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2024-02-04, 12:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
I think timing isn't that big of a deal; he had a few good rounds to buff up. It took the Order a while to realize something was amiss. They messed around in the shallows, they found the secret door, they started walking, and then realized and rush back.
Calder knew there were enemy forces coming. It's not ludicrous to think he decided to utilize the time to improve his action economy.Screaming defiance with the last breath
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2024-02-04, 12:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
Using wonky speech bubbles as the indicator, Calder wasn't released until Serini was actually present.
I do care about this, but Calder could have cast the "Ocular Polar Ray" spells decades ago, gotten their timers frozen, then called his attacks unnecessarily, like that one fighter with Power Attack in the thieves' guild scene. So it's a choice between Rich drawing something cool that doesn't follow the description of the spell, or Rich adding something extra to a cool scene that follows the rules so that it's more understandable to the audience. Rich doing more than he normally does either way.Last edited by Tubercular Ox; 2024-02-04 at 12:56 PM.
TinyMushroom drew my avatarSpoiler: A shaggy dog storyAn evil sorcerer in command of a dark cult is trying to unleash a god-killing abomination more real than the gods themselves. At his side, yellow eyes revealed a Haunter of the Dark. The evil sorcerer ordered it to kill.
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2024-02-04, 04:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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2024-02-04, 04:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Screaming defiance with the last breath
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2024-02-04, 10:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
I think the subdual comes from one of the tie-in materials, a calendar or some such, that apparently showed the Scribblers subduing Calder back in the day.
From my estimation of the Scribblers, I'm sure they entertained the idea of killing Calder but probably keeping him alive and useful to them was better, from a utilitarian perspective, than just killing him and being done with it. Sounds like Serini was down for just killing him, but the rest all have very sound reasonings for letting him live in their service for however long that lasted. Lirian and Soon have druid and paladin principles to work with; Dorukan would go "hey, a dragon, we can use him"; Kraagor would just be happy he bested a dragon with even more of a self-imposed challenge; even Girard would understandably be averse to just killing a dragon, out of (1) kinship and (2) Ranger possibilities.
And considering the Scribblers' big life project was sealing the rifts and building the gates and the protective systems around them, no doubt they figured an extremely powerful dragon would be a useful resource in that regard. Or even just as their servant somehow.
Considering that the panel where Calder's speech bubbles went to normal-shape was focused on Sunny, I'm pretty sure the release had to do with Sunny's anti-magic cone nullifying the arcane lines on the floor, rather than Serini's presence which just had coincidental timing.Last edited by TheNecrocomicon; 2024-02-04 at 11:16 PM.
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2024-02-05, 12:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
Would Protection From Evil free Sunny from Calder's control, at least temporarily? That would probably be of greater value than just getting Sunny to blink.
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2024-02-05, 02:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
Didn't someone say the Cone of Cold should have done some damage?
Removing a vulnerability is not the same as immunity.
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2024-02-05, 02:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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2024-02-05, 05:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
The action economy here doesn't make sense to me.
After the surprise round fire breath, we got:
Cleric girl, Durkon, Elan, V: Each cast one non-quickened spell, a standard action.
Roy: Throws sword twice. This is in two different panels, but seems to be a full attack, a full-round action.
Haley: Full attack with her bow (full-round action), provoking an AOO from the dragon.
Belkar: Throws one dagger, a standard action. It seems he used his move action to move away from the others.
Zombie halfling, mimic, beholder: No action or move action only.
Dragon: Casts two spells and breathes fire again. This is three standard actions, normally requiring three rounds. There was no indication that either spell was quickened.
So how does the dragon get three times as many actions as the other characters?
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2024-02-05, 05:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by Unoriginal; 2024-02-05 at 06:22 AM.
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2024-02-05, 07:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
Did Mimi just point to mimic Serini? But wouldn't a mimic be dead after taking that much damage?
Also, it doesn't look like Serini is fighting. She's just talking, although she seems to be drawing some of Calder's fire, in both senses of the word.
The Order's attacks (except V's spell) seem to be hitting. But that's one big pile of hit points to whittle away.This ... is my signature finishing move!
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2024-02-05, 09:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2024-02-05 at 09:19 AM.
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2024-02-05, 09:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
Didn't Serini say she had class levels? Or in some other way was the most powerful mimic on the force?
Hmmmm... Here she says Mimi is "Biggest", but not necessarily class levels or even high HP."Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman
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2024-02-05, 09:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
Yes, that's right. The point was that Serini coincidentally showing up one panel before Sunny's eye provided the release makes it difficult to believe that Calder got any free rounds to buff himself off panel.
A Returning weapon could only be thrown once, then the user would have to wait until next turn for it to return. This is a flawed explanation for Roy, because Greatswords can't be Returning weapons and Roy summons it instead of it returning, but I wonder if it follows similar timing.
She could have advanced HD. Rich already appears to be ignoring the rule that they can only mimic something approximately the same size, so she could be normally-Huge with 11-21 HD.
Edit: Mimi shut the door. Roy calls her, "The giant mimic."
How big do we think she is?Last edited by Tubercular Ox; 2024-02-05 at 10:05 AM.
TinyMushroom drew my avatarSpoiler: A shaggy dog storyAn evil sorcerer in command of a dark cult is trying to unleash a god-killing abomination more real than the gods themselves. At his side, yellow eyes revealed a Haunter of the Dark. The evil sorcerer ordered it to kill.
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2024-02-05, 11:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
On Calder. Pretty sure he’s just a Wyrm or Great Wyrm Red Dragon. Polar Ray coming from his eyes was just because it’s cool looking not because he has a fancy prestige class.
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2024-02-05, 12:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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2024-02-05, 12:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
I really like the detail that the polar ray went through Vaarsuvius and hit the wall behind them.
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2024-02-05, 03:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
I wasn't sure if it was certain/generally accepted that Serini's comment was accepted as level-based, and then I didn't know the specifics of that prestige class. But yes, I thought so.
We have seen all other metamagic castings declared as such, though, right? I think straight Rule of Cool.
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2024-02-05, 03:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
TinyMushroom drew my avatarSpoiler: A shaggy dog storyAn evil sorcerer in command of a dark cult is trying to unleash a god-killing abomination more real than the gods themselves. At his side, yellow eyes revealed a Haunter of the Dark. The evil sorcerer ordered it to kill.
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2024-02-05, 04:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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2024-02-05, 04:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
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2024-02-05, 06:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
Yes (I assume). 100% of metamagic has been declared. We have never seen an eye spell or an Ocular spell at all. Isn't there a recommendation to look for the simplest plausible explanation?
After all, I guess we don't even know that it was a Polar Ray spell. It might have been an additional (Su) ability grafted on to Calder because Calder took the Chilly CyclopsScott Summers alternate feat available to Stickverse Red Dragons with one broken horn.
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2024-02-06, 02:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
I think the argument is which explanation is the simplest and most plausible, right?
1. Without precedent, Rich decided to make a ray spell come from the eyes instead of the fingers, and be doubled/split, because it's cool.
2. Without precedent, Rich decided to not call out metamagic, because it's a unique type of metamagic where you cast the spell beforehand (which we haven't seen) and release it later. So the procedure would go {Ocular polar ray [cast to store], Ocular polar ray [cast to store], polar ray [cast to release]}
Explanation 2 suffers from a lot of stuff mentioned in this thread to make it less likely.
Explanation 1 suffers because it has to assume that coincidentally, the cool presentation that could've been anything (polar ray coming from the horn, the mouth, whatever) JUST HAPPENED to look exactly like a mechanical element of the sort that the comic is built on top of would be presented (coming from the eyes, two rays instead of one).
I don't think that explanation 1 is as obviously simpler or more plausible as you make it up to be.Screaming defiance with the last breath
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2024-02-06, 02:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
Was that a TWINNED Polar Ray?! We're talking about anywhere from 30D6 to 50D6 cold damage depending on the dragon's caster level. Wizards still using D4s for hit dice. V might be dead. 😨
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2024-02-06, 03:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
Explanation 3 is that Calder was stuck in stasis for so long he forgot he had to use metamagic to cast Ocular polar ray and the one individual who could correct his mistake is the one targeted by the spell.
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2024-02-06, 06:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
The nature of the ray is in discussion - one side believing it to be a standard polar ray with a cool presentation, the other to be metamagic.
If you support the metamagic interpretation, ocular spell seems like the best candidate. Split ray would also make more sense than twin spell, from a cost-benefit analysis. Both split ray and ocular spell would be easier to explain than twin spell without significantly upping previous estimations of Calder's age / amount of class levels.
Either way, if indeed there were two rays, we're talking 32d6 at the very least (calder casts as a sorcerer, would only achieve 8th level spells at CL 16)Screaming defiance with the last breath
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2024-02-06, 06:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
Even if that was just a standard Polar Ray that is quite a bit of damage, tbh. As dragons are innate sorcerers, that damage starts at 16d6 which is an average of 56 points. That'd easily be a quarter or more health of someone like Roy or Durkon, let alone Vaarsuvius.
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2024-02-06, 07:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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2024-02-06, 08:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
I mean yeah, that's why they've put up Mass Resist Fire and gotten healing. That second one is going to be doing a lot less damage, due to Durkon having a high enough caster level for Mass Resist Fire to reduce fire damage by 30. Serini also probably has a pretty deep health pool due to sheer amount of levels even with age penalties to Constitution. In contrast, Polar Ray is doing cold damage, which V wouldn't have protected against, and also is a ray spell that doesn't allow a saving throw to reduce damage.
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2024-02-06, 09:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread
Unless I'm mistaken, no member of the party took 2 breath, apart from (maybe) mimi. Serini completely evaded the first blast, Belkar apparently evaded both unscathed, and no other party member were in both blast radiuses
But yeah, the first blast put some major outchage on Elan, Roy and the clerics. Fighting a red dragon is no fun.
(OK, it's actually pretty fun.
But, y'know, for the players.
NOT for the characters ^^)Last edited by Kardwill; 2024-02-06 at 09:05 AM.