Lich problems, looking for advice

[Darth Credence]

My players are about to run headlong into the single most powerful being in my game, and they really don't have a prayer of surviving if I don't just give it to them. They are a three-person party of level 15 characters - a wiz14/cleric1, an artificer, a drakewarden ranger, and they have a warrior sidekick if they want to bring him, but they generally don't.

The enemy at hand is a lich that is currently on the way to becoming the aspect of evil in the world, and will become so if they kill the ranger. Already, he has sent minions that nearly led to a TPK, only falling short because the ranger wisely ran away. The minions were a lesser starspawn emissary and a couple of manglers, with the lesser becoming a greater on death. The lich likes to open holes in reality to send these through, although they will not be used again, because the lich doesn't really control them. So none of those if they fight again, which helps them, but not nearly enough.

They intend to attack its lair. I find this to be a bad idea. They spoke with the court wizard about it, the most powerful wizard in the world, and he straight up said he did not think he could take the lich. The lich is a bit stronger than a standard lich, but well short of Vecna. However, there are things that will make it nearly impossible to defeat him in his lair, which is a tower.

First, this is a wizard who has existed for more than a millennium - he has access to every wizard spell. He doesn't have them all prepared, clearly, but he has a specific combat set if he believes he will be in combat soon, and he absolutely knows they are coming - he sent a boneclaw to attempt to kill them, but give them a stone from the road leading to his tower just in case they survived and wanted to come to him quickly. They grabbed the stone and teleported there. He will be ready with about the best combat setup a lvl 20 wizard could have.

Next, he also has a whole lot of magic items that he has collected over the years. One, which he probably won't use, is the Book of Vile Darkness. Next is a rainbow pearl shard solitaire, which is basically free misty step as a bonus action every round, and one casting of prismatic spray. Finally, he has the Staff of the Magi. He will use that right off to clear some space so he can absorb spells cast at him. In addition, he has a bracer with a dozen fully charged wands of magic missile, a bunch of scrolls, several fireball necklaces, and rooms full of potions that he can prepare with.

Then there's the lair. In his long, long life, he found some clerics to cast forbiddance throughout his tower, for the most part allowing fiends and undead in (although a few places will harm fiends). In addition, he has left various points free of forbiddance, so if you know exactly where to go, things like misty step or his gem still work. Of course, most of those places, and a bunch of other places, as well, have either a glyph of warding or a symbol of some sort. If they teleport to such a place, they will trigger the symbol.

He does have minions. Not a ton, because he doesn't need them, and his best is the bone claw which isn't a factor. But he has some undead servants to throw a wrench into action economy.

Finally, if by some miracle they do the impossible and kill him, he'll end up at his phylactery. Which is deep underground in a cavern full of poisonous gas and more symbols that only the lich knows about.

Now, I expected him to be one of the endgame threats, for when they had a party at level 20. They intend to attack now. I don't want them all to die, and I have thrown several outs at them (mostly about the ranger sacrificing himself for the greater good, which I almost had them decide to do), but I also don't feel good about nerfing the lich so they can win. All I can think right now is figuring out a reason for him to not kill them all. Any thoughts?

[Damon_Tor]

lich problems

Just wanted to get the "99 problems and a litch ain't one." joke out of the way.

[Darth Credence]

Just wanted to get the "99 problems and a litch ain't one." joke out of the way.

I almost put it in the title, but figured someone would end up running with it in the comments!

[JackPhoenix]

Kill them.
They were warned.
They were almost killed by minions, and they know the one who sent them is more powerful.
Yet they still decided to attack the lich in its lair.
Give them what they want.
They won't learn anything if you coddle them.

[Unoriginal]

The enemy at hand is a lich that is currently on the way to becoming the aspect of evil in the world, and will become so if they kill the ranger

This here is your solution, IMO.

Let's visualize the situation:

The Lich is close to accomplishing that goal, some of the Lich's enemies from good, neutral and evil have to know about it, and a group of adventurers decide to put efforts to *accelerate* it after minimum bait.

It's clear none of the other foes of the Lich, ranging from people opposed to a new aspect of evil to people who personally hate the Lich for unrelated reason, would let it happen if they have any power to do it.

And it's very likely at least one of those entities or groups will have the power to do something about it.

In other words, IMO you need someone who's on the "don't let the Lich win" side to *show* them they're how much outclassed for the moment.

And then present a solution once the PCs have understood the problem.

I'm not sure if you had them already arrive into the tower through the teleport, but if you didn't then you can have the someone in question hijack the teleport to bring the PCs to their own place.

If you did already resolve the teleport, then I would have that the PCs trigger a contingency placed on the tower in case who the Lich needs to win showed up.

Personally, what I would do would have the PCs be transported to a big arena, with the being who brought them here being a demigod of the deity of Strength, Might or something similar.

The demigod would ask them what the **** they're doing, handing the Lich the win like that, and if the PCs argue the demigod proposes a bet: if the PC can beat them right here right now, they'll get the group as if they had a full long rest and give them an additional boost to help, then will teleport them back in the tower, but further up so they don't have to deal with the Lich's mooks at all.

I'd use an Empyrean statblock, except using no weapons of any kind and with a three-unarmed-strikes Multiattack, and staying Medium-sized at least for the first half of the fight.

And as the PCs are getting demolished by a guy who has 0 equipment and is just hitting them bare-handed, have the demigod give constructive criticism AND compliments on how they fight, but also pointing out all the things the Lich has (artifacts, boatloads of magic items, the most dangerous spells in history, the phylactery, the tower's defenses, etc).

[Darth Credence]

Kill them.
They were warned.
They were almost killed by minions, and they know the one who sent them is more powerful.
Yet they still decided to attack the lich in its lair.
Give them what they want.
They won't learn anything if you coddle them.

This is what I am leaning towards the most, although if I do so, it wouldn't be a TPK. The lich would do whatever it takes to eliminate the ranger, then lose interest in the rest of it. Perhaps he eliminates the ranger, and his ascension begins. The way we have done everything else so far, it would almost certainly be easier to lock him away after he ascends than kill him before.

This here is your solution, IMO.

Let's visualize the situation:

The Lich is close to accomplishing that goal, some of the Lich's enemies from good, neutral and evil have to know about it, and a group of adventurers decide to put efforts to *accelerate* it after minimum bait.

It's clear none of the other foes of the Lich, ranging from people opposed to a new aspect of evil to people who personally hate the Lich for unrelated reason, would let it happen if they have any power to do it.

And it's very likely at least one of those entities or groups will have the power to do something about it.

In other words, IMO you need someone who's on the "don't let the Lich win" side to *show* them they're how much outclassed for the moment.

And then present a solution once the PCs have understood the problem.

I'm not sure if you had them already arrive into the tower through the teleport, but if you didn't then you can have the someone in question hijack the teleport to bring the PCs to their own place.

If you did already resolve the teleport, then I would have that the PCs trigger a contingency placed on the tower in case who the Lich needs to win showed up.

Personally, what I would do would have the PCs be transported to a big arena, with the being who brought them here being a demigod of the deity of Strength, Might or something similar.

The demigod would ask them what the **** they're doing, handing the Lich the win like that, and if the PCs argue the demigod proposes a bet: if the PC can beat them right here right now, they'll get the group as if they had a full long rest and give them an additional boost to help, then will teleport them back in the tower, but further up so they don't have to deal with the Lich's mooks at all.

I'd use an Empyrean statblock, except using no weapons of any kind and with a three-unarmed-strikes Multiattack, and staying Medium-sized at least for the first half of the fight.

And as the PCs are getting demolished by a guy who has 0 equipment and is just hitting them bare-handed, have the demigod give constructive criticism AND compliments on how they fight, but also pointing out all the things the Lich has (artifacts, boatloads of magic items, the most dangerous spells in history, the phylactery, the tower's defenses, etc).

This is probably the route I should do. They teleported to the lich's tower - they ran from a boneclaw to do so, grabbing the item that would let them get there and casting. That doesn't mean that what I described they saw when they arrived has to be the lich's tower, because they haven't seen anyone yet. The tower could be the tower of the person who will smack them around. My best hope - one that would make it their decision - is that they try to gather some more information. They have a spell I created called the will of the Deity, which gives them a lifelike vision of what the Deity they link to wants them to do. If they cast that, this would make a lot of sense.

My current plan before reading this was to have a simulacrum of the lich meet them outside and suggest they parley. See if he can tempt them into just letting him kill the ranger (this is all part of the ranger's backstory, not me deciding I want to kill the ranger). He almost convinced the ranger to do so by explaining in a dream that he needs to commit genocide of some sort, and killing the ranger will take care of it. But it's becoming annoying enough that he is considering just genociding some other groups, so him lying down and dying saves lives. He's also explained that him being the aspect of evil would be good for the world, because evil exists, and it would be better for someone aligned with order to take control of it. They didn't buy that, either.

[Unoriginal]

This is probably the route I should do. They teleported to the lich's tower - they ran from a boneclaw to do so, grabbing the item that would let them get there and casting. That doesn't mean that what I described they saw when they arrived has to be the lich's tower, because they haven't seen anyone yet. The tower could be the tower of the person who will smack them around.

You could also play with this by saying the room is identical to the one in the Lich's tower, as it's part of the teleportation misdirecting (since teleporting to a similar location is a known misfire result for teleportation, and this could be a way to exploit it), and as soon as they leave the room the environment is completely different in feels and architecture.

My best hope - one that would make it their decision - is that they try to gather some more information. They have a spell I created called the will of the Deity, which gives them a lifelike vision of what the Deity they link to wants them to do. If they cast that, this would make a lot of sense.

I think they're past the point of seeking info on their own, if they were willing to wander into the lion's den while fleeing from the lion's third grade servant.


I think having a fight to let the players and PCs blow the steam is important, and the entity smacking them around should make clear that:

a) The group has that much troubles against the entity, and the entity has spent years trying to beat the Lich without succeeding.

b) The Lich has a *ton* of powers and items they won't hesitate to use.

c) Even if by some freak accident they do kill the Lich, they don't know anything about the phylactery or how to get to it in time.

d) The entity is able and willing to help the PCs grow stronger, if they're willing to put in the effort rather than just charge headlong to their deaths.

An important part to sell the thing would likely be to make it clear this isn't some DMPC telling the players they're wrong and should be in awe of the NPC's awesome might or anything like that.

Portraying the entity as very old and at the end of their rope can do the trick.

[emyrion]

A question to ask is what does the situation look like from the players perspective, and why do they think attacking the Lich is the best option? From the picture you painted it seems like then party is being actively hunted by the Lich, who knows where they are, and almost died to the last death squad (does party know he is out of starspawn?). It seems the situation from the parties perspective is:
1. Fight endless hordes of minion death squads, eventually die.
2. Sacrifice Ranger, Lich wins, grows even more powerful then kills them.
3. Desperate attack, 99% certainty of death, but maybe they'll get lucky. Only chance though.

If you want them to fight the Lich at level 20 make it clear that they have a chance to make it there. Maybe the NPC wizard tells the that while he can't defeat the Lich, he can hide the party from his minions while they train/study/gather mcguffins.

I'd rather final charge than being hunted down like a dog, and it seems the party agrees. Don't change the Lich, change the parties circumstances.

[Unoriginal]

A question to ask is what does the situation look like from the players perspective, and why do they think attacking the Lich is the best option? From the picture you painted it seems like then party is being actively hunted by the Lich, who knows where they are, and almost died to the last death squad (does party know he is out of starspawn?). It seems the situation from the parties perspective is:
1. Fight endless hordes of minion death squads, eventually die.
2. Sacrifice Ranger, Lich wins, grows even more powerful then kills them.
3. Desperate attack, 99% certainty of death, but maybe they'll get lucky. Only chance though.

If you want them to fight the Lich at level 20 make it clear that they have a chance to make it there. Maybe the NPC wizard tells the that while he can't defeat the Lich, he can hide the party from his minions while they train/study/gather mcguffins.

I'd rather final charge than being hunted down like a dog, and it seems the party agrees. Don't change the Lich, change the parties circumstances.

On the other hand, Liches are among the most well-known "you can't beat them by just attacking them" bad guys.

The PCs not stopping and saying "alright, we need more info if we want to beat this guy" is puzzling, in those circumstances.

[Darth Credence]

A question to ask is what does the situation look like from the players perspective, and why do they think attacking the Lich is the best option? From the picture you painted it seems like then party is being actively hunted by the Lich, who knows where they are, and almost died to the last death squad (does party know he is out of starspawn?). It seems the situation from the parties perspective is:
1. Fight endless hordes of minion death squads, eventually die.
2. Sacrifice Ranger, Lich wins, grows even more powerful then kills them.
3. Desperate attack, 99% certainty of death, but maybe they'll get lucky. Only chance though.

If you want them to fight the Lich at level 20 make it clear that they have a chance to make it there. Maybe the NPC wizard tells the that while he can't defeat the Lich, he can hide the party from his minions while they train/study/gather mcguffins.

I'd rather final charge than being hunted down like a dog, and it seems the party agrees. Don't change the Lich, change the parties circumstances.

From the players' perspective, they have had a few random attacks over the past in-game year. One shortly after the ranger joined the game, to establish it as something going on in his backstory, and two more since they have entered the region of the world the lich lives in. They have spent months in that area recently, as they have a different quest that they have agreed to complete by the equinox. They passed by, and the lich sent a group. At that point, they did what I should have known they would do - decide to drop what they were currently working on to go after the latest thing to pop up. After wandering the forest and talking to its guardians for a while, they decided to hunt down some giants, which brought them closer to the lich, and the third attack. So if they are thinking #1, they have made things out to be different than they are, although that is almost certainly my fault, not theirs.

Choice 2 is honestly the best plan, and they should know it. They have had experience with other Aspects, as it is the core of the campaign. They killed the Aspect of Lust, which damaged the foundations of reality. They have assisted someone else in becoming the new Aspect of Lust, although they need to deal with a different contender to finish it and heal the foundations. They have fought the Aspect of Greed, using a ritual to seal it away so that all it can do is maintain its place while not actually impacting the world. They have interacted with the Aspects of Order and Chaos and learned a bit about how they work and how they oppose each other. They have had hints of how an Aspect of Good can be created, and how the paladin that used to be a PC before the player had to leave the game is progressing down the path of becoming that Aspect. It has been fairly clear that the world works better if everything has an Aspect.

They have used Contact Other Plane substantially. In my world, there are 24 deities, and when they cast CoP, we roll a 24-sided die and determine which domain they have contacted. When last they did it, they rolled the Devil of Evil, Pride, and Wrath, which was unfortunate because even though they know that they are always told the truth, it is the truth from the contacted group's POV. They asked what would happen if the lich became the Aspect, and the answer was "Order". They also asked some questions about the phylactery, getting enough to know that it is not going to be easily found. The last question in that vein was how they could find it, and the best answer boiled down to kill the lich and wait for him to reappear, because that's where it would be.

I think the biggest mistake I made was the lich threatening the forest creatures they had befriended. While heading to the beholder's lair they have to deal with by the equinox, they met many awakened animals that had been turned into guardians of the forest by the Mother of Mercy, Nature, and Revenance (good lord my campaign sounds insane from the outside). They were trying to keep the forest working, and fighting against giants. The players have helped them, because they're cute animals. The lich said to the ranger, just sacrifice yourself, and I'll go away - otherwise, I'll have to complete an entirely different genocide, and a clan of awakened animals will fit the bill. The ranger's player was right on the edge of doing so (and later said how much he liked that decision being thrown at him), but when the group discussed it, they decided to go try to kill the lich instead.

Ultimately, changing the party's circumstances seems to mesh with Unoriginal's idea - specifically using a powerful entity to explain it to them. I think I can make this work with a few extra tie-ins. The Empyrean would need to have been sent by Estaes, the Mother who created the awakened animals. That would allow her to tell them that she can protect her people from the lich. They could also tell the party that the lich is bluffing, and cannot just genocide someone else and have everything work - he'd have to start the entire process over.

I am now down to two possibilities (other than just letting it play out). The first is doing the hijack thing, and having an Empyrean show up to give them a very clear example of their current power level. That Empyrean would be an agent of Estaes, and it would tell them about her will as it is beating them all up. My largest problem with that is that based on everything else, I am not 100% confident that they would actually be dissuaded.

The other relies on a magic item they picked up a few levels back that I gave them as an emergency rescue device. One time use, summons a solar. I asked in the previous session, when I could see the writing on the wall, who ended up with the magic gem, since it seemed no one had put it on their character sheet. One player said, "Why, whatever reason could you have for asking?", so at least they know that it could be an important time to use it. If they did use it, I could have the solar start to fight the lich, telling everyone else to get out of there. The solar would be taking damage the entire time thanks to forbiddance, and wouldn't last more than a minute, but it should be enough for them to escape (I guess it's possible it could even let them win, although I doubt it).

Four more days to figure this out!

[Oramac]

This here is your solution, IMO.

Let's visualize the situation:

snip

What Unoriginal said. I think this is likely the best solution. Failing that...

Kill them.
They were warned.
They were almost killed by minions, and they know the one who sent them is more powerful.
Yet they still decided to attack the lich in its lair.
Give them what they want.
They won't learn anything if you coddle them.

Do this. They've had plenty of warning from the sound of it. If they want to run a suicide mission, let them. Then have the lich raise their corpses to throw at the new party as minions of the lich.

[Unoriginal]

They could also tell the party that the lich is bluffing, and cannot just genocide someone else and have everything work - he'd have to start the entire process over.

The Lich could also be bluffing about just being able to genocide at all.

As in, even if he has the raw power to do it, when you do that kind of brazen power play you get all your enemies to put you on top of their "must be handled yesterday" list, and you get a whole new bunch of enemies out of it.

The world likely won't rally against him if he kills the Ranger, but if he annihilate a people? Well, any other people may be next, so they'll have a certain interest in his demise.

My largest problem with that is that based on everything else, I am not 100% confident that they would actually be dissuaded.

Maybe have the Empyrean offer them a bet, then: whoever loses the fight has to do one adventure for the winner.

That way even if they somehow win they'll have backup that will allow the group to survive.

Four more days to figure this out!

I hope you tell us how it went afterward.

Your campaign sounds pretty great and epic.

[Darth Credence]

I hope you tell us how it went afterward.

I will definitely do so, although it is delayed another week - one of my players has to work this weekend, and we're not doing this one person down.

[Grog Logs]

A question to ask is what does the situation look like from the players perspective, and why do they think attacking the Lich is the best option? From the picture you painted it seems like then party is being actively hunted by the Lich, who knows where they are, and almost died to the last death squad (does party know he is out of starspawn?). It seems the situation from the parties perspective is:
1. Fight endless hordes of minion death squads, eventually die.
2. Sacrifice Ranger, Lich wins, grows even more powerful then kills them.
3. Desperate attack, 99% certainty of death, but maybe they'll get lucky. Only chance though.

If you want them to fight the Lich at level 20 make it clear that they have a chance to make it there. Maybe the NPC wizard tells the that while he can't defeat the Lich, he can hide the party from his minions while they train/study/gather mcguffins.

I'd rather final charge than being hunted down like a dog, and it seems the party agrees. Don't change the Lich, change the parties circumstances.

In my opinion, emyrion is the only person who has diagnosed the problem correctly, but they did not fully spell out the solution, IMHO.

TALK.TO.THE.PLAYERS.

This is not a game mechanics problem (e.g., kill them). This is not a narrative/storytelling problem (e.g., a weaponless Empyrean or demigod teleport away problem). This is a social contract problem. More specifically, this is a problem occurring between the real life human players playing the game (both DM and Players), most likely due to miscommunication of expectations. You need to talk to them explicitly out-of-character about what is going on (not the specific Lich magic items, but the inevitable TPK). Because I suspect that the Players are misinterpreting what you are putting forth in the campaign.

After you know what the IRL human beings are thinking, feeling, and interpreting; then you can decide as a group how it is going to be resolved mechanically and/or narratively. The solution could be designed by the DM, the Players, or a combination of the two. The Players might be like, "But, my PC would do X." And, then you say, okay, so does another PC want to have a moment of insight (do not roll dice, it just occurs) that they are on an impossible odds mission and the second PC changes the mind of the first PC. Or, maybe the Players want the DM to railroad the PCs with an demigod teleport weaponless Empyrean battle. Any solution is okay. But, it is going to take Player (not PC) buy-in because there is a Player (not PC problem). Good literature and good movies have protagonists doing foolish quests and being stopped by a deus ex machina or another character stopping them. So, the PCs concluding idea # 3 of emyrion is fine. You (the DM) just need to know if the Players want to go for a one-in-a-million shot that is likely to result in TPK or if they want something else to happen.

[Mastikator]

If letting them walk into certain doom is too harsh you can always fire off a warning shot as they approach the lich's tower, by having the lich cast meteor swarm from atop his tower from a mile away directly on them, followed by the same boneclaw attacking them again. 40d6 bludgeoning/fire damage + a CR 12 monster will be a devastatingly difficult fight and may convince them that they don't have what it takes yet. It may also kill them, but that was still but a taste of the lich's power.

[Lord Vukodlak]

In my opinion, emyrion is the only person who has diagnosed the problem correctly, but they did not fully spell out the solution, IMHO.

TALK.TO.THE.PLAYERS.

This is not a game mechanics problem (e.g., kill them). This is not a narrative/storytelling problem (e.g., a weaponless Empyrean or demigod teleport away problem). This is a social contract problem. More specifically, this is a problem occurring between the real life human players playing the game (both DM and Players), most likely due to miscommunication of expectations. You need to talk to them explicitly out-of-character about what is going on (not the specific Lich magic items, but the inevitable TPK). Because I suspect that the Players are misinterpreting what you are putting forth in the campaign.

This, the players can easily be operating under the assumption that if the DM presents the PC's with a threat its one they can handle. If they can't don't be coy or immersive just flat out say you can't win at this stage.

Or say you can't attack the Lich because you haven't finished preparing that part of the campaign yet.

[Sigreid]

I would out of character tell the players straight up that if they continue on this path you will not pull punches, have the lich all of a sudden get stupid or monolog to give them a chance. Any slim chance they have they will have to make without help from you.

[GeneralVryth]

I am not sure I would go full OOC telling the players stuff. My favorite solution when the players are about to do something suicidally stupid, and the characters should know better is just ask for a Wisdom, or Int check (with a very low DC you know), and then if any pass explain what they should understand based off of what the character knows.

In essence on passing the check, "You have been nearly killed by this dudes mid level henchmen. He is going to for god like powers, if you attack him in the state you are in now, it's going to be like a rat trying to kill a dragon, with likely the same outcome. And you aren't the dragon."

[Unoriginal]

I am not sure I would go full OOC telling the players stuff. My favorite solution when the players are about to do something suicidally stupid, and the characters should know better is just ask for a Wisdom, or Int check (with a very low DC you know), and then if any pass explain what they should understand based off of what the character knows.

In essence on passing the check, "You have been nearly killed by this dudes mid level henchmen. He is going to for god like powers, if you attack him in the state you are in now, it's going to be like a rat trying to kill a dragon, with likely the same outcome. And you aren't the dragon."

I don't see the point of asking for a roll, here.

The 5e guideline is that in general, a roll should only be called if the consequences for failure and the consequences for success are both interesting.

Reminding the players of things they have forgotten but that their characters wouldn't have should be done without roll, IMO.

[GeneralVryth]

I don't see the point of asking for a roll, here.

The 5e guideline is that in general, a roll should only be called if the consequences for failure and the consequences for success are both interesting.

Reminding the players of things they have forgotten but that their characters wouldn't have should be done without roll, IMO.

It's taste as much as anything. The thought process that lead to it is people who should know better still occasionally do stupid things. Failing a low DC Wis or Int check seems to perfectly encapsulate that. The whole point after all is to be a second chance to a player making a bad decision where they should hopefully know better. It works better if it's an established pattern of having done so for some less game ending decisions as well.

[Fable Wright]

I am now down to two possibilities (other than just letting it play out). The first is doing the hijack thing, and having an Empyrean show up to give them a very clear example of their current power level. That Empyrean would be an agent of Estaes, and it would tell them about her will as it is beating them all up. My largest problem with that is that based on everything else, I am not 100% confident that they would actually be dissuaded.

I am not necessarily convinced that the Empyrean would actually win the fight. I would like to add one component:

You do the contingent teleport. The players land, and the first thing the ranger needs to do is make will saves vs three separate Sympathy effects, spread out like a Venn Diagram to keep him trapped in a single five-foot square in the midst of a ritual array. The rest of the party needs to save against an equal number of Antipathy effects. Several spell Glyphs of Warding trigger for Incendiary Cloud and Maddening Darkness, effectively blinding the party with magical darkness if they can't see through that, and clouds of death if they can. When the ranger realizes that he's going to be forced to sit in the damaging AoEs for their full duration, the Cleric unable to see him (and thus target him with magical healing) or approach him for touch range healing, and they've taken damage from this honestly-pretty-basic trap that a lich lair would have (unlimited 8th level spells in lair make this a really, really low-cost tactic), then they're pulled into the arena with the Empyrean asking why they're handing the lich the win.

A wake-up call to what exactly storming the Lich's lair will be like before bailout should make them much, much more amenable to finding literally any other solution.

Mind you, the lich themselves almost certainly has a Deployment Center where they have about thirty Simulacrum spells in their Glyphs of Warding. When they pull the lever, glyph goes off, Lich Simulacrum springs into existence and triggers a Rary's Telepathic Bond glyph for the lich to see how each skirmish against the party goes... and be able to pull the lever for the next simulacrum the moment the first one dies. The Empyrean can offhandedly mention the Deployment Center if the doorbell didn't give them a wakeup call.

[LumenPlacidum]

They're level 15. Let 'em do it. They either will surprise you and accomplish it and you'll all be amazed or they'll likely have the tools to get away (at least some of them). When the party is that high of a level, success usually is just a matter of them realizing that they have the tool to handle the situation. If they try and fail, they usually have some get-out-of-jail cards.

But, that relies on you not explicitly blocking those emergency cards. A Dispel Magic specifically targeting the Private Sanctum spell followed by a Teleport or Word of Recall and a couple Raise Dead spells usually does wonders.

If they aren't the type of players to prepare GTFO contingencies, then... they'll learn something of hubris? Unless they just win. I'm constantly surprised by the ease with which high level characters punch above their supposed level.

[Darth Credence]

We had the session, and it went well! One player became quite worried about it, and attempted to convince the group to take a different route and kill and resurrect the ranger. The others said no, we're going in, but we're going in carefully.

I let them remain where they were at the tower. I did give them one battle going in, just for some fun, of a vampire and swarms of bats. They took care of that fairly quickly, not using many resources. Then they looked at the tower and decided the lich must be on the top floor, because who isn't on the top floor of a tower? Meanwhile, the lich was actually in the dungeon beneath, so they made sure they were as far as possible from him without knowing it.

This is going to sound silly, but I know my players, and this next bit was perfect for them. They go in through a window on the top floor to find a tiered viewing area in front of an area concealed behind a curtain. The tiered viewing area has a line of chairs, with a corpse in each one. They popped in and saw them, and the corpses (zombies) turned towards them. They also heard some noise from beyond the curtain, of something large moving around. Two of them immediately recognized it as a theater, and one said, 'If the lich is putting on theater performances I'm going to die!' (in a good way), the other responded, "hey, eternity gets boring, you have to have something to do." Yes, that was what was happening. As the zombies dragged one of them under a pile of corpses, the others started throwing fir around. Scores of burning bodies as the one beneath them tried to get out, the party tossing fireballs and dragon's breath around to kill the horde. Then the ogre zombies burst from behind the curtain, and they had to deal with them. I was grunting various Shakespeare quotes, like when one of them died it said, "not... to be". The players started throwing around various quotes as well, with the ranger shooting on and saying "suffer the arrows of outrageous fortune" like it was a Schwarzenneger line. It was great.

Next, they went down to the next level. There, they first found a room piled with corpses. These were not animated, and they closed the door and backed away. Next to that was a room full of coffins, packed tightly enough they couldn't even see the walls through them to know the size of the room. Then they walked down the hall, and got hit by an acid warding glyph. One of them created a zombie to send around doing their bidding - when they followed and set off a fire glyph, they realized that the glyphs did not react to undead. Next, someone summoned a familiar to scout - it immediately died due to the forbiddance that was set up to get everything not undead. Luckily they had a construct. They decided to fabricate a wall into a door. Opened the door, saw they were at the back of a shelf full of potions. Sent the tiny construct in. Shelves everywhere, with an absolutely ridiculous amount of potions. Told the construct to grab one. That set off the warding glyph on the potion (every bottle has one!) destroying the construct. They eventually made took some more damage from glyphs and got the zombie into the room. They had the zombie fill a bag of holding with potions. Came out, one of them picked up one potion from the bag, which of course detonated. They decided to stop with the potions and figure that out later.

Finally, they decided to have the zombie open another door. Then they send in an invisible servant to check it out. They ask the servant to tell them what it saw, and I threw a bone and let it draw for them. So I drew the room on the map, making sure the demon in the magic circle was prominently represented. At this point, they decided that they had already burned too many resources to make it much farther, they hadn't even seen the lich yet, and every step could be deadly. So they teleported back home, and the session ended.

So I am prepping for the next session. They fled back to their base. The lich is enraged at the destruction of his theater - the amount of work it took to get the ogres to perform at even a base level of competence cannot be understated! So he's coming for them, and he is prepared to unleash everything. Should be fun.

[Unoriginal]

So they teleported back home, and the session ended.

The Lich didn't have something forbidding teleportation out of the tower for intruders?

A rather big blind spot in the defenses.

So he's coming for them, and he is prepared to unleash everything. Should be fun.

I mean, it's a good thing everyone had a good time, but isn't that the exact same situation you didn't want to have 14 days ago?


As in, the full-power, not-doing-anything-dumb-on-purpose Lich fighting your PCs until they're a TPK, when they don't have the means to actually destroy him?

Only difference is that the PCs have realized they're outmatched, now.

Again, not saying it was a bad choice considering everyone had a good time, but given that the Lich had nothing to prevent intruders from fleeing, no alarm to warn him intruders were in his tower, and nothing to inform him someone was destroying his prized theater (not to mention the potion room probably costing a pretty penny), it does seems like you "nerfed the Lich/made him act less intelligently than he is to let the group walk away". Especially since the one guy who need to die for the Lich's apotheosis was right here in his tower.


The Lich's tower sounds like a pretty fun dungeon, and it seems you know what your players enjoy well. My only confusion is on how it seems this session didn't really address your concerns.

[Darth Credence]

The Lich didn't have something forbidding teleportation out of the tower for intruders?

A rather big blind spot in the defenses.

Forbiddance prevents teleporting in, not teleporting out. He is much less concerned about things running away from him than coming in. He has private sanctum in his chambers, but not in other parts of the tower.

I mean, it's a good thing everyone had a good time, but isn't that the exact same situation you didn't want to have 14 days ago?


As in, the full-power, not-doing-anything-dumb-on-purpose Lich fighting your PCs until they're a TPK, when they don't have the means to actually destroy him?

Only difference is that the PCs have realized they're outmatched, now.

Again, not saying it was a bad choice considering everyone had a good time, but given that the Lich had nothing to prevent intruders from fleeing, no alarm to warn him intruders were in his tower, and nothing to inform him someone was destroying his prized theater (not to mention the potion room probably costing a pretty penny), it does seems like you "nerfed the Lich/made him act less intelligently than he is to let the group walk away". Especially since the one guy who need to die for the Lich's apotheosis was right here in his tower.


The Lich's tower sounds like a pretty fun dungeon, and it seems you know what your players enjoy well. My only confusion is on how it seems this session didn't really address your concerns.

Not at all. First, he did have alarms knowing where they were the entire time. He was just in the middle of something, and expected them to come to him. They took a decent chunk of the potion room, but the potion room was basically always a trap. The potions are overwhelmingly poisons, since he doesn't have much use for them. The lich knew they were there from the beginning, because he sent the vampire out with orders to let them in, but make them work for it, because the tower was where the defenses were. He continued doing research while waiting for them. When the party destroyed the theater, he knew, and was enraged, but going in right then to confront them when he still expected them to come to him was not his plan - his plan was his standard make them spend resources to deal with cannon fodder, so they would be weak when they got to him. When they left, the lich realized they weren't going to come to him, so it's time to bring the fight to them.

But the fundamental difference is now there is a reason to have him come to them, and they have an army back home. There are several other PCs at approximately their level back at the base, and a literal army of goblins loyal to them. We have gone from a place where the lich would certainly win simply because of the number of traps present to affect them, to a place where the lich does not have prepared ground and will be facing a substantial number of foes on the players' side. Can they win this battle? They will probably succeed in driving off the lich. But I highly doubt they will kill the lich, especially given his contingency. As I see it, everything is now completely different.

[Unoriginal]

As I see it, everything is now completely different.

Thank you for providing the additional context. I agree with you, it is indeed extremely different.

[KorvinStarmast]

If you want to take down a lich, you can scale down this attempt to take down a dracolich. Pour a keg of holy water onto him. Their problem set becomes "how do I get close to him" and that can take some doing.

Hero's Feast cast before this helps.
Immune to poison. Can go down after the phylactery once they wax him.
(Hmm, not sure if your spell casters can cast that spell. Worth paying for if this is a world ending threat).

If there is a paladin, aura gives fear immunity. Sadly, no paladin.

Starting at 10th level, you and friendly creatures within 10 feet of you can’t be frightened while you are conscious.

At 18th level, the range of this aura increases to 30 feet.

Our party took down a mind flayer lich at level 11:
1 paladin (glory)
1 bard (lore)
1 warlock (hexblade)
1 sorcerer/warlock
(yes, the party did get a few lucky rolls).

One PC died during the fight. (but revivify was cast before time expired). IIRC, bard counter-spelled as often as she did anything else.

That said, the DM didn't have the lich's layered defenses as intense as you have orchestrated. Our group likely would not have been able to pull this one off; not at level 11. At 15? I think the four of us might have managed it. At 17, when I was able to cast foresight on either the paladin or hex blade? Yes.

As this is the end game boss, if they try it now and they fail, they die.
Jack Phoenix has the right of it. They will learn.

The fighter Sidekick seems to be key to your party's success. (See the linked post on pouring holy water all over a draco lich).
He carries a 10 gallon keg filled with holy water. Your wizard/cleric can make this. Your party at that level should have the gold to afford this.

8 pints per gallon x 10 gallons x 2d6 radiant damage per pint = about 560 average radiant damage.

Yes, this solution is inspired by the upcoming Super Bowl, in which some player on the winning team will dump a cooler full of Gatorade onto the winning coach's head. (I blame Harry Carson for starting this tradition ...)

[Darth Credence]

If anyone wants to hear how it went, here goes.

Lich army attacks, focusing on killing their goblin citizens as payback for them killing his zombies. Two of the players make a run for the Gate that the bad guys are coming through. The burn some dimension door spells to get there, leaving the ranger alone. But they successfully dispel the gate, preventing most of the army from making it through.

Special guest player - an old PC Bloodhunter who can't play regularly but came back for this - held the line at the cave entrance, burning every bit of magic they had to try to save as many goblins as possible. He played so far beyond his normal play it was incredible - spell storing ring, his few warlock spells, firing from his crossbow as they approached then throwing it away and diving into melee. It was great. In the end, he was overwhelmed, and sacrificed himself by caving in the entrance to the mine, saving about 80% of the goblins and killing a lot of bad guys.

Then there was the ranger. He flew in on his drake, and decided to attack the rear of the army, by himself. He killed a couple of enemies in his first shot, which drew attention to him. He called for help, but at that point, the closest ally was about 800 feet away. He backed up, firing as he went, but underestimated who he was fighting. In the end, he was the only one who went down, while the rest of the group won what they were doing. They brought him back to life, but the lich had already succeeded, and is now the Aspect of Evil. The lich, who had teleported in while invisible, cast the gate spell, then hid out to watch, left when he felt the ranger die.

They do, however, have a plan. They have dealt with Aspects before, sealing them away so that they anchor the point but can't actually do anything. So they found out what the Artifact they needed to anchor him to was, and are now on a search for a different old PC (this one was one a player changed to for a while to mix things up, then went back to his original character right before this), because that PC has a sentient sword that will help with sealing him away. They found out about the ritual that the lich is preparing for to enforce his power over some lesser Aspects subordinate to Evil, and they are also going to meet with one of them to enlist her help. The ritual must be done in a specific place, so they are preparing an ambush there.

It's going to be difficult, and we'll have a full session of them moving around the continent getting ready for it, but it's shaping up to be a fun, hard but winnable combat.