PHB U8 Survey Results Released

[Kane0]

Yeah sure, DS lost some functionality with the action cost and being a spell now, but with the buffs to all the other smite spells-

You get PB smites per short rest and PBd8 radiant (or necrotic?) damage on each divine smite if you hit.

Both of these hit some snags with multiclassing, if that bothers you.

[Psyren]

Both of these hit some snags with multiclassing, if that bothers you.

I'm not seeing the issue personally. Most Paladin multiclasses will be Pal 2 (DS/SeS/TS), Pal 6 (EA, Subclass, Aura, ShS) or Pal 7 (Subclass 2, extra slot) ... maaaaybe Pal 9 for Abjure Foes, BS and 3rd-level spells. I think what you gain from those breakpoints is well-balanced with what you give up personally.

[Blatant Beast]

As you yourself said though, eyeballing and reading are effective - so the number of "true playtests", even ones that are recorded or otherwise provable, matters a lot less than you imply..

You are overlooking that comparing cleric subclasses between 5e options can be eyeballed because the most important driver of cleric power, the spell list, is normalized for 5e options.

Comparing the 5e Cleric to One D&D Cleric is a devilishly difficult task, because:
1) The spell list and spells themselves have not been finalised
2) The Design Focus of the One D&D Cleric has changed, compared to the 5e Cleric.

The One D&D Cleric is moving options away from the subclass and spells, to being options included as part of the base class.

I have no idea if adding Concentration to the Spiritual Weapon spell, while at the same time building in native support for martial weapons usage and cleric smites, as One D&D does, enhances or acts a a detrimental factor to cleric power when compared to the 5e cleric.

Subtleties, like that are very difficult to grasp by “eyeballing”, one really needs to test it.

The low number of published spells, in One D&D is itself a barrier to accurate testing.

If the cleric base chassis for One D&D is enhanced, and presumably the spells of One D&D are going to be powered down, running an One D&D cleric with 5e spells, is not very accurate play testing. Obviously, the stronger One D&D chassis combined with 5e spells will out perform the 5e cleric.

[Psyren]

The One D&D Cleric is moving options away from the subclass and spells, to being options included as part of the base class.

It's not a zero-sum game though, they can add to/buff both. See Trickery and Light for example.

I have no idea if adding Concentration to the Spiritual Weapon spell, while at the same time building in native support for martial weapons usage and cleric smites, as One D&D does, enhances or acts a a detrimental factor to cleric power when compared to the 5e cleric.

Subtleties, like that are very difficult to grasp by “eyeballing”, one really needs to test it.

The smite thing was reverted since we're going back to class lists, and while I don't think Spiritual Weapon needs concentration either, I highly doubt nerfing one spell is going to materially change the cleric's power to the point that testing is needed to form a valid conclusion.

[Blatant Beast]

The smite thing was reverted since we're going back to class lists, and while I don't think Spiritual Weapon needs concentration either, I highly doubt nerfing one spell is going to materially change the cleric's power to the point that testing is needed to form a valid conclusion.

We absolutely know that more than the Spiritual Weapon spell is being altered by One D&D.

The 5e Cleric’s power rests upon careful selection of spells to fill one’s limited spell preparation slots. Clerics have no spells, (or almost none), that have a Reaction cast trigger. Clerics, do have a number of spells that require Concentration, and a smaller number of spells that can be cast as a Bonus Action.

Spiritual Weapon, fills a critical niche for a cleric. Spiritual Weapon, does not require Concentration, can be cast or used as a Bonus Action, has a decent enough rate of Upcast scaling power, and allows a cleric character to apply damage pressure during an Encounter while still being able to cast other spells or use Channel Divinity powers.

5e, in the system’s wisdom, correctly divined that a cleric only being able to heal, or buff during their turn was not particularly satisfying….hence options like Spirtual Weapon.

While Spiritual Weapon, as a spell, is not as central to the cleric class’ identity as Eldritch Blast is to a Warlock, Spiritual Weapon is definitely a Cleric Touchstone spell.

If Spiritual Weapon is being changed, then we need to know what other Bonus Action, that applies damage pressure to the enemy, and does not require Concentration is going to take Spiritual Weapon’s place, because the need still exists……at this point we don’t know.

Until we have the full cleric spell list, we will not know if, or how Spiritual Weapon’s niche was filled for One D&D.

Seems like something, WotC would want to have tested?
If you take your car to a mechanic, and the mechanic swaps out a major component of your car’s engine, typically the mechanic is going to test drive the car, before returning it to you.

[lall]

My guess is Spiritual Weapon won’t be changed. The concentration version was earlier in the playtest when they were more experimental in a nerfy sort of way.

[Psyren]

We absolutely know that more than the Spiritual Weapon spell is being altered by One D&D.

Right, but it's a mix of buffs and nerfs. Cure Wounds and Healing Word have been nearly doubled in potency for instance. But unless they alter the truly impactful staples like Bless or Spirit Guardians or Dispel Magic or Revivify, which we've gotten no indication they will, Clerics' power or usefulness are not going to materially shift.

The 5e Cleric’s power rests upon careful selection of spells to fill one’s limited spell preparation slots. Clerics have no spells, (or almost none), that have a Reaction cast trigger. Clerics, do have a number of spells that require Concentration, and a smaller number of spells that can be cast as a Bonus Action.

Spiritual Weapon, fills a critical niche for a cleric. Spiritual Weapon, does not require Concentration, can be cast or used as a Bonus Action, has a decent enough rate of Upcast scaling power, and allows a cleric character to apply damage pressure during an Encounter while still being able to cast other spells or use Channel Divinity powers.

5e, in the system’s wisdom, correctly divined that a cleric only being able to heal, or buff during their turn was not particularly satisfying….hence options like Spirtual Weapon.

While Spiritual Weapon, as a spell, is not as central to the cleric class’ identity as Eldritch Blast is to a Warlock, Spiritual Weapon is definitely a Cleric Touchstone spell.

If Spiritual Weapon is being changed, then we need to know what other Bonus Action, that applies damage pressure to the enemy, and does not require Concentration is going to take Spiritual Weapon’s place, because the need still exists……at this point we don’t know.

Until we have the full cleric spell list, we will not know if, or how Spiritual Weapon’s niche was filled for One D&D

I don't see that as a "need" for the reasons above. A cleric who is not using their bonus action to apply a small amount of damage each round... is still a cleric.

[KorvinStarmast]

Both of these hit some snags with multiclassing, if that bothers you.

Good point. Cha mod times per SR might be the better idea, but that probably makes it too powerful if you don't tie it to spell slots. Will rethink. Or, CHA mod times per LR (similar to the original level 1 ability Divine Sense) with HD being tied to proficiency bonus. Higher level Paladins smite harder.

[Blatant Beast]

Psyren, it seems self evident to me, that almost all players would rather be able to cast Bless, and get in an attack from Spiritual Weapon, as opposed to just using their turn to cast Bless.

Historically, clerics tend to be the least popular class, because many people do not enjoy being relegated to ‘healbot’ status.

We could probably start an entirely separate discussion about the efficacy and wisdom of boosting the impact of the cure spells in One D&D vs other areas of design opportunity.

Healing Word is useful as an emergency heal, but a standard strategy I have seen in play, is that groups try to avoid in combat healing as much as possible, and rely upon out of combat healing through Prayer of Healing, Aura of Vitality, or Short Rests.

I can only speak for myself, but many of the design focus decisions that One D&D has made I find odd.

[Psyren]

Blatant Beast - I'm not saying that a cleric who can SW swing while concentrating on Bless isn't better off than one that can't. I'm saying that I can still make valid conclusions about Cleric power without actually playing the two, and that conclusion is that the latter Cleric might be slightly less powerful but is still powerful. In my opinion, you're putting too much weight on the validity of feedback that is driven by actual playtests (which we have no way of corroborating anyway) as opposed to feedback that is driven by reading and discussion.

[stoutstien]

Psyren, it seems self evident to me, that almost all players would rather be able to cast Bless, and get in an attack from Spiritual Weapon, as opposed to just using their turn to cast Bless.

Historically, clerics tend to be the least popular class, because many people do not enjoy being relegated to ‘healbot’ status.

We could probably start an entirely separate discussion about the efficacy and wisdom of boosting the impact of the cure spells in One D&D vs other areas of design opportunity.

Healing Word is useful as an emergency heal, but a standard strategy I have seen in play, is that groups try to avoid in combat healing as much as possible, and rely upon out of combat healing through Prayer of Healing, Aura of Vitality, or Short Rests.

I can only speak for myself, but many of the design focus decisions that One D&D has made I find odd.

In my opinion the popularity of clerics has never had anything to do with their mechanics. It's always been the headache with dealing with a moral centric class attached to a naturalistic Pantheon.
It's hard to really get into a character if you're supposed to be worshiping a god of law when that God can make decisions that are both lawful and chaos at any given time even if they are "beyond" the idea of philosophical distinction on that level of understanding. Paladins fall in a similar place but hitting stuff is fun so it tends to get glossed over quicker but both hide this problem the same way by being powerful enough to disregard the problem.

[Kane0]

Good point. Cha mod times per SR might be the better idea, but that probably makes it too powerful if you don't tie it to spell slots. Will rethink. Or, CHA mod times per LR (similar to the original level 1 ability Divine Sense) with HD being tied to proficiency bonus. Higher level Paladins smite harder.

I should probably have clarified, if my idea for smites to be a function of channels were to be implemented then there would be other changes to go along with that. Smite spells removed entirely, two channels per short rest with a third in tier 3 or so, base damage scales with prof bonus and your choice of oath adds a rider to your smites. Then maybe change lay on hands to be the other base function of your channel, with oath again adding various riders.

Then the half casting can be more focused towards supplemental buffs and healing with the occasional offensive spell. Oath would probably play a large part in that.

[Schwann145]

Cleric has a long-standing tradition of "always prepare Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians," because their spell list can be described as "very-important-but-also-quite-boring-and-for-whatever-reason-the-devs-absolutely-refuse-to-flesh-out-domain/deity-specific-spell-support-outside-of-a-small-handful-of-"on-theme"-spells-which-leaves-all-Clerics-feelings-like-copies-of-one-another-despite-having-wildly-different-faiths."

tl;dr - The class needs an overhaul to make the mechanics match the theme, and that overhaul is never coming.
So, even a small nerf to a spell like Spiritual Weapon can have drastic impact on the popularity/playability of the class.

[titi]

I should probably have clarified, if my idea for smites to be a function of channels were to be implemented then there would be other changes to go along with that. Smite spells removed entirely, two channels per short rest with a third in tier 3 or so, base damage scales with prof bonus and your choice of oath adds a rider to your smites. Then maybe change lay on hands to be the other base function of your channel, with oath again adding various riders.

Then the half casting can be more focused towards supplemental buffs and healing with the occasional offensive spell. Oath would probably play a large part in that.

I feel like if you channel divinity has the option between healing and dealing damage, then dealing damage is going to be the vastly superior option almost everytime a'd healing will just be the trap option

[KorvinStarmast]

Cleric has a long-standing tradition of "always prepare Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians," because their spell list can be described as "very-important-but-also-quite-boring-and-for-whatever-reason-the-devs-absolutely-refuse-to-flesh-out-domain/deity-specific-spell-support-outside-of-a-small-handful-of-"on-theme"-spells-which-leaves-all-Clerics-feelings-like-copies-of-one-another-despite-having-wildly-different-faiths."

Not sure where you got this idea, outside of the internet echo chamber. In the games I have played, Spirit Guardian is rarely used by clerics. Spiritual weapon is much more common at our tables.

So, even a small nerf to a spell like Spiritual Weapon can have drastic impact on the popularity/playability of the class.

There was nothing in Spiritual Weapon that needed to be changed or fixed. That's part of the "tinker because we can, not because we have a competent idea" that's been going on.

As but one example: If you have six encounters per day, and you use Spirit Guardian and Spiritual weapon in each combat, you run out of spell slots faster than you run out of encounters. (Unless you up cast and thus disable powerful spells like Banishment or Greater Restoration ...)

At level six, how many first level slots does a cleric have, and how many second?
People complaining about that combo must be presuming a 5 minute work day.

As to Smite:

I like the BA smite spells and concentration being removed. But a generic smite with no rider stil appeals to me. Kane has pointed out that the PB idea gets tangly with multiclassing, so I'll go back to Con Mod.

Con mod D8s per smite, and "Con mod +1" times per long rest like Divine Sense was. Thise creates a choice/opportunity cost for boosting generic smite damage.
Add a d8 against fiends and undead.
And one smite per turn. (But if you get an OA, a smite is available if there are any left.

[Jakinbandw]

Not sure where you got this idea, outside of the internet echo chamber. In the games I have played, Spirit Guardian is rarely used by clerics. Spiritual weapon is much more common at our tables.
There was nothing in Spiritual Weapon that needed to be changed or fixed. That's part of the "tinker because we can, not because we have a competent idea" that's been going on.

As but one example: If you have six encounters per day, and you use Spirit Guardian and Spiritual weapon in each combat, you run out of spell slots faster than you run out of encounters. (Unless you up cast and thus disable powerful spells like Banishment or Greater Restoration ...)

At level six, how many first level slots does a cleric have, and how many second?
People complaining about that combo must be presuming a 5 minute work day.

Clerics have 4 first level, 3 second level, and 3 third level.

Thing is that spirit guardians lasts 10 minutes, so you can clear most of a dungeon in 10 minutes (and you shouldn't be moving slower as otherwise you're giving the locals a chance to react). If time matters, then spirit guardians lasts long enough. If it doesn't, then you can long rest freely.

This means you can do that combo for 6 encounter at level 6 with a second level slot and 1-2 third level slots free for utility.

Or, if you want real cheese, a human cleric can subtle cast spirit guardians and then get invisibility and pass without trace cast on them. At level 6 this gives a result of a +20 with advantage to sneak around and murder everyone unseen.

[KorvinStarmast]

Clerics have 4 first level, 3 second level, and 3 third level.

I am aware of that. The first level spells do no good for the combo that requires level 2 and 3 spells. .

Thing is that spirit guardians lasts 10 minutes, so you can clear most of a dungeon in 10 minutes.

a few objections to this blithe assertion
(1) Sixty rounds of combat in a row? Uh, no. The party will be out of HP long before that.
(2) Assuming encounters are that close in time. Sometimes, they are, sometimes they are not.
(3) Concentration. One failed con save and there goes your spell slot. Seen that happen more than once on the cleric who does like to use it.
(4) Spiritual Weapon, on the other hand, stays up without concentration. What I have seem most often with that is cantrip plus W or Dodge plus SW, depending on the battle.

If it doesn't, then you can long rest freely.

Whoa, long rest is after the 6 encounters I posited. your math failed there. You cannot assumed that you can get two for one out of each casting, nor can you assume that you will never lose concentration. I have played clerics quite a bit. l

This means you can do that combo for 6 encounter at level 6 with a second level slot and 1-2 third level slots free for utility.

SG is a 3rd level spell. SW is a 2d level spell.
No, you can't, and I pointed out why.

Your white room assumptions do not reflect actual play, but, in some 'dungeon crawl' set ups that might work out with two encounters being temporally adjacent AND the cleric not losing concentration. In that case, this can occasionally work out if the stars align.

Beyond that, each encounter varies in what the enemy does/is doing; you can't assume that a given encounter is a crowd of mooks.

On the other hand, if you wade into a bunch of zombies with SG up, yeah, it's pretty effective.

Or, if you want real cheese, a human cleric can subtle cast spirit guardians and then get invisibility and pass without trace cast on them. At level 6 this gives a result of a +20 with advantage to sneak around and murder everyone unseen.

How many times have you done this in actual play?

[Waazraath]

Clerics have 4 first level, 3 second level, and 3 third level.

Thing is that spirit guardians lasts 10 minutes, so you can clear most of a dungeon in 10 minutes (and you shouldn't be moving slower as otherwise you're giving the locals a chance to react). If time matters, then spirit guardians lasts long enough. If it doesn't, then you can long rest freely.

This means you can do that combo for 6 encounter at level 6 with a second level slot and 1-2 third level slots free for utility.

Or, if you want real cheese, a human cleric can subtle cast spirit guardians and then get invisibility and pass without trace cast on them. At level 6 this gives a result of a +20 with advantage to sneak around and murder everyone unseen.

10 minutes clearing a dungeon? How does that work? In my experience the searching for traps or secret doors, social encounters (prisoner / interrogate enemy), utility spells (speak with dead, detect magic), rituals, searching for clues (read: looting the corpses), searching for treasure. And yeah, in some dungeons time is a factor, but that the only alternative is "you can long rest freely" is not my experience. Plenty of dungeons where you have corridors between rooms (so that fight does not put the entire dungeon on alert) but with regular patrols, denizens moving about to do stuff (living environment and all that) which makes short resting an option (if smartly done and if your lucky) but long resting out of the question.

[Psyren]

Clerics have 4 first level, 3 second level, and 3 third level.

Thing is that spirit guardians lasts 10 minutes, so you can clear most of a dungeon in 10 minutes (and you shouldn't be moving slower as otherwise you're giving the locals a chance to react). If time matters, then spirit guardians lasts long enough. If it doesn't, then you can long rest freely.

This means you can do that combo for 6 encounter at level 6 with a second level slot and 1-2 third level slots free for utility.

Or, if you want real cheese, a human cleric can subtle cast spirit guardians and then get invisibility and pass without trace cast on them. At level 6 this gives a result of a +20 with advantage to sneak around and murder everyone unseen.

Your games don't appear to bear any resemblance to the ones I've seen. These are some odd assumptions:

"I have more than 10 minutes, therefore I have 8 hours"
"I can murder everyone using 1 hour invisibility + 10 minute spirit guardians."
"Turning me invisible means all the spell effects emanating from me are also invisible."
"Subtle spell hides ongoing spell effects as well as their components."

If your DM is behind all of those that's fine, but I don't think most peoples' would be.

[Amechra]

Cleric has a long-standing tradition of "always prepare Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians," because their spell list can be described as "very-important-but-also-quite-boring-and-for-whatever-reason-the-devs-absolutely-refuse-to-flesh-out-domain/deity-specific-spell-support-outside-of-a-small-handful-of-"on-theme"-spells-which-leaves-all-Clerics-feelings-like-copies-of-one-another-despite-having-wildly-different-faiths."

I mean, the reason is that that would take up a bunch of page count for minimal gain. Like, we currently have a situation where Clerics getting 10 distinct spells per Domain feels like a "small handful".

That said, I'd be down for the return of stuff like 3.5's Faith Healing (a version of Cure Light Wounds that always heals the maximum... but can only target people who follow the same deity as you) or Imbued Healing (a feat that adds extra effects to your healing spells based off of your domains). I know that 5e's built off of the mechanics being a flavorless pap that is as diagesis-agnostic as possible, but come one.

[Blatant Beast]

In my opinion, you're putting too much weight on the validity of feedback that is driven by actual playtests (which we have no way of corroborating anyway) as opposed to feedback that is driven by reading and discussion.

Fair enough. My concern, is that the power in the cleric class, is a bit subtle to grok. A Paladin, plays like it reads, for the most part. The 5e Cleric class does not read as well as the Paladin class, but when you see a cleric played well, the lightbulb goes on.

In my opinion the popularity of clerics has never had anything to do with their mechanics. It's always been the headache with dealing with a moral centric class attached to a naturalistic Pantheon.

While I do not disagree with this, being able to provide both offense and utility/buffing in the same turn is a nice quality of life adjustment for the class. The 5e cleric class is fun to play, and the fact the class can be devoted to a philosophy instead of a deity does help a bit with the Role Play concerns.

Awkward mechanics, will certainly not help the class get over the hurdle of having a theme that inherently turns off many players.

[Psyren]

Fair enough. My concern, is that the power in the cleric class, is a bit subtle to grok. A Paladin, plays like it reads, for the most part. The 5e Cleric class does not read as well as the Paladin class, but when you see a cleric played well, the lightbulb goes on.

That's valid; if they simply slap concentration onto Spiritual Weapon without buffing it to compensate I'll be pretty disappointed myself. If they think it's overpowered or overused as currently printed it would be nice to hear from them as to why.

While I do not disagree with this, being able to provide both offense and utility/buffing in the same turn is a nice quality of life adjustment for the class. The 5e cleric class is fun to play, and the fact the class can be devoted to a philosophy instead of a deity does help a bit with the Role Play concerns.

Awkward mechanics, will certainly not help the class get over the hurdle of having a theme that inherently turns off many players.

Is that really a hurdle though? Their class popularity stats show Clerics dead center, with only Wizards and Warlocks ahead of them as full casters, i.e. ahead of Sorcerers, Bards and Druids. They seem to be doing fine imo.

[ZRN]

We absolutely know that more than the Spiritual Weapon spell is being altered by One D&D.

The 5e Cleric’s power rests upon careful selection of spells to fill one’s limited spell preparation slots. Clerics have no spells, (or almost none), that have a Reaction cast trigger. Clerics, do have a number of spells that require Concentration, and a smaller number of spells that can be cast as a Bonus Action.

Spiritual Weapon, fills a critical niche for a cleric. Spiritual Weapon, does not require Concentration, can be cast or used as a Bonus Action, has a decent enough rate of Upcast scaling power, and allows a cleric character to apply damage pressure during an Encounter while still being able to cast other spells or use Channel Divinity powers.

5e, in the system’s wisdom, correctly divined that a cleric only being able to heal, or buff during their turn was not particularly satisfying….hence options like Spirtual Weapon.

While Spiritual Weapon, as a spell, is not as central to the cleric class’ identity as Eldritch Blast is to a Warlock, Spiritual Weapon is definitely a Cleric Touchstone spell.

If Spiritual Weapon is being changed, then we need to know what other Bonus Action, that applies damage pressure to the enemy, and does not require Concentration is going to take Spiritual Weapon’s place, because the need still exists……at this point we don’t know.

Until we have the full cleric spell list, we will not know if, or how Spiritual Weapon’s niche was filled for One D&D.

Seems like something, WotC would want to have tested?
If you take your car to a mechanic, and the mechanic swaps out a major component of your car’s engine, typically the mechanic is going to test drive the car, before returning it to you.

I think that you're making the wrong assumptions about the point of the playtest.

They're not expected the community to tell them whether the classes overall are balanced (except to the degree that imbalance makes them unfun to play, like the first-draft rogue and monk). They're either confident they can do that work themselves or (justifiably) dubious that they'd get useful information from a public playtest. The point of the playtest is an overall vibe-check and feedback on specific abilities.

[Blatant Beast]

T
Is that really a hurdle though?

Bad Mechanics are certainly a hurdle...just see the 2e AD&D Psionicist and 3e's Truenamer. Both are cool concepts, that do not work. Clearly, the 5e or One D&D cleric does not rise to the level of either of the previously mentioned classes.

The point of the playtest is an overall vibe-check and feedback on specific abilities.

That is actually the source of my trepidation. The playtest has several times now, presented in one fell swoop a bunch of spells, with changes compared to the 5e version.

As I stated previously, the cleric class is a bit subtle to gauge, because so much depends upon a red wheel barrow, siting in the rain.....err...correction...so much depends upon Action Economy/Concentration requirements of the cleric spell list.

Vibe Checking is also restrained by the constraints of 5e. A Barbarian's Rage, is a horrible vibe. Spellcasters can nurse their spellslots, but Barbarians are designed to Rage, and if a Barbarian is out of Rages, the system just sort of tells them to suck it up and carry on.

As a vibe that sucks, and most people acknowledge that bit of suckitude...but everyone knows the Barbarian class is only going to receive band aids, because WotC is not going to completely redesign the class for 2024.

[Inquisitor]

I can't believe the amount of hubub over a spell (Spiritual Weapon) that's pretty poor in most circumstances. Certainly it didn't need a nerf, but maybe that's a good thing since it will save a lot of people who fall into the trap of wasting their limited spell slots trying to cast it all the time.

(There are plenty of comprehensive analyses on the net about how poor this spell is outside of a few niche cases like Death Cleric, so I'm not going to bother repeating all of that here.)

[Psyren]

Bad Mechanics are certainly a hurdle...just see the 2e AD&D Psionicist and 3e's Truenamer. Both are cool concepts, that do not work. Clearly, the 5e or One D&D cleric does not rise to the level of either of the previously mentioned classes.

I agree Cleric is nowhere near those two but then... why mention them at all? The only 5e classes that would have fallen into this bucket imo were the 2014 Ranger and Monk, both of which have since been fixed. Cleric remains fine, including in terms of usage statistics.

That is actually the source of my trepidation. The playtest has several times now, presented in one fell swoop a bunch of spells, with changes compared to the 5e version.

As I stated previously, the cleric class is a bit subtle to gauge, because so much depends upon a red wheel barrow, siting in the rain.....err...correction...so much depends upon Action Economy/Concentration requirements of the cleric spell list.

Vibe Checking is also restrained by the constraints of 5e. A Barbarian's Rage, is a horrible vibe. Spellcasters can nurse their spellslots, but Barbarians are designed to Rage, and if a Barbarian is out of Rages, the system just sort of tells them to suck it up and carry on.

As a vibe that sucks, and most people acknowledge that bit of suckitude...but everyone knows the Barbarian class is only going to receive band aids, because WotC is not going to completely redesign the class for 2024.

I would call the Barbarian changes sweeping enough to be a redesign. Recovering rage on a short rest, having it last 10x as long, and making it much easier to maintain, imo all lead to a Barbarian actually running out of rages becoming much rarer.

[stoutstien]

I agree Cleric is nowhere near those two but then... why mention them at all? The only 5e classes that would have fallen into this bucket imo were the 2014 Ranger and Monk, both of which have since been fixed. Cleric remains fine, including in terms of usage statistics.

I think it's important because (hopefully) the vast majority of players aren't ranking classes that want to play based on a pile of mechanics, such as ranking full casters solely based on that similarly. That's why ranking all the classes in popularity across the board is mostly a pointless metric. It doesn't matter if only 5% want to ever play a bard like PC as long as that same 5% feels like there are enough options to do just that.

Players who want to play clerics are probably looking at having specific hooks and RP opportunities as much as having the crunch to fulfill those troupes and traits. If the only thing a class that as ingrained into the very driving forces that are the big makers and shakers of a setting is
"well it's strong"
I would chalk that as a huge failure even if it was the most popular class by leaps and bounds. Clerics feel extremely mushy in 5e because the lore in DND has always been that way but it's been cracked up to 100 this time around.

[Psyren]

I think it's important because (hopefully) the vast majority of players aren't ranking classes that want to play based on a pile of mechanics, such as ranking full casters solely based on that similarly. That's why ranking all the classes in popularity across the board is mostly a pointless metric. It doesn't matter if only 5% want to ever play a bard like PC as long as that same 5% feels like there are enough options to do just that.

I cited the popularity metrics because the assertion being made was that a significant number of players are being "turned off" from playing Cleric due to their design. That doesn't appear to be the case from the numbers. This isn't to say that clerics are in any way perfect, but I would expect mechanical barriers to their adoption to be reflected in usage, much as they were with Crawford's comments on the Druid and its complexity.

[stoutstien]

I cited the popularity metrics because the assertion being made was that a significant number of players are being "turned off" from playing Cleric due to their design. That doesn't appear to be the case from the numbers. This isn't to say that clerics are in any way perfect, but I would expect mechanical barriers to their adoption to be reflected in usage, much as they were with Crawford's comments on the Druid and its complexity.

Now that would be an interesting metric to see now that you mention it. I know I would play a cleric in a game where the the GM has taken the time to clean up the back end of it but shy away from them otherwise. Same reason I wouldn't play a 5e wizard.

[KorvinStarmast]

Fair enough. My concern, is that the power in the cleric class, is a bit subtle to grok. A Paladin, plays like it reads, for the most part. The 5e Cleric class does not read as well as the Paladin class, but when you see a cleric played well, the lightbulb goes on.

Yes, that's well said.

I can't believe the amount of hubub over a spell (Spiritual Weapon) that's pretty poor in most circumstances. Certainly it didn't need a nerf, but maybe that's a good thing since it will save a lot of people who fall into the trap of wasting their limited spell slots trying to cast it all the time.

It has its moments, but it's not an Easy Button.