OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread

[Rilem]

Polar Ray only gets one attack; it’s not like Scorching Ray. Does Calder have Split Ray? (That’d make it a 10th level spell, I think). (Ocular Spell was noted earlier, and that could also work, storing one in each eye.)

[Errorname]

I would assume because he went out on a "crusade", combined with things like Start of Darkness and How the Paladin Got His Scar portraying the Guard as exactly that. Of course, it's entirely reasonable to believe they didn't start being that until after Soon's death as well, so who knows.

It seems very likely to me that this is what happened. Soon seems like a Paladin's Paladin, for everything bad you could say about him the dude does seem to have had an iron will and took his vows very seriously.

[Peelee]

I would assume because he went out on a "crusade", combined with things like Start of Darkness and How the Paladin Got His Scar portraying the Guard as exactly that. Of course, it's entirely reasonable to believe they didn't start being that until after Soon's death as well, so who knows.

Did he go on a crusade, though? Shojo says he told others to go on a crusade and eradicate the information, and we don't see Soon taking part in the next panel. Also, we directly saw Shojo order a paladin have the Order of the Stick arrested for trial and the paladin interpret that as "kill them all if they put up even token resistance", so it's not out of hand to imagine Soon envisioned one thing with his commands and his Sapphire Guard envisioned something very different.

[Tubercular Ox]

If the IFCC thinks V is going to die (big if!) and it's in their power to save V, then their choices are to let the party continue without an arcane caster, and with no ability to influence future events, or to let the party continue with an arcane caster, over which they still have one measure of control.

I think the IFCC is trying to herd the party towards a destination, and V is helping them by being the party's arcane caster. The pulls should be considered as continuing a plan of regulating the party rather than just trying to find the most opportune time to toss a grenade.

Also, didja notice that they blew a 20 minute pull to stop V from telling Roy not to blow up the gate? You'd think the 6 minute one would've done.

What else would he do while conscious and imprisoned? Now he has a single action to fire off two spells at once (assuming I read the feat correctly) that most would not expect from a red dragon and therefore be unprepared. Seems a good use of resources to me.

The spells have V, S, F components. If he's body frozen he can't do that.

Suggestion is an SLA Red Dragons get, hence no components, and a level in Mindbender lets him talk to Sunny without moving his lips.

[Debatra]

It seems very likely to me that this is what happened. Soon seems like a Paladin's Paladin, for everything bad you could say about him the dude does seem to have had an iron will and took his vows very seriously.

To be fair, everything we "know" about him comes from either A: Other people talking about him (and we all know how much this story likes unreliable narrators), or B: That one scene with him in the throne room.

Did he go on a crusade, though? Shojo says he told others to go on a crusade and eradicate the information, and we don't see Soon taking part in the next panel. Also, we directly saw Shojo order a paladin have the Order of the Stick arrested for trial and the paladin interpret that as "kill them all if they put up even token resistance", so it's not out of hand to imagine Soon envisioned one thing with his commands and his Sapphire Guard envisioned something very different.

To be clear, I'm not arguing that those things make that perception correct. Only that this is likely why the perception exists.

[Thecommander236]

As funny as leaving your Paladins behind is, they were unlikely to make the same mistake as Soon given that the Dragon is unlikely to surrender a second time given he wouldn't want to be stuck in a waking nightmare again. Leaving behind some of your fighters for this is not a great choice especially since they are extra healers and tanks. Especially in the case of leaving behind O'Chul which can tank almost anything. That frost beam damned near killed V outright. O'Chul is made for attacks like that.

On top of that, where is Sunny? I'm not comfortable that the Dragon has a brand new Beholder cult member. This is not going to be a pretty fight. If Team Evil wanders in on this, that very well could be game over. As again, for the fear of the dragon surrending, they can't accept that because they have no way to trap him this time around. Finally, it's clear the dragon can't be reasoned with. He wants Serini to submit, but then claims in the next breath that he will reduce her bones to charcoal. He is clearly indecisive with what he wants, so the situation has gone full Fubar rather quickly.

[Mordar]

The undercurrent of paladin-hate is either a 3.x thing, or it's a GitP thing. It has always mystified me.

I am not sure where it originates.

It's been radiating off of these web pages to me since my first arrival at GitP to read a 5e paladin guide in 2014. But let's not derail this thread.
The 5e paladin in the PHB was a very well designed class.

I gotta tell ya, I remember this from my first Gen Con way back in 1980-something. It then percolated through my game group too, though never as badly as what I saw in broader settings like conventions or once I got to University. Always liked paladins. Played a few. Never had the anticipated troubles, probably because we were willing to give other characters space.

No Save for Polar Ray. Which is going to sting. It should take the all mighty Wizard out of the fight, which was the point.

Seems like that's the spell to use on someone likely having Evasion...

Ranged touch. Pretty much 95% successful, right?

- M

[MReav]

It's ironic that Soon came the closest to ending Team Evil permanently.

Nah. Lirian had defeated Xykon and Redcloak. They were in her prison. She flubbed things by leaving enough reagents that they could improvise the 120000 GP it takes to make a phylactery, while leaving no guards or supervision of any sort on them.

[yes]

Alright, so it wasn't Seirini's idea. She had no choice but to keep the dragon prisoner in there. Still, just how many poor decisions did Soon Kim make in his life? The guy was practically the living embodiment of honor before reason

Soon didn't take part in building the dungeon, so could be that whatever they did with Calder beforehand was a much more reasonable solution.

[Provengreil]

And THAT'S why I didn't jump into earlier discussions on Serini's morality and the morality of Calder's being left conscious: I knew there was information not on the table yet. Also this relaxes me on the state of the rest of the dungeon, at least most of it.

I wonder if Caulder recognized the significance of the Paladin at the time he was captured and Surrendered because he knew Soon would halt the fight?

[Psyren]

That's not part of the point. The point is that V's absence is what matters. If V is not there to prevent something from happening (such as by being dead), then the IFCC's objectives are more likely to be fulfilled.

They can't interfere directly to kill V so this seems like pretty banal point. Pulling their soul was thus meaningful.

Nah. Lirian had defeated Xykon and Redcloak. They were in her prison. She flubbed things by leaving enough reagents that they could improvise the 120000 GP it takes to make a phylactery, while leaving no guards or supervision of any sort on them.

Nah, he still came closer than she did. It took outside interference for Soon to lose, rather than Team Evil's own ingenuity. Moreover, they were far more powerful in the Soon fight than they were vs Lirian, Redcloak especially.

[Barstro]

The spells have V, S, F components. If he's body frozen he can't do that.

Suggestion is an SLA Red Dragons get, hence no components, and a level in Mindbender lets him talk to Sunny without moving his lips.

Could have prepared them the instant Sunny broke the spell.

[The MunchKING]

OMG what if the IFCC pulls V to save V from the double Polar Ray? I mean, yes, we see the spells hitting and V does not look happy, but it's a story, not a D&D log. They could pull V out at the very last moment.

This is not a prediction.

Nice to know the trend of someone saying that LITERALLY EVERYTIME V is in danger since the IFCC said they could do that continues unabated.

He would've had to cast the Ocular spell in preparation beforehand, and I don't think he had the time.

He's had X years assuming preparing spells is a strictly mental feat.

The undercurrent of paladin-hate is either a 3.x thing, or it's a GitP thing. It has always mystified me.

I am not sure where it originates.

From what I understand, in earlier editions the Paladins were assumed to be working with a Good Church, and a lot of DMS took as similar to (a real world religion) and then dialed it up to 11. Combining that with DMs that think Paladins are only interesting if they fall, or ones that just hate Paladins and want them to fall anyway, and you have players that have to be EXTREMELY uptight about being Lawful Good lest the Vengeful DMs come and take all their powers away. Which then leads to conflict with everyone who is allowed to have a looser interpretation of morals. Which leads to THEM hating the Paladin because he's the "no Fun" guy. And that became widespread enough it became a stereotype in its own right.

[Blue Dragon]

Amazing comic, but I have one simple question: How Belkar recovered his dagger at panel #6?

Willingly suspension of disbelief.

[elecampane]

No Save for Polar Ray. Which is going to sting. It should take the all mighty Wizard out of the fight, which was the point.

Seems like that's the spell to use on someone likely having Evasion...

I mean, no saving throw, but you have to hit with a ranged touch attack still (because it is a ray). Sure, their huge Base attack bonus still applies, but it also uses dex modifier, which is +0 for dragons.

What else would he do while conscious and imprisoned? Now he has a single action to fire off two spells at once (assuming I read the feat correctly) that most would not expect from a red dragon and therefore be unprepared. Seems a good use of resources to me.

For this specific feat to work you have to actually cast it beforehand. Casting the spell requires verbal and somatic components, which you can't do while paralyzed. He could have Still spell and Silent spell metamagic feats, but he would have to apply both of them at the same time, which would put spell's level above 9th.

[TuringTest]

Well, that answers several of the questions I had about the exact nature of this imprisonment. Being conscious the whole time was specifically NOT intended, but IS what Calder endured. Ouch.

Yeah, there's pretty strong nightmare fuel in this Fate Worse than Death, a break of tone for this ultimately light-hearted comic. Had it been intentional, it would have cast Serini deep into Chaotic Evil territory.

[Zancloufer]

So looking at we know about Cador his current level has to be at least 35. He's an Old+ Red Dragon with level(s) in Mindbender and access to at least 8th level spells. An old Dragon makes him at least 28 HD, to get level 8 spells he needs another +1-2 age categories OR 6 levels in spell-casting class, so probably very old or ancient, though I suppose he could've taken the 5 spellcaster levels and at least 1 level in Mindbender.

So he is either a Old Red Dragon [28 HD] with 10 levels in Mind-bender and [at least] +1 more caster class level, an Anicent Red Dragon with 1+ levels in Mindbender, or some mix in-between.

Still puts his level around 35-39. BAB of 33+, Breath weapon of 16-20d10. HP is probably between 470~690 depending on rolls/classes and ofc a CL of 15+

[Tubercular Ox]

Nice to know the trend of someone saying that LITERALLY EVERYTIME V is in danger since the IFCC said they could do that continues unabated.

That's what I was thinking when four or five comics in a row people were asking if we were about to see the Monster in the Dark's species. But if it doesn't mean what we think it means, then what does it mean and why didn't we think that?

It's a shame I didn't have the idea last thread, when we were talking about what V's "other" time out would be used for. Could've prevented this entire situation.

How much damage do you think that is anyhoo? I figure anywhere from 15d6 (min level polar ray) to 50d6 (max level polar ray, somehow x2 because of the two eyes).

[Peelee]

What's all this discussion about a dragon preparing spells? Are we assuming Calder took some levels in Wizard or Cleric or something?

[Tubercular Ox]

What's all this discussion about a dragon preparing spells? Are we assuming Calder took some levels in Wizard or Cleric or something?

I was referring to Calder having to cast Ocular Polar Ray twice before releasing them with a full round action, which is a burden to believing he actually did it.

[Rilem]

If he’s got enough hit dice, Sudden quicken would be an option though it’s a big feat investment.

[bunsen_h]

What's all this discussion about a dragon preparing spells? Are we assuming Calder took some levels in Wizard or Cleric or something?

I think it basically comes down to an open question: did the Polar Ray come from Calder's eyes via the Ocular Spell feat, or was it merely an artistic detail?

I don't think we know yet if Calder was time-stopped in body but not in mind, or if the time stop failed completely (but Calder somehow survived the imprisonment, with nothing in the room showing the expected detritus). I lean towards the former, but am uncertain.

[Kish]

And yet again, paladins prove to be a detriment.

What a bizarre reading.

Paladins kill? They're bad. Paladins insist on not killing someone who surrenders? They're bad.

Actually maybe it's a very straightforward reading: is "detriment" part of the definition of "paladin," perchance?

[Mic_128]

Think of it this way.

If V was dead at that particular moment, what would have changed in the situation? Roy destroyed the Gate because V wasn't there to stop him. If V was dead, would Roy have not destroyed the Gate?

No, but then the Order with the exception of Elan (and 50/50 on Haley) would have been killed by Tarquin, letting Xykon get Kraagor's gate unopposed.

The possibility of the IFCC pulling V out; instead of their soul just being yoinked like last time, one of the directors cedes their time to Tiamat who gives the soul to Calder. Three minutes is a long time in combat when your wizards suddenly being dominated.

Vaarsuvius: I see your game now. You shall possess my empty body, and with it seize the Gates for yourselves!
Lee: What? No, that's ridiculous. That vessel is your rightful property. Putting another soul into it would be a gross violation of our contract.

They cannot puppet V's body, and letting someone else would be the same basic thing.

[Kish]

Yeah, no fiend would lie.

[Peelee]

Yeah, no fiend would lie.

I mean, at some point, the author has to have some way to give information to the reader. The only purpose for that line, so far as I can see, is to rule out the possibility that they will control V's body. Sure, it could be a lie, but then why have them say it at all?

[Ghosty]

...So he is either a Old Red Dragon [28 HD] with 10 levels in Mind-bender and [at least] +1 more caster class level, an Anicent Red Dragon with 1+ levels in Mindbender, or some mix in-between.

Still puts his level around 35-39. BAB of 33+, Breath weapon of 16-20d10. HP is probably between 470~690 depending on rolls/classes and ofc a CL of 15+

And yet incapable of one-shotting anyone with it. Or the Polar Ray that absent some off-screen buff I'm sure I missed, should've Elf-sicled our plucky mage.

Shrug, I'm more than entertained. And GITP is back on the favorites of my phone browser...

[Mic_128]

Yeah, no fiend would lie.

At that point why not just keep Vs soul and puppet it immediately?

They're sneaky and devious, sure, but outright lying about the agreement would break the contract.

[Ghosty]

What's all this discussion about a dragon preparing spells? Are we assuming Calder took some levels in Wizard or Cleric or something?

I've nowhere near the Forum's or your knowledge of 3.5 onward, but if Calder doesn't have those levels, how did he (He?) cast an 8th level spell outside the domains he's allowed to?

I think the dual eye beams was just a bad-ass art choice, and I whole-heartedly approve.

[Peelee]

I've nowhere near the Forum's or your knowledge of 3.5 onward, but if Calder doesn't have those levels, how did he (He?) cast an 8th level spell outside the domains he's allowed to?

Levels of Sorcerer., which is much more thematic.

I think the dual eye beams was just a bad-ass art choice, and I whole-heartedly approve.

Seconded on both counts.