OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread

[Alex Warlorn]

It's disturbing when protagonists treat a code of conduct and not murdering enemies who have laid down their arms as an inconvenience.

{scrubbed}

[Tzardok]

Even someone who has taken a Vow of Peace is not required to let undead be. Calder is not a dragon, he is a vampire (dragon). The only choice he should have been given by Soon is to perhaps kill and resurrect him.

Vampiric is really a solid match for a red dragon. While charm and domination are superfluous, they will be vastly harder to resist than a spell (since they scale of the dragons HD, not their spell level), he gets resistance to cold (and electricity), fast healing and a score of immunities.
But he has far less Hit Points than a normal dragon. V should have just hit him with disintegrate.

How exactly did you come to the conclusion that Calder is a vampire? Or in any other way undead?

[Provengreil]

So, a thought just occurred about everyone surviving the damage so far. If Calder's dragon levels allow entry into mindbender, and he took those class levels, would his dragon breath still get stronger? I know it's usually measured in hit dice, but there also usually aren't class levels involved.

[Liquor Box]

So, a thought just occurred about everyone surviving the damage so far. If Calder's dragon levels allow entry into mindbender, and he took those class levels, would his dragon breath still get stronger? I know it's usually measured in hit dice, but there also usually aren't class levels involved.

I don't think so - I think you just get what the class levels give (a few extra hps, and some spells and abilities)

That's why I think it's a good fit - Calder's breath weapon seems weaker than expected, but he has additional casting abilities.

[Laurentio III]

That "probably" is the sickest burn in whole page.

[Psychronia]

Hmm. So we learn that Calder was open to surrender once, but probably won't again. Also that Soon was the one who elected to spare him and his consciousness was unintentional.

I'm...not sure where this puts the two Scribbles ethically. Sparing a surrendering monster, even an evil dragon, is probably a good point on Soon's part; but also, he evidently didn't supervise Calder enough despite knowing what a definite risk he was.

I guess that means he trusted Sereni's capabilities, and her negligence is the driver of all this. It certainly wasn't malicious, but it's not like that undoes the harm done. On the other hand, Calder is a pretty blatantly evil and malicious dragon, so it's not like you could exactly let him roam free or anything. If killing isn't on the table and letting him go isn't on the table, I...think imprisonment or some manner of enslavement were always the only options? So I guess her single if major mistake was not regularly checking on that particular trap and thus never learning that the stasis was faulty and she's ethically in the clear?

I guess whoever helped her with that stasis magic-probably Dorukan-also has to bear a lot of responsibility. I doubt the final Gate will last to the end of the story, but if it does, Sereni ought to go around checking any stasis traps for monsters with high spell resistance. Though...It's not like she has anyone who could fix it around. What wizard even exists in the world whose capable of improving upon magic of this level?

[hroþila]

Point of Order: Rich never spelled it out. A villain did. A fiend did. A liar did. A trickster did. Rich did not.

Having one of the villains state a convenient claim as fact isn't the same as authorial statement.

The thing with Faustian bargains is you expect the devil to screw you over technicalities while still strictly adhering to the terms of the agreement. Having the devil straight up lie to your face about the terms kinda defeats the purpose

But sure, hypothetically speaking the archfiends could be lying

[Mic_128]

I think it's true that THEY won't take over her body, because that would be a violation of the contract they set forth. However I don't think they'll take responcibility if some OTHER spirit thing happens to find V's soulless body and takes over it for a bit.

Then that's not "shielded from all harm" at all, is it, if something else can just pop over and possess their body.

Point of Order: Rich never spelled it out. A villain did. A fiend did. A liar did. A trickster did. Rich did not.

Having one of the villains state a convenient claim as fact isn't the same as authorial statement.

By that logic the fiends can do whatever they want, whenever they want, with no limits.

They made a contract and have laid out the specifics: They get V's soul for the time based on the soul splice. They cannot use V's body. They will protect and keep their body safe. Putting another soul in V's body is in violation of the contract.

[The MunchKING]

Then that's not "shielded from all harm" at all, is it, if something else can just pop over and possess their body.

Not if the possessor nor anyone else has anyway of harming the body. Is getting up and moving around "harm"?

[Unoriginal]

Hmm. So we learn that Calder was open to surrender once, but probably won't again. Also that Soon was the one who elected to spare him and his consciousness was unintentional.

I'm...not sure where this puts the two Scribbles ethically. Sparing a surrendering monster, even an evil dragon, is probably a good point on Soon's part; but also, he evidently didn't supervise Calder enough despite knowing what a definite risk he was.

I guess that means he trusted Sereni's capabilities, and her negligence is the driver of all this. It certainly wasn't malicious, but it's not like that undoes the harm done. On the other hand, Calder is a pretty blatantly evil and malicious dragon, so it's not like you could exactly let him roam free or anything. If killing isn't on the table and letting him go isn't on the table, I...think imprisonment or some manner of enslavement were always the only options? So I guess her single if major mistake was not regularly checking on that particular trap and thus never learning that the stasis was faulty and she's ethically in the clear?

I guess whoever helped her with that stasis magic-probably Dorukan-also has to bear a lot of responsibility. I doubt the final Gate will last to the end of the story, but if it does, Sereni ought to go around checking any stasis traps for monsters with high spell resistance. Though...It's not like she has anyone who could fix it around. What wizard even exists in the world whose capable of improving upon magic of this level?

I have to point out that Spell Resistance can be lowered by the being who has it.

So if Calder surrendered, the Order of the Scribble discussed how to imprison him between themselves, then Dorukan made the magic circles to seal him...

Well, that means Calder was resisting imprisonment. Which is a violation of one's surrender.

Calder was just unlucky that him resisting worked on the part supposed to keep him uncounscious and not the part supposed to keep him unable to move.

It was negligent to not check, probably, but Calder could still have communicate telepathically with a fairly decent range, or at least done a mental attack, to signal he was actually conscious, after Dorukan finished the work and the Order was walking away.

So in other words, if he was conscious the whole time, Calder had to deliberately resist the spell AND not tell his captors the spell had failed.

This, to me, indicates that the Red Dragon was planning to break out as soon as the coast was clear... and then discovered he couldn't.

[Kish]

Even someone who has taken a Vow of Peace is not required to let undead be. Calder is not a dragon, he is a vampire (dragon). The only choice he should have been given by Soon is to perhaps kill and resurrect him.

Vampiric is really a solid match for a red dragon. While charm and domination are superfluous, they will be vastly harder to resist than a spell (since they scale of the dragons HD, not their spell level), he gets resistance to cold (and electricity), fast healing and a score of immunities.
But he has far less Hit Points than a normal dragon. V should have just hit him with disintegrate.

Huh?

Oh, Haley saying that all have Mind Blank because of being used to fighting vampires. That...does not actually say "the mind-controlling opponent I am addressing is a vampire."

[Mic_128]

Not if the possessor nor anyone else has anyway of harming the body. Is getting up and moving around "harm"?

I'd say letting a friend steal the car of a co-worker is harming that co-worker. Replace car with body, and yes.

[OvisCaedo]

I'm not sure if "safe from all harm" is actually part of their contractual obligations, though. They did it that once, but are they actually required to?

[Unoriginal]

Huh?

Oh, Haley saying that all have Mind Blank because of being used to fighting vampires. That...does not actually say "the mind-controlling opponent I am addressing is a vampire."

Same as when Durkon compared Malack's poison spell to his mother's cooking, it didn't mean that Malack was trying to recreate a meal Durkon was nostalgic for.

Though given Malack's rather peculiar tastes even for a vampire, him actually trying to cook a meal for Durkon would probably have been more harmful than the spell.

[KorvinStarmast]

Calder is not a dragon, he is a vampire (dragon).

???

How exactly did you come to the conclusion that Calder is a vampire? Or in any other way undead?

Good question. (But I think Kish may have solved that puzzler).

That "probably" is the sickest burn in whole page.

Yes, she slipped that in nicely.

What wizard even exists in the world whose capable of improving upon magic of this level?

Maybe Xykon. And he's not a wizard.

Well, that means Calder was resisting imprisonment. Which is a violation of one's surrender.
{snip}
This, to me, indicates that the Red Dragon was planning to break out as soon as the coast was clear... and then discovered he couldn't.

Nice post. And it fits with the discussion by EGG in the AD&D 1e material on how subdued dragons usually look for a way to get back at their subduers ...

[The MunchKING]

I'd say letting a friend steal the car of a co-worker is harming that co-worker. Replace car with body, and yes.

If the co worker wasn't going to use that car anyway for a while, then it's only harm because it's putting wear and tear on the car and they might break it by crashing it into something. So if the car is indestructible and doesn't run out of gas, it's not really harm. Well for the co-worker. If the friend kills a bunch of people by running over them in an indestructible car that would cause harm to them, but not your co-worker.


So in the metaphor stealing V's body is only really "harm" in the sense of V's bodily autonomy and she already sold that off to the fiends in the first place. But V's body being possessed by something else can still do a lot of damage while being immune to all harm.

I'm not sure if "safe from all harm" is actually part of their contractual obligations, though. They did it that once, but are they actually required to?

No, they say they're doing it for "Good customer service", which I admit was above and beyond what people expected back when V first sold her soul, although many did call the "didn't have to wait until she's dead" bit.

[danielxcutter]

Same as when Durkon compared Malack's poison spell to his mother's cooking, it didn't mean that Malack was trying to recreate a meal Durkon was nostalgic for.

Though given Malack's rather peculiar tastes even for a vampire, him actually trying to cook a meal for Durkon would probably have been more harmful than the spell.

Doesn't exactly hurt that dwarves literally get save bonuses against poison, tbh. Even before considering the Con modifier.

[Unoriginal]

Doesn't exactly hurt that dwarves literally get save bonuses against poison, tbh. Even before considering the Con modifier.

That was the joke.

[danielxcutter]

That was the joke.

Yes but it's still funny that Malack used literally the worst spell he could have on Durkon aside from a positive energy healing one.

[Mic_128]

If the co worker wasn't going to use that car anyway for a while, then it's only harm because it's putting wear and tear on the car and they might break it by crashing it into something. So if the car is indestructible and doesn't run out of gas, it's not really harm. Well for the co-worker. If the friend kills a bunch of people by running over them in an indestructible car that would cause harm to them, but not your co-worker.

So in the metaphor stealing V's body is only really "harm" in the sense of V's bodily autonomy and she already sold that off to the fiends in the first place. But V's body being possessed by something else can still do a lot of damage while being immune to all harm.

I'm trying really damn hard not to be condescending, but come freaking on. Do you honestly think Rich is going to randomly give Fiends/their allies, not only V's body to do whatever they want with, but also allow it to be indestructible at the same time? Like seriously? Seriously?

[Tubercular Ox]

So if he didn't actually have a spell casting class it would be up to the GM whether dragons "knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer" counts as Sorcerer levels for the Mindbender spell progression.

Draconomicon adds this tidbit:

A dragon that becomes a member of the sorcerer class adds any actual sorcerer levels it has to its effective sorcerer level to determine its spellcasting ability, but uses its actual sorcerer level and character level to determine its other class abilities.

That might throw Rich in favor of letting it happen.

[danielxcutter]

There are numerous cases of innate spellcasting monsters progressing it further with levels in their casting class and/or a prestige class across the edition, so yes they stack.

[No good @ names]

I think the dual eye beams was just a bad-ass art choice, and I whole-heartedly approve.

I for three, welcome our new red dragon overlord! I mean, yes, nice art Giant! I totally wasn’t dominated looking in Calder’s eyes…

[Elanfanforlife]

Yeah, there's pretty strong nightmare fuel in this Fate Worse than Death, a break of tone for this ultimately light-hearted comic. Had it been intentional, it would have cast Serini deep into Chaotic Evil territory.

Vaarsuvius is True Neutral after making a deal with devils to wipe out 25% of a species's population and an unknown amount of other creatures. While Vaarsuvius clearly regrets it now, Serini also regrets imprisoning creatures who didn't want to work for her. Based off of the alignment system we have seen so far, there is no way this would bring Serini even close to Chaotic Evil by itself.

[bunsen_h]

Finally, it's clear the dragon can't be reasoned with. He wants Serini to submit, but then claims in the next breath that he will reduce her bones to charcoal. He is clearly indecisive with what he wants, so the situation has gone full Fubar rather quickly.

He could "torture and kill [her] in spectacularly gruesome fashion", then reduce her bones to charcoal.

[The MunchKING]

I'm trying really damn hard not to be condescending, but come freaking on. Do you honestly think Rich is going to randomly give Fiends/their allies, not only V's body to do whatever they want with, but also allow it to be indestructible at the same time? Like seriously? Seriously?

I mean they've already SAID they've made the body indestructible, the rest is just whether or not someone can take over it.

[TheNecrocomicon]

To me, the current sort of sequence cements to me the spectrum of adventuring parties we've seen in the webcomic.

The OotS needs no introduction as the protagonists and are generally good in their actions and aims, forever balancing saving the world with saving and helping anyone they can along the way.

The Scribblers seem to have been the neutral-ish party, bent on a mission of world preservation however they saw fit, but not really bound by a lot of moral qualms while doing so -- such as paying a nasty (even more so than expected) indefinite servitude upon an obviously evil-behaving dragon like Calder, or preemptive crusades to remove perceived or real threats, or underhanded clan practices, etc.

Then we come to the more evil-aligned parties. The Linear Guild seemed largely "screw you, we do what we want" chaotic-evil, the Vector Legion are "we will rule a unified continent through hegemony" lawful-evil, and Team Evil are somewhere in the neutral-evil middle in the perpetual tug-of-war between Xykon and Redcloak, moderated by saner allies along the way like Oona and Greyview, the MitD (to the extent they can even be called Team Evil's ally anymore), Jirix, et al.

I still feel like whatever promised uber-threat the IFCC has coming will probably force the OotS and Team Evil to team up briefly to defeat it, before having their climactic final battle, but that's just my speculation and I have no real evidence for it, just an expectation that nothing before the end will go conventionally.

[Kish]

To me, the current sort of sequence cements to me the spectrum of adventuring parties we've seen in the webcomic.

The OotS needs no introduction as the protagonists and are generally good in their actions and aims, forever balancing saving the world with saving and helping anyone they can along the way.

The Scribblers seem to have been the neutral-ish party, bent on a mission of world preservation however they saw fit, but not really bound by a lot of moral qualms while doing so -- such as paying a nasty (even more so than expected) indefinite servitude upon an obviously evil-behaving dragon like Calder, or preemptive crusades to remove perceived or real threats, or underhanded clan practices, etc.

Interesting point.

[Unoriginal]

To me, the current sort of sequence cements to me the spectrum of adventuring parties we've seen in the webcomic.

The OotS needs no introduction as the protagonists and are generally good in their actions and aims, forever balancing saving the world with saving and helping anyone they can along the way.

The Scribblers seem to have been the neutral-ish party, bent on a mission of world preservation however they saw fit, but not really bound by a lot of moral qualms while doing so -- such as paying a nasty (even more so than expected) indefinite servitude upon an obviously evil-behaving dragon like Calder

The only two times the Order of the Stick (as a group) had to deal with defeated bad guys they didn't want to kill, they also resorted to indefinite imprisonment.

Samantha and her father were left tied up in a forest, unable to defend themselves. It was understood they'd break out eventually, but how long it'd take was none of the Order's concern and the two bandits could easily have been found by an Owlbear or other hungry creatures before they'd manage.

Meanwhile, for the Linear Guild, the OotS decided to stick them in antimagic cells with no defined end to their imprisonment.

I fail to see how it's better than what the Order of the Scribble wanted to do with Calder.

I still feel like whatever promised uber-threat the IFCC has coming will probably force the OotS and Team Evil to team up briefly to defeat it, before having their climactic final battle, but that's just my speculation and I have no real evidence for it, just an expectation that nothing before the end will go conventionally.

If anythreat can get the Order and the Team to work together, it's the Snarl themselves, IMO.

[Psychronia]

I have to point out that Spell Resistance can be lowered by the being who has it.

So if Calder surrendered, the Order of the Scribble discussed how to imprison him between themselves, then Dorukan made the magic circles to seal him...

Well, that means Calder was resisting imprisonment. Which is a violation of one's surrender.

Calder was just unlucky that him resisting worked on the part supposed to keep him uncounscious and not the part supposed to keep him unable to move.

It was negligent to not check, probably, but Calder could still have communicate telepathically with a fairly decent range, or at least done a mental attack, to signal he was actually conscious, after Dorukan finished the work and the Order was walking away.

So in other words, if he was conscious the whole time, Calder had to deliberately resist the spell AND not tell his captors the spell had failed.

This, to me, indicates that the Red Dragon was planning to break out as soon as the coast was clear... and then discovered he couldn't.

That's true. Though it could also be that there are regular saves against the spell that Calder has a chance to redo and he's simply too stubborn or proud to willingly do it after the fact.

We also don't actually know when Calder was sealed vs when he was imprisoned; maybe he had different terms of imprisonment before Sereni decided to add him to her defense. Even if the seal was immediately put on him after his surrender and never had to be undone during transport, presumably he could have contacted someone like you said when Sereni moved him to the dungeon.
...Well. I guess he could have just been angrily threatening her the whole time, which is how she knows Sunny going his way is bad. In which case, an increased mark of negligence on her part.

Even if I think it's fair game to resist even after surrender to people you don't trust, I'm not one to make excuses the evil red dragon either way. It's just a possibility.