Why PDFs?!

[JusticeZero]

Been looking at getting another game system, I've been interested in trying out a new minimalist system.
They all come packaged as either a physical book (and I've lost too many of those over various moves and such already) or .PDF files.

PDF files are basically unreadable without an annoying amount of effort. I have to zoom them in and scroll them this way and that to read them. Whyyyy can we not get game systems in reflowable epub files? I can get my textbooks that way, I read all my books that way, augh...

[Mastikator]

It's just an industry standard. But I get your frustration, pdfs suck.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Formatting, probably. You can print directly from a pdf because it's the exact page layout, but making an epub would mean an entirely separate round of layout and proofing.

[Cluedrew]

Role-playing games tend to make more use of pictures and fancy formatting and I think pdfs are better at handling those.

[truemane]

As others have said, I would think the cost and time and effort of converting a rulebook to epub format would be very high. It would be a logistical nightmare trying to lay out the text and tables and charts in such a way that it would on all possible devices, with all possible settings. I read epubs on my phone, my Kobo, and my tablet. And that works because it's all just text.

Whereas PDF's all look roughly the same no matter the device or the application (both for weal and woe).

Although, that being said, I share your frustration with trying to read PDF's. I love using them as a supplement to the actual book, but on their own, they're a pain.

[LibraryOgre]

Role-playing games tend to make more use of pictures and fancy formatting and I think pdfs are better at handling those.

Partially this, yeah. If you want a sidebar or boxed-text, PDFs handle those better. They also tend to do better with tables.

And, well, you can lay out a book for print and use pretty much the same thing for PDF, or vice versa.

[King of Nowhere]

i like pdf. never got into the various other formats, and don't understand what problems others have with it.

maybe i'm old generation and pdf is the one most behaving like a normal paper book?

[JusticeZero]

I'm old generation. I need my text size a little bit larger these days. Epub is older than PDF, as I recall. It's closer to a readme file like I would read back when I was dealing with MS-DOS whatsits. My textbook has tables imbedded in it, they're saved as pictures.
I've been playing mostly things with an SRD I can access on the web for the past few years, but they sometimes overformat the base page.

[Maat Mons]

Tables saved as pictures? But then you can't find things in them with Ctrl+F!

[LibraryOgre]

I'm old generation. I need my text size a little bit larger these days. Epub is older than PDF, as I recall. It's closer to a readme file like I would read back when I was dealing with MS-DOS whatsits. My textbook has tables imbedded in it, they're saved as pictures.
I've been playing mostly things with an SRD I can access on the web for the past few years, but they sometimes overformat the base page.

For age of format, it depends. EPub is only from 2007; it's predecessor is from 1999. PDFs, OTOH, first came out in 1992. EPub does draw on the same dynamic text scaling that you see in TrueType fonts from the late 80s, though.

[ngilop]

Been looking at getting another game system, I've been interested in trying out a new minimalist system.
They all come packaged as either a physical book (and I've lost too many of those over various moves and such already) or .PDF files.

PDF files are basically unreadable without an annoying amount of effort. I have to zoom them in and scroll them this way and that to read them. Whyyyy can we not get game systems in reflowable epub files? I can get my textbooks that way, I read all my books that way, augh...

You and I have much, much different experiences with PDFs.

Every single one I have is highly readable and i have over 2 thousand. Maybe you just need a bigger screen? a screen that isn't borken?

Like i honestly have no idea what is going on that you find them un readable.. are you trying to open them not in a PDF reader like Adobe Acrobat, Sumatra, or Kofax?

[JusticeZero]

Like i honestly have no idea what is going on that you find them un readable..

I have some luck at home... where I have a specifically portrait monitor. But I'm not gaming at home...

If I'm out and about, I have some sort of laptop. There's the title bar of the reader, then whatever toolbar is on the top, then the tools widget bar, and maybe another important bar or three... then the page... then whatever toolbars are on the bottom, and the bar on the bottom of Windows itself... half the screen is already gone because every imaginable specialty widget has to be put in horizontal bars on top or bottom of the reader. The text is organized in vertical bars, and I have to move my narrow window of viewable area around the page. If I zoom out enough to see a big block of text, the not monitor optimized font is pixelized and blurry.

It's exhausting.

[Gnoman]

I have some luck at home... where I have a specifically portrait monitor. But I'm not gaming at home...

If I'm out and about, I have some sort of laptop. There's the title bar of the reader, then whatever toolbar is on the top, then the tools widget bar, and maybe another important bar or three... then the page... then whatever toolbars are on the bottom, and the bar on the bottom of Windows itself... half the screen is already gone because every imaginable specialty widget has to be put in horizontal bars on top or bottom of the reader. The text is organized in vertical bars, and I have to move my narrow window of viewable area around the page. If I zoom out enough to see a big block of text, the not monitor optimized font is pixelized and blurry.

It's exhausting.

Why do you have so many toolbars? My PDF reader has none of that.

[Anonymouswizard]

Why do you have so many toolbars? My PDF reader has none of that.

Seconding this, and I even reverted to an older layout because an update changed the background colour to white. Still got at minimum two third of the screen, maybe three quarters, with most toolbars at the side.

Not that some games don't also have .epub or .mobi versions, IIRC Evil Hat does them for major releases. It's just less common, at least partially due to the loss of formatting.

But yes, PDFs are annoying when you have bad eyes. After glasses stopped working but before I moved to contacts I was almost entirely physical for that exact reason.

[RedWarlock]

I have some luck at home... where I have a specifically portrait monitor. But I'm not gaming at home...

If I'm out and about, I have some sort of laptop. There's the title bar of the reader, then whatever toolbar is on the top, then the tools widget bar, and maybe another important bar or three... then the page... then whatever toolbars are on the bottom, and the bar on the bottom of Windows itself... half the screen is already gone because every imaginable specialty widget has to be put in horizontal bars on top or bottom of the reader. The text is organized in vertical bars, and I have to move my narrow window of viewable area around the page. If I zoom out enough to see a big block of text, the not monitor optimized font is pixelized and blurry.

It's exhausting.

Yeah, that's more a problem of whatever reader you're using. Usually you can reconfigure the UI to be more minimal, or there may be a full-screen view.

[Jay R]

Take the pdf to a print shop, and come home with a booklet.

[Anonymouswizard]

Take the pdf to a print shop, and come home with a booklet.

I'd recommend checking the terms before doing any of this. Some companies and creators are fine with you doing this, others aren't. Evil Hat even includes a note in their books that yes making a copy at a print shop is 100% okay and this is express permission.

[Trafalgar]

I'd recommend checking the terms before doing any of this. Some companies and creators are fine with you doing this, others aren't. Evil Hat even includes a note in their books that yes making a copy at a print shop is 100% okay and this is express permission.

If you legally bought the pdf, you can print it for personal use. Just like you can copy a book you own without permission from the writer or publisher.

What you can't do is print 100 copies and sell them.

[Leon]

But yes, PDFs are annoying when you have bad eyes. After glasses stopped working but before I moved to contacts I was almost entirely physical for that exact reason.

If you have trouble reading a pdf your going to have the same troublewith any other digital format

[JusticeZero]

If you have trouble reading a pdf your going to have the same troublewith any other digital format

With an ebook format, I can zoom in and the text reflows to fit the new text to page size. I can make the words big and easy to read and not have to slide around on the page like I was exploring a roguelike dungeon with an Etch-a-Sketch.

[Xervous]

Most web browsers have built in functionality for viewing PDFs. At a glance even the accused Edge has minimal bloat by default and offers a full screen view bereft of toolbars.

[Easy e]

Because they are cheap and easy to produce, and ubiquitous enough where everyone has the software to read them.

[Maat Mons]

Have you tried running Magnifier in lens view? I played around with it a bit after reading this, and it seems pretty workable. The other view modes just seem annoying though.

Edit: If you're not familiar, hold the Windows key and press the + key to turn Magnifier on. Hold both Ctrl and Alt and press the L key to change to lens mode. Hold the Windows key and press Esc to turn Magnifier off.

[ngilop]

So, it sounds less of a "PDF" issue and more of user issue with the user having every conceivable window and toolbar open as possible.


Sounds like my friend, years, ago that was compkaong about a FPSish we played and how he couldn't see what was happening due to the UI, being in the way.. he had every ability bar open, every separate chat box open, both maps open, and a few other random screens that took up 3/4 of the screen. A simple un selecting those windows fixed his complaints.

[Melayl]

I read mine on a tablet or my phone through Acrobat. I can zoom in ridiculously close, up to one letter filling the screen, and easily navigate the entire pdf...

[Bohandas]

Role-playing games tend to make more use of pictures and fancy formatting and I think pdfs are better at handling those.

That was my initial thought as well, but then they said their textbooks were in epub and worked, and textbooks have a lot of illustrations and diagrams too

[Jason]

Play with the toolbar settings and you can remove most of them. And there are options for viewing the width of the page or the whole page that can make it easier.

I always buy hard copies of the main rulebooks of systems because I find the hardcopy books easier to deal with while running a game, but I find that running an adventure from a .pdf on a laptop isn't all that tough and is generally cheaper than buying hardcopies, though I still print off maps and the like for quick reference.

[JusticeZero]

I was reading a game on a PDF yesterday in fullscreen on a laptop. It still was miserable, I wanted to tweak the font.

[Anxe]

That was my initial thought as well, but then they said their textbooks were in epub and worked, and textbooks have a lot of illustrations and diagrams too

Its a different standard. Textbooks are used by public universities so they have to follow the ADA. They have to come up with versions that are more accessible to blind students. Additionally textbooks cost $300+. An epub is possible for RPGs, but it's not worth the expense since it's not legally required.

I agree that pdfs are a pain to read on my pocket Kindle. But it's got a tiny 3"x5" screen that's not as responsive as other modern tech. Every other device, even my smaller smartphone, is easy to read pdfs because I can zoom in and out as needed or change the viewing frame by turning my phone sideways.

[SpyOne]

If you legally bought the pdf, you can print it for personal use. Just like you can copy a book you own without permission from the writer or publisher.

What you can't do is print 100 copies and sell them.

I believe, technically, you cannot use two copies at once.
So you can (and I have) photocopy an entire book to mark it with highlighter and rearrange the pages and put the original in storage. But if you sell your original you either give your copy to the buyer or destroy it.
Which works fine for me: I generally print the PDF once and use the printed copy, while the electronic copy is stored.

But in the "everything's legal if there's no cops around" vein passing a few pages around to folks at the same table probably isn't going to get the attention of the owners of the copyright you are infringing and probably won't offend them even if they find out. But know that defending their copyright might mean that they have to sue you even if they aren't mad about what you did.