OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread

[Mordar]

I've nowhere near the Forum's or your knowledge of 3.5 onward, but if Calder doesn't have those levels, how did he (He?) cast an 8th level spell outside the domains he's allowed to?

I think the dual eye beams was just a bad-ass art choice, and I whole-heartedly approve.

Sorcerer spell, 8th level so available to any Ancient Red Dragon or lesser age with spellcaster levels...right? Plus could also choose/learn Cleric spells from Chaos, Evil and Fire domains?

- M

[Resileaf]

No, but then the Order with the exception of Elan (and 50/50 on Haley) would have been killed by Tarquin, letting Xykon get Kraagor's gate unopposed.

Unrelated. I'm talking specifically about Roy's decision to destroy the Gate. Would he have made a different decision if V had been dead instead of just having vacated their body for twenty minutes?

[Unoriginal]

Yeah, there's pretty strong nightmare fuel in this Fate Worse than Death, a break of tone for this ultimately light-hearted comic. Had it been intentional, it would have cast Serini deep into Chaotic Evil territory.

Evil sure, but imprisoning people in torturous conditions isn't particularly Chaotic.

Unrelated. I'm talking specifically about Roy's decision to destroy the Gate. Would he have made a different decision if V had been dead instead of just having vacated their body for twenty minutes?

His decision was made with Varsuuvius being solidly MIA since the Order found the Draketooth's genealogy.

If he had known Varsuuvius was dead, he may have refrained from destroying the Gate before the elf's body was recovered, because the Order would try to resurrect them and an explosion would have made that much harder. But that wouldn't have stopped the Gate being destroyed, only delayed it.

[Kish]

I mean, at some point, the author has to have some way to give information to the reader. The only purpose for that line, so far as I can see, is to rule out the possibility that they will control V's body. Sure, it could be a lie, but then why have them say it at all?

At that point why not just keep Vs soul and puppet it immediately?

Because if Vaarsuvius knew that they could puppeteer their body, they would avoid being anywhere critical to the Order's plans.

I do not actually expect this to happen. I am rather fearing that the revelation of their actual plans for Vaarsuvius are going to leave me going, "so they don't actually benefit from Vaarsuvius being with the Order; the one thing they get from the Splice time is Vaarsuvius' absence and it would be at least as good for them if Vaarsuvius had been killed by Xykon, directly to the contrary of what they said." But I would think it both hilarious and brilliant if, probably the third time Vaarsuvius got yanked down to the Lower Planes, the following exchange took place.

CEDRIC: And now Director Nero will possess your body...
VAARSUVIUS: What! But you said--
LEE: We implied and you believed us, we said and you believed us, and you never figured out that you should demand to read the contract yourself instead of believing absolutely in the truth of archfiends' words!
CEDRIC: Well, such are mortal minds. So many of you treat a statement, even one you know is from an untrustworthy source, as an established fact.

[Peelee]

Because if Vaarsuvius knew that they could puppeteer their body, they would avoid being anywhere critical to the Order's plans.

I do not actually expect this to happen. I am rather fearing that the revelation of their actual plans for Vaarsuvius are going to leave me going, "so they don't actually benefit from Vaarsuvius being with the Order; the one thing they get from the Splice time is Vaarsuvius' absence and it would be at least as good for them if Vaarsuvius had been killed by Xykon, directly to the contrary of what they said." But I would think it both hilarious and brilliant if, probably the third time Vaarsuvius got yanked down to the Lower Planes, the following exchange took place.

CEDRIC: And now Director Nero will possess your body...
VAARSUVIUS: What! But you said--
LEE: We implied and you believed us, we said and you believed us, and you never figured out that you should demand to read the contract yourself instead of believing absolutely in the truth of archfiends' words!
CEDRIC: Well, such are mortal minds. So many of you treat a statement, even one you know is from an untrustworthy source, as an established fact.

If V thought they could puppeteer V's body then the only way to be non-critical to the Order's plans would be to not be with the Order anymore. Because as non-critical as V might be to the plan, having an additional enemy high-level wizard while also losing your own high-level wizard is almost certain to be critical regardless.

[KorvinStarmast]

He is clearly indecisive with what he wants, so the situation has gone full Fubar rather quickly.

That's a nice summary.

Nah. Lirian had defeated Xykon and Redcloak. They were in her prison. She flubbed things by leaving enough reagents that they could improvise the 120000 GP it takes to make a phylactery, while leaving no guards or supervision of any sort on them.

Yes, Lirian was showing a far lower wisdom than a high level druid usually has.

From what I understand

Thanks for the insights. Our tables never had that problem.

I've nowhere near the Forum's or your knowledge of 3.5 onward, but if Calder doesn't have those levels, how did he (He?) cast an 8th level spell outside the domains he's allowed to?

1. The Ancient Black Dragon has some pretty powerful spells (Anti magic field? Greater Teleport?) available. Calder is in roughly the same league as ABD. Rich doesn't hold to strict RAW.

I see no problem.

EDIT: I took another look at how much I enjoyed this strip.
1. Calder is well written, as a dragon
2. In Panel 7, there's Roy behind the dragon's breath, just caught his sword again, and his eyes are green.
3. Mimi morphing a bit into less defined shape as the dragon breath hits.

Big props to the Giant. The art just rocks.

[gatemansgc]

Amazing comic, but I have one simple question: How Belkar recovered his dagger at panel #6?


p.s. Poor paladins, but then... they are protecting again the free access to one of the gates...

could just have more

[Kish]

If V thought they could puppeteer V's body then the only way to be non-critical to the Order's plans would be to not be with the Order anymore. Because as non-critical as V might be to the plan, having an additional enemy high-level wizard while also losing your own high-level wizard is almost certain to be critical regardless.

Yes, exactly. They would go away. Instead of staying with the Order. But because they don't know that, they stay with the Order. And the IFCC's line about how, if Xykon kills them, the IFCC's plans have been wasted, would make sense. If all the IFCC wants or needs is Vaarsuvius' absence, well, Xykon almost made Vaarsuvius permanently absent and the IFCC was unhappy about it.

[Peelee]

Yes, exactly. They would go away. Instead of staying with the Order. But because they don't know that, they stay with the Order. And the IFCC's line about how, if Xykon kills them, the IFCC's plans have been wasted, would make sense. If all the IFCC wants or needs is Vaarsuvius' absence, well, Xykon almost made Vaarsuvius permanently absent and the IFCC was unhappy about it.

Sure, for Watsonian reasoning. But my initial issue was Doylistic and I let myself get lost in the weeds. The author conveyed to us that this wouldn't happen.

[Kish]

I very rarely agree with "this character said it and I think they were speaking for the author" when the character in question is not an archfiend speaking to their primary dupe in the story. If they'd said it to Qarr, I'd agree.

(And my reason is also Doylist: Rich will hopefully justify the IFCC actively wanting Vaarsuvius alive at some point before the end of the story, which the first time invocation sure didn't do.)

[Peelee]

I very rarely agree with "this character said it and I think they were speaking for the author" when the character in question is not an archfiend speaking to their primary dupe in the story. If they'd said it to Qarr, I'd agree.

(And my reason is also Doylist: Rich will hopefully justify the IFCC actively wanting Vaarsuvius alive at some point before the end of the story, which the first time invocation sure didn't do.)

Imean, contextually, there's no reason for V to voice their issue and the fiends to negate it except to convey information to the audience. It serves no other narrative purpose. And further, they were quite precise that V assumed something was the case and they didn't say it, whereas they directly said they could nor possess V's body.

If there's a faustian bargain and we see the twist (or part of the twist, if there's more) but we are directly told one of rhe specific things they will not do, at some point you have to believe that because if not, then what's even the point of laying out rhe details to start with? Might as well be "well we said we'd only take your soul for however much time, but turns out we will do it as often as we want for as long as we want for all eternity".

[Resileaf]

His decision was made with Varsuuvius being solidly MIA since the Order found the Draketooth's genealogy.

If he had known Varsuuvius was dead, he may have refrained from destroying the Gate before the elf's body was recovered, because the Order would try to resurrect them and an explosion would have made that much harder. But that wouldn't have stopped the Gate being destroyed, only delayed it.

This is exactly my point. He had no idea where Varsuuvius was, if they were alive or dead, in the pyramid, whatever else. He very clearly, not knowing whether they were alive or dead, made the decision to destroy the Gate. If V had been dead at that moment with no one being aware of it, he would have made the same decision.

[brian 333]

I mean, at some point, the author has to have some way to give information to the reader. The only purpose for that line, so far as I can see, is to rule out the possibility that they will control V's body. Sure, it could be a lie, but then why have them say it at all?

Also, it was said by Lee. Had Cedrik delivered the same line I would be much more suspicious.

[Ghosty]

That's a nice summary.
Yes, Lirian was showing a far lower wisdom than a high level druid usually has.

Thanks for the insights. Our tables never had that problem.
1. The Ancient Black Dragon has some pretty powerful spells (Anti magic field? Greater Teleport?) available. Calder is in roughly the same league as ABD. Rich doesn't hold to strict RAW.

I see no problem.

EDIT: I took another look at how much I enjoyed this strip.
1. Calder is well written, as a dragon
2. In Panel 7, there's Roy behind the dragon's breath, just caught his sword again, and his eyes are green.
3. Mimi morphing a bit into less defined shape as the dragon breath hits.

Big props to the Giant. The art just rocks.

Oh absolutely. I really like the subtlety of the hit displays. Roy's sword sort of slices along Calder, the dagger sinks in, Haley's arrows are mixed. Just top-notch. Very curious to see what Durkon has planned.

(But still, Haley Sneak Attacking Sunny's central eye, probably ends this on Round 1. Then again, the Elf commando Commander was one of my favorite characters in this strip, so....yeah. Again, not that kind of story.)

Fantastic. I can't overstate how delighted I've been by the last 50-60 strips or so.

[Doug Lampert]

And yet incapable of one-shotting anyone with it. Or the Polar Ray that absent some off-screen buff I'm sure I missed, should've Elf-sicled our plucky mage.

Shrug, I'm more than entertained. And GITP is back on the favorites of my phone browser...

Eh? Polar Ray from a sorcerer with caster level 16 damage averages 56 damage.

A level 16 wizard with 12 con and no con boost gets an average of 57.5 HP, and on average remains functional after that spell.

Add an amulet of constitution or a Bear's Endurance and it's even less, and you should IMAO pretty well always assume that something is boosting con by level 16. The order is unoptimized, but this is a level 2 slot, it doesn't deserve to be shown on screen.

[Velaryon]

Nice to know the trend of someone saying that LITERALLY EVERYTIME V is in danger since the IFCC said they could do that continues unabated.

Eh, it's not really much different than the trend of "is this when Belkar permanently dies?" every single time he's in combat for the last what... 900 strips or so?

[Ghosty]

Eh? Polar Ray from a sorcerer with caster level 16 damage averages 56 damage.

A level 16 wizard with 12 con and no con boost gets an average of 57.5 HP, and on average remains functional after that spell.

Add an amulet of constitution or a Bear's Endurance and it's even less, and you should IMAO pretty well always assume that something is boosting con by level 16. The order is unoptimized, but this is a level 2 slot, it doesn't deserve to be shown on screen.

They did cast Bear's Endurance earlier. Not sure if it was Mass, but I remember it going off. Silly me thought Calder had a lot more levels than late teens driving the d6. 15-18 d6, sure. Painful. Not lethal. Assuming sufficient buffs. Definitely going to sting though, and a great excuse to ensure our Mage doesn't dominate this battle too.

Aside, given the short range of Polar Ray, and the much longer range of Disintegrate, what would you all---were this a tabletop, and I know it's not---have had V do instead?

[LuckyTheOrc]

Imean, contextually, there's no reason for V to voice their issue and the fiends to negate it except to convey information to the audience. It serves no other narrative purpose. And further, they were quite precise that V assumed something was the case and they didn't say it, whereas they directly said they could nor possess V's body.

If there's a faustian bargain and we see the twist (or part of the twist, if there's more) but we are directly told one of rhe specific things they will not do, at some point you have to believe that because if not, then what's even the point of laying out rhe details to start with? Might as well be "well we said we'd only take your soul for however much time, but turns out we will do it as often as we want for as long as we want for all eternity".

I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with Kish or if one of us isn't getting his argument.

If the fiends want V to stay with the party, they need to convince him that they can't make him turn on the party; that his biggest risk is absence, not betrayal. So they tell him they won't/can't possess him during when they gank his soul. That's the narrative purpose; set up the reason why V thinks it's reasonable to stay with the party while setting up the twist for him to be wrong.

[brian 333]

(But still, Haley Sneak Attacking Sunny's central eye, probably ends this on Round 1. Then again, the Elf commando Commander was one of my favorite characters in this strip, so....yeah. Again, not that kind of story.)

I'll bet against Haley blinding Sunny, and instead propose Elan will talk her out of her Domination. All it would take is Calder, (who probably has no concept of friendship because he ate all the little ponies,) to order Sunny to kill Elan.

[Liquor Box]

And THAT'S why I didn't jump into earlier discussions on Serini's morality and the morality of Calder's being left conscious: I knew there was information not on the table yet. Also this relaxes me on the state of the rest of the dungeon, at least most of it.

I wonder if Caulder recognized the significance of the Paladin at the time he was captured and Surrendered because he knew Soon would halt the fight?

I think very little of the earlier discussions on Serini's alignment turned on whether Calder was conscious. But I agree, much worse if he had been deliberately conscious the whole time.

So looking at we know about Cador his current level has to be at least 35. He's an Old+ Red Dragon with level(s) in Mindbender and access to at least 8th level spells. An old Dragon makes him at least 28 HD, to get level 8 spells he needs another +1-2 age categories OR 6 levels in spell-casting class, so probably very old or ancient, though I suppose he could've taken the 5 spellcaster levels and at least 1 level in Mindbender.

So he is either a Old Red Dragon [28 HD] with 10 levels in Mind-bender and [at least] +1 more caster class level, an Anicent Red Dragon with 1+ levels in Mindbender, or some mix in-between.

Still puts his level around 35-39. BAB of 33+, Breath weapon of 16-20d10. HP is probably between 470~690 depending on rolls/classes and ofc a CL of 15+

Do we think he's a more Order level challenge? Or a more Team Evil level challenge?

From what we have seen, he appears less powerful than we might have thought. We might expect the breath weapon of an older dragon to kill characters with smaller hit dice, but noone appears to have. Serini and her shapeshifting companion have worn two dragon breaths with appearently no healing (although Serini may have evaded the first).

Sorcerer spell, 8th level so available to any Ancient Red Dragon or lesser age with spellcaster levels...right? Plus could also choose/learn Cleric spells from Chaos, Evil and Fire domains?
- M

We know he has spellcaster levels don't we? From the mindbender prestige class.

[danielxcutter]

Well, all of Calder’s supernatural abilities and spells would have bounced right off of Xykon at least, though they’d probably work better on Redcloak and Oona. And Xykon has Stoneskin so he can reduce a lot of damage from Calder’s attacks. But Calder might have some other spells that would do actual damage to Xykon as well. Team Evil would handily win, but they’d expend a decent amount of resources doing so.

[Resileaf]

Eh, it's not really much different than the trend of "is this when Belkar permanently dies?" every single time he's in combat for the last what... 900 strips or so?

The best part is that when he does actually die, it will almost definitely look like a fakeout at first.

[The MunchKING]

Eh, it's not really much different than the trend of "is this when Belkar permanently dies?" every single time he's in combat for the last what... 900 strips or so?

Yeah, but the characters haven't gone out of their way to say (or an old man stopping the story to say) "this isn't the part where Belkar dies".

The fiends have said they aren't intending on saving V, and they can't go up there to do anything unless they are making deals. Belkar COULD die here, I don't think he will, but he could without contradicting anything we've been told. I think that's what makes it worse for me.

Imean, contextually, there's no reason for V to voice their issue and the fiends to negate it except to convey information to the audience. It serves no other narrative purpose. And further, they were quite precise that V assumed something was the case and they didn't say it, whereas they directly said they could nor possess V's body.

I think it's true that THEY won't take over her body, because that would be a violation of the contract they set forth. However I don't think they'll take responcibility if some OTHER spirit thing happens to find V's soulless body and takes over it for a bit.

That Quarr called the Spirit Being in advance and let them know when V would be soulless is something they'd be shocked, SHOCKED! I tell you, to hear.

We know he has spellcaster levels don't we? From the mindbender prestige class.

from the version I saw online it said + 1 level of an existing spellcasting class.

So if he didn't actually have a spell casting class it would be up to the GM whether dragons "knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer" counts as Sorcerer levels for the Mindbender spell progression.

[Liquor Box]

Well, all of Calder’s supernatural abilities and spells would have bounced right off of Xykon at least, though they’d probably work better on Redcloak and Oona. And Xykon has Stoneskin so he can reduce a lot of damage from Calder’s attacks. But Calder might have some other spells that would do actual damage to Xykon as well. Team Evil would handily win, but they’d expend a decent amount of resources doing so.

He'd probably get experience too, so get even stronger from it.

from the version I saw online it said + 1 level of an existing spellcasting class.

So if he didn't actually have a spell casting class it would be up to the GM whether dragons "knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer" counts as Sorcerer levels for the Mindbender spell progression.

Hmm, I must admit I assumed that knowing sorcerer spells meant that he counted as having levels of an existing class. He told us he's a mindbender, so do you think he would have needed sorcerer or wizard levels to access it?

[Peelee]

I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with Kish or if one of us isn't getting his argument.

If the fiends want V to stay with the party, they need to convince him that they can't make him turn on the party; that his biggest risk is absence, not betrayal. So they tell him they won't/can't possess him during when they gank his soul. That's the narrative purpose; set up the reason why V thinks it's reasonable to stay with the party while setting up the twist for him to be wrong.

Except that exact same setup could also be achieved by omitting those lines entirely.

[Kish]

No it couldn't. Vaarsuvius immediately thought the fiends were going to have their body do something. And if Rich had simply never written the possibility occurring to Vaarsuvius...well then there would be many people on the forum calling Vaarsuvius unaccountably stupid for not thinking of it (correctly, in my opinion).

But no one thinks it's surprising that Vaarsuvius is proceeding as if Lee saying it proves it's true. Not even me, much as I hope they're wrong to do so.

[Peelee]

No it couldn't. Vaarsuvius immediately thought the fiends were going to have their body do something. And if Rich had simply never written the possibility occurring to Vaarsuvius...well then there would be many people on the forum calling Vaarsuvius unaccountably stupid for not thinking of it

Sure, i can see that. Probably because i can also see Rich directly and explicitly spelling out in the comic that it can't happen and people on the Fforum clamoring that sure, it still can, because the fiends didn't say it under the exact specific circumstances that the forumite is willing to accept.

I don't find such arguments particularly compelling, of course.

[LuckyTheOrc]

Sure, i can see that. Probably because i can also see Rich directly and explicitly spelling out in the comic that it can't happen and people on the Fforum clamoring that sure, it still can, because the fiends didn't say it under the exact specific circumstances that the forumite is willing to accept.

I don't find such arguments particularly compelling, of course.

Point of Order: Rich never spelled it out. A villain did. A fiend did. A liar did. A trickster did. Rich did not.

Having one of the villains state a convenient claim as fact isn't the same as authorial statement.

[Nymrod]

Even someone who has taken a Vow of Peace is not required to let undead be. Calder is not a dragon, he is a vampire (dragon). The only choice he should have been given by Soon is to perhaps kill and resurrect him.

Vampiric is really a solid match for a red dragon. While charm and domination are superfluous, they will be vastly harder to resist than a spell (since they scale of the dragons HD, not their spell level), he gets resistance to cold (and electricity), fast healing and a score of immunities.
But he has far less Hit Points than a normal dragon. V should have just hit him with disintegrate.

[Walter Lawson]

Belkar took both pets up (when v lifts him up)
We haven't seen the lizard at all during the fight, what would hapen if it runs of into sunny's (main) sight?
There is a risk it could be charmed/dominated by Calder but if it would happen near the end of the battle, a surprise bite could turn the tide of battle? a nice crit bite attack to the neck?