion to the players from "not good" rolls. If you rolled really badly you got to re-roll the lot, but this was before point-buy had been invented so random stats was the norm. By allowing the players to choose the order and, if they wished, swap the prime charcterisics for 90s (10 charcteristics rolled on 2%, 2 primary for each class) you could choose to get rid of your two lowest rolls or stick an above-90 roll for one of them (the bonuses from stats bout 90 went up pretty quickly iirc.). 4d6 discard the low was common, but how does that work with rolling on d%? This was a clever alternative.

MERP and RoleMaster combat could be really slow - you needed a GM who was on top of it (which luckily I had - he made it quick!) though MERP was slightly faster and simpler than RoleMaster, the GM needed to be able to reference the relevant tables very quickly.

That said, combat could be entertaining - one time my charcter watched a duel between my ally barbarian and two cave trolls (representing a whole tribe coming the other way through a narrow tunnel). In the combat the barbarian and one of the trolls both manged to trip over an imaginary dead turtle (one of the not-too crippling fumble results) in consecutive rounds!

I think the toughest part of the system was keeping track of xp - as you said it could be got for almost everything (including dying)!

[Mordar]

Disclaimer 1: My experience was 100% Rolemaster (no MERP), so there are possible differences between the systems despite the root.

Disclaimer 2: My experience was extensive...but mostly "A long time ago in a land far away".

Disclaimer 3: Some of the below is why I'd pick RM as my only game to ever play again if I had to, and some is meant to be responsive to the thread.

What do you need to play Rolemaster? A little patience for the learning curve and a few things that were in abundance for RPG players back in the 80s when I started:

Necessary Things

• A desire for a detailed game system
• Basic math skills
• Willingness to use those basic math skills
• A desire to really customize your character

In short, want a game where 3 human warrior types can turn out to be Conan, Garret Jax (book version) and Inigo Montoya and have it *mean* something*? Able to add 96 + 37 + 51? This is the game for you! * - Same applies to flavors of wizard, holy magic person, mentalist, mountebank, and pretty much every other grounded fantasy archetype you can imagine.

Specific topics previously raised:

Movement Maneuvers
Only used in instances of complex or unusual movements - nontrivial, stressful or risky movements. All of that walking to Mordor is trivial. The cinematic jumping down the collapsing steps to the bridge in Moria would earn though.

That being said, we absolutely used travel experience rules. Go to new exciting places and meet new exciting people? XP!

Stats and Prime 90s
To echo Khedrac, we rolled the 10 attribute rolls then placed them where we wanted, and as mentioned, would sometimes be faced with a decision. Rolling 96, 82, 75, 68, 54, 53, 49, 47, 24, 21...do I put the 96 in Agility for my Thief and lose the opportunity to bump the 24? [ASIDE: No, I would not. Ever. But some of my group certainly would.] [ASIDE 2: Modifiers more important than raw stat anyway].

Combat
I prefer to think of it as "detailed and dangerous" rather than slow. With experience you learn lots of tricks. Photocopies are important. Groups of opponents often used just one or two weapons. Get really good at doing arithmetic in your head.

But the biggest thing was to understand that physical combat has a very different place in RM games than say D&D, especially anything after AD&D. It is time consuming. It is risky. There are stakes beyond "consuming ~20% of my power and resources for the day". A typical game session for us would have *at most* 3 combats, and that assumes 1 or 2 were "minor" or included only 1 or 2 opponents.

While yes, a PC could be one-shot, it was an extremely rare occurrence, and by design was even more rare for typical "appropriate" opponents. To achieve a high enough attack to cause a critical of the appropriate level was a stretch, and then to have it fall in the generally 1-5% of the immediately deadly criticals range was even less frequent. So yes, it is possible to see a goblin hit a perfect attack on a PC warrior, because getting the magical .05 * .05 *.05 = 0.0125% chance does happen.

On "ChartMaster"
Yes, RM uses charts. In AD&D they were called "tables". More seriously, the master resolution chart is just a codification of target numbers and DCs, measuring failure and degree of success. You got pretty good at using that pretty quickly as a DM. Combat, wherein we get the most misguided derision, is the origin of "ChartMaster".

There is a chart for each major weapon, codifying performance against each of the 20 armor types (not armor classes). Why? Because a rapier works differently against chain mail than it does against full plate. So to does a mace. So yes, that free copier helped so that each character could have their weapon portfolio. How do you use the chart in combat? Simple.

Roll to attack, add your offensive bonus, subtract the defensive bonus and compare to the chart. Result is damage done. If you did really well, you may have gotten a critical hit. Roll an unmodified roll (poor orcs!) and the DM tells you the outcome.

Single roll resolution most of the time. Better than those always-multi-roll-on-a-hit systems. With bonus fidelity.

Skills
Tired of systems that are so reductionist that the high-dex character can do every movement under the sun (or moon), better than someone who trained since they were a wee lad to do exactly that one specific thing? How about the character who grew up picking herbs for her mother to help season food and cure diseases being out-herbologied by someone who has never seen outdoors just because they have a 20 in INT? The solution is a robust and meaningful skill system.

In short, the skill system is the heart of Rolemaster. Not classes, not feats, not class abilities...skills. Levels matter, of course. Why? Because levels give you skill points. Every level you chose what skills to invest in, and we're not talking about 2 + Int modifier secondary skills either. Mid- to high double digits, usually. Your class determines how hard it is to learn certain things because classes have to mean something. Someone with 10 ranks in a skill is much better than someone with 1 rank. Your skill is based on a combination of ranks and attribute bonuses...ranks generally count for 5% points per rank (once above a certain level it drops to 2% IIRC, and then 1% - looks like that dropped to 3% per rank in a newer version?) and your stat bonus is a combination of the bonuses for the stats used to succeed at the task. Climbing, for instance, might be Agility(AG)/Strength(ST) to recognize that you need both body manipulation and physical power to move up the side of a cliff. Archery might be AG/AG/ST to recognize that while strength plays a role, agility is much more important.

Every level can change your character. Want to be better at halberding monsters? Work on that Polearm skill. Want to be more acrobat than thief? Hit the Acrobatics at each level, and Pick Pockets only once in a while. Want your [insert class here] to get better at [traditional class role/interesting utility skill/niche knowledge/harpsichord]? You can do it! And all the AG in the world isn't going to help that Munchkin out-harpsichord you now!

You plan your development point expenditures ahead of time...and those are the new skills/ranks you will have after you "level up". So character generation includes spending your adolescence points, hobby points, apprenticeship points and determining your opening skillset...and then you flag what you are "developing" as you progress from Level 1 to Level 2. Hit level 2 and move those ranks from "developing" to "current".

ASIDE: We used a half-level alternative option where once you hit (surprise!) half level you could transfer 6 of those development points into skill points.

Tracking Experience
Truth. One of the things missing from when we played was a template for an experience sheet. Fortunately, we were adaptive in the mid-80s and had access to free copy machines. You did need to track successes, combat results and the like...but after maybe half a session you had it wired. Some addition and basic multiplication at the end and you were set.

- M

[LibraryOgre]

I was always entranced by the adolescent skill ranks, and the background options; they were some of the cooler stuff that I'd seen. But, with MERP, I was always fascinated by the Miscellaneous classes.

[Mordar]

I'm assuming you're using "classes" to mean "Professions". I contemplated editing my original post to correct my oversight in that regard as well (since RM doesn't have classes, it has Professions!).

Glancing at the MERP 2nd Edition book I think it is fitting and interesting to see Civilian and Explorer listed, but also Shape Changer.

Through the many (up through VII for me, IIRC) there must have been the better part of 100 professions. A quick google says 78, but I know a couple are missing from that list. The base list had 20, and the first three companions each added a bunch. Overlaying that array with the skill list is what drives the flexibility of the system to replicate your favorite characters from fiction - or create de novo exactly that thing you envisioned - with enough granularity, fidelity and impact to matter.

Quick reminder: Profession ("class" in most games) tells you the number of ranks you can learn per level, and cost of learning specific skills. The skills themselves tell you what you can accomplish in game. Recall that you allocate "development points" at the start of a level and transfer the skill ranks being purchased with those development points when you hit the next level.

Development point costs are 1 number (#), 2 numbers separated by a slash (#a/#b), 1 number slash asterisk (#/*), or a dash (-). The format tells you how many ranks you can develop at one level. Thus: # = 1 rank at cost of #, #a/#b = 1 rank at cost of #a, or two ranks at cost of #a + #b, #/* = any number of ranks at a cost of #, and - = you cannot develop this skill.

Professions will have highly affiliated skills (low cost # and/or multiple #a/#b), with several related skills (moderate cost #), a lot of unrelated skills (mid- and high-cost #), and a small number of unobtainable skills (-) particularly if they are a non-magic-user. Typical costs might be 2/4, 2/5 or 3 for active things your profession is really known for and maybe 1/2 for less active things; 3 - 5 for related elements, and 6, 7 or even 20 for stuff your profession just doesn't do much. Generally only Armor skills or Spell Lists get you #/* options, and those are generally 4/* or less (1/*, 2/*).

This makes Professions less of a dictatorial system and more of a loose set of guidelines, because you get to spend your 60ish+ development points at each level gives you so much customization - both to your character vision and your type of game.

- M

[LibraryOgre]

MERP may have done away with the differing costs for developing skills, though they did have differing points if you wanted to transfer DPs.

So, for example, a Warrior:

Every level, they +3 to the OB of weapon skills, +1 to the bonus of General skills (climbing, swimming, etc.), and +2 Body development. That's without spending any ranks.

At apprenticeship, and every level thereafter, they get the following DP:
3 Movement and Maneuver
5 Weapon Skills
2 General skills
2 Subterfuge
0 Magical
3 Body development
0 Languages
0 Spell lists.

DP can be transferred 1:1 for Perception (or secondary skills for the correct categories), or 4:1 if transferring to a type that has 0, or 2:1 if to a non-zero.

So, that Warrior, if he wants to learn a Spell list, might take 1 DP from MM, WS, General, and Subterfuge, giving him 1 DP in Spell lists. But if he wanted to increase Acrobatics (secondary skill), he could spend some his MM DP at 1:1.

Personally, I liked the alternate rule that let you spend 1 DP to get 2 levels of a given spell list; so a 1st level mage might spend his 5 DP to learn levels 1-2 of 5 different lists, then, at level 2, spend them to learn 5 different lists at level 1-2.

Were there ever any rules to pick up Power Points if your attribute was too low? What about race-specific spell lists?

[Mordar]

MERP may have done away with the differing costs for developing skills, though they did have differing points if you wanted to transfer DPs.

So, for example, a Warrior:

Spoiler: For brevity

Show

Every level, they +3 to the OB of weapon skills, +1 to the bonus of General skills (climbing, swimming, etc.), and +2 Body development. That's without spending any ranks.

At apprenticeship, and every level thereafter, they get the following DP:
3 Movement and Maneuver
5 Weapon Skills
2 General skills
2 Subterfuge
0 Magical
3 Body development
0 Languages
0 Spell lists.

DP can be transferred 1:1 for Perception (or secondary skills for the correct categories), or 4:1 if transferring to a type that has 0, or 2:1 if to a non-zero.

So, that Warrior, if he wants to learn a Spell list, might take 1 DP from MM, WS, General, and Subterfuge, giving him 1 DP in Spell lists. But if he wanted to increase Acrobatics (secondary skill), he could spend some his MM DP at 1:1.

I suspect there were two things at play (or more) driving the greater limitations imposed by this difference - a more constrained vision of the expectations of the setting, and a greater accessibility. Trying to keep the Middle Earth feel, perhaps, while also making the complexity barrier to entry smaller since it is a licensed product. On the other hand, as you laid it out it would allow learning things expressly prohibited based on your chosen profession.

Personally, I liked the alternate rule that let you spend 1 DP to get 2 levels of a given spell list; so a 1st level mage might spend his 5 DP to learn levels 1-2 of 5 different lists, then, at level 2, spend them to learn 5 different lists at level 1-2.

Were there ever any rules to pick up Power Points if your attribute was too low? What about race-specific spell lists?

I don't recall if it was official or house-ruled, but we did allow multi-list learning in the character generation process as well as during play, at least for pure casters. Each list was tracked as a different skill (so I couldn't put 8 ranks in SL Dev and then roll, see how many I needed to learn list A and then roll again with the remaining dev ranks to see if I also learned list B). In RM we definitely used the over-casting rules, so it was handy that we learned 10 spell levels at a time. It does lack the flexibility of grabbing early levels from a lot of lists (almost like cantrips?), but I think it played nicely.

Power Points mostly relied on two options - adder/multiplier items and stat bonus items. All of our development points and spell points were based off of the modifier for the relevant stats, not the actual value. Since a lot of background rolls and items increase the modifiers without increasing the stat, it seemed most appropriate. As such, items that improved stat modifiers were fairly coveted by the casters.

Our DM made sure multiplier items were relatively easy to find (at least 2x), so that made a big difference for our primary casters. Spell adders were a little less common.

I almost always played a hybrid or non-caster, so it wasn't much of a focus for me. I do recall that my one pure (Archmage) might have also had something that reduced PP costs for certain spells. Will try to rummage about and see if I can find the actual character sheet. Only about 25 years old!

- M

[Tarmor]

I ran MERP for a group of friends in University and in the years following. We'd play something for a few months, swap systems, repeat... going through a variety of RPG's. MERP was a favorite, primarily because of the Criticals. Once I started collecting material for the game I also picked up Arms & Claw Law, and Spell Law, so we'd mix in a bit of Rolemaster. I still have all the character sheets!

Stats: From memory if someone had really bad rolls I let them roll the full set again. Nearly all my players put a low roll in their main Stat, swapped it for 90, then used Background points to push it a bit higher. Being able to "assist" a Stat with a Race bonus also helped. I don't recall anyone ever complaining about the randomness of rolls.

M&M's: As stated above, they only matter for "activity involving movement which is unusual or performed under stress." Checks on the M&M table were rare.

Combat/Criticals: Lots of fun, even though dangerous. A Crit or a Fumble had everyone stop to see what the result was. Yes, they slowed things down. I made copies of any relevant Crit table (by weapon with RM) for each player, so they could check for themselves, which did help somewhat. Looking back, I think I've seen slower combat rounds in 3.x D&D and Pathfinder.

Spell Lists: I always allowed players to split their chance of gaining a list. So a Mage with 5 points (100%) would likely divide that 40% / 60% and be rolling for 2 lists.

Skills, DP, etc were all really well done. We only played with the 6 base classes, but there was a lot of possible customisation built in. Overall, I now prefer a system of this style more than a lot of other fantasy RPG's.

I've spent some time working on a new Campaign (I might get to run it this year, maybe?) where I've developed a few house-rules and will use most of the optional professions.
Changes: Expanded Equipment tables, using RM. Dropped most Fumble chances by 1%. Fate points gained each level to give a bonus to a roll or allow a re-roll. Simplified EXP gain. Spell List change - Gain DP's like other skills, not a % chance, and learn Lists by Rank.)
I've also been able to read the Rulebook (2nd Ed MERP) much more thoroughly over the years than I ever did when we were originally playing, so there's all sorts of things we didn't use or know about before, or didn't do quite right. I also have a much larger collection of PDF's and physical books than I did 30 years ago!

[LibraryOgre]

So, of the editions on Drivethru, which one would you suggest? None of them have the covers I remember.

[Tarmor]

So, of the editions on Drivethru, which one would you suggest? None of them have the covers I remember.

For MERP, I'd go with Second Edition for the rules. I have the Collectors Edition (2nd) that I really like. (It's meant to have more pages than the original second edition but I don't know how the actual content has changed.) The main changes between 1st and 2nd edition sounds like a better layout and structure to the book, plus more introductory material, not changes to mechanics.
The Rolemaster material I have is 2nd edition.

For Rolemaster itself... it sounds like the rules structure hasn't changed much between editions, so a later version might be more user friendly.

[Mordar]

So, of the editions on Drivethru, which one would you suggest? None of them have the covers I remember.

Hrm...we played RM2 exclusively, even after RSS launched. I think that is Rolemaster Classic on Drivethru, but I only see Companion I. I would definitely recommend Classic with at least Comp I and II. eBay seems to have some of the RM2 companions reasonably priced if you don't mind paper.

- M

[LibraryOgre]

Oh, I'm definitely going to be electronic; my bookshelves don't have space for me to get into new games, and I get advertising money from DriveThru which covers most of my purchases.

[Mordar]

Oh, I'm definitely going to be electronic; my bookshelves don't have space for me to get into new games, and I get advertising money from DriveThru which covers most of my purchases.

Buy RM2 RCII, scan it and then sell the book back on eBay?

[Duff]

Best botch ever - " You Stumble over unseen imaginary deceased turtle"

[LibraryOgre]

Buy RM2 RCII, scan it and then sell the book back on eBay?

Looked into this!

Rolemaster Classic is based on RM2! Added it to my DTRPG wishlist; I'll get it once it goes on sale.

[Mordar]

Looked into this!

Rolemaster Classic is based on RM2! Added it to my DTRPG wishlist; I'll get it once it goes on sale.

Good news.

You'll benefit from the first two companions as well...but baby steps!

- M

[LibraryOgre]

Good news.

You'll benefit from the first two companions as well...but baby steps!

- M

Hopefully, they'll go on sale.