Wizards and upcasting

[paladinn]

Hola all,

So wizards have long been considered to be the "apex" class in D&D. That definitely hasn't changed in 5e. Even tho spell effects have been limited to spell level, all the flexibility is still there. And as of 5e, all casters are "spontaneous." I think that's a good thing, personally: "Vancian" fire-and-forget has long been a pet peeve. But there's also the ability to upcast a spell with a higher level slot to get a more powerful effect.

Wizards, more than any other casters, are supposed to be all about the preparation. They are typically a lot more bookish and studious and that is reflected in their flexibility. But now, since everyone is "spontaneous", what is the real attraction to playing a sorcerer, other than the special-themed subclasses and being Cha-based?

Here's my thought: should wizard be prohibited from upcasting? When they prepare a spell, should it be prepared for a specific spell-level-slot? That would prevent the 3rd-level fireball from being cast with a 9th level slot for a nuclear strike. It would still allow all the flexibility, still be "spontaneous", but also leave room for sorcerers to be the party's nuke.

Any thoughts?

[Unoriginal]

So wizards have long been considered to be the "apex" class in D&D.

Highly debatable. Cleric and Druids were considered more powerful during the 3.X era, for obvious reasons.

Wizard also weren't considered more powerful in 4e, and in the editions before 3.X where it took longer to level up as a Wizard it was mostly a theoretical thing.

That definitely hasn't changed in 5e.

If anything, it changed in 5e because now more people consider Wizard to be "apex".

Even tho spell effects have been limited to spell level, all the flexibility is still there. And as of 5e, all casters are "spontaneous." I think that's a good thing, personally: "Vancian" fire-and-forget has long been a pet peeve. But there's also the ability to upcast a spell with a higher level slot to get a more powerful effect.

Wizards, more than any other casters, are supposed to be all about the preparation. They are typically a lot more bookish and studious and that is reflected in their flexibility. But now, since everyone is "spontaneous"

Wizards still have to prepare their spells for the day, and unlike Clerics for example they don't have all the PHB's spell list to choose from.

So Wizards do need to think about preparation when they choose their spells with each level, and think about preparatin each day when selecting off the curated list they have in their spellbook.

what is the real attraction to playing a sorcerer, other than the special-themed subclasses and being Cha-based?

Metamagic.

Also spell recovery.

Here's my thought: should wizard be prohibited from upcasting? When they prepare a spell, should it be prepared for a specific spell-level-slot? That would prevent the 3rd-level fireball from being cast with a 9th level slot for a nuclear strike. It would still allow all the flexibility, still be "spontaneous", but also leave room for sorcerers to be the party's nuke.

Any thoughts?

This would have next to no impact on Sorcerers being the party's nukes.

There is basically no reason to ever cast Fireball with a 9th level spell slot, for example. Blasting spells aren't where upcasting has a real impact.

[Psyren]

But now, since everyone is "spontaneous", what is the real attraction to playing a sorcerer, other than the special-themed subclasses and being Cha-based?

Con save proficiency, metamagic, and slot flexibility. Also the two you listed appear to be getting glossed over or dismissed but they are material.

Here's my thought: should wizard be prohibited from upcasting?

No - upcast spells are generally weaker than on-level or closer-level spells that do the same thing. Compare a 9th-level fireball to Meteor Swarm, or an 8th-level one to Sunburst for example.

When they prepare a spell, should it be prepared for a specific spell-level-slot? That would prevent the 3rd-level fireball from being cast with a 9th level slot for a nuclear strike. It would still allow all the flexibility, still be "spontaneous", but also leave room for sorcerers to be the party's nuke.

Any thoughts?

See above - if your player is blowing their 9th-level slot on fireball they're actually being very suboptimal. That's not an issue at all at that level, much less one that necessitates altering the rules.

[paladinn]

It just seems like if wizards are all about the preparation, they could be limited to casting a spell As Prepared. If s/he wants to cast a spell at a higher level, s/he should have to prepare it that way.

I really don't see clerics, for example, working the same way. Their spells are "answers to prayer", if you will.

For sorcerers, the rule-bending, shaping, metamagic, upcasting, etc. becomes their "thing." Wizards might be able to cast a greater variety of spells, but sorcerers can do more with what they have.

[Keltest]

It just seems like if wizards are all about the preparation, they could be limited to casting a spell As Prepared. If s/he wants to cast a spell at a higher level, s/he should have to prepare it that way.

I really don't see clerics, for example, working the same way. Their spells are "answers to prayer", if you will.

For sorcerers, the rule-bending, shaping, metamagic, upcasting, etc. becomes their "thing." Wizards might be able to cast a greater variety of spells, but sorcerers can do more with what they have.

I for one am perfectly fine with stepping away from the paradigm of having to dedicate the equivalent mental energy to getting a bachelors degree just to play a spellcaster in D&D. A wizard who prepares the right spells is still significantly stronger than one who just keeps a bunch of low level spells around that they upcast. See the fireball vs meteor swarm example.

[Psyren]

It just seems like if wizards are all about the preparation, they could be limited to casting a spell As Prepared. If s/he wants to cast a spell at a higher level, s/he should have to prepare it that way.

I really don't see clerics, for example, working the same way. Their spells are "answers to prayer", if you will.

For sorcerers, the rule-bending, shaping, metamagic, upcasting, etc. becomes their "thing." Wizards might be able to cast a greater variety of spells, but sorcerers can do more with what they have.

Metamagic already does this without barring wizards from upcasting, though. And even if you don't want to use it, sorcerers can simply convert the points into more ammunition than wizards get.

[tieren]

True Story:

In my last campaign the DM threw us at a high level wizard, who had taken Armor of Agathys through a feat and during the fight blew his 9th, 8th, and 7th level slots recasting upcast armor of agathys.

Martials were taking massive damage every time they attacked and the guy had a mountain of temporary hp we kept having to chew through taking damage all the while (we were a melee heavy group).

Me: "I hit with 3 of my sword attacks, doing 16, 14, and 13 damage respectively"

DM: "nice, take 135 cold damage, the frost rime seems significantly depleted but the enemy seems unharmed"

[Psyren]

True Story:

In my last campaign the DM threw us at a high level wizard, who had taken Armor of Agathys through a feat and during the fight blew his 9th, 8th, and 7th level slots recasting upcast armor of agathys.

Martials were taking massive damage every time they attacked and the guy had a mountain of temporary hp we kept having to chew through taking damage all the while (we were a melee heavy group).

Me: "I hit with 3 of my sword attacks, doing 16, 14, and 13 damage respectively"

DM: "nice, take 135 cold damage, the frost rime seems significantly depleted but the enemy seems unharmed"

If that wizard had cast Shapechange with that 9th level slot instead they would have had a ton more effective HP than 45, and still had their 8th and 7th level slots available, so I'd say the DM was pulling his punches.

[J-H]

True Story:

In my last campaign the DM threw us at a high level wizard, who had taken Armor of Agathys through a feat and during the fight blew his 9th, 8th, and 7th level slots recasting upcast armor of agathys.

Martials were taking massive damage every time they attacked and the guy had a mountain of temporary hp we kept having to chew through taking damage all the while (we were a melee heavy group).

Me: "I hit with 3 of my sword attacks, doing 16, 14, and 13 damage respectively"

DM: "nice, take 135 cold damage, the frost rime seems significantly depleted but the enemy seems unharmed"

"I grapple him. He needs to make an Athletics check against... 22."
"I shove his head underwater. He can't talk underwater well enough to cast spells, right?"
"There's no water? Fine, I pick him up and use him as a weapon to hit the wall three times. I'm not damaging him, the wall is!"

Athletics pairs well with creativity.

[KorvinStarmast]

Some Non-damaging spells that I like to up cast:

1. Fly. (A bunch of us get to fly, not just me)
2. Invisibility (More of us get to be invisible, not just me) (Cue Monty Python 'Trying Not To Be Seen' sketch)
3. Banishment: I'll send two of you into time out, not just 1
4. Blindness/Deafness (better as spell save DC goes up): Three or Four of you can't see or hear us.
5. Bestow Curse - at highest level: uh, you are hosed until you find a magic user/cleric who can dispell this one, bud.
6. (In Tier 3-4) Etherealness: two or three of us get to wander about and walk through walls to scout ahead through the mountain.
7. Fog Cloud: that's a big darn fog cloud that obscures the vision of everyone in the town square ...
8. Conjure Animals, level 5: "We have four Giant eagles/Giant Owls that can fly us to where we are going for an hour. (Cue Steve miller band "I've got to fly like an eagle, to the sea ...)

Those are off the top of my head.

[Sorinth]

Upcasting is generally not very strong so I don't think it would give you what your looking for.


Perhaps doing something like using the spell point variant but they have to lock in the slots at LR (Arcane Recovery giving some small flexibility at SR). So they have the flexibility to manage their slot allocation but it gets locked in and so gives that preparation feel. Then if the Sorcerer used the spell point system as is then they would have that in the moment flexibility.


That said my personal take on the theme/direction of the Wizard class would probably be very few spell slots, but being able to ritual cast any spell they have access too. So they have that out of combat flexibility of having a spell that will help any and every situation, but are limited by the ritual casting constraints (Which would also change from just the current 10min).

[Sigreid]

I think my most commonly upcast damage spell is Magic Missile, when I think the opponent doesn't have that much health left and I absolutely have to shut him down.

[Schwann145]

Highly debatable. Cleric and Druids were considered more powerful during the 3.X era, for obvious reasons.

CoDzillas were considered the "most problematic" because their ability to self-buff to be better than the martials, while still having spells left, made them problematic and stomped hard on many classes toes.
But Wizards were still top of the food chain as far as overall power was concerned. Heck, it only takes a single action for a high-enough level Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil Wizard to utterly annihilate any buffed CoDzilla!

[Rukelnikov]

CoDzillas were considered the "most problematic" because their ability to self-buff to be better than the martials, while still having spells left, made them problematic and stomped hard on many classes toes.
But Wizards were still top of the food chain as far as overall power was concerned. Heck, it only takes a single action for a high-enough level Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil Wizard to utterly annihilate any buffed CoDzilla!

This, 3e Wizards were definitely stronger than Clerics or Druids, the only challenger to their crown was the Spells to Powers Erudite.

[Unoriginal]

CoDzillas were considered the "most problematic" because their ability to self-buff to be better than the martials, while still having spells left, made them problematic and stomped hard on many classes toes.
But Wizards were still top of the food chain as far as overall power was concerned. Heck, it only takes a single action for a high-enough level Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil Wizard to utterly annihilate any buffed CoDzilla!

One, a busted Prestige Class is not an indicator of the power level of a base class.

Two, the capacity for PvP is not an indicator of power level either.

Three, 3.5 Wizards love stacking self-buffs too.

Four, there's nothing preventing a Cleric from taking the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil Prestige Class, and I don't think there the Druid is prevented either. Although that could make pretty awkward builds if not planned from day 1.

That means that it only takes a single action for a high-eough level Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil CoDzilla to utterly annihilate any buffy Wizard, too.

Wizards may have had more shenanigans overall, but in term of raw power the CoDzilla were supreme, while still having a lot of the shenanigans working for them.

[Schwann145]

One, a busted Prestige Class is not an indicator of the power level of a base class.

Two, the capacity for PvP is not an indicator of power level either.

Three, 3.5 Wizards love stacking self-buffs too.

Four, there's nothing preventing a Cleric from taking the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil Prestige Class, and I don't think there the Druid is prevented either. Although that could make pretty awkward builds if not planned from day 1.

That means that it only takes a single action for a high-eough level Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil CoDzilla to utterly annihilate any buffy Wizard, too.

Wizards may have had more shenanigans overall, but in term of raw power the CoDzilla were supreme, while still having a lot of the shenanigans working for them.

1) No, of course not. I was just throwing out an arcane PrC that annihilates the CoDzilla strategy with one action as an example of the kind of support that arcane casters got.
2) Humanoid NPCs were class-based, so "pvp" is totally an indicator of power level, even though you won't be using your spells and abilities against your fellow players.
3) Sure, everybody who could did.
4) Technically no, although I'd say grinding your divine spell progression to a halt just for the PrC is doing a lot of preventing.

Long story short: The Wizard was king in 3.5 for two primary reasons: 1) it benefited from the same consideration that the 5e Wizard does in that it has a massively superior spell list to draw from (even considering how much better the Divine lists were back then!), and 2) the class wasn't full of dead levels the way a Cleric was (you could get free metamagic or item creation feats, which was a huge boon).
CoDzillas were better than Sorcerers and Bards, but Wizards still ruled as King of the Hill.

[Mastikator]

...why would a wizard prepare a 9th level fireball when meteor swarm does way more damage, covers a much bigger area, and has way bigger range?

The best spells to upcast isn't the blasty ones, it's the buffs and debuffs, invisibility, fly, hold person, etc. Wizards are not overpowered because they can upcast fireball, they're overpowered because of problematic spells like force cage and simulacrum. A 5th level wizard is not notably more powerful than a 5th level bard, or even a paladin for that matter.

[Sigreid]

CoDzillas were considered the "most problematic" because their ability to self-buff to be better than the martials, while still having spells left, made them problematic and stomped hard on many classes toes.
But Wizards were still top of the food chain as far as overall power was concerned. Heck, it only takes a single action for a high-enough level Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil Wizard to utterly annihilate any buffed CoDzilla!

But even then it was usually much more efficient to buff the fighter, send him into a room and hold the door shut until the screaming stopped. Buffs take you higher than where you are, so start higher for better effect.

[Rukelnikov]

But even then it was usually much more efficient to buff the fighter, send him into a room and hold the door shut until the screaming stopped. Buffs take you higher than where you are, so start higher for better effect.

Many of the most powerful buffs were self only, like Wraithstrike (all your melee attacks become touch attacks)

[Schwann145]

Many of the most powerful buffs were self only, like Wraithstrike (all your melee attacks become touch attacks)

Bingo.

Divine Power made you "Fighter but better" and was self-cast only.
Righteous Might took you to the next level... and was also self-cast only.
Druids didn't have DP/RM like Clerics did... but their Wild Shape and full-power Animal Companion made up for it and then some.
Then when you stack on other buffs or heals or control spells that the Fighter types didn't have access to, they got left behind real quick.

But then all of this, while very impressive, was still nothing compared to the Arcane list, bolstered with metamagic and such.

[Theodoxus]

A 5th level wizard is not notably more powerful than a 5th level bard, or even a paladin for that matter.

Is it any wonder so many campaigns (and AL in particular) don't make it out of tier 1? Tier 2 only really starts to be problematic when spells start bypassing challenges. Tier 3, I've yet to play or run anything in tier 3 that wasn't a one shot. The closest I got was a 12th level campaign that ended when a cleric got a lucky Divine Intervention roll and essentially wished the campaign to end. (Not literally wished, but used the gods' power to defeat the bbeg after the party was nearly wiped out.)

I like the idea of capping all spells at 6th level, and turning all 7th-9th level spells into ritual only. Wanna cast Meteor Swarm? It's gonna take a bit to bring down on someone's head. Other spells, like Wish, might be limited to a special spell storing device. A ring, a lamp, etc.

Then, have a section in the DMG that has a section on Epic Level Adventuring that unlocks those rituals as spells in their current incarnation. So those that enjoy running and playing in tier 4 can do so unfettered. But the base presumption isn't 'Level up to 20 as fast as you can and then play the End Game' like so many video games do. It's like a sanctioned E12. Larian lead the way in popularizing the idea for the main stream.

[KorvinStarmast]

...why would a wizard prepare a 9th level fireball when meteor swarm does way more damage, covers a much bigger area, and has way bigger range?

Why indeed.

The best spells to upcast isn't the blasty ones, it's the buffs and debuffs, invisibility, fly, hold person, etc.

Per my post.

A 5th level wizard is not notably more powerful than a 5th level bard, or even a paladin for that matter.

I noticed the same thing.

I like the idea of capping all spells at 6th level, and turning all 7th-9th level spells into ritual only. Wanna cast Meteor Swarm? It's gonna take a bit to bring down on someone's head. Other spells, like Wish, might be limited to a special spell storing device. A ring, a lamp, etc.

Then, have a section in the DMG that has a section on Epic Level Adventuring that unlocks those rituals as spells in their current incarnation. So those that enjoy running and playing in tier 4 can do so unfettered. But the base presumption isn't 'Level up to 20 as fast as you can and then play the End Game' like so many video games do. It's like a sanctioned E12. Larian lead the way in popularizing the idea for the main stream.

I like this idea, but apparently the "we have an app for that" crowd at WotC does not.

[Witty Username]

I like the idea of capping all spells at 6th level, and turning all 7th-9th level spells into ritual only. Wanna cast Meteor Swarm? It's gonna take a bit to bring down on someone's head. Other spells, like Wish, might be limited to a special spell storing device. A ring, a lamp, etc.

I generally dislike solutions of this kind for the general game. It works, but it also more or less admits that high level play has nothing to offer for non and partial casters.

I liked epic 6 back in the day, but as a solution removing the game past 6th level feels lacking.

[Kane0]

I think my most commonly upcast damage spell is Magic Missile, when I think the opponent doesn't have that much health left and I absolutely have to shut him down.

God how I wish it were two extra missiles per higher level, or at least 1.5