OOTS #1297 - The Discussion Thread

[Tubercular Ox]

Yes (I assume). 100% of metamagic has been declared. We have never seen an eye spell or an Ocular spell at all. Isn't there a recommendation to look for the simplest plausible explanation?

After all, I guess we don't even know that it was a Polar Ray spell. It might have been an additional (Su) ability grafted on to Calder because Calder took the Chilly Cyclops_{Scott Summers} alternate feat available to Stickverse Red Dragons with one broken horn.

- M

Firstly, your ability to create explanations sillier than anything that's on the table demonstrates that you know what a silly explanation looks like. This means you have the power to take silly explanations off the table without being forced into the arms of some other explanation. You choose not to use it.

Secondly, Rich has a habit of drawing rays from the finger. Assuming he gave up on that habit without impetus is like throwing a ball into the air, seeing it not come down, and assuming gravity failed that day instead of the ball having some quality that keeps it in the air.

Thirdly, we are discussing one panel published just a few days ago. Surely we are still in discovery? Trying to force a conclusion now is a bigger leap than I'm comfortable making.

Fourthly, what H_H_F_F said.

[Blue Dragon]

The action economy here doesn't make sense to me.

After the surprise round fire breath, we got:
Cleric girl, Durkon, Elan, V: Each cast one non-quickened spell, a standard action.
Roy: Throws sword twice. This is in two different panels, but seems to be a full attack, a full-round action.
Haley: Full attack with her bow (full-round action), provoking an AOO from the dragon.
Belkar: Throws one dagger, a standard action. It seems he used his move action to move away from the others.
Zombie halfling, mimic, beholder: No action or move action only.
Dragon: Casts two spells and breathes fire again. This is three standard actions, normally requiring three rounds. There was no indication that either spell was quickened.

So how does the dragon get three times as many actions as the other characters?

This is a comic action scene, not a RPG fighting round.

[Kardwill]

This is a comic action scene, not a RPG fighting round.

Yeah. Showing Calder taking an action, then waiting for the 10 other characters to act, would make a very static scene. (It's already very static when you actually play it. Watching it would be worse)

[Tubercular Ox]

Throwing a two-handed weapon is a full round action, so even if pwokking it back is quick or free, I think sword tosses are our metronome here. Roy does it twice, so at least two rounds.

Elan also gets two rounds, one with the Mass Cure Moderate Wounds, and next with the song he gets going.

Calder does get to do a lot. If the first breath weapon is the surprise round, then Dominate Person is round one, Polar Ray is round two, and the second breath weapon is round three.

He whacks Haley with his tail, but my hunch is that's not a standard action for some reason. Does Haley have some feature that prevents attacks of opportunity when she performs a ranged attack inside a monster's reach?

So obviously the preference is going to be to show Calder's actions, for reasons mentioned above, but he is not as far ahead as he first appears.

[danielxcutter]

The tail smack actually might have been done as a standard action; dragons can fly, yes, but their maneuverability isn't great (especially at older ages) so he's probably using his move action to stay in the air. And dragon tail attacks have a 1.5x Str modifier, so they might very well do more damage than a bite. I don't think they can just make a single tail attack by RAW, but 3.5e RAW gets very silly in multiple ways so I wouldn't blame the Giant for ignoring that.

[Mordar]

I think the argument is which explanation is the simplest and most plausible, right?

1. Without precedent, Rich decided to make a ray spell come from the eyes instead of the fingers, and be doubled/split, because it's cool.

2. Without precedent, Rich decided to not call out metamagic, because it's a unique type of metamagic where you cast the spell beforehand (which we haven't seen) and release it later. So the procedure would go {Ocular polar ray [cast to store], Ocular polar ray [cast to store], polar ray [cast to release]}

Explanation 2 suffers from a lot of stuff mentioned in this thread to make it less likely.

Explanation 1 suffers because it has to assume that coincidentally, the cool presentation that could've been anything (polar ray coming from the horn, the mouth, whatever) JUST HAPPENED to look exactly like a mechanical element of the sort that the comic is built on top of would be presented (coming from the eyes, two rays instead of one).

I don't think that explanation 1 is as obviously simpler or more plausible as you make it up to be.

I freely admit personal experience bias. As someone who until this thread had never heard of the Ocular Spell option, is aware that Rich has specifically stated rules are subject to the needs of the story, and has spent too much free time reading comics, there wasn't a moment where I read #1297, paused at that panel and thought "That's odd. A spell is shooting from his eyes. That doesn't fit the established bounds of expectation for this particular media without us being shown a modification of some sort"...I thought "Cool, he shot the spell from his eyes".

So yes, now that I know Ocular Spell feat exists...I think it is a coincidence.

Learning about Ocular Spell encourages me to believe this more strongly, since now I know it bumps the spell slot requirement up 2 levels (so now a 10th level spell) giving us a caster level 19. Totally possible, I think...but is it likely? And if so, is Calder likely to use the one 10th level slot for this spell? And if it is doubled by Ocular Spell that means 2 10th level slots. And if it is Split and Ocular then it is a 12th level slot (I think? +2 level for each feat). Am I reading all of that correctly?

Again, high level arcane casters in the 3.0/3.5 world are far from my specialty. So maybe that lack of familiarity impugns my position, but I am going to hold that Rule of Cool seems significantly more likely than either 1 10th level slot burned, 2 10th level spell slots burned, or a level 12 spell slot burned.

The biggest counterpoint I see for myself is based on review of the panels for this conversation, and it is that the two rays remain distinct all the way through V. Had I been doing this comic (assuming all of the skills I don't have) and had I meant it to be exactly what I laid out, I would have had the two eye rays converge, exactly like Cyclops' optic blasts when he isn't visored.

Query: The rays punching through him...is there any meta effect that would allow rays to "cleave"?

Confirmation: If this is and Ocular Spell cast polar ray, two Ocular Spell cast Polar Rays, or a Split Ray Polar Ray, V is eating at least 19d6/38d6, right? Or would it be 20d6/40d6? Assumes both hit because...well, both hit.

Firstly, your ability to create explanations sillier than anything that's on the table demonstrates that you know what a silly explanation looks like. This means you have the power to take silly explanations off the table without being forced into the arms of some other explanation. You choose not to use it.

Secondly, Rich has a habit of drawing rays from the finger. Assuming he gave up on that habit without impetus is like throwing a ball into the air, seeing it not come down, and assuming gravity failed that day instead of the ball having some quality that keeps it in the air.

Thirdly, we are discussing one panel published just a few days ago. Surely we are still in discovery? Trying to force a conclusion now is a bigger leap than I'm comfortable making.

Fourthly, what H_H_F_F said.

We are 100% in the fun part of the conversation - trying to figure out what we just saw, so I agree we are in discovery and I am just putting down my expectation. I would like people to agree with me and be right (meaning I'm right) just to validate that guess, but certainly am not going to force anyone.

I think there is an impetus. It looks cool and it fits in a fractional panel thus avoiding either needing it to be a replication of panel one pointing the other direction (or a broader splash) so it saves narrative space. To me, this is more assuming the ball landed on the roof or got caught by someone else, not an alteration of the physics of the universe.

- M

[The MunchKING]

So yes, now that I know Ocular Spell feat exists...I think it is a coincidence.

Learning about Ocular Spell encourages me to believe this more strongly, since now I know it bumps the spell slot requirement up 2 levels (so now a 10th level spell) giving us a caster level 19.

Character Level 21, IIRC. You need a special Epic feat to even GET 10th level slots.


This isn't Pathfinder 2ed.

[Rollin]

Explanation 3 is that Calder was stuck in stasis for so long he forgot he had to use metamagic to cast Ocular polar ray and the one individual who could correct his mistake is the one targeted by the spell.

Rather than being Watsonian or Doylist, this explanation seems "Lestradian".

[H_H_F_F]

I freely admit personal experience bias. As someone who until this thread had never heard of the Ocular Spell option, is aware that Rich has specifically stated rules are subject to the needs of the story, and has spent too much free time reading comics, there wasn't a moment where I read #1297, paused at that panel and thought "That's odd. A spell is shooting from his eyes. That doesn't fit the established bounds of expectation for this particular media without us being shown a modification of some sort"...I thought "Cool, he shot the spell from his eyes".

So yes, now that I know Ocular Spell feat exists...I think it is a coincidence.

Learning about Ocular Spell encourages me to believe this more strongly, since now I know it bumps the spell slot requirement up 2 levels (so now a 10th level spell) giving us a caster level 19. Totally possible, I think...but is it likely? And if so, is Calder likely to use the one 10th level slot for this spell? And if it is doubled by Ocular Spell that means 2 10th level slots. And if it is Split and Ocular then it is a 12th level slot (I think? +2 level for each feat). Am I reading all of that correctly?

Again, high level arcane casters in the 3.0/3.5 world are far from my specialty. So maybe that lack of familiarity impugns my position, but I am going to hold that Rule of Cool seems significantly more likely than either 1 10th level slot burned, 2 10th level spell slots burned, or a level 12 spell slot burned.

The biggest counterpoint I see for myself is based on review of the panels for this conversation, and it is that the two rays remain distinct all the way through V. Had I been doing this comic (assuming all of the skills I don't have) and had I meant it to be exactly what I laid out, I would have had the two eye rays converge, exactly like Cyclops' optic blasts when he isn't visored.

Query: The rays punching through him...is there any meta effect that would allow rays to "cleave"?

Confirmation: If this is and Ocular Spell cast polar ray, two Ocular Spell cast Polar Rays, or a Split Ray Polar Ray, V is eating at least 19d6/38d6, right? Or would it be 20d6/40d6? Assumes both hit because...well, both hit.



We are 100% in the fun part of the conversation - trying to figure out what we just saw, so I agree we are in discovery and I am just putting down my expectation. I would like people to agree with me and be right (meaning I'm right) just to validate that guess, but certainly am not going to force anyone.

I think there is an impetus. It looks cool and it fits in a fractional panel thus avoiding either needing it to be a replication of panel one pointing the other direction (or a broader splash) so it saves narrative space. To me, this is more assuming the ball landed on the roof or got caught by someone else, not an alteration of the physics of the universe.

- M

I mentioned this earlier: I think one of the downsides of the metamagic theory is that it forces us to assume either significantly higher level (twin spell, unmitigated ocular spell) or specific build choices (mitigated ocular spell).

So, mechanically, you really don't have to assume 10th level slots here - or even a higher level than the minimal level Calder would need to be to cast polar ray

Spoiler: mechanical analysis

Show

8th level spell by itself means we're dealing with an old dragon with at least 5 class levels that advance his casting (25 HD+), a very old dragon with at least 3 such levels (24 HD+), an ancient dragon with at least one such level (24 HD+), or a wyrm or older dragon (24 HD+)

Except the first option (which is the highest level one), all these options allow for a feat to be taken after having achieved polar ray, without needing to take any more levels than the minimal amount necessary to cast polar ray.

Taking practical metamgic (ocular spell) at any point in the build would reduce the metamagic cost to +1. Taking arcane thesis (polar ray) as the last feat (meaning, after having gotten polar ray) would get that to a 0 increase.

Now, there are other, better ways to achieve this, but they seem either too convoluted / cheesy for them to be a likely explanation, given Rich's distaste for mechanical deep-dives, or require more level investment / higher HD.

Do I think that's necessarily exactly what's going on here? No. Do I think the level increase presents issues, whether or not it's mitigated? Yeah.

Do I think that "it would require some intentional build choices by Calder" makes my case fall apart? Not really.

[bunsen_h]

Rather than being Watsonian or Doylist, this explanation seems "Lestradian".

Well, the comic has played with some similar concepts before. The first incident was early-days and can't be taken seriously, and then the second one didn't really allow retroactive correction.

[Envyus]

Feat, technically. The mind control is from the fancy prestige class.

I assume that was just regular Enchantment magic via something like still spell and telepathy magic.

[derfenrirwolv]

They really should have gotten him to fight the lich for/with them. All they would have to do is join a dragon cult, and how awesome would that be?

[The MunchKING]

Less Awesome than making a dragon join YOUR Cult. Where's a Lamb when you need one?

[H_H_F_F]

I assume that was just regular Enchantment magic via something like still spell and telepathy magic.

Telepathy is super not trivial to achieve with a spell for a non willing subject. Additionally, you'd need silent spell on top of still spell. You'd need two feats, and the best way I can think of to do it would be getting domain access to the mind domain.

The alternative - that the dragon described as a bit of a mindbender is a bit of a mindbender - seems more likely.

[danielxcutter]

Admittedly, I don't think it'd be too hard for a dragon of Calder's age. But Mindbender does fit the situation as well quite handily.

[Tubercular Ox]

I freely admit personal experience bias. As someone who until this thread had never heard of the Ocular Spell option, is aware that Rich has specifically stated rules are subject to the needs of the story, and has spent too much free time reading comics, there wasn't a moment where I read #1297, paused at that panel and thought "That's odd. A spell is shooting from his eyes. That doesn't fit the established bounds of expectation for this particular media without us being shown a modification of some sort"...I thought "Cool, he shot the spell from his eyes".

I don't want to accidentally imply that one must know the rules in order to enjoy the comic, that's obviously not the case. But if your reaction to an argument centered on the rules is going to be, "I don't know the rules and I don't care to learn," then it feels like you're trying to shut down the conversation.

Everything that's happened recently has had rewards for people who like the rules: Calder hypnotizing Sunny while frozen, Elan casting a spell he's never cast before, V trying to exploit a weakness Calder doesn't have anymore. All of those are awesome. And then there's a whole bunch of stuff to please people who like the rules that people who don't like the rules wouldn't even know to care about, like Calder hovering in place or the analyzable action economy.

Polar Ray is the glaring exception of the past few strips, and if you're going to argue it doesn't matter that it's a glaring exception, then you're back to arguing that the ball floats because gravity failed.

I'm not saying Ocular Spell is the answer. I'm saying proving that Polar Ray followed no rules requires just as much positive evidence as proving that a particular rule was followed, because that would be unique among ray spells and unique among other events of the past two or three strips. It is not a safe default.

[Provengreil]

Throwing a two-handed weapon is a full round action, so even if pwokking it back is quick or free, I think sword tosses are our metronome here. Roy does it twice, so at least two rounds.

Elan also gets two rounds, one with the Mass Cure Moderate Wounds, and next with the song he gets going.

Calder does get to do a lot. If the first breath weapon is the surprise round, then Dominate Person is round one, Polar Ray is round two, and the second breath weapon is round three.

He whacks Haley with his tail, but my hunch is that's not a standard action for some reason. Does Haley have some feature that prevents attacks of opportunity when she performs a ranged attack inside a monster's reach?

So obviously the preference is going to be to show Calder's actions, for reasons mentioned above, but he is not as far ahead as he first appears.

Also, most of the damage going into Calder is simple HP damage: not very narratively exciting unless the whole point of the fight is a slow grind to victory. We can assume it's continuing just off panel.

[Mordar]

They really should have gotten him to fight the lich for/with them. All they would have to do is join a dragon cult, and how awesome would that be?

I was soooo thinking this when I was doing the math, if you will, on Calder's effective levels. The question I hit was "Would Roy become a willing Calder slave if Calder had said 'I'll kill the lich and goblin for you if you become my willing slave'?" No tricks version - Calder jumps Team Evil and either Calder dies (Roy is off the hook) or Calder wins and Roy enters servitude.

I don't want to accidentally imply that one must know the rules in order to enjoy the comic, that's obviously not the case. But if your reaction to an argument centered on the rules is going to be, "I don't know the rules and I don't care to learn," then it feels like you're trying to shut down the conversation.

Not at all. To reiterate, I am not a 3.0/3.5 expert in ultra high level arcane magic rules. I have played and DMed a reasonable amount of 3.0 and 3.5. I have played and GMed an enormous amount of other RPGs over 40 years of gaming. As you will trivially see in my response above I acknowledged my shortcoming in this area and then went and read the available rules. Based on the reading of those rules my position has been reinforced for me.

Everything that's happened recently has had rewards for people who like the rules: Calder hypnotizing Sunny while frozen, Elan casting a spell he's never cast before, V trying to exploit a weakness Calder doesn't have anymore. All of those are awesome. And then there's a whole bunch of stuff to please people who like the rules that people who don't like the rules wouldn't even know to care about, like Calder hovering in place or the analyzable action economy.

Polar Ray is the glaring exception of the past few strips, and if you're going to argue it doesn't matter that it's a glaring exception, then you're back to arguing that the ball floats because gravity failed.

I'm not saying Ocular Spell is the answer. I'm saying proving that Polar Ray followed no rules requires just as much positive evidence as proving that a particular rule was followed, because that would be unique among ray spells and unique among other events of the past two or three strips. It is not a safe default.

This comic attracted me because it had the fun of rules references and easter eggs and nods aplenty. The discussions on levels, builds, and the huge meta-story of commentary on alignment and D&D cosmology all hit great notes for me.

Fixating on this one topic, however, and hinging on what to my understanding is a particularly obscure feat from what was definitely an obscure sourcebook (yes, I had Lords of Madness, actual hardback copy...doesn't mean it was terribly useful) and then thinking that discounting it as the likely solution (which you allow, though I can't tell if you believe) is akin to saying there are no operable rules in this universe. Accepting that the second Dragon spellcaster we've seen in the main comic must be bound by the same casting rules as the humanoids we've seen cast spells is reasonable, in my opinion, but equally reasonable to assume that they are not de facto required to do so in what is really a flavor-variation only.

It isn't that Polar Ray followed no rules, by the way. It is that it seems it broke one rule. I have capitulated breaking that one rule might have been intended to reflect Ocular Spell, and it might even have been intended to depict either two castings of Polar Ray enhanced by the Ocular Spell *or* Ocular Spell and Split Ray. This may have been a deep dive intending to show us that by golly Calder could have had a good shot at taking down TE by itself if only the Order hadn't gotten in the way of Serini's plan...after all, Calder is [really old maybe Ancient] Red Dragon with Epic feats and enhanced spell casting abilities. Especially if TE is down even 10% efficacy by having gone through the rest of the dungeon. Or, it could be, that the OotS DM flexed a rule just a bit to allow for a cool moment (that also spares space in the visual presentation) as has probably been done literally millions of times in the history of table top RPGs...but I wouldn't know about that because I don't know the rules and don't care to learn. If I did, though, I might also know about Rule Zero. But I don't.

Aside: Since you brought up gravity and normal expectations related to it, I assume there must be a rules-specific solution to how Calder is able to hover. Did Calder cast levitate or fly? Perhaps has taken the Hover feat? Isn't this a far more fundamental question than how a spell effect was depicted?

In large part, this feels to me like a true expert being unable to suspend even minimal disbelief saying "But the base configuration of that personnel vehicle is equipped with 16.2mm armor plating, and at a range of greater than 250m a shot fired from that weapon with a standard 1500 grain round isn't going to be able to punch more than 12.7mm so no way it hit, penetrated the crew compartment and killed the mentor right after he said he loved the hero like a son!".

Again, though, I admit I could be wrong and Calder could be an Epic spellcaster in an Ancient Red Dragon form with the Hover feat, and the Order is going to regret not letting him eat Team Evil and then willingly becoming Calderservants.

- M

[HorizonWalker]

I would like to point out something fairly vital to the whole contract situation V's got with the Fiends:

There is no written contract. The deal was a straightforward verbal agreement laid out in a scene where we can reasonably assume we did, in fact, see everything that got said.

Incidentally, if you go back and read that page, you'll note another interesting piece of information: Quarr is an Imp, a variety of Devil. He is not a being of Pure Evil, but rather, of Evil and Law. Devils are beings of Law, just as much as Modrons and Archons, and they cannot go back on their word any more than Modrons can. Fun little tidbit I hadn't noticed until I went back and checked, which supports, but is not strictly necessary for, the main thrust of my argument:

The deal is a verbal agreement. You're not allowed to lie about written contracts either, that's definitely still fraud, but there's a greater chance of getting away with it, because there is a formal written record of what was, technically, agreed to. A verbal agreement, however, holds up far less well if you're going to actively lie to the other party about it. This does raise the question of why Lee would assure V that they wouldn't put another soul in V's body while V was in Hell, and I think I have an answer:

Lee is twisting the knife. The way the Fiends talk to V is very, very tinged with a "customer service" cadence that helps to remind Vaarsuvius that they agreed to this, that this is, ultimately, Vaarsuvius' fault*. The Fiends didn't make V do anything, they just sat back and let V do all that useful work on their own initiative. And given that Lee is a Devil and a being of Law and Evil, being cruel for the sake of being cruel isn't exactly inconsistent with their characterization.



*Important note: Vaarsuvius agreed to this deal under duress and after a great deal of carefully-calculated emotional manipulation to make Vaarsuvius want to do this. It is only technically true that the Fiends didn't make V do anything- they didn't put a gun to V's head, they just waited for someone else to do that and then offer some carefully-chosen "friendly advice." Vaarsuvius still had to be a particular sort of person for it to be possible to manipulate them into doing that, but they were, quite explicitly, manipulated. Culpability can be complicated in cases like these, and all I'm willing to commit to is "Lee probably thinks it will hurt Vaarsuvius more to be told, implicitly, that this situation is really V's fault and responsibility." Even that I'm not completely sure about- in the vernacular of another corner of the internet, Lee might've just been saying words recreationally.

[LuckyTheOrc]

I would like to point out something fairly vital to the whole contract situation V's got with the Fiends:

There is no written contract. The deal was a straightforward verbal agreement laid out in a scene where we can reasonably assume we did, in fact, see everything that got said.[/URL]


The deal is a verbal agreement. You're not allowed to lie about written contracts either, that's definitely still fraud, but there's a greater chance of getting away with it, because there is a formal written record of what was, technically, agreed to. A verbal agreement, however, holds up far less well if you're going to actively lie to the other party about it. This does raise the question of why Lee would assure V that they wouldn't put another soul in V's body while V was in Hell..

I threw out a theory on that several pages ago, but I'll kick it up again here too: because otherwise V wouldn't stay with the party.

The terms of the deal specified nothing about who was allowed to do what with V's body while it was un-ensouled, but if V thought it could be puppeted against their friends they might not stay with the party because they'd be too much of a risk. If V thought the only risk was their absence, then they'll stay with the party because worst case - no harm would be done, just no help.

So if the fiends want V to stay with the party, they need to convince the elf of it whether or not it's true.

[Envyus]

I just assume the simplest version of things barring more advanced things being stated as the case.

I don’t think Calder is anything more than a Dragon of advanced age.

[Riftwolf]

Does this strip, 1297, tell us this?
How?

Ah yes sorry the two thoughts were entirely unrelated. Another thread had people saying "Temporal Stasis doesn't work like that" to my guess Calder was conscious while frozen. Which, if you think about it, is a terrible imprisonment.

The IFCC stuff was a guess that was absolutely baseless

[KorvinStarmast]

Ah yes sorry the two thoughts were entirely unrelated.

My confused condition is now removed.

[Tzaot]

I just registered on the forum to say that I absolutely adore Ladder-Girl / Mimi.

I hope she stays around for a long time, or has different cameos. :)

[HorizonWalker]

I threw out a theory on that several pages ago, but I'll kick it up again here too: because otherwise V wouldn't stay with the party.

The terms of the deal specified nothing about who was allowed to do what with V's body while it was un-ensouled, but if V thought it could be puppeted against their friends they might not stay with the party because they'd be too much of a risk. If V thought the only risk was their absence, then they'll stay with the party because worst case - no harm would be done, just no help.

So if the fiends want V to stay with the party, they need to convince the elf of it whether or not it's true.

I'm aware of the theory you advanced, and I was in fact responding to it with my answer to that question. I do not think your theory is correct; the deal said nothing about what could be done to V's body, and because Vaarsuvius did not agree to let the Fiends have their body for any length of time, then the Fiends don't get it. I think it's pretty reasonable to argue that, in this context where they can only intervene where technically invited to do so, Fiends are not allowed to put different souls in a mortal's body without that mortal's permission, and in order to take advantage of any hypothetical 'third party' loophole, a third party who possesses V's body is going to have to actually be a third party who are not working at the instigation of the IFCC.

I think we can trust the Fiends when they say that, no, they genuinely aren't allowed to use V's body for anything, because that was not one of the terms of the agreement. And I think we can trust them when they say that, partly because, again, lying about the terms of your verbal agreement to the other party means you don't meaningfully have a verbal agreement, and partly because I think it makes perfect sense for them to pretend they're being perfectly reasonable good-faith actors, since that is 1) their characterization so far, and 2) an excellent way to twist the knife while dealing with Vaarsuvius.

And, well... At a certain point, we have to accept that the characters in a story know what they're talking about when they say stuff. Even when it's devils talking- after all, devils being unable or unwilling to say things that are outright not true is a very common trope throughout fiction and folklore, and I see no evidence that OOTS is bucking that particular trope.

[brian 333]

... Fiends are not allowed to put different souls in a mortal's body without that mortal's permission,...

Possession does not have to be voluntary. Demons have a whole thing with that, unless movies like The Exorcist have lead me astray.

[HorizonWalker]

I don't believe that the "possessed unwillingly by a demon" trope and the "I've signed an ill-advised contract with The Devil" trope tend to show up in the same stories. Nonetheless, if the Fiends were allowed to put souls in any mortal's body without permission, they likely wouldn't be screwing around with this contract stuff. They'd be doing that instead; it'd be way easier.

In the meantime, the Fiends' specific consideration in that contract is quite explicit: they each get to hold onto V's soul for a specific period of time. They may have mislead V about when they'd lay claim, but laying claim to V's soul for the specified time periods is, ultimately, the only thing they legally get out of that contract. They don't get to tack on additional riders after the fact.

[LadyEowyn]

Regarding V’s soul, the key question is: how does Rich keep it narratively interesting? Everyone (not just us the readers, but characters like Roy) are already expecting V to be taken out of the action again. Rich tends to avoid doing something that plays out in the obvious and predictable way. So what’s the twist? I tend to agree that it won’t be putting another soul in V’s body, but it also won’t be just the same thing we saw before. Is there something else they can do with V’s soul while they have possession of it?

[danielxcutter]

Ah yes sorry the two thoughts were entirely unrelated. Another thread had people saying "Temporal Stasis doesn't work like that" to my guess Calder was conscious while frozen. Which, if you think about it, is a terrible imprisonment.

Yeah I’m willing to cut Serini some slack given how it was entirely unintended and Calder being the Evil bastard he is, but even so that’s still a horrible fate to inflict on anyone, even by accident and even on someone like Calder.

[Throknor]

Aside: Since you brought up gravity and normal expectations related to it, I assume there must be a rules-specific solution to how Calder is able to hover. Did Calder cast levitate or fly? Perhaps has taken the Hover feat? Isn't this a far more fundamental question than how a spell effect was depicted?

He's almost certainly flying just like Blackwing and the Empress of Blood. The downward thrusts just happen between panels. Looking again at 1297 the wings do, in fact, move between panels one and five. The only reason the dragon skeleton's wings made noise was the foreshadowing aspect. They did flap up and down every panel while Roy and Xykon were chatting but that may just have been since the focus was on them for a lot of panels.